 
Sludgedaddy
Member
Username: Sludgedaddy
Post Number: 60
Registered: 01-2008
| | Posted on Monday, June 23, 2008 - 9:14 pm: |    |
Wow, another venue to peddle more cheap Chinese junk. |
Detmi7mile
Member
Username: Detmi7mile
Post Number: 82
Registered: 12-2007
| | Posted on Monday, June 23, 2008 - 11:36 pm: | |
I remember going there and playing chess at all the Kings Men, while my mom went shopping. Always got my butt kicked by the older guys. |
Larryinflorida
Member
Username: Larryinflorida
Post Number: 1726
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Monday, June 23, 2008 - 11:43 pm: | |
I have one of those "penny for each year" coin collections I started from the coin hut that used to be in the middle of it all. That would have been like '71 or so. |
Detroitplanner
Member
Username: Detroitplanner
Post Number: 1683
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2008 - 12:05 am: | |
I took a ride out to partridge creek a couple of months back. There were definetly some odd things going on their. First of all, I noticed the mall had a greater percentage of SUV type vehicles than any other place I've been to (well besides an outdoorsman show). People were not there to shop. The stores seemed very empty. Most folks were there to show off their Fifi or Cujo type dogs (the former being annoying yippers and the later being pretty dammed dangerous to be around strange children). Not a labrador to be seen. Most of the restraunts had outdoor seating, and they were empty. No one wants to sit outside in 40 degree weather and eat a McDonalds crapburger. The mall itself was not well integrated into the surrounding neighborhood. Basically, its like wonderland used to be with dogs. However, wonderland did have some pedestrian connections to the housing behind it.
Universal had to do something, a mall with no anchors can't survive and would just push development further out.
To the person who mentioned other cities with folks shopping, Boston and New York are nowhere near as cold as we are. A fairer comparison would be Chicago or Minneapolis (home of the ped-bridges).
All these cities are moving towards having downtown shopping being centered around indoor malls. New York has a big mall next to Macy's which used to house A&S now Stern's; Michigan Ave in Chicago has more than you can count; Boston has Copley Square and Prudential. Reality is that people want a controlled corporate environment. This is what they are used to in suburban malls. They are bringing the mountain to Mohammad. Detroit needs to also have a balance of interior spaces as well as exterior public spaces to compete. It currently has only four, the Ren-Cen (which is confusing and still too internally focused), Trappers Alley (which is now 90 percent a casino, Compuware, and New Center One. The two that are integrated the best into its surroundings is Compuware and New Center One. Unfortunately, New Center One took a big hit when GM and Crowley's pulled out. Hopefully once CCS opens in the Argo, there will be more of a demand, but you can't survive just off of us Govt Workers, we're good people, but we don't make the bucks like private sector folks do. |
Reddog289
Member
Username: Reddog289
Post Number: 402
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2008 - 2:10 am: | |
New Center One is still opened?forgive me [if you can,t buy lumber,auto parts or beer, i don,t go there]. I liked shopping at Wonderland when it was an outdoor mall.Trappers Alley was cool place to go. Cept never bought crap [no bucks] |
Reddog289
Member
Username: Reddog289
Post Number: 403
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2008 - 2:20 am: | |
going to bed cept i looked at the Universal Mall on that site, reminds me of Wonderland&Livonia Malls.Eastside&Westside are getting too much the same. |
Alienjerky
Member
Username: Alienjerky
Post Number: 3
Registered: 06-2008
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2008 - 5:56 am: | |
I remember Universal mall had a great Kresge's with a lunch area where you could get a hot beef sandwich with mashed potatos & gravy for less than a buck. There was Federal's dept. store on one end and Wards on the other. Woolworth's was there too. There was a camera store and just about everything else you'd want. There was a 2 screen cinema south of the mall, it changed into a laser tag joint, then was torn down for the Kroger's that's there now. I hope the cinemark theatre stays open. It's the only place we can afford to see a movie anymore. Hey, why not bulldoze the whole works & put in a working farm with a produce stand? |
Mallory
Member
Username: Mallory
Post Number: 260
Registered: 05-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2008 - 8:34 am: | |
Too bad Jake and Elwood couldn't make a trip through there before demolition.
"Oh look, the new Oldsmobiles are in." |
Hpgrmln
Member
Username: Hpgrmln
Post Number: 496
Registered: 06-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2008 - 8:38 am: | |
Universal was the only mall I've seen with independent stores. Most malls seem to exclusively have chain stores. Universal is the only one I've seen with a flea market inside!
Is Partridge Creek similar to the outdoor mall that replaced Meadowbrook (The village or something)? |
Xd_brklyn
Member
Username: Xd_brklyn
Post Number: 420
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2008 - 9:46 am: | |
Gene, thanks for the info. Didn't think the mosaic was removed that early, but you're probably right as I don't recall seeing it in the late seventies.
Does anyone remember when the movie "The Frogs" opened at the Universal Mall (Universal City)? The movie had those strange ads that had a frog with a human hand in its mouth. There was a slew of kids to see the movie and some got locked out and broke a glass door. There was then all these kids running in pandemonium with the "frog eating a human hand" posters in the background. Fortunately, no one was hurt so it was more surreal than possibly tragic.
Because of that incident and "The Universe" mosaic, I always thought of the Universal Mall as kind of the crazy cousin to the older Oakland Mall. Though I have fond memories of the Montgomery Wards when it was there.
Anyone have a pix of the mosaic? Can't find anything on the net. |
Lnfant
Member
Username: Lnfant
Post Number: 12
Registered: 05-2008
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2008 - 9:52 am: | |
Perhaps the developers have suddenly enlightened–an 11th hour change-of-plans to plant an orchard for community survival and potential business. There are already too many humdrum malls in the area. |
Rjk
Member
Username: Rjk
Post Number: 1133
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2008 - 10:06 am: | |
Somewhat off topic, but does anyone know how much if any of the material (Steel and bricks) from a large demo project like this is recycled/reused? |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 4541
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2008 - 10:08 am: | |
quote:All these cities are moving towards having downtown shopping being centered around indoor malls. New York has a big mall next to Macy's which used to house A&S now Stern's; Michigan Ave in Chicago has more than you can count; Boston has Copley Square and Prudential.
This is definitely a response only a Michigander can give. Manhattan alone has much more than that stupid Manhattan Mall. I guess you've never been up along 5th Avenue, downtown, Times Square, the Upper West Side, or hell--just about any other street in the city. Chicago, at least on the North Side, has so much more than just Michigan Avenue, and how can you even talk about Boston without mentioning Newbury Street and the Back Bay, or even the tourist-oriented Faneuil Hall Marketplace? Hell, even Philly is primarily street-level retail in Center City.
For a planner, you don't seem to understand cities much. It seems the only example familiar to you is one that is failing badly, yet you promote using tried-and-failed suburbanization.
quote:Reality is that people want a controlled corporate environment. This is what they are used to in suburban malls.
Who did YOU ask? Don't you dictate your sterile corporate bullshit to everyone just because it's the only thing you know. Many other cities have figure this out long ago--YOU are the one who doesn't get it. Show me one large city that's building a suburban piece of shit shopping mall.
And for the record, Detroit ain't exactly near the Arctic Circle. |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 4542
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2008 - 10:10 am: | |
quote:Somewhat off topic, but does anyone know how much if any of the material (Steel and bricks) from a large demo project like this is recycled/reused?
Steel is almost always recycled these days. The scrap value is too high to just throw it in the dump. Not too sure about the masonry, though, as it can take a beating during the demolition process. |
Giver108
Member
Username: Giver108
Post Number: 2
Registered: 06-2008
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2008 - 11:56 am: | |
Bricks and masonry are typically sent to a landfill. There is a small market for reclaimed bricks but it is generally more expensive to clean the old bricks than to just buy new ones |
Wazootyman
Member
Username: Wazootyman
Post Number: 370
Registered: 02-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2008 - 12:12 pm: | |
quote:This is definitely a response only a Michigander can give.
Well, he nailed us. What is Manhattan? |
Detroitnerd
Member
Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 2581
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2008 - 12:17 pm: | |
Dan is a smart, wonderful guy. He does shellac it on a bit thick from time to time, though.  |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 4543
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2008 - 12:23 pm: | |
Yeah, that was probably inappropriate. I was a bit cranky this morning. I'll admit it.
From the people I've met, though, it really does seem that most Michiganders I meet think that you can only shop in a mall. It's almost as if the mass-suburbanized product that is Southeast Michigan is the only built environment with which they are familiar. Granted, this shouldn't be taken as a hard-and-fast generalization, but you get my drift.
The fact is, even urban malls are failing, something Cleveland (among other places) has been wrestling with for the past 15 years. Maybe that's why comments like Detroitplanner's frustrate me to no end--it's just rehashing the same old shit that has already failed everywhere else decades ago. But hey, if someone thinks that Detroit operates completely differently than everywhere else on the planet, knock yourself out. I'm just going based on what I see. |
Detroitrise
Member
Username: Detroitrise
Post Number: 2569
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2008 - 12:26 pm: | |
There's a Target (your typical one) down the street on Dequindre and 11 Mile.
I'm assuming they're going to shutter that location for a *Super Target?* at the shopping center formerly known as Universal Mall, correct? |
Detroitnerd
Member
Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 2582
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2008 - 1:06 pm: | |
Dan: I know. I get frustrated by that too. On a cranky morning, I can be pretty volatile on this forum.
I think your observation is a good one: A lot of Michigan's civic thinking is trapped somewhere in the 1960s or 1970s. As for why, I have some theories.
Michigan is a peninsula, insulated from other metro areas by a good three-hour drive. Most people here are used to having to drive everywhere. They're accustomed to malls, parking in front, broad-brush zoning. They never have had much chance to see through the myth that no American will walk more than a football field for anything.
What's more, many of our parents here have drilled into us from Day One that cities are failures. That, even if center cities are places of work and commerce, they're going to be vacant and scary at night. That's how I remember downtown Detroit as a kid. In fact, I remember first going to Chicago at 15 and wondering why all those people were out on the street at night! I thought there certainly must have been some SPECIAL EVENT to draw that many people into the Loop.
We've grown up with such bad examples that a lot of us believe that cities don't work. Especially if we haven't visited other cities and seen what they're like. That's why many people on this forum believe the only way to "save" the city is to superblock it with malls and campuses and parking lots and sports and entertainment complexes.
But the good news is that for every 10 people who leave Detroit for a less dysfunctional city, some of them return. And they've lived in those other places and have better ideas about what's happening in this new century. They're the real hope.
Then again, maybe I hope too much. Lots of those die-hard suburban folks who hate Detroit seem to love going to a show in Toronto. I wonder why they never put two and two together. That cities can be vibrant, crowded, diverse, attractive -- and still be cities. |
Johnlodge
Member
Username: Johnlodge
Post Number: 7291
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2008 - 1:43 pm: | |
Somebody will build a mall if they believe they can make money. They can make money as long as retailers believe it is better to be in a mall than on Main Street. It is better for them to be in a mall than on Main Street if people continue to go to malls and ignore their downtowns.
So it comes down to the American public, as usual. Downtown Ferndale or Royal Oak could easily have mall type stores, but they don't really. (A lot of people probably like it that way.) A Hot Topic or PacSun seems like it would go well in either city, but they won't venture outside of a mall (that I am aware of). |
Fareastsider
Member
Username: Fareastsider
Post Number: 931
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2008 - 1:46 pm: | |
You know with the venom spewed about Partridge Creek I wonder if it was built at 8 Mile and Woodward where the never to materialize Shops at Gateway are supposed to go if people would applaud it. |
Detroitnerd
Member
Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 2583
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2008 - 1:54 pm: | |
The quiet news is that traditional retail is undergoing a significant contraction right now. Even REITs are looking twice at regional malls and their "lifestyle" and "power" offshoots. I don't have a crystal ball, but I imagine retailers will be taking a fresh look at all options with things as bad as they're getting. Maybe they'll even reconsider Main Street? |
Higgs1634
Member
Username: Higgs1634
Post Number: 549
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2008 - 2:02 pm: | |
quote:But hey, if someone thinks that Detroit operates completely differently than everywhere else on the planet, knock yourself out. I'm just going based on what I see.
Detroit/SeM DOES operate completely different than everywhere (at least everywhere that is successful and thriving...). I thought that WAS the problem.
quote:What's more, many of our parents here have drilled into us from Day One that cities are failures.
I'd beg to differ on that note, especially in light of the increasing out migration of people in the 18-35 range to cities like NYC, Chicago, and elsewhere. People aren't leaving here to live in Aurora, Il. What has been drilled in, and easily reinforced, is that DETROIT is a failure, not cities in general. You made my point when you said :
quote:Lots of those die-hard suburban folks who hate Detroit seem to love going to a show in Toronto.
The first thing they say upon returning (and without a hint of irony) is, "wouldn't it be nice if Detroit were like (insert whatever functioning city you chose)" They've given Detroit up for dead. Rarely does something happen here to disabuse them of that notion.
quote:But the good news is that for every 10 people who leave Detroit for a less dysfunctional city, some of them return. And they've lived in those other places and have better ideas about what's happening in this new century. They're the real hope
I'd like to see those numbers, I'd bet it's closer to 30-1. But, yes, getting people out and getting them to return may bring some hope or at least someone to agree that things could be different here, and generally are elsewhere. However, that hope/optimism lasts until about the time they run up against the same stupid, short sighted, incompetent leaders; the same ignorant electorate; the same failed policies; and the same pathological regional dysfunction that caused them to leave in the first place.
What they are then forced to wonder is, why it was they thought it was a good idea to return in the first place as nothing has changed for the better, nor apparently will anytime in their lifetime.
How's that for cranky? |
Detroitnerd
Member
Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 2584
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2008 - 2:18 pm: | |
Higgs: For the life of me, I can't tell whether you're arguing or agreeing with me. |
Rsa
Member
Username: Rsa
Post Number: 1507
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2008 - 2:21 pm: | |
wow, talk about taking points out of context and adopting them to one's argument...
i hate to get in the middle of a pissing match here, (and with all due respect) but i have to side with dan on this one.
malls in urban settings are never successful. in fact, somebody was just referencing one in downtown san francisco that was built not even 10 years ago and is already facing financial hardships (the metreon?). also reference the galleria in downtown louisville that has now been rebuilt three times in hopes of making a profit (now fourth street live). it still has problems getting tenants. i hear that the tower in cleveland is having trouble. i have also heard that even the malls in downtown toronto and new york are never extremely profitable.
and i don't think the point about cities being failures was about cities actually failing, it was about a certain type of mentality. and, you have to admit, that post WWII america has been pretty anti-city. and i have to disagree that detroit is the only city to have failed. for every successful american city you can name, i could usually name two others that have faced the same problems detroit has (just obviously not to the same extent). |
Raptor56
Member
Username: Raptor56
Post Number: 355
Registered: 05-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2008 - 2:41 pm: | |
I'm surprised nobody posted today's Detroit News story on the project http://detnews.com/apps/pbcs.d ll/article?AID=/20080624/METRO 03/806240352/1412/METRO03
If I remember tomorrow, I'll drive by on my lunch break and take a few snap shots since the mall is 5 minutes away.. |
Higgs1634
Member
Username: Higgs1634
Post Number: 550
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2008 - 2:44 pm: | |
Dnerd--- little of both. Just bitching basically. |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 4544
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2008 - 2:47 pm: | |
A lot of very valid points above. Let's try to make some sense of this.
Shopping malls were built to cater to automobile-based consumers. As such, the customer radius of a mall is much larger than a neighborhood retail strip, since nearly all customers are expected to drive to the mall. Thus, the mall serves a huge population, and can be constructed on a fairly large scale. In order to get people to drive several miles each way to shop, anchor stores were typically given below-market rents (if at all) to draw shoppers to the smaller stores.
The reasons malls typically don't work in an urban environment are several. First, you don't have the acres and acres of free parking that the suburban malls do. Second, there just is typically not the population density within a particular radius to support a large-scale retail operation such as a mall, especially in "withered" cities. It's not too different from the principle that you can't resuscitate Detroit solely by bringing in visitors or having special events.
It's true that some urban malls are healthy. Eaton Centre in Toronto, for one, and the Pentagon City mall in Arlington, VA for another. These two, however, are in very high income areas with very high population densities in the surrounding area. Never mind that they both have subway stations just outside the door.
It seems to me, though, that after the centralizing of retail in the 1960s and 1970s, we're starting to see some decentralization. The enclosed malls devolved to "power centers", which are devolving into "lifestyle centers". I would only hope that the next phase is "neighborhood retail", but unfortunately, most current zoning regulations prohibit this. |
Detroitnerd
Member
Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 2585
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2008 - 2:49 pm: | |
Councilman Steve Warner doesn't get it: "It's been a long time coming. The mall pretty much has run its course. It needed to be replaced with a more progressive mall." |
Spacemonkey
Member
Username: Spacemonkey
Post Number: 765
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2008 - 2:50 pm: | |
I agree with Mr. Warner. |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 4545
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2008 - 3:00 pm: | |
quote:"It's been a long time coming. The mall pretty much has run its course. It needed to be replaced with a more progressive mall."
How about a mall that's so progressive, it blends in with the surrounding area, includes housing and some office space, and isn't surrounded by a moat of parking? Hell, throw in a bus stop or two for all I care! |
Higgs1634
Member
Username: Higgs1634
Post Number: 551
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2008 - 3:07 pm: | |
Dan.. in all fairness.. I share your frustration, but that progressive thinking you're advocating has been tried here. There is a whole street that runs parallel to Hall road made up of live/work areas. It's called Shelby Town Center. Goal was to have mixed use, high density, walkable area. It's a ghost town. Looks like an unused movie set.
http://www.towncentershelby.co m/live-work.htm |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 4546
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2008 - 3:11 pm: | |
^^^That's also because once you leave that very small area, you're in the middle of Sprawlsville, USA. I haven't been to the Shelby Town Center, but context is everything. |
Rsa
Member
Username: Rsa
Post Number: 1508
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2008 - 3:27 pm: | |
exactly dan; there is a virtually identical development in birmingham behind the old train station (big rock chophouse?) that has done extremely well.
but, besides the fact that development is geared more towards artists and small start up businesses, not major retail like dan is talking about. |
Higgs1634
Member
Username: Higgs1634
Post Number: 552
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2008 - 3:43 pm: | |
^^ Well, yeah, but I believe the intent was to have the area grow up around the nucleus of "Market Street" and thereby create what you're advocating; a commercial area that blends in with the surroundings. Area residents haven't exactly embraced the development. Especially with Partridge Creek right across the street (practically). I would doubt residents of Warren around Universal Mall are going to be anymore apt to jump all over a similar development there. Besides Warren is dealing with its own failed "downtown" development over on Van Dyke.
Look, all I'm saying is that there are developers trying and the projects are either failing from lack of interest or bad execution (or both). Those that want to live in dense, urban environs have either left the area entirely to find it elsewhere or moved to the few communities around here that offer it. Thinking we can created it out of whole cloth in a sprawlville is fantasy. At least until gas hits 10.00 a gallon. |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 4547
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2008 - 4:31 pm: | |
Or it could be that in its context, "Market Street" is just another subdivision, with the additional restriction that each building is intended to foster a small business. What's the connectivity to the surrounding built environment like?
You can't surround a subdivision by busy highways and expect it to be "urban", no matter what the buildings look like. |
Larryinflorida
Member
Username: Larryinflorida
Post Number: 1758
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2008 - 4:36 pm: | |
You guys remind me of the "Automobile Museum" Flint had such hopes for in "Roger and Me" to rebound Flint's economy.
Malls have stores.
Stores require money. |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 3232
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2008 - 4:37 pm: | |
I'll miss that dollar show movie theater in Universal Mall. Do they have any dollar shows left in Detroit? |
Onthe405
Member
Username: Onthe405
Post Number: 59
Registered: 11-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2008 - 7:28 pm: | |
^^^
^^^
Iheartthed, it says in the Detroit News piece that the Cinemark theater will remain as it is.
However, since the Mall will be refurbished (read the taxes/lease will go up) it remains to be seen if the dirt cheap admission will still be part of the ambiance.
A big yawn on the design. Yet another stucco formula big-box strip center, which will probably have a shorter lifespan then the original Mall. |
Lefty2
Member
Username: Lefty2
Post Number: 1441
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2008 - 9:27 pm: | |
I used to love malls as a teenager. I somewhat quit shopping at mall quite a few years ago. I pay a few more cents to buy from the local store whenever possible to help the locals. I still go to the big bulk buy stores now and then to get the deals thought. I'm like anyone, want to save a buck when I can. |
Wolverine
Member
Username: Wolverine
Post Number: 493
Registered: 04-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 25, 2008 - 12:06 am: | |
---"All these cities are moving towards having downtown shopping being centered around indoor malls. New York has a big mall next to Macy's which used to house A&S now Stern's; Michigan Ave in Chicago has more than you can count; Boston has Copley Square and Prudential. Reality is that people want a controlled corporate environment."---
None of the units in these malls are doing all that well in comparison to their street level counterparts. Yes food courts with a few shops around it do alright, but for the most part it's a dead planning concept. |
Danny
Member
Username: Danny
Post Number: 7420
Registered: 02-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 25, 2008 - 12:56 am: | |
Since the Metro Detroit area is gaining new strip malls and outdoor malls, Older malls are slowing dying out. If their anchor stores close. the mall dies. I'm glad that Universal Mall will be getting a face lift to a outdoor mall like Partridge Creek. |
Higgs1634
Member
Username: Higgs1634
Post Number: 553
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 25, 2008 - 9:32 am: | |
Not arguing with you Dan, but I have to point out the inconsistency of your statements.
quote:Or it could be that in its context, "Market Street" is just another subdivision, with the additional restriction that each building is intended to foster a small business. What's the connectivity to the surrounding built environment like?
You can't surround a subdivision by busy highways and expect it to be "urban", no matter what the buildings look like.
Understood, I would just reiterate, that the development was supposed to grow from market street to encompass a larger and more diverse area. The plan itself is some of the progressive "out of the box" thinking you're advocating, yet you appear to be dismissing it out of hand. I mean the developers could have just built stand alone condos and a strip mall. right? What you're advocating for Universal Mall appears to be the exact same thing that has been tried and failed in Shelby.
quote:How about a mall that's so progressive, it blends in with the surrounding area, includes housing and some office space, and isn't surrounded by a moat of parking? Hell, throw in a bus stop or two for all I care!
They couldn't build Shelby center in an existing neighborhood so they tried to do the whole thing from the ground up. Apparently there is zero market for such a development.
Warren is an older, lower income level version of Shelby. Instead of McMansion subdivisions, the houses are just cut from a smaller cookie cutter. It's virtually the same street planning. Subdivisions feed to bigger roads which feed to arteries. There is little to no commercial in the neighborhoods and there is no "main street" or Downtown unless you count that failed development on Van Dyke. If it didn't work in Shelby it certainly ain't gonna work in Warren. Besides, Universal Mall is just as cut off and isolated as Shelby Town Center albeit by smaller thoroughfares.
The painful reality of the situation is that Malls (either 'strip' or as "lifestyle" centers) aren't going to go away around here. It is not because people here are stupid or lazy, it is because if they are going to go shopping (either grocery or other) lugging their purchases a mile and half to their car (as in the shelby development..no parking) or schleping it home on a bus (that takes three times longer than driving to get them anywhere near home) simply isn't acceptable. People here are forced to live with 50 years of car based infrastructure and have to make do. Simple as that.
Until there is a massive investment in functional, cohesive, comprehensive, regional mass transit, nothing is going to change here. Until those regional transit lines are built there is not going to be a coalescing of investment and development around those lines that results in dense, walkable, neighborhoods. The region will continue to sprawl and go after cheaper places to build no matter what gas costs. Partridge Creek will have a roof slapped on it and a Great lakes crossing will be redeveloped as a lifestyle center LOONG before there is light rail on Woodward or any viable AA -Detroit rail link is developed. Why? Because this State and this region are lead by cowards and criminals.
If one, in order to be happy, simply MUST have dense, walkable, safe, neighborhoods where all their daily needs are within a short distance and they can ride the bus to work, they need to move to the few regions in the area that have those. Otherwise, get the hell out... for your own sanity because you will grow old and die a bitter person waiting for it to happen here. |
Detroitplanner
Member
Username: Detroitplanner
Post Number: 1684
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 25, 2008 - 12:25 pm: | |
Dan, I took examples of what I have seen of the malling of downtowns. Chill a bit. You seemed to ignore that fact that New York is a warmer place than Detroit, Chicago or Minneapolis. My examples were based on what I had read in earlier posts about downtowns. You can't mention every example of good and bad in every City in the world. People adapt to their environments. What works in one place may not work elsewhere.
I know New York is more than what is found on Harald Square, but you can't ignore that Harald Square is ground zero for retail in NYC and this is a thread about malls.
I suggest you do some reading of William White (Rediscovering the Central City) or Roberta Gratz regarding this phenomena.
http://www.pps.org/info/placem akingtools/placemakers/rbgratz
http://www.amazon.com/City-Red iscovering-William-H-Whyte/dp/ 0385262094
It seems to me that you are slamming the messenger and not the message. I am not an advocate for this sterility, I am however pointing out that this does exist and is a counter-productive force to good planning. Planning is not a wave the wand and say abracadbra process (God knows I wish it was sometimes), it involves very different schools of thought coming together to make decisions. Its not like engineering where there is a white and black, but it is more grey. |
Danny
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Username: Danny
Post Number: 7423
Registered: 02-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 25, 2008 - 1:15 pm: | |
First it's Tel-Twelve Mall. Then came Wonderland Mall. Now it's Universal Mall. Later Livonia Mall and Summit Place Mall. Older malls are dying, make way for the hipster malls.
Fairlane Mall in Dearborn had lost 2 anchor stores: Lord and Taylor and Sak's 5th Avenue. The building where Sak's used to be is torn down to build a exit and parking lot. This is Fairlane is going to survive? Fairlane needs to do something fast lure in family and hipster shoppers. |
Detroitrise
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Username: Detroitrise
Post Number: 2586
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 25, 2008 - 1:16 pm: | |
Ok, why not just have a urban shopping center (like Detroit)? Obviously our safe little suburban malls are fading away. People will need somewhere to shop.
Oh wait...
(Message edited by DetroitRise on June 25, 2008) |
Danindc
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Username: Danindc
Post Number: 4550
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 25, 2008 - 1:25 pm: | |
quote:You seemed to ignore that fact that New York is a warmer place than Detroit, Chicago or Minneapolis.
Yeah, New York is a whole SEVEN degrees warmer than Detroit on average in the winter months (but a lot more humid in the summer!). I've been in Times Square freezing my ass off with a high of 11 degrees, and there seemed to be no shortage of people milling around. Stop using weather as an excuse. Lord knows people on this forum generate enough excuses for Detroit as it is. |
Iheartthed
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Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 3239
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 25, 2008 - 1:35 pm: | |
Really, New York is not that much warmer than Detroit. The climates of each metropolis are much more alike than not. When you add Boston into the discussion it's on average 3 degrees warmer than Detroit. Not a big difference.
Not to mention that cold snaps that hit places like Detroit and Chicago usually make their way to New York and Boston.
And finally, your entire argument about the weather differences just falls a part when you take into account Toronto which is 5 to 6 degrees colder than Detroit, on average, during the winter months. |
Detroitplanner
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Username: Detroitplanner
Post Number: 1685
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 25, 2008 - 2:32 pm: | |
Danny, The spot where Saks was is going to be home to PF Changs and other chain foodstops that those yuppies just love. It should work better, as Dearborn, as nice as it is is not a really upscale place. It is however a place where business is done and tourists flock to. Both groups like having these overpriced chain eateries.
http://www.taubman.com/leasing /6.html
The L&T closure was part of an alignment that happened when Target sold Marshall Fields. It closed many stores in malls where the owner had two or more properties. It was compounded by the movement of stores in the wing so that Media Play could open a store in the mall. Unfortunately media play went under before that store could ever open, leaving that whole wing a ghost town.
Fairlane is a tough place to figure out. It is widely diverse in culture, gigantic in size, and more prone to economic dips than other malls. It has lost the alpha-dog status many years ago to 12 Oaks and to Somerset Mall. Its success came at the emptying of downtown and neighborhood shopping districts, and is now falling prey to the new big dogs. |
W_chicago
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Username: W_chicago
Post Number: 40
Registered: 01-2008
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 25, 2008 - 2:59 pm: | |
OMG I CAN'T WAIT! Maybe if I telleport to Ohio or Illinois to another lifestyle center, I won't be able to tell the difference because they all look the same and have the exact same corporate owned stores! YAYY I love homogenization! Ohhh, and maybe I can ride my bike here, considering oil will be 5 dollars by the time its built!•• OMGG. Not to mention this is EXACTLY what this area needs: more places to spend money!••• Hooray for Debt! Hip, Hip, Hooray!! Hooray for economic collapse! Hip, Hip, Hooray!! Hooray for investing to completely unsustainable future-less developments! Hip, Hip, Hooray!! I can't wait until 20 years, when this new lifestyle center is torn down for a new DEATH CENTER, yes. First there was shopping center, then there was lifestyle center, but now there is DEATH CENTER. Yepp, you get everything you need to kill and destroy and to die, from sweatshop made cloths, to environmentally harmfully products, to a massive parking lot to park our suburban assault vehicles that pollute the atmosphere and kill polar bears! Hip, Hip, Hooray! |
Detroitplanner
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Username: Detroitplanner
Post Number: 1686
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 25, 2008 - 3:31 pm: | |
Gee W Chicago you sound like me when I start ranting. |
Detroitnerd
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Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 2586
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 25, 2008 - 4:05 pm: | |
W_chicago: Are you being sarcastic? |
Richie
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Username: Richie
Post Number: 4
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 25, 2008 - 8:54 pm: | |
I am not from this part of town but the last few years have gone to many of the Thursday night cruisin's held at the mall. (Now across the street at the bowling ally) Never the less I still have a few memories of the place going back a few years, decades really. I distinctly remember one day when I and a few co-workers went there at lunch, we were on our way to Spencer’s for a few unusual cards and saw everyone standing out in front of Radio Shack. We went over to see what was going on and all were watching broadcasts of the Challenger disaster. Before that and still quite vivid in my memory was when sometime in the mid 70’s I went there with some model car guys who were visiting from Chicago and wanted to see the Detroit area hobby shops. Now this kind of "tour" would take about half a day but in the pre computer era it would take days. Unfortunately I did not take many pictures in back than. Anyway when we arrived at the main entrance there were several guys on scaffolds with sledge hammers pounding away at the gigantic mural of the universe which faced west. I could not believe what I was seeing and we all looked at this for a while and wondered why they were doing this because this mural being made up of thousands of tiny pieces of tile was absolutely stunning, it really was a fabulous work of art and probably the only significant thing Warren will ever have other than the original part of the GM Tech Center. Why they spent the time and money to do this and didn’t just cover it up is beyond me, more so why they didn’t just leave it there is even more bizarre because the place was and still is called Universal. |
Iheartthed
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Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 3240
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, June 26, 2008 - 11:09 am: | |
Atlantic Terminal in Brooklyn seems like a successful urban mall. It's well incorporated into the surrounding neighborhood. It doesn't have massive parking structures. It's also built over the largest subway hub in Brooklyn, as well as the Brooklyn terminal for the Long Island Railroad. |
Lnfant
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Username: Lnfant
Post Number: 15
Registered: 05-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, June 26, 2008 - 11:54 am: | |
a city center is born:
In the Maryland suburbs of DC, Rockville, a city of roughly 49,000 residents, now has a city center. When I went there, I was impressed that families were spending time there, not rushing somewhere else. The energy was contagious. The city had been scattered before this effort.
The Rockville website is comprehensive, incl plans for bicycle paths. Everything below the urls is pasted from it:
http://www.rockvillemd.gov/tow ncenter/
http://www.rockvillemd.gov/mas terplan/towncenter/
This past May, Rockville Town Square was awarded “Best Mixed Use Project” and “Best Smart Growth Master Plan.”
WHAT
Residential, retail, restaurant, cultural, library, business incubator and other public uses.
12.5 acres (Phase I of 60-acre Town Center Master Plan). |
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