 
Detroitrise
Member
Username: Detroitrise
Post Number: 2416
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 11:18 am: |    |
Registeredguest, comparing some of these posts to the Matrix is an insult to Joel Silver and the Wachowski brothers. |
Mwilbert
Member
Username: Mwilbert
Post Number: 265
Registered: 11-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 11:19 am: | |
Let's go back the guy with the wife and four kids in Troy. It isn't just the commute into town--it is driving the kids everywhere. They can't walk anywhere interesting in Troy, even if it isn't very far, the roads are unsuited to walking. Aside from the gas, the amount of time spent on this is a killer. And the roads where the stores are aren't very good for biking either, which otherwise is a great way for kids to get around by themselves.
Now the idea that this family would move into Detroit anytime soon is absurd--middle-income families with children are the last people who move into any big US city, not just Detroit. But they might be better off in Huntington Woods, or Royal Oak or Grosse Pointe. And Troy, although unappealing to me, is hardly the least convenient place to live among suburbs.
Changes in the economic environment are going to affect people's choices at the margin. The hypothetical family might change suburbs. A single person or an empty-nest couple might move into Detroit. The point is not that everyone who lives in a suburb is suddenly going to say "Gas is high, time to move into town", the point is that people who are living in a town that is only a little better for them than some other one may find that the relative attractiveness of the two changes.
But as other people have mentioned, people don't have to stay in Michigan at all, and as they move a lot won't. |
Detroitrise
Member
Username: Detroitrise
Post Number: 2417
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 11:20 am: | |
"Oh God, speaking of delusional. How are things in Indian Village?"
So far, so good.
Along with the Palmer neighborhoods it might actually get somewhere. |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 3206
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 11:24 am: | |
quote:Hey welcome to the discussion. It's called a recession. Did you just roll out of bed?
No, what Michigan is currently going through is called a depression. While you all sit up here and bitch about some suburbanites not wanting to be associated with the big bad city. Well, you know what? If that's the number one concern of Michigan residents right now then they deserve this fucking depression. |
Spacemonkey
Member
Username: Spacemonkey
Post Number: 663
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 11:25 am: | |
"Along with the Palmer neighborhoods it might actually get somewhere."
Get somewhere?
Where?
Where's it going?
(Message edited by spacemonkey on June 17, 2008) |
Rax
Member
Username: Rax
Post Number: 439
Registered: 11-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 11:26 am: | |
quote:But they might be better off in Huntington Woods, or Royal Oak or Grosse Pointe. And Troy, although unappealing to me, is hardly the least convenient place to live among suburbs.
I agree with that. I guess it depends on where you work and is it worth uprooting your kids, or moving away frome extended family and friends. Also, I like how people just "assume" that because of the gas prices people will just magically move closer to the city core. One problem...how the hell are we going to sell our house? |
Registeredguest
Member
Username: Registeredguest
Post Number: 376
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 11:27 am: | |
"Oh God, speaking of delusional. How are things in Indian Village?"
Well - it's been a pretty eventful week in the HIV (Historic Indian Village), glad you asked. Someone's cat escaped last week, but was found. Someone lost a cocker spaniel, too. But that was found. A suspicious vehicle drove through on Thursday, I think. It left. A resident painted their porch white, and I do not think the color was approved by the historic district commission. They may have to strip the paint. Some trees were pruned by the city a few weeks back and the streets were cleaned by the city. Garbage was collected on Thursday. Yard trimmings were also collected. A guy was pushing a red lawn mower around about a week ago, wanting to cut lawns. I think his fee could have been paid in booze, but am not certain. Someone left their purse in their car at the Market while shopping. It was stolen. Waldorf had an auction. They raised some money. The garden clubs may have met. Some business was probably discussed. |
Rax
Member
Username: Rax
Post Number: 440
Registered: 11-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 11:30 am: | |
Sounds like "Anytown USA". I like it. |
Detroitrise
Member
Username: Detroitrise
Post Number: 2418
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 11:31 am: | |
Spacemonkey, wherever properous neighborhoods go... |
Mind_field
Member
Username: Mind_field
Post Number: 915
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 11:31 am: | |
The suburbs will not collapse or fall into precipitous decline. They will decline, but the auto companies will provide a solution. Cars like the Chevy Volt are just the start of the transportation revolution that will make concerns about expensive fuel a thing of the past. Toyota is developing a plug in hybrid as well, and Honda is working on a show room ready fuel cell vehicle. The automakers can adapt to market conditions relatively quickly. This will enable suburbia to remain viable, even if it still is not as sustainable as dense inner city living well served by mass transit. |
Spacemonkey
Member
Username: Spacemonkey
Post Number: 664
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 11:41 am: | |
Serious question ...
What's the point of living in Indian Village? What's it all worth? Is it worth the trouble and inconvenience, really?
Sure, the houses are old timey, but where do you go shopping for groceries and clothes? 25 miles away? Isn't that a hassle? It was when I lived downtown D at Cass and Bagley. I had to drive to the suburbs to get simple groceries and gas.
Also, where do families go for a bike ride to get an ice cream, or to a park to go on slides or throw a frisbee? Is there such activities within the 3 blocks that make up HIV? The surrounding areas are disgusting, so we know you don't ever go outside the boundary of HIV. There'd be no point to wander there.
Why bother? |
Pam
Member
Username: Pam
Post Number: 4173
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 11:47 am: | |
quote:Also, I like how people just "assume" that because of the gas prices people will just magically move closer to the city core. One problem...how the hell are we going to sell our house?
Another problem, a lot of people don't work in the city core. They commute suburb to suburb.
People will try carpooling, buying smaller cars, working at home etc. before they move anywhere. |
Registeredguest
Member
Username: Registeredguest
Post Number: 377
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 12:00 pm: | |
Serious question ...
What's the point of living in Indian Village? What's it all worth? Is it worth the trouble and inconvenience, really?
Sure, the houses are old timey, but where do you go shopping for groceries and clothes? 25 miles away? Isn't that a hassle? It was when I lived downtown D at Cass and Bagley. I had to drive to the suburbs to get simple groceries and gas.
Also, where do families go for a bike ride to get an ice cream, or to a park to go on slides or throw a frisbee? Is there such activities within the 3 blocks that make up HIV? The surrounding areas are disgusting, so we know you don't ever go outside the boundary of HIV. There'd be no point to wander there.
Why bother?
Spacemonkey - Why do you care? Does trashing another neighborhood in Southeast Michigan help make you feel good? Does it justify your decision to live in Oakland County, or wherever? If making vast assumptions about a community and its residents make you feel like a more of a man, then more power to you.
Otherwise, to answer your question, since it's obviously soooooo urgent and important, I like living in HIV because I like living in a neighborhood whose acronym is associated with a virus. |
El_jimbo
Member
Username: El_jimbo
Post Number: 707
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 12:05 pm: | |
RegisteredGuest,
Anybody who has to drive 25 miles away to find a grocery store is an IDIOT. Even if you have to go to the suburbs, there must be a decent grocery store MUCH closer than 25 miles from Indian Village. |
Gogo
Member
Username: Gogo
Post Number: 1434
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 12:31 pm: | |
spacemonkey - You were either unaware of what grocery stores exist near Indian Village or shop at a very specific grocery store that is 25 miles away...
In the yellow pages I see close to 100 "grocery stores" less than 5 miles away. Most of them party stores, but between the ones listed below, you probably can get anything you need...
0.0 miles - Indian Village Market
1.3 miles - Harbortown Market
2.5 miles - Eastern Market
3.3 miles - Zaccarro's
3.3 miles - Mulier's Market
4.5 miles - Polish Market
4.6 miles - Kroger
4.6 miles - Trader Joes
Maybe you only shop at Meijer (11 miles) or some other places that is 25 miles away.
Ice cream...
0.0 miles - Dairy
2.8 miles - Cold Stone Creamery
3.1 miles - Ben & Jerry's
3.4 miles - Baskin-Robbins
3.9 miles - Freezing Pointe
Parks...
0.0 miles - Mollicone Park
0.2 miles - Owen Park
0.4 miles - Emma Henderson Park
0.6 miles - Gabriel Richard Park
1.3 miles - Belle Isle
1.5 miles - Mt Elliot Park
2.5 miles - Tricentenniel State Park
3.5 miles - Campus Martius Park
(Message edited by gogo on June 17, 2008) |
Pam
Member
Username: Pam
Post Number: 4174
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 12:39 pm: | |
Spacemonkey was the guy who made the grocery comment. RG was responding to him. |
El_jimbo
Member
Username: El_jimbo
Post Number: 708
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 12:51 pm: | |
sorry RG. I didn't scroll up enough and I didn't see quotes around it. |
Wazootyman
Member
Username: Wazootyman
Post Number: 360
Registered: 02-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 12:52 pm: | |
For most people, Detroit isn't even a part of their daily lives. They commute from suburb to suburb. My girlfriend and I live in Livonia - I work in Plymouth (9 miles) and she works in Livonia (4 miles). That amounts to less than $60/mo in commuting expenses for myself, and probably about $40 for her, even with gas at $4.00/gal. Mass transit isn't much cheaper. Believe it or not, we can even walk to the grocery store, video store, two pharmacies, four restaurants, a bar, an ice cream store, several parks and a store that sells pet supplies. These are all within 10 minutes walking distance from my front porch. It's not urban, but it's not sprawl either - at least in my opinion. It's a good, clean, safe neighborhood where everyone looks out for another. Very few houses are for sale. City services are top notch - even the street sweeper comes through every other week. Emergency response is very quick. Police cruise through the neighborhood frequently. Our mayor is not a crook. The schools are well above average. Why wouldn't I want to live there?
$5.00 or $10.00 gas isn't going to affect my daily commute. It is MUCH more likely to affect my ability to travel to West Michigan (to visit her family) or to go up north to the family cottage. Mass transit will probably never link these destinations. It might affect my ability to drive across town to go out to dinner, but then again, what's gas cost compared to the steep tab for a night out?
Rising gas prices are good for nobody. We have no viable alternatives to gasoline/diesel right now, despite what politicians may try to force upon us. If high gas prices increase the use of public transportation - it's purely to avoid financial ruin. Does anybody ride the bus because they genuinely prefer it over their own car?
As for moving out of Metro Detroit, what will that solve? A good half of the US population lives in suburbia. If they wanted to live in an urban setting, then would, but it's obvious they do not. |
El_jimbo
Member
Username: El_jimbo
Post Number: 709
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 12:56 pm: | |
Wazooty,
Inner ring suburbs like a livonia or even a plymouth will probably survive to some extent. The ones that won't are the shelby townships of the world. |
Perfectgentleman
Member
Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 7037
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 1:07 pm: | |
The folks in Shelby Township don't care what you think Jimbo. They seem to be doing a pretty good job at surviving too as even during the recent tough economic times they have been expanding. Many of you urban folks clearly have no understanding of suburbia and the people who live there. This is one of the most asinine threads there has been on this board.
I get the impression that you Detroit enthusiasts are actually HOPING for high gas prices because you think it will bring back the city. All it will do is hurt the working poor, many of which live in Detroit itself. Gas could be $100 per gallon and I wouldn't move my family into Detroit.
It would really be refreshing if Detroiters worried more about getting their own house in order than obsessing about what the suburbs are doing. |
Mwilbert
Member
Username: Mwilbert
Post Number: 266
Registered: 11-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 1:14 pm: | |
"They will decline, but the auto companies will provide a solution. Cars like the Chevy Volt are just the start of the transportation revolution that will make concerns about expensive fuel a thing of the past."
I don't think so. Do you know what a Volt is going to cost? Neither does GM, but the price is now expected to be around 45K for the 40 mile range version, and they will almost certainly lose money on it. GM is now looking at building a 20 mile range version so that they can sell them to a wider market. But a 20 mile range won't do you much good in Wixom, or probably even in Troy. Nor is it clear when it will be available. But I agree with the general point that personal transportation is unlikely to become so expensive that the suburbs are unviable.
However it would be a big mistake to ignore the other costs associated with expensive fuel that aren't going to be dealt with so easily. There aren't any cheap substitutes for diesel--the cost of running school buses, garbage trucks, plows, etc. is going to make it hard for towns with a lot of road per person to balance their budgets.
Further, just the cost of maintaining those roads paved is going up, both because you have to run machines to pave things, and because the price of asphalt has nearly doubled in the past five years. People are seeing this in higher taxes and fees and in reduced services--the price of low density are rising. I'm sure a lot of people will be willing and able to pay that price, but a bunch won't. |
El_jimbo
Member
Username: El_jimbo
Post Number: 710
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 1:22 pm: | |
Perfectgentlemen,
I know full well what the suburbs are like as I grew up there myself (South Lyon) so I have a pretty good understanding of suburbia and the people that live there.
As far as high gas prices are concerned, yes, I DO hope they stay high and go higher (as they most certainly will). Not just for Detroit, but for the country and the environment in general. Suburbs are the most inefficient use of land and resources humanity has every come up with besides war. The cost to support such a system is astronomical and I believe is a key contributor to our current economic conditions. They simply aren't sustainable.
I have nothing against suburban living myself. I know it is a great lifestyle and many people enjoy it and I fully understand its appeal. However, the problem we are running into now is that as a society, we CAN'T afford it anymore.
I commend people living in the suburbs. They live their lives in a way they want to live. They are hard working, good people just like anyone else. Unfortunately for them, as fuel expenses continue to outpace wage increases, many people will no longer be able to afford the way of life they enjoy and have grown accustomed to and may have to make decisions that they previously might not have made. Whether it be to move to a major city like Detroit or an inner ring suburb like Royal Oak or Livonia, they may have to choose a new place to live. |
Detroitrise
Member
Username: Detroitrise
Post Number: 2419
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 1:28 pm: | |
South Lyon is not a suburb. |
Rax
Member
Username: Rax
Post Number: 441
Registered: 11-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 1:29 pm: | |
What way of life? Cutting back 200 bucks a month to help cover gas is not that hard to do. Bye bye digital cable and going out to eat as a family twice a month. I'm sure if anyone could actually sell their house in South Lyon, they might consider moving to Ferndale. What is your point? |
Perfectgentleman
Member
Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 7041
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 1:33 pm: | |
quote:many people will no longer be able to afford the way of life they enjoy
What we can't afford is more failed cities like Detroit, which is poisoning the entire area and even the state itself. Detroit's criminal mayor and the grade school dropouts on the city council have made Michigan the laughing stock of the nation.
We have spent gobs of taxpayer dollars for social programs to help the people of Detroit and what we have gotten for it is a 70% illegitimacy rate, 25% graduation rates from high school, a 60% illiteracy rate, and a high crime rate.
People will buy more fuel efficient vehicles or drive less, moving to Detroit solves nothing because they would still need to drive cars anyway. They can also do what I do, which is work from home. If they choose to live somewhere else, it ain't gonna be Detroit. They will leave the state more than likely. |
Spacemonkey
Member
Username: Spacemonkey
Post Number: 666
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 1:50 pm: | |
Gogo, you mention one Kroger. It's probably the same gross Kroger that I shopped once or twice when I lived downtown in 1992-1996. Not a safe place.
The rest don't really qualify. |
El_jimbo
Member
Username: El_jimbo
Post Number: 711
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 1:53 pm: | |
South Lyon certainly is a suburb. If not it certainly shows all the symptoms of a suburb. I also lived in Canton too. Do I get my Suburb merit badge now Detroitrise?
Rax,
As far as my point is concerned, people are cutting back now on a lot of non-essential items like digital cable and dining out. However, what happens a year from now if gas is $5 a gallon or more? What more will people cut out? How much more CAN they cut out? Eventually, it could lead to a whole new round of foreclosures. |
Detroitrise
Member
Username: Detroitrise
Post Number: 2420
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 1:53 pm: | |
I assume Gogo is speaking about 1 of the 3 Krogers in Grosse Pointe.
Oh, and yeah, I wouldn't eat at that dairy shop on Mack if I was on my death bed.
I heard something wans't right about their Ice Cream. |
Registeredguest
Member
Username: Registeredguest
Post Number: 378
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 1:55 pm: | |
"The rest don't really qualify."
Who anointed you the grocery store god, eh? |
Detroitrise
Member
Username: Detroitrise
Post Number: 2421
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 1:55 pm: | |
I suppose if South Lyon is a suburb, so is Brighton and Howell.
Yes, I believe Canton is a suburb, but anything pass that is not. |