 
Detroitnerd
Member
Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 2500
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 4:05 pm: |    |
I live in Detroit, just outside of Hamtramck, technically. |
Rax
Member
Username: Rax
Post Number: 449
Registered: 11-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 4:10 pm: | |
Nice. |
Detroitnerd
Member
Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 2501
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 4:13 pm: | |
It's pretty nice. There's the new Al-Haramine grocery down the street, opened by some enterprising Yemeni folks. It has an olive bar and I can buy pre-made grape leaves and fresh bread when I feel like snacking instead of cooking. The Bozek Market has been completely redone, just across the street, for European specialties. My neighborhood bar is the affordable Seven Brothers Bar, a 25-minute walk on a nice night. Small's is close by, the Belmont a little further, so I never want for live music. I have a CVS in walking distance, lots of cheapie stores, great Bangladeshi-Indian food (three eateries). And it's only five miles from work, so I can bike in good weather. |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 3208
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 4:15 pm: | |
>Detroitnerd
Remind them how Times Square once looked. |
Detroitnerd
Member
Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 2502
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 4:16 pm: | |
Haha. You know what, though? The truth is I LIKED IT BEFORE!  |
Detroitrise
Member
Username: Detroitrise
Post Number: 2436
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 4:18 pm: | |
Stand at Michigan/Lafayette and Griswold.
You have your own virtual shadow of Times Square. |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 3209
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 4:19 pm: | |
quote:Haha. You know what, though? The truth is I LIKED IT BEFORE!
Yeah, I hear that a lot. But I wasn't around these parts back in that era. I was still in and around the D (back when Detroit was statistically the least dangerous of the two cities, btw). |
Mauser765
Member
Username: Mauser765
Post Number: 2868
Registered: 01-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 4:21 pm: | |
qw3rx`` |
Perfectgentleman
Member
Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 7049
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 4:34 pm: | |
We have seen high fuel prices before, as a percentage of income, they were higher in the 1970's than they are now. The average MPG for cars then was also far lower. That did not spark a resurgence in urban living then and it won't now.
Personal transportation is the preferred mode for most people, and new technology with higher mileage cars along with some lifestyle adjustments will allow that to continue. |
Detroitnerd
Member
Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 2503
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 4:37 pm: | |
Don't stop believing, PG! |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 3210
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 4:50 pm: | |
quote:The average MPG for cars then was also far lower. That did not spark a resurgence in urban living then and it won't now.
But it did spark a trend of buying more fuel efficient cars. Also, the mass transit infrastructure of the 1970s was a lot better than it is today, both nationally and in Detroit. |
Perfectgentleman
Member
Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 7051
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 4:50 pm: | |
Is not a question of believing, it is looking at facts. Nice to see so many anti-car people in a car town, what nonsense. |
Detroitrise
Member
Username: Detroitrise
Post Number: 2439
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 4:53 pm: | |
I wonder do these same "anit-car people" stand outside hours in the winter waiting on a bus? |
Perfectgentleman
Member
Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 7052
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 5:01 pm: | |
quote:Also, the mass transit infrastructure of the 1970s was a lot better than it is today
What happened to it then? Why didn't it sustain itself if people were clamoring for it? |
Detroitnerd
Member
Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 2504
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 5:03 pm: | |
You are framing the future in terms of what you believe. I see no evidence. That's why I congratulate you on the strength of your belief.
Go ahead. I'm leaving the computer in a little while, so you can have your belief-based straw-man fest in a bit, without fact-based challenge. |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 3211
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 5:21 pm: | |
quote:What happened to it then? Why didn't it sustain itself if people were clamoring for it?
Roads don't sustain themselves. Why do people still use them?
From what I read the SEMPTA trains were scheduled to run at odd times, thus reducing ridership. Eventually the powers that be, the ones that set the odd schedules to begin with, decided that ridership wasn't high enough to justify continuing the service. Soon afterwards, downtown Detroit was effectively abandoned much to everyone's surprise and dismay.
For the record, I am not an anti-car person. I believe a healthy American metropolis of Detroit's size has room for both cars and mass transit. But I do think that it's unhealthy for a metropolis a large as Detroit to not have an alternative mode of transportation that the personal automobile. I think that Detroit, city and suburb, cannot maintain it's population by continuing to ignore this deficiency.
I also think that being tilted so heavily towards automobile usage makes Michigan's largest metropolis a less attractive place to do business than it's major metro counterparts of similar size. Finally, I think it's downright stupid for Detroit and Michigan not to be capitalizing on it's location along a major international friendly border crossing by not having an efficient mass transit system -- one that would compliment a regional international train network that could be implemented fairly easily. Unfortunately, the powers that be in Michigan don't agree with me. |
Detroitnerd
Member
Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 2507
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 5:23 pm: | |
You're right, Iheart: It takes more than demand. It takes sensible, far-thinking leadership. For instance, imagine if we already had a streetcar line. DDOT wouldn't be scrambling to put more express buses on the road right now. |
Perfectgentleman
Member
Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 7059
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 5:31 pm: | |
quote:You are framing the future in terms of what you believe. I see no evidence.
Where is your evidence of a resurgence in people moving into Detroit? Oh thats right, there isn't any. In fact people are still leaving. |
Perfectgentleman
Member
Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 7060
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 5:33 pm: | |
quote:Roads don't sustain themselves. Why do people still use them?
Simple, people use them because they prefer personal transportation. They are willing to pay the gasoline taxes necessary to maintain them.
(Message edited by perfectgentleman on June 17, 2008) |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 3212
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 5:38 pm: | |
quote:Simple, because people use them because they prefer personal transportation. They are willing to pay the gasoline taxes necessary to maintain them.
If gasoline taxes paid for roads then why are the highway maintenance budgets of governments tapped out? Why is the Oakland County road commissioner saying that road maintenance is becoming too much of a burden? and why is he advocating alternative methods of transportation be studied?
If people are so willing to pay this tax then why did the political pander idea of a suspension of the gas tax gain so much steam? |
Detroitnerd
Member
Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 2508
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 5:41 pm: | |
PG: There are parts of the city that are in poor shape. Those are the places where people are leaving, if they can. Frankly, I don't blame them. As a region, our answer to people living in hard-done-by neighborhoods has been to offer them the hope of leaving. And I have no doubt they're happy to leave a disinvested neighborhood for one with greater investment.
But in the areas I spend most of my time in, I see lots of new faces. White faces, yellow faces, brown faces. My neighborhood outside of Hamtramck has had about 800 Poles move into it in the last 10-20 years. Not to mention Yemenis, Albanians, Bangladeshis, etc. They're remaking Conant Avenue into a thriving business district.
But that's nothing compared to the sort of investment in Detroit, specifically, Woodward south of the freeway and Jefferson between the bridges. Are you aware that last year, Detroit led the region in new housing starts? You should see the mammoth residences the university is putting up next to the Whitney. They run right up to the street where, last year, was a huge parking lot. Whenever I go to the bar, I can usually find a seat, but often just barely. These people I run into are well-educated and have money to spend.
Hell, a few weeks ago I was at the Bronx with members of a movie crew shooting a film in Detroit. You know what's funny? These people had lived in L.A., Salt Lake City, Chicago, etc., and they unanimously loved staying here. That even threw me!
PG: You seem to view the world in terms of your ideology. Perhaps you should come down some time and take a good close look, talk to people, eat some of the food, and consider what you've experienced. It's just not 1987 anymore. |
Detroitnerd
Member
Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 2509
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 5:43 pm: | |
Well, some people in the Detroit area use personal vehicles because they like them. The rest use them because they have no choice.
I mean, jesus, that's like saying everybody who voted for Stalin loved Stalin. Who else was on the ballot? :P |
Perfectgentleman
Member
Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 7061
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 5:46 pm: | |
The federal highway fund has been running a surplus for years although for the first time it is projected to see a shortfall because the fund has been raided for other projects including mass transit. All transportation funds (including mass transit) are hurting in Michigan due to economic conditions, tax revenues are down. The road commissioner can "study" mass transit all he wants, but there is no money to build it.
Mass transit always operates at a loss, I don't know of a system in the country that gets enough revenue from its riders to sustain itself, so other taxpayer dollars are needed, many of which come from people who don't even use the system.
So you argument that somehow it would be cheaper for Oakland County to put in mass transit is flawed. The area is not laid out with mass transit in mind, personal transportation will still be the preferred mode of most people. So, again massive subsidies would be needed to operate a system that would be servicing a small fraction of people. |
Perfectgentleman
Member
Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 7062
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 5:51 pm: | |
quote:
PG: You seem to view the world in terms of your ideology
Don't we all? Are you saying you don't? Not from what I have seen. At any rate, I have lived here all of my life and I come into the city often. I wouldn't live in Detroit ever but especially not now. You can talk about the yuppies that are coming in but they are no where near offsetting the amount of people that have left.
You think your little corner of the world is representative of all things but clearly the facts don't support that. There is not major trend towards suburban people moving in to the city and there won't be one unless and until real reforms and improvements are made. |
Bragaboutme
Member
Username: Bragaboutme
Post Number: 285
Registered: 02-2008
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 5:54 pm: | |
Good post Detroitnerd, people had a very different tone back in 2006 when the super bowl was here and the hype was in full swing. Now the hype has died down and people are retracting back to their negative thinking. Truth is Detroit is a hell of alot better than it was in 2000, and the future is still bright. As far as the opinions from the news watcher I don't buy the B.S. they try to push. New York is a whole nother engine that will always eclipse every other city in the union for the simple fact that it sits at the entrance of the erie canal. Everything has to either come through or leave their and they make sure they will continue to feed the east coast. Chicago feeds the midwest, so that means Detroit lives and dies by the Auto Industry and those who pass through its borders. It grew in the early century and shrunk not because of violence, but because of the loss of jobs. Companies have downsized and will continue until the supply meets the demand.
No one has mentioned the 200 white collar jobs that were just cut and the constant loss of homes to foreclosure in the suburban areas. This is a critical point in our regions history and American history point blank many of our cities are going through drastic changes. |
W_chicago
Member
Username: W_chicago
Post Number: 38
Registered: 01-2008
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 5:56 pm: | |
In regards to transit in the city:
I don't have a car. I wait for the Woodward bus often. And most buses are busy or full. During rush hour there is often times standing room only. Because of the high ridership along Woodward and other routes, DDOT has already implemented Express Bus service, that only stops at select stops. In addition, a light rail line along Woodward will start construction in the next 2-3 years, and be the first in a, hopefully, expanding system.
The current express buss service is, while a result of increased demand, not the route Detroit should follow. For with careful planning, the city can actually use new infrastructure, such as a light rail on many major avenues to spark even more ridership. (I must also note that limiting light-rail to Woodward is also a mistake. Clean, fast, efficient, affordable, and quality transit must be accessible to as many people as possible and especially to marginalized constituencies. So light rail on more avenues would be an important goal).
Waiting for the buses to get filled to the brink until they are undesirable to ride is not the solution. Planning is the solution. |
Detroitnerd
Member
Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 2510
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 6:01 pm: | |
I don't have the money to live by ideology. I live by my means and my wits.
And, if one resident that makes the median income, around $20,000 a year, leaves the city, and another resident, earning $50,000 a year, enters it, well, do the math yourself. I'd say it does offset things, at least in dollar terms.
I'm not saying my little corner of the world is representative of all things, just itself. I'm giving you the figures, the facts, from housing starts to new developments. I've seen it happen before. Based on what I see and read, I think it's happening here. There certainly is greater investment in the city than since the 1980s, when, in one year, there were less than a dozen builds citywide. I'm telling you, man, last year the city led the region in housing starts. Washington Boulevard is closed right now because they're shooting a movie. I'm seeing huge buildings going up where there were bare lots just a few years ago.
For crying out loud, read the city business paper if you don't believe a scruffy urban denizen like me! |
Perfectgentleman
Member
Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 7064
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 6:03 pm: | |
I would love it if ONE Light Rail project would get off the ground. That way we can really see what it brings to the area. What is the hold up? Federal money is available apparently. |
Detroitnerd
Member
Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 2511
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 6:04 pm: | |
Brag: I don't know how important the Erie Canal is anymore (are you putting me on? ), but I'm staggered by the foreclosure and abandonment in the inner-ring suburbs. Like those huge, honking vacant superstores in Dearborn, off Mercury Drive? Or I was in Eastpointe last week getting a haircut and the lady snipping my mop told me 1 in 7 homes is vacant or foreclosed. |
Detroitnerd
Member
Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 2512
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 6:07 pm: | |
PG: I'm with you all the way on that one. I'd bet the farm that if they put the streetcar line along Woodward, there'd be enough new investment to even make you think twice. |