 
Perfectgentleman
Member
Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 7020
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Monday, June 16, 2008 - 4:47 pm: |    |
Yep, suburbia is dead, we are all leaving our homes and heading back to Detroit. What nonsense. |
Wazootyman
Member
Username: Wazootyman
Post Number: 359
Registered: 02-2006
| | Posted on Monday, June 16, 2008 - 4:47 pm: | |
To move where? To a handful of communities in which one can be completely served by public transportation?
Half of the US population lives in the 'burbs. |
Rax
Member
Username: Rax
Post Number: 421
Registered: 11-2007
| | Posted on Monday, June 16, 2008 - 4:49 pm: | |
PG, I live in Detroit and I know my friends, relatives, and colleagues in the suburbs aren't moving down here in a million years. |
Spacemonkey
Member
Username: Spacemonkey
Post Number: 649
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Monday, June 16, 2008 - 4:50 pm: | |
Why is it the suburbanites' responsibility to help a city of people who refuse to help themselves? That's where the clucking and disgust comes in.
If Detroit city residents made their home a place where outsiders (suburbanites) might want to move into --- a place with decent schools and decent city services -- then maybe outsiders would consider moving there and want to help out. |
Detroitnerd
Member
Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 2487
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Monday, June 16, 2008 - 4:52 pm: | |
1) They don't have children.
2) They love old architecture.
3) They love one of the close-knit neighborhood scenes in Corktown, Hamtramck, Mexicantown, Woodbridge, the university area, etc.
4) They want to be able to walk home from the bar
5) They have a limited amount of money, but are willing to put sweat equity into their piece of real estate
6) They don't mind poor city services because they don't ever use them
7) They prefer to walk and bike to their city job
8) They are put off by suburban anomie
9) They have enough money to put their children through private school
But, hey, those are just a handful of reasons. Once the light rail goes in, there will be several hundred million more reasons, as businesses and residents will see great value in locating along the light rail line.
And, finally, as a person who spent time in New York City in the 1980s, I remember it as a place that would make Joe Westchester County shit blood. Truly, Joe Westchester County never would ever move into New York. Guess who did? His kids -- in droves. I never would have believed it in 1985, but in 2000, New York City breached 8 million people. And it has shitty schools. Really shitty schools. So there. |
Detroitrise
Member
Username: Detroitrise
Post Number: 2400
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Monday, June 16, 2008 - 4:52 pm: | |
I don't understand why people think a city with some of the poorest populance in the country can miraculously improve their neighborhoods, schools and city services without money. |
Rax
Member
Username: Rax
Post Number: 422
Registered: 11-2007
| | Posted on Monday, June 16, 2008 - 5:01 pm: | |
quote:9) They have enough money to put their children through private school
I think they'll spring for the gas on the Honda and keep their kid in Utica Public Schools.
quote:6) They don't mind poor city services because they don't ever use them.
Wow, just wow.
quote:4) They want to be able to walk home from the bar
That priority tends to lose a little steam with the over 30 crowd that puts their kids through private school, has a deep love of architecure, etc, etc.
But hey, when that light rail system rolling in 2021. They'll all be sorry! |
Detroitnerd
Member
Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 2488
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Monday, June 16, 2008 - 5:03 pm: | |
"Why is it the suburbanites' responsibility to help a city of people who refuse to help themselves?"
Haha. That is a cruel joke. Regionally speaking, Detroit's solution to poverty has been to urge people with enough money to leave the city and move to Southfield, or Oak Park, or Dearborn. That's it. This region stubbornly holds that the city is doomed to failure, and the only way to succeed is to leave. Then, they point to a city teeming with poverty, pollution, disease and crime, and demand unctuously "how dare they not help themselves!" Very neat for those saying it. |
Detroitnerd
Member
Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 2489
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Monday, June 16, 2008 - 5:08 pm: | |
Rax: No doubt the changes that are coming will make you feel deeply uncomfortable. If it's any comfort, why don't you do some traveling? You'll notice that different parts of the world set up their cities differently than here. It may even broaden your mind a little.  |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 3201
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Monday, June 16, 2008 - 5:11 pm: | |
Some of you are really failing to see the big picture... Surprising I know... but if gas prices stay high, people will be forced to adjust to it by doing such things as living near transit lines! It's not a matter of cutting back in other areas just to feed your oil addiction. If you keep using the oil without cutting your consumption, the prices will continue to rise!
So one way or another your asses will be back to living in Detroit; either out of necessity for a more dense living environment, or because you pay so much for gas that you can't afford to live anywhere else. |
Living_in_the_d
Member
Username: Living_in_the_d
Post Number: 266
Registered: 01-2008
| | Posted on Monday, June 16, 2008 - 5:11 pm: | |
Yeah, This premise could really well be what will happen, When You factor in all the variables and leave emotion out of it. |
Detroitrise
Member
Username: Detroitrise
Post Number: 2402
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Monday, June 16, 2008 - 5:15 pm: | |
Transit is also an issue.
The bus service we have now is mediocre at best, and many people here with huge families that do extensive traveling cannot rely on it. |
Perfectgentleman
Member
Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 7025
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Monday, June 16, 2008 - 6:06 pm: | |
quote:PG, I live in Detroit and I know my friends, relatives, and colleagues in the suburbs aren't moving down here in a million years.
I was being sarcastic. |
Jmarx
Member
Username: Jmarx
Post Number: 68
Registered: 01-2005
| | Posted on Monday, June 16, 2008 - 6:29 pm: | |
I admittedly just breezed through most of the posts, but I'm surprised that no one has pointed out that this is already happening in certain suburbs. That is, there are suburb-suburbs (Warren, Livonia, etc) and there are urban-suburbs (Royal Oak, Birmingham, lesser extent Plymouth, Northville). I personally think that these communities might expand/grow and become the magnet for "walkable communities" for suburbanites that aren't ready to take the plunge back to Detroit proper. Of course, it does beg the question: How would any of these communities that are surrounded by big-lot homes really expand beyond their small city centers.
Having that said, I think Detroit is very well positioned for a revival - it's just takes time. |
Parkguy
Member
Username: Parkguy
Post Number: 280
Registered: 04-2007
| | Posted on Monday, June 16, 2008 - 8:38 pm: | |
I'm constantly amazed at the lack of historical perspective that so many people have. It was only a generation ago that Detroit had THE BEST schools (I knew suburban families who paid tuition to send their kids to Cass Tech), and had services that were unmatched anywhere. There were many factors that led to the exodus, including high taxes and a trend toward suburban sprawl. That started long before the '67 riots. But we now have an entire generation that hates Detroit with a venom and a passion that I just can't understand. (OK, if you don't want to live in the city, fine. Why the intense anger?) Did it come from learning the attitudes of parents while sitting around the dinner table? Who knows. But, that generation is lost as far as building the population of the city is concerned. They will never move into the city limits. Their kids... that's a different story. I teach high school in the suburbs, and I can tell you that there is a large percentage of my students who long for urban life. And, they are often the brightest, and end up with successful careers in other cities. If Detroit can offer these kids the life they want, they'll take us up on it. That's the challenge. But it won't change overnight. It took more than a generation to abandon whole swaths of the city, and it will take a long time to rebuild it. Good strategies will help: things like transit and other urban amenities.
As for schools and services-- the suburban experience shows us that you get what you demand and expect. When school board members understand that they get elected to provide excellence, they'll provide it. When the Principal and teachers of the school know that parents will be active in demanding excellence, then you'll get excellence. When city council members understand that they are expected to govern well, then they will. These "are a given" in the affluent suburb in which I teach, regardless of the economic class or ethnic background or the neighborhood of the parents I meet.
Things fell apart very quickly (in only a generation), and things can turn around just as quickly. Five years-- it will just be starting. Twenty years-- things will be very different. Sprawl will not continue much longer. It is not sustainable. If you want to understand the facts about this, read "The End of Oil" or "The World is Flat." If you want to understand the WHY of it, read Derrida or Foucault. Or Jane Jacobs. Detroit will be here when the exurbs have returned to corn fields. |
Detroitnerd
Member
Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 2490
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Monday, June 16, 2008 - 8:46 pm: | |
Thanks, Parkguy. |
Detroitrise
Member
Username: Detroitrise
Post Number: 2403
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Monday, June 16, 2008 - 8:50 pm: | |
Yeah, sometimes we all need to wear a pair of rosy glasses to tune out what's happening in our lives. |
Mwilbert
Member
Username: Mwilbert
Post Number: 262
Registered: 11-2007
| | Posted on Monday, June 16, 2008 - 8:51 pm: | |
Suburbia isn't dead. I'm not sure it is even dying. But adjustments are going to be made.
Jmarx is correct. Even before the recent gas price increases, people all over were looking for more urban forms of living, and the post-boomer generations generally don't seem to be nearly as interested in living in suburbs as their parents were, and exurbs seem even less preferred. The main reason most people ever moved out into the exurban areas was cost, and as the costs of sprawling rise, those locations are losing their main advantage.
That doesn't have to mean people or employers moving into Detroit proper, but it probably does mean Royal Oak, Ferndale, Birmingham, etc. It may well mean Detroit at some point, but who knows when. That is where policies making the city more attractive economically might help.
Jmarx is also correct that some town's layouts may make it difficult for them to increase their density or walkability, and those towns are likely to have problems. On the other hand, it shouldn't be impossible to retrofit denser development into some of the towns that don't have it now.
In any case, I think we will be seeing some new settlement patterns over the next decade or two, and it will be interesting to see where people land. I also believe the US in general has way more retail space than it is going to need going forward, and we will see lots of abandonment or repurposing of suburban retail areas, and I am looking forward to seeing how that space ends up getting used. |
Frankg
Member
Username: Frankg
Post Number: 296
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Monday, June 16, 2008 - 8:56 pm: | |
I love my walkable community. I recently retired from my day job and have a part-time job teaching at OU. So I moved to downtown Rochester (otherwise I was going to move back into Detroit, if it weren't for my part-time job). It is only 5.2 miles to OU, so I can bike it or if I do drive, a full tank of gas will last me two months. I am .15 miles from the library. I am even closer to Paint Creek Trail. I live right across the street from my gym. My credit union is a block away so I can walk there and get cash without having to pay ATM fees. I can walk to the farmer's market on Saturdays. There is a fudge shop within walking distance. A Dairy Queen right on the corner. I can walk for a haircut, walk to the hardware store, the post office, and Hungry Howies. I am only 2 blocks away from the Obama headquarters in Rochester. It is an 8-minute walk to my Toastmaster's meeting on Thursday nights. Even shorter to yoga. I have a 2-br apartment for $690/month, heat included. I use my second bedroom for an office. Oh, and if that wasn't enough, I don't even have to plug a clock in the wall because there are church bells to tell me what time it is. And when there is a big storm I am close enough to the storm warning sirens that I can hear them. I can't imagine life being any better than this and I wouldn't trade my life for any one who lives in one of the bigger houses in the Rochester Hills area without even a sidewalk. I just wish there was a bus that would do the trip to OU a few times a day, but there are no buses in Rochester.
(Message edited by frankg on June 16, 2008)
(Message edited by frankg on June 16, 2008) |
Parkguy
Member
Username: Parkguy
Post Number: 281
Registered: 04-2007
| | Posted on Monday, June 16, 2008 - 9:29 pm: | |
I have a pet theory that the suburbs that will thrive are the ones that were there before sprawl, and by that I mean the TOWNS that existed before sprawl. They existed at that time because it made sense that a town would grow at that place. Examples: Northville, Plymouth, Wayne, Dearborn, Wyandotte, Romulus, Birmingham, Royal Oak, Romeo, Utica the village), Farmington, etc. Rochester fits this pattern. I'm not talking about the sprawl BETWEEN those town, just the towns themselves. The inner-ring suburbs make lots of sense, too. Cars aren't going away, but the patterns of development will change. |
Sean_of_detroit
Member
Username: Sean_of_detroit
Post Number: 779
Registered: 03-2008
| | Posted on Monday, June 16, 2008 - 10:24 pm: | |
Detroitnerd...
I was going to say your post #2487 was my favorite post on DetroitYES, but then I read Parkguy's post #280. I think you guys really both get what is going to happen around here.
I see it too.
The inner suburbs will not be first choice for people moving from them. Many of them will start to be hated as Detroit once was (and in many cases still is). They will go up in crime and blight will be a common problem, school quality will also come down, other problems will be taxes, transportation, and others
When I say inner suburbs, I'm kind of also talking about certain areas of Detroit. Some of those once great neighborhoods will never come back without a miracle (but miracles do happen). This is all assuming that we will continue to lose population. If for some reason we do not, or even gain population, it may be different. Neither Detroit, nor it's suburbs will be big enough for everyone. Both will have rich areas though. The ones who will lose will probably be the poor, because lets face it, no one really cares about them. They will be pushed to the undesirable areas, just like now. I'm open for ideas on how to stop this, but this is what usually happens.
Detroit's image has already changed so much in the past ten years, I am flabbergasted that you guys don't see it. The inner-suburbanites are moving to the exurbs because they are convinced those inner suburbs are going "down hill". They are right, they are. Property values are down, crime and blight are up. Their kids are choosing to not live in those overpopulated areas that their parents are clinging to. Does this not all sound familiar?
Announcer: "Step right up and see the amazing Sprawl Monster, it repeats history right before your very eyes, but yet half of you wont even see it."
Child: "Grandpa, I can see it! Oh it's horrible..."
Grandpa: "I don't see a thing, I want my ten cents back!"
This IS what is happening right now. I don't think one needs rose colored glasses to see it. The whole thing is honestly kind of morbid and sickening to me. That is just me though.
I say we do this... now that everyone in the burbs is starting to be convinced that the criminals from Detroit have moved out into their own suburbs, we convince them that Detroit has had a reduction in criminals... and show that by reducing crime and fixing blight! Lets show them the current Detroiters care (because they do), and that they are trying to make it better for more people to come and live here?
Hey, I know it's not a new concept, but what do you guys think? To much smoke and mirrors? Maybe a little, but it isn't really, the people here do care more than it seems sometimes. They just are overshadowed by those few really horrible cases, and the regular small ones.
Or....
Maybe you have some better ideas? I am always open to suggestions and new ideas. So I'm all ears, what are you guys doing to change things? Because I know you wouldn't even think about being uncaring hypocrites that just sit around on a message board moaning, complaining, and (expletive)ing just to hear yourselves talk.
So you don't think even a fraction of those people (we couldn't handle them all even if we tried) would move back to Detroit no matter how great it becomes (or could become)?
Read Parkguy's, and Detroitnerd's above posts I mentioned. Then tell me why Detroit can not rise from the ashes. Especially if we can eliminate number one off of Detroitnerd's list.
Relaunching the roaring twenties (Detroit 2.0) in T Minus 3, 2, 1.... we got this!
Lets blast off Detroit!
And NO, that was not a gun reference.
Edited for grammar.
(Message edited by sean_of_detroit on June 16, 2008) |
Living_in_the_d
Member
Username: Living_in_the_d
Post Number: 268
Registered: 01-2008
| | Posted on Monday, June 16, 2008 - 10:32 pm: | |
Yeah, Well Said Gentlemen. |
Frankg
Member
Username: Frankg
Post Number: 299
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Monday, June 16, 2008 - 10:40 pm: | |
Sean, I see what you are talking about, the constant moving away from the city center to the inner suburbs, then the outer suburbs, and finally, the exurbs.
I actually traced my family from 1857 living in the St. Joseph's neighborhood (Eastern Market area). My great-great grandfather was a blacksmith at Gratiot and Russel. His family moved around a few times in the general area, as far as Mack and Meldrum (this is further out from the city center, and was actually the suburbs back in 1890). His son lived and raised his family near Grand Blvd. and Mack, even further out. His son lived on Baldwin and Forest, then moved to Wilshire, a few blocks from Gratiot. His final move was to Fraser.
On the other side of my family, my great-grandfather lived on Antietem near St. Jospeph's (Eastern Market area). My grandfather lived in an apartment at Gratiot and Mack when he first got married, then moved to a house on Crane two blocks from Gratiot. Then he moved to Kilbourne Street a few houses away from Gratiot. His last move was to Centerline.
In both of these cases, each move was further from the city center, usually into what was considered the suburbs at the time. This has been going on in our family for 150 years! |
Perfectgentleman
Member
Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 7034
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Monday, June 16, 2008 - 10:45 pm: | |
Another thread on DY where many posters claim that the relationship of the suburbs to the city is an either/or proposition and only one or the other can thrive while the other suffers. The fact is there are many large cities that have a vibrant inner city and thriving suburbs.
The key is economic opportunity. The current management in Detroit and Lansing have failed to make any meaningful reforms to improve the business and labor climate so we don't have that.
The folks in the suburbs (like me) would love to see Detroit thrive, although most of us have no interest in living there. I just don't prefer urban environments. Young people do like urban environments more although when they have kids they may change their view.
And no, higher gas prices in and of itself will not drive high numbers of people back into Detroit, you can make other adjustments to offset the extra expense without leaving the suburbs as others have mentioned. |
Novine
Member
Username: Novine
Post Number: 566
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Monday, June 16, 2008 - 11:12 pm: | |
"As for schools and services-- the suburban experience shows us that you get what you demand and expect. When school board members understand that they get elected to provide excellence, they'll provide it. When the Principal and teachers of the school know that parents will be active in demanding excellence, then you'll get excellence. When city council members understand that they are expected to govern well, then they will. These "are a given" in the affluent suburb in which I teach, regardless of the economic class or ethnic background or the neighborhood of the parents I meet."
This is a good point. A generation ago, school districts like Walled Lake and South Lyon were to be avoided. Novi and Northville had decent schools but they've greatly improved in reputation. As people moved out from the Southfields and Livonias to the South Lyons and Walled Lakes, they demanded better schools and sometimes put their money behind their demands. Now those districts don't have the stigma attached to them that they once did. Detroit's educational system is a disaster. But change can come if there's enough of a demand for it. |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 4520
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 12:28 am: | |
Well, one can pretend that mass suburbanization is "inevitable". Or you can look reality in the face, and realize that a sunny, juvenile belief in a completely automobile-dependent lifestyle will run your region into the ground. |
Crawford
Member
Username: Crawford
Post Number: 261
Registered: 10-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 12:55 am: | |
IMO, the decline of the sprawlburbs will not necessarily lead to a revitalization of Detroit.
Remember that the vast majority of Detroit city limits consists of sprawl. Granted, it is denser postwar sprawl, but most of the city is oriented towards the automobile.
While most of the city is semi-walkable (putting aside issues of safety and horrible sidewalk maintenance), there are currently few truly pedestrian-friendly neighborhoods. |
Mwilbert
Member
Username: Mwilbert
Post Number: 264
Registered: 11-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 1:21 am: | |
"IMO, the decline of the sprawlburbs will not necessarily lead to a revitalization of Detroit."
Completely true. Detroit is certainly not the only alternative. However, lots of the neighborhoods were once pedestrian-friendly, unlike many of the suburbs, and could be again.
I expect much of the city is going to end up essentially abandoned (that's more of an observation than a prediction, I guess) but since the city overall still has over 6000 people/sq mi, I expect the areas that remain inhabited will end up being reasonably dense. If I ran the city I would institute policies to encourage people to leave the emptier areas and concentrate in the ones that are nearer the main transportation corridors, and then concentrate service delivery in those areas. If eventually the city runs out of room in pedestrian-friendly areas, there is plenty of room to build new ones. |
Rax
Member
Username: Rax
Post Number: 424
Registered: 11-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 8:26 am: | |
quote:I was being sarcastic.
I know, I was just letting you know that I actually live in Detroit, and wouldn't expect anyone else to ever move here because their gas costs an extra $50 bucks a week. |
Rax
Member
Username: Rax
Post Number: 425
Registered: 11-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 8:32 am: | |
quote:Well, one can pretend that mass suburbanization is "inevitable". Or you can look reality in the face, and realize that a sunny, juvenile belief in a completely automobile-dependent lifestyle will run your region into the ground.
When Detroit is the hub of said region, mass suburbanization is the answer. The only juvenile belief is that you know what the fuck is going on here while living in DC. |
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