 
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 3202
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 8:36 am: |    |
quote:IMO, the decline of the sprawlburbs will not necessarily lead to a revitalization of Detroit.
Maybe, but if the decline of the sprawlburbs does not produce a bump in the city then metro Detroit will lose a lot more people than it already has. The city is the logical point of consolidation/urbanization because it can/will host the non-auto oriented transit hubs for the region. They aren't gonna build the region's train station in Royal Oak or Birmingham. That would not make sense. |
Higgs1634
Member
Username: Higgs1634
Post Number: 524
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 9:13 am: | |
quote:They aren't gonna build the region's train station in Royal Oak or Birmingham. That would not make sense.
Why not? It makes perfect sense if the Big Beaver corridor is where the jobs are.
Until there is massive and wholesale leadership change in Detroit, about the only thing that will happen around here is that places like Troy, B'ham, R.O., Auburn Hills, Farmington, Novi..etc, will grow and get more dense. They'll keep building pseudo downtown/"urban living" centers with "lofts" and work/live spaces to satisfy those that want to live that way while Detroit languishes.
Why? Because Detroit offers nothing, but demands everything. Want to open a business? Spend a year getting even the most mundane permits and untangling red tape. Want to renovate that space for your new business? Good luck, hopefully your tools, equipment and plumbing are around long enough to get the job done. Let us not forget a huge tax burden for poor services. The list goes on. The long and short of it is that the path of least resistance (and towards the greatest chance for success) leads right out of the CoD. Until that changes, nothing will change. |
El_jimbo
Member
Username: El_jimbo
Post Number: 702
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 9:53 am: | |
The problem with the Big Beaver corridor and the rest of the suburbs is that they are not designed in a way that would be transit friendly. Not enough density. To much of going from nowhere to nowhere.
What happens to that suburban office park with its sea of parking when transit doesn't work getting there and the company can no longer attract the talent it wants because the employees don't want to pay to drive to the location?
Also, the tax burden thing is something that can be overcome. Every major move downtown has come with tax breaks for the company to move. Why would this change in the future? |
Spacemonkey
Member
Username: Spacemonkey
Post Number: 656
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 10:05 am: | |
I like suburbia. |
Higgs1634
Member
Username: Higgs1634
Post Number: 526
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 10:15 am: | |
I'm not advocating sprawl over urban density, I'm just stating the fact that here, in Metro Detroit, those who can, choose the lesser of two evils. They choose sprawl-ville over Detroit. Those who don't like those choices, leave. |
Rax
Member
Username: Rax
Post Number: 427
Registered: 11-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 10:19 am: | |
We have a winner! Good post Higgs. |
El_jimbo
Member
Username: El_jimbo
Post Number: 703
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 10:19 am: | |
If that is the case Higgs, then Lowell might as well shut down the board because this city and the region have no hope left. If we were failing under the previous circumstances with cheap fuel and now it won't succeed in the future with higher fuel than why the hell are any of us wasting our time on here talking about possible turnarounds or doing anything to try and help this area. We might as well just close up shop and leave now. |
Rax
Member
Username: Rax
Post Number: 428
Registered: 11-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 10:21 am: | |
Um, yeah. That's a rational response. Blame Lowell now. |
Detroitrise
Member
Username: Detroitrise
Post Number: 2411
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 10:29 am: | |
Rax, I just wanted to get your opinion on this.
Scenario:
Let say you were a middle class suburbanite that lives in Troy and has a family of 4 kids and a wife (or husband). The school they attend has an average or above average score in test taking. Your neighborhood is clean, quiet, and the police, ambulance, and fire department responds when you call in little or no time. You're only seconds from Oakland, Somerset, and Universal mall with additional Wal-Marts and Targets only walking distance from your home. You commute into downtown everyday, but it's only a 20 minute commute on I-75 to the LaSalle bank branch in the Guardian Building when there's no construction going on.
Now, let's say gas reached $8 and you had to make a change in the way you did things.
Would you give up all of that other stuff just to live in the city? Or would you simply re-loacte your job to the headquarters in Troy, so it's virtually only 5 minutes tops from your home, while, you can keep all of the other things you've grown to love? |
Rax
Member
Username: Rax
Post Number: 432
Registered: 11-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 10:36 am: | |
I either look for a job near my house or start taking the light rail that hasn't been built, or car pooling, or riding my Vespa down Woodward through Highland Park to my large downtown office. There's a shitload of things you can do outside of moving your wife and kids down to MLK and 2nd. |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 3203
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 10:39 am: | |
quote:Why not? It makes perfect sense if the Big Beaver corridor is where the jobs are.
First, because that infrastructure already exists in Detroit and doesn't elsewhere (MCS ring a bell?).
Second, there is no logistical advantage to putting that type of infrastructure in Troy, Birmingham or Royal Oak. They are not in close proximity to any major airports or border crossings. They aren't even near the geographic center of Metro Detroit.
Third, the NIMBYs. |
Detroitrise
Member
Username: Detroitrise
Post Number: 2412
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 10:40 am: | |
There ya go.
That's been my point the whole time.
I know we all want to help the city, but we have to put our well beings first and walk in other people's shoes.
Why would anyone want to move here for the price of gas over much more important assets. |
El_jimbo
Member
Username: El_jimbo
Post Number: 704
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 10:40 am: | |
Rax,
Who said anything about blaming Lowell? Try reading more slowly next time.
What I'm saying is that it seems like a lot of people are saying that Detroit wasn't going to fix itself during the cheap energy days that we used to have and now people are saying that even if expensive energy forces people to live in cities they won't live in Detroit and Detroit will never recover.
If that is the case, why bother with any of the things we talk about on here? If things aren't going to get better and more people will leave, why do any of you stick around Michigan or post on this board? If you truly believe it is sinking ship, why not get out now while you still can?
Perhaps if that is how some people feel we should change this forum to DetroitGOODBYE.com. |
Rax
Member
Username: Rax
Post Number: 433
Registered: 11-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 10:42 am: | |
They wouldn't? Is that the right answer? You set me up Detoitrise! |
Warriorfan
Member
Username: Warriorfan
Post Number: 910
Registered: 08-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 10:44 am: | |
quote:Some of you are really failing to see the big picture... Surprising I know... but if gas prices stay high, people will be forced to adjust to it by doing such things as living near transit lines! It's not a matter of cutting back in other areas just to feed your oil addiction. If you keep using the oil without cutting your consumption, the prices will continue to rise!
So one way or another your asses will be back to living in Detroit; either out of necessity for a more dense living environment, or because you pay so much for gas that you can't afford to live anywhere else.
This post hurt my brain. Yeah, I'm sure all the middle-class suburbanites are going to be "forced" to move to Detroit and ride DDOT because of high gas prices. The ONLY people who would be forced to abandon private transportation because of high gas prices are the poorest of the poor and guess what, they already live in Detroit. The middle class will adjust to high gas prices, they already have. They cut back elsewhere. They stop taking vacations, they rent movies instead of going to the movies. They cut back on going to concerts and sporting events. But they don't give up their car and home and move to Detroit to ride the bus. That's the stupidest fucking thing I've ever read, and that's saying a lot for this forum. |
Higgs1634
Member
Username: Higgs1634
Post Number: 528
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 10:45 am: | |
quote:If that is the case Higgs, then Lowell might as well shut down the board because this city and the region have no hope left.
Not saying there isn't hope. Just saying there is little in our regional leadership to indicate that anything will change in the long or short term.
quote: If we were failing under the previous circumstances with cheap fuel and now it won't succeed in the future with higher fuel...
Scary isn't it? This region was in a recession at least 5 years before the rest of the country felt anything. Just imagine what the next 5 are going to bring with the same leadership that is inept and corrupt at worst and economically illiterate and short sighted at best ?
quote:...than why the hell are any of us wasting our time on here talking about possible turnarounds or doing anything to try and help this area.
A bunch of snowbirds, out-staters, and suburbanites TALKING and reminiscing about what Detroit was like a half century ago,hand wringing over the demolition of buildings 30 years empty (where they once had a dentist appointment) , and bitching about the lack of mass transit is no way to save a region.
quote:We might as well just close up shop and leave now.
A whole lot have already and more will. Is there anything going on here to give one any optimism?
We are in pure survival mode around here, and we still can't get it together. |
Detroitrise
Member
Username: Detroitrise
Post Number: 2413
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 10:45 am: | |
Pretty much, and it would also make the point Iheartthed and El_jimbo (and select others)are trying to say irrelevant when considering the whole reality of this situation. |
Rax
Member
Username: Rax
Post Number: 434
Registered: 11-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 10:46 am: | |
quote:Perhaps if that is how some people feel we should change this forum to DetroitGOODBYE.com.
If you are looking to change the name of this forum, I suggest you click the contact button on the left side of page. This is something only Lowell or the moderators can address. I'm a guest here. I'm not trying to tell him what to name his forum. |
Higgs1634
Member
Username: Higgs1634
Post Number: 529
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 10:56 am: | |
quote:First, because that infrastructure already exists in Detroit and doesn't elsewhere (MCS ring a bell?)
Are you serious? MCS does ring a bell. It's 20 years of abandonment and blight upon the city rings a bell. It rings out as a beacon of neglect and unenforced code violations. It's just one of many glaring examples of 35+ years of urban blight. It is many things, however, considering the hundreds of millions it would take to make this building usable, one thing it is not is an example of 'existing infrastructure'. |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 3204
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 10:59 am: | |
quote:This post hurt my brain.
Color me surprised.
quote:Yeah, I'm sure all the middle-class suburbanites are going to be "forced" to move to Detroit and ride DDOT because of high gas prices. The ONLY people who would be forced to abandon private transportation because of high gas prices are the poorest of the poor and guess what, they already live in Detroit. The middle class will adjust to high gas prices, they already have. They cut back elsewhere. They stop taking vacations, they rent movies instead of going to the movies. They cut back on going to concerts and sporting events. But they don't give up their car and home and move to Detroit to ride the bus. That's the stupidest fucking thing I've ever read, and that's saying a lot for this forum.
So these middle class people that can afford to live elsewhere cut back on spending to put money into the gas tank. That means they aren't spending money at the malls, Home Depot, Lowe's, so they have to start closing. More people out of jobs. If these middle class people cut back on spending that means they aren't buying cars... so surprise, more people out of jobs! More defaults on mortgages, more people leaving the state. Trust me, they will ride the goddamn bus if they have to.
Some of you people are so fucking short sighted. |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 3205
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 11:00 am: | |
quote:Are you serious? MCS does ring a bell. It's 20 years of abandonment and blight upon the city rings a bell. It rings out as a beacon of neglect and unenforced code violations. It's just one of many glaring examples of 35+ years of urban blight. It is many things, however, considering the hundreds of millions it would take to make this building usable, one thing it is not is an example of 'existing infrastructure'.
Except for all the train tracks running through it. Yup, no infrastructure there! |
El_jimbo
Member
Username: El_jimbo
Post Number: 705
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 11:04 am: | |
Go fuck yourself, Rax. I don't know why you are being such a smartass to me. I'm entitled to my opinion just as much as you are to yours. That condescending bullshit isn't going to fly. |
Higgs1634
Member
Username: Higgs1634
Post Number: 530
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 11:05 am: | |
quote:Trust me, they will ride the goddamn bus if they have to.
Perhaps. But, if it comes to that, you know what else they'll do? Demand the bus system in the suburbs gets beefed up.
One thing the will not do is move into Detroit to be near a bus line. |
Rax
Member
Username: Rax
Post Number: 435
Registered: 11-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 11:07 am: | |
quote:So these middle class people that can afford to live elsewhere cut back on spending to put money into the gas tank. That means they aren't spending money at the malls, Home Depot, Lowe's, so they have to start closing. More people out of jobs. If these middle class people cut back on spending that means they aren't buying cars... so surprise, more people out of jobs! More defaults on mortgages, more people leaving the state. Trust me, they will ride the goddamn bus if they have to.
Some of you people are so fucking short sighted.
Hey welcome to the discussion. It's called a recession. Did you just roll out of bed? |
Higgs1634
Member
Username: Higgs1634
Post Number: 531
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 11:07 am: | |
quote:Except for all the train tracks running through it. Yup, no infrastructure there!
The last train left that station in 1988! yeah,te tracks are there, however, after 20 years of non use they're only value is as scrap. |
Rax
Member
Username: Rax
Post Number: 436
Registered: 11-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 11:09 am: | |
quote:Go fuck yourself, Rax. I don't know why you are being such a smartass to me. I'm entitled to my opinion just as much as you are to yours. That condescending bullshit isn't going to fly.
Gee whiz, sorry El Jimbo. |
Detroitrise
Member
Username: Detroitrise
Post Number: 2415
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 11:12 am: | |
Some people can't except the fact that they're delusional and it's just a dream. |
Registeredguest
Member
Username: Registeredguest
Post Number: 375
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 11:15 am: | |
"Some people can't except the fact that they're delusional and it's just a dream."
What - like The Matrix?••• Now that was a good movie. So deep, so profound. Much like the posting on this topic. |
El_jimbo
Member
Username: El_jimbo
Post Number: 706
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 11:17 am: | |
Rax,
I tried to make a legitimate point and you come back with snarky comments about talking to Lowell if I want to change the name of the board. You knew full well that I wasn't actually suggesting we change the name of the board I was just trying to make a point. People don't like when others try to marginalize their comments with smartass, mocking responses. It tends to upset them. |
Rax
Member
Username: Rax
Post Number: 437
Registered: 11-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 11:18 am: | |
Oh God, speaking of delusional. How are things in Indian Village? |