Discuss Detroit » Archives - July 2008 » Report: Metro Detroit is Not Desirable For High-Tech « Previous Next »
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Digitalvision
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Username: Digitalvision

Post Number: 907
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Friday, June 27, 2008 - 10:14 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

According to an electronics association report (heard on WDET, went looking for link and couldn't find), apparently Detroit is at the bottom of the list for high-tech companies.

The reasons they stated was that there wasn't enough in the research university area as well as the skills former auto folks have do not translate to the skills needed for high-tech (that, I can believe).

This is a bit of a blow to places like NextEnergy and Automation Alley who are doing yeoman's work trying to attract and build high-tech businesses in different fields.

Thoughts? I thought we had this great university system according to our government/governor. I'll keep trolling around off and on looking for a link or the report.
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Iheartthed
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Username: Iheartthed

Post Number: 3251
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Friday, June 27, 2008 - 10:26 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

I thought we had this great university system according to our government/governor.



Oops.
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Detroitrise
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Username: Detroitrise

Post Number: 2610
Registered: 09-2007
Posted on Friday, June 27, 2008 - 10:29 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well, if we don't get these high tech jobs quick (preferably in a central location), our fate is sealed.
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Mackinaw
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Username: Mackinaw

Post Number: 5037
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Posted on Friday, June 27, 2008 - 10:41 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The universities are there-- that's not why we're low on thier list. It's for the same reason that everyone else shuns us. People want a functional region with great opportunities for urban life. Only the most open-minded and patient people see beyond the thick layer of stereotypes to see that Detroit has/can have this, but at the present moment, no one is particularly inspired by our transitioning city and our boring metropolitan area lacking rapid transit. Businesses are created by people, and people want to be where they want to live. If they have the talent to make money in place a, place b, and place c (all of which have similar tax structures etc), they'll choose to live and open a business in the most inspiring or trendy place. It ain't southeast Michigan in most people's minds.
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Swingline
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Username: Swingline

Post Number: 1145
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Friday, June 27, 2008 - 11:11 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Mackinaw's post is spot on. There is little difference between the "skills" and/or the high-tech potential of the folks in this region and those in any other region that has a similar socio-economic profile. Our college graduate numbers lag only slightly simply because of the large percentage of recent graduates leaving the state as soon as they receive their degrees.
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Perfectgentleman
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Username: Perfectgentleman

Post Number: 7306
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Friday, June 27, 2008 - 11:19 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yep, its lack of light rail. Not the enormous dropout rate, illiteracy in the city or crime that keeps private investment away. Its all about the transit! What earthly reason would a high tech company have to move to DETROIT? Maybe to get an MEDC grant, thats about it.
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Track75
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Username: Track75

Post Number: 2731
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Friday, June 27, 2008 - 11:21 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

People want a functional region with great opportunities for urban life.

quote:

If they have the talent to make money in place a, place b, and place c (all of which have similar tax structures etc), they'll choose to live and open a business in the most inspiring or trendy place.

You're simply projecting your young 20-something attitude on everyone else and you're wrong. Was Bill Gates going to afterhours clubs and riding the subway? No, he was getting his uber-nerd thing on with singular focus.

The tech boom in Boston and Silicon Valley didn't happen because they were trendy and inspiring locales. If you look at where the actual workplaces were for the tech companies that made "Boston" and "Silicon Valley" synonymous with high-tech they weren't in downtown Boston or San Francisco. They were in the generic suburbs of Boston around Route 128, the suburban ring road, and in the south Bay Area in the nondescript sprawl of former fruit orchards like San Jose, Sunnyvale, Cupertino and the like. If you haven't lived there, think Novi, Farmington Hills or Chesterfield Township.

They didn't have access to mass transit, they didn't have trendy shops, cool restaurants or great bar life. They had techy nerds, many middle-aged or older, many working for large corporations, who made technological breakthroughs and then split off to do the entrepreneurial thing. That begot a second and third wave of spinoffs and created an environment where working 80 hours a week for at a startup for the chance at a big stock option payday was the holy grail. Dream big and likely fail. Multiple times.

Contrast that with the still dominant SE MI culture where the holy grail is "gettin' a union job at Fords", or for the real strivers, working at GM until you reach unclassified level and get a company car.

We have the academic sources of tech talent that are close to what Boston and the Bay Area have with MIT and Stanford. Michigan isn't as good but it's close enough in quality and larger in quantity that there are plenty of capable PhDs being produced there to create and staff the next round of high-tech companies. But since we've always been a lunch bucket town those brainiacs go to where to high-tech companies congregate and that's not in Michigan.

Our culture isn't consistent with being a high-tech state. It doesn't look like that'll change anytime soon. Pinning our hopes on transit or urban vitality is naive. It might help some but it's a tiny piece of the overall puzzle.
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Saintme
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Username: Saintme

Post Number: 156
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Friday, June 27, 2008 - 11:26 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Perfectgentleman,

I don't think we're talking specifically about the city of Detroit, rather the entire boring, uncooperative region.
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Flyingj
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Username: Flyingj

Post Number: 242
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Friday, June 27, 2008 - 11:57 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Track75, you're wrong. Silicon Valley happend because of Stanford. 2 graduates of Stanford, Hewlett & Packard took advantage of a program to prevent brain-drain & created the entire Silicon Valley culture. Period. There's a lotta hand-wringing how U of M fails to do the same thing Stanford is where it is because it was built out in the (then) boonies on the grounds of Leland Sranford's horsefarm(the school I went to was built half upon William Kellogg's vacation home-also a horse farm, it's in the grant from the Kellogg family that the school must always hold horse shows, & they do-and half upon the land of the 1st person Nixon defeated politically. Boston's tech has a lot to do with their campuses, mostly MIT. Why the State of Michigan has got ads with Jeff Daniels extolling Michigan's tech & research when that might not be true I've no idea. Blame the unions?
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Sirrealone
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Username: Sirrealone

Post Number: 172
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Friday, June 27, 2008 - 12:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The first thing that the 'techie' graduates do upon getting their degree is get the hell out of Michigan. And, yes, they do head to 'cooler' cities or growing and prospering areas. They move to Chicago, or Boston, or the Carolinas, places that are all growing. Bottom line, they don't stay here and that's why the finding of this report doesn't surprise me.

And while the unions themselves aren't to blame, I think it is a somewhat valid argument to say that the union mentality here does play a factor. We're not a progressive, forward-thinking state. Too many residents here are still clinging onto the past, and younger people aren't wired to think like that, and so they flock to places that are more in line with their thinking.
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Professorscott
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Username: Professorscott

Post Number: 1407
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Friday, June 27, 2008 - 12:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I know a guy who's a tech manager at a software place in Oakland County, and they would like to hire, but they can't convince college grads to come to metro Detroit to work, so they're probably going to move the whole shebang to North Carolina.

What strikes me about Portland or Boston or Toronto is that a young person has a lot of lifestyle choices. For living quarters: starter home in the city or the inner 'burbs, loft downtown, apartment in one of the city neighborhoods. For the ride to work: drive a car, or use the bike lanes in the street, or ride the train.

The Detroit region, it strikes me, does not offer the same choices. There's not a lot of nice living space downtown yet, though that seems to be improving. The city neighborhoods are not, for the most part, an attractive option because of the decrepit housing stock and the crime. You more or less have to drive to work, which means you need a car whether you can afford to own one or not.

If we actually want to have high tech industry, it's not enough to come up with a cutesy name like "automation alley" and put signs on I-696. You have to give companies a reason to want to be here, and if they can't attract people to take high-paying jobs because they don't want to live in your region, you will set up shop somewhere else.
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Charlottepaul
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Username: Charlottepaul

Post Number: 2570
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Friday, June 27, 2008 - 12:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"People want a functional region with great opportunities for urban life."

Pretty sure Detroit is about as "urban" as it gets; then again that might depend on how you define that word.
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Izzadore
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Username: Izzadore

Post Number: 141
Registered: 11-2006
Posted on Friday, June 27, 2008 - 12:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I don't think the issue is High tech. It's IT. Engineers seem to do alright in Michigan. At least all the engineers I know... It seems that if you want to be an engineer Mich. or Calif. are your best bet.

IT (High tech - for the sake of this forum) is good everywhere but Michigan

That's why I ain't in Mich now fo 'sho! just not a lot to choose from.
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Detroitplanner
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Username: Detroitplanner

Post Number: 1689
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Friday, June 27, 2008 - 1:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

According to businessweek, Detroit ranks pretty high.
http://images.businessweek.com /ss/08/06/0623_tech_friendly/3 8.htm

The big problem is that with so many out of work here, that getting a job is much more difficult than it would be elsewhere. Does that mean competition sends those who can't compete at higher levels elsewhere?
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Texorama
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Username: Texorama

Post Number: 245
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Friday, June 27, 2008 - 1:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Check the statistics. We're below average in percentage of college graduates, and there's still, even with everything that's happened, a pervasive attitude that it's OK to ridicule people who think education is important. Whatever the guv's problems, I think she made a start on changing this, but there's a long way to go.

http://www.census.gov/acs/www/ Products/Ranking/2002/R02T040. htm
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Mackinaw
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Username: Mackinaw

Post Number: 5038
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Posted on Friday, June 27, 2008 - 2:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Track75, I did drop in the urban living part and you correctly identified the mindset behind it. That was actually not crucial to my point, though. I will say that it might speak for much of the high-tech workforce.

That aside, I just think metro Detroit (city plus region) does strike anyone as glamorous and/or user-friendly and/or particularly beautiful, and excluding those who might have particular loyalties, or a strange interest in helping Detroit (like many of us here), people or groups of people starting companies won't choose this area over other areas of similar stature and business climates. Tangent to my urban-life phraseology is the idea that a great center city make a region better off. I'm not saying that we don't have this effect here, because Detroit has a ton of things constantly going on, and its big-city status puts us head and shoulders over many other places, but it could be much better if Detroit was a real center of activity that the whole region turned to, with the option of living in the city a realistic possibility for all types of people, and with a basic level of services like transit. Yeah, I know Silicon Valley isn't the most beautiful, traditional urban realm (there was a unique synergy of factors that sparked its boom), but it is in close relation to multiple urban centers.

Detroit is distinctive in many ways, but work needs to be done to broaden its appeal. Further, regional cooperation is neccesary, and the City needs to become the centerpiece of an integrated region. Then people will notice the area, and be proud to call it the home for themselves and their business, choosing it over other comparable places. Quality of life matters, and this can be documented by economic studies which take QoL and other perception issues into account.
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Detroitplanner
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Username: Detroitplanner

Post Number: 1690
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Posted on Friday, June 27, 2008 - 2:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Tex, you don't need a college degree to be technically savvy. I'm pretty sure Bill Gates does not have one, and there are lots of non-college schools where one can learn computer skills.

I'm not saying that education is unimportant, but I don't think number of college graduates is a perfect indicator of technical jobs. What if a large portion of the college grads got degrees in social work or sociology?

I would agree that we need to turn this around, because we just don't have enough people here with the right skills to compete. Some folks have those skills and are doing well. If you compare what our high tech jobs compared to other areas we are doing great considering the metro is slightly under the national cost of living.
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Danny
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Username: Danny

Post Number: 7437
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Posted on Friday, June 27, 2008 - 2:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What! Metro Detroit is Not Desirable For High-Tech? Is that because the folks who are living here are mostly black, hillbilly, Arab, high school and college drop-outs can't find any work but sell drugs, do crime, drink liquor sell our bodies for sex, bicker about our leaders, people playing race cards.

Those tech geeks will have to use to our culture otherwise find some city or state to your liking.
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Drankin21
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Username: Drankin21

Post Number: 259
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Friday, June 27, 2008 - 2:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

?
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_sj_
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Username: _sj_

Post Number: 2290
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Friday, June 27, 2008 - 3:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

I know a guy who's a tech manager at a software place in Oakland County, and they would like to hire, but they can't convince college grads to come to metro Detroit to work, so they're probably going to move the whole shebang to North Carolina.



Either they are demanding too may requirement for a college grad to met or the job is too low paying.

The lack of jobs for college grads leads to a drain in young talent. Companies then demand requirements the young talent can't met becuase they are too green and the professionals have already moved out since their were no jobs to get with their skills out of college.

I see way to many job postings by someone in HR demanding 4-5 certifications for a low rung job. Not going to happen.

quote:

Tex, you don't need a college degree to be technically savvy. I'm pretty sure Bill Gates does not have one, and there are lots of non-college schools where one can learn computer skills.



The problem with the IT industry in places like Michigan is anyone who uses a computer likes to consider themselves IT or classify the job as IT. How many other states would have jobs like Admin Asst being listed as IT since it required some computer skills.
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Digitalvision
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Username: Digitalvision

Post Number: 908
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Posted on Friday, June 27, 2008 - 5:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Professorscott - It is true to keep talent in this region you need to pay a premium - the old DCX did it and so do other firms I know.

But as to Automation Alley - it's not just cutesy signs. As someone who knows a lot of members and is a member, I can tell you it's boosted my business by over 20% and provides a ton of events and networking opportunities (almost one every day) as well as puts together foreign trade missions for companies based anywhere in the 10-county Southeastern Michigan region. They ain't perfect, but they're a lot more than signs and anyone serving B2B should consider joining.
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Parkguy
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Username: Parkguy

Post Number: 298
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Posted on Friday, June 27, 2008 - 5:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I heard the new Detroit Renaissance podcast today with guest Chris Illich. He cited numbers that said that the region has the 5th highest concentration of creative sector workers in the country. I've heard other numbers that say among engineers alone, we have something like 35,000 in the region. We have the smarts, we have the universities, we are putting together the incubators and the venture capital part of the equation... we just have to rebuild a city to go with it. We can have all of the people we need, but the energy and growth will come when we get our density back. It will take a while, and it will be spotty at first, but it will come.
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Richard_bak
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Username: Richard_bak

Post Number: 29
Registered: 04-2008
Posted on Friday, June 27, 2008 - 6:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

High tech growth in this area?! I just want the revolving-door army of workers at my favorite donut shop--all proud products of the local school systems-- to get my order right. I ask for a dozen TimBits, and more likely than not I'll get 10, 14, 17, or even 20. Making change is even more fun!
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Richard_bak
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Username: Richard_bak

Post Number: 30
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Posted on Friday, June 27, 2008 - 6:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

...and as long as I keep coming out ahead in the TimBits department, I'll keep coming back.
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English
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Username: English

Post Number: 746
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Friday, June 27, 2008 - 6:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The coming energy and climate crises will take care of all this long-term. The Sun Belt just can't sustain large numbers of people indefinitely. They haven't got the natural resources.

One of my friends, when I told her I wouldn't move to Las Vegas because a desert is only supposed to support a limited number of people, and the Las Vegans have enough people drinking their water already, said to me: "They'll put a straw into the Great Lakes and suck it to the southwest if they need to!"

I disagree. My grandmother fled Florida 61 years ago partly because of the climate. That was before air conditioning was pervasive, and before Doppler radar alerted people that a hurricane was coming days in advance. She came up here for the water and the climate. I thought she was nuts until I lived in Florida for nearly a half decade. Without A/C, the "great weather" so many seek is just a fairy tale. It's hot and muggy and awful much of the year, with lots of bugs, the seasons don't change. And A/C is about to get a hell of a lot more expensive.

At least prior to natural gas, the North did quite all right making it through the winter... not sure these other places will do quite so well with their summers. Hello, malaria and other tropical maladies (which are already returning, unfortunately).

The heavily populated areas of California have the best natural climate, hands down. They also are prone to earthquakes and wildfires.

I don't know about the rest of you, but if the 21st century challenge is truly that of a changing environment, then I think it's high time we stop subsidizing people and businesses to live in swamps, deserts, sandbars and friggin' SoCal mountainsides. Our ancestors were much wiser. New Orleans is a case in point. The oldest part of the city was JUST FINE after a Category 5 hurricane and the breaking of the levees. That's because no one sane in the 1600s, 1700s, or 1800s would have built up areas like the Ninth Ward. But in the 20th century, human technology has us thinking we're gods.

We're not.

Sit tight, SE Michigan. In a world of skyrocketing gas prices, an uncertain global situation, and climate change, you're gonna start looking very good indeed. And no worries about the lack of a public transit system. In a world of $8+/gallon gas, the arguments that people prose now will seem pretty darn petty.

Also, another bit of conventional wisdom I'd like to challenge: who says manufacturing isn't ever coming back? Until the Singularity happens and humans upload their consciousness onto machines, we will need material goods. About the most idioitc economic and strategic defense policy we could have mustered was sending all our manufacturing to other countries. That, too, will change in the brave new world that is at the doors.

In the short term, this region is suffering. But remember, folks, when you turn your gaze to the areas of this country that are "prospering" off a Wal-Mart, McWorld economy, all that glitters isn't gold.
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Vivadetroit
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Username: Vivadetroit

Post Number: 31
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Posted on Friday, June 27, 2008 - 9:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

richard, which tim hortons do you go to? mine never counts wrong. guess i am going to the WRONG tim hos! hahah
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Richard_bak
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Username: Richard_bak

Post Number: 33
Registered: 04-2008
Posted on Friday, June 27, 2008 - 9:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Viva, the one on Michigan Ave. just east of Telegraph. The donuts are probably better at Dunkin' but I'm fascinated by the parade of parolees that double-toast my everything bagels at TH. These guys never mess up the order. All those years of making melted-cheese sandwiches on radiators in The Big House have evidently paid off.
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Detroitrise
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Username: Detroitrise

Post Number: 2619
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Posted on Friday, June 27, 2008 - 10:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Eh, I like Krispy Kreme better.

I just hat ehe nearest dealer is in Troy! :-(
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Jb3
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Username: Jb3

Post Number: 387
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Friday, June 27, 2008 - 10:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

We're simply just not marketing the Woodward Corridor properly.
It has everything that the Techies are looking for, but they don't see it due to our dismal self awareness.
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Richard_bak
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Username: Richard_bak

Post Number: 34
Registered: 04-2008
Posted on Friday, June 27, 2008 - 10:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Agreed...Krispy Kreme is better than Dunkin. Just not one close enough to make the drive worthwhile. Either way, I'm looking for my arteries to be completely blocked by 2015 unless I start adding Rooto to my coffee.
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Cinderpath
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Username: Cinderpath

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Posted on Friday, June 27, 2008 - 10:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Good post English-
Manufacturing will indeed return, people forget globalism is only possible with cheap energy. Remove this input, and you negate any savings in off-shoring labor. It is already happening in the steel industry.
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Jb3
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Username: Jb3

Post Number: 391
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Posted on Friday, June 27, 2008 - 10:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

English,

check out Jim Kunstler's website

http://www.kunstler.com
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Wazootyman
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Username: Wazootyman

Post Number: 377
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Friday, June 27, 2008 - 11:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I dunno, any time I get on a code-writing kick the only thing I'm worried about is how late the pizza place delivers.

Also, as far as I know, Silicon Valley is in the suburbs.
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Mackinaw
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Username: Mackinaw

Post Number: 5042
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Posted on Friday, June 27, 2008 - 11:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jb3, you might be right about the Woodward corridor. And yeah, it's all perception.

Kunstler is interesting, and often right.
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English
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Username: English

Post Number: 748
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Saturday, June 28, 2008 - 12:37 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks for the link, Jb3. Interesting stuff indeed...
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Mp2dtw
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Username: Mp2dtw

Post Number: 1
Registered: 06-2008
Posted on Saturday, June 28, 2008 - 1:11 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

WSU & U-M are highly esteemed research universities in the world of academe. I don't buy the education or skills factor.

I would very well buy that our quality of life repels and expels many of the people we need to attract and retain. We have a city that can't get its act together and suburbs that refuse to cooperate with anyone else for the greater good. I'm sure these points have been discussed here before, but I think that the only way for Greater Detroit to begin to dig its way out of this mess is to do two things:

rail mass transit (both urban/local and commuter lines)

Merge Wayne, Oakland & Macomb Counties into one super-municipality, like Toronto, Greater London, Louisville, Miami-Dade, Indianapolis, etc. It would have to include concessions to little fish who don't want to become tiny fish in a huge sea. I don't see our region realizing half its potential without merging to pool resources, to restore adequate funding to our core city and removing people like Mayor Kilpatrick, Exec Patterson and Councillor Conyers who put ego before progress. I doubt any of those three would be able to hold significant leadership positions in a merged Detroit.

Otherwise, we flounder and it's every man for himself. And my first order of business is getting my city to change its stupid name from Westland to South Bloomfield or Grosse Pointe Heath to try to keep our values from falling too much further.
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Lefty2
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Username: Lefty2

Post Number: 1461
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Posted on Saturday, June 28, 2008 - 1:29 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think if most company presidents read the crap here they would not want to locate because of the opinions of most people posting this junk.

They want open minded honest thoughtful forward looking intelligent people. There are many but there are also too many who aren't.
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Richard_bak
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Username: Richard_bak

Post Number: 35
Registered: 04-2008
Posted on Saturday, June 28, 2008 - 9:01 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sorry. I'm just in search of the perfect donut....
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Digitalvision
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Username: Digitalvision

Post Number: 910
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Posted on Saturday, June 28, 2008 - 9:44 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Found an article that briefly discusses it, and that 51 of 60 cities gained tech jobs while Detroit lost them. Some excerpts.. just as an FYI, the AeA's membership includes companies like Google, Citrix, Yahoo, Intel, Dell, and Comerica Bank.

quote:

In a report being released Tuesday, the American Electronics Association found 51 of the top 60 U.S. cybercities -- those with the most technology workers -- added high-tech jobs in 2006. The report also found the average technology industry wage was 87 percent higher than the average private sector salary.



quote:

But not all cities added jobs in 2006, with Detroit and Miami-Fort Lauderdale in Florida among those that shed high-tech workers.



quote:

To remain competitive, U.S. cities need to improve the quality of elementary and high school education -- particularly in math and science -- support research universities, and invest in broadband networks and other critical infrastructure.



Original article source: http://www.mlive.com/business/ index.ssf/2008/06/nation_adds_ tech_jobs_while_de.html
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Lowell
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Username: Lowell

Post Number: 4873
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Posted on Saturday, June 28, 2008 - 9:59 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Welcome to the forum Mp2dtw. I totally agree with you. Metropolitan turf wars that result in the dumping almost all of our problems on the City of Detroit with few of the tax assets are killing all of us. A hollow tree is not a healthy tree, no matter how lovely the leaves on the outer branches may appear.

The nature of much of the tech industry is that much of it does not have to be localized. At a minimum all one needs is a laptop, cell phone and and broadband connection. There is a growing and thriving community of small tech based businesses, ours included, in our international metropolis. We could do our business anywhere and, as in our case, the big majority of our customers often are not even located in the metro or automotive related.

So why here? At the bottom line, low cost of living and business space are all very attractive for this sector which quietly employs thousands. Like it or hate it, the Granholm administration has been very proactive in the push for information-based business [and with support of the opposition] and many opportunities exist to support it. Add to that the ties of heartstrings and family, a big city center with lots of art, culture, history, sports, entertainment, top notch international airport and great universities make our region an inviting setting.
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Mackinaw
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Posted on Saturday, June 28, 2008 - 10:08 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lefty, I hope you're talking about the donut posts and not the regional cooperation posts.

Welcome Mp2dtw-- good ideas. I don't agree that a pure merger would be good (because i think certain types of taxes paid ought to stay local-- i.e. within a few blocks of you-- and I fear services declining across the board), but any creative system that makes at least some interdependance, and incentive to help the center city, would be fine.
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Digitalvision
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Posted on Saturday, June 28, 2008 - 11:45 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Merging is just not in the culture, and I don't see it happening.

It's amazing how much people do not refer to themselves as "Detroiters," but refer to themselves by their suburb, and lie about which suburb they're in, constantly. I think part of the reason why the rest of the country looks at us so cock-eyed. Was talking to one guy who was actually from Madison Heights, but told everyone Royal Oak - because "he didn't want to be perceived as white trash." Another who added a footnote at the bottom of their Pontiac address.. "it's only a Pontiac mailing address, we're actually in Bloomfield." Happens all the time.
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Gaz
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Username: Gaz

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Posted on Saturday, June 28, 2008 - 12:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There is a large high-tech area just north of Tucson called Oro Valley, and it is thriving. The two universities closest are University of Arizona in Tucson, and Arizona State in Tempe, near Phoenix. These schools are no better than Wayne State and University of Michigan. If the Detroit innercity is not to their liking (which is a shame - Detroit needs help) there are plenty or suburbs - like Oro Valley - to choose from.

I don't understand why race should play a role. It doesn't matter to me if a European, African, Asian made my computer, as long as it works. I'll bet there are plenty of unemployed people in Michigan who would love to be trained for jobs like that, and would make great employees.
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Johnlodge
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Posted on Saturday, June 28, 2008 - 12:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

http://www.toledoblade.com/app s/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/200806 22/NEWS34/806220370

This article discusses a report in which Michigan ranks 26th, but from Ohio's point of view. It explains why we haven't fallen in the ranks as much in this study EVEN THOUGH it now excludes Auto Manufacturing as "High-Tech", because of a more educated workforce, and presence of so much research and development .

quote:

In the quest to build a knowledge-based economy, other states are leaving Ohio in the basement, a study by the respected Milken Institute says.
Ohio took a dive in the report - from 24th in the nation in 2004 to 36th - in large part because the Milken Institute decided that auto manufacturing is not high-tech.



quote:

While Ohio saw a large drop in its ranking, another heavily auto-centric state - Michigan - fell only one spot, from 25th to 26th, despite the change in methodology.
That's because the auto headquarters centered in Detroit invest heavily in research and development. And Ann Arbor, home of the University of Michigan, has seen a boom in technology-related business.
"Ohio has long been a hub of manufacturing and industry, but as those jobs continue to disappear, a new approach is needed," the study states. "Michigan has also suffered serious manufacturing losses due to job cuts by the 'Big Three' automakers, but it has been buoyed by the presence of relatively more educated workers who were better able to transition to other jobs through retaining programs."



This article also makes me notice how each state's media will take any report and find a way to make it sound more negative for their own state. I bet if we were #1 in something, it would barely make the news here.
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Johnlodge
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Posted on Saturday, June 28, 2008 - 12:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

By the way..

quote:

That's because the auto headquarters centered in Detroit invest heavily in research and development.



OUT OF A JOB YET? KEEP..

Nah I'll let Buyamerican say it.
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Bibs
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Username: Bibs

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Posted on Saturday, June 28, 2008 - 12:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The point below might not translate into actual work being performed in Michigan but the auto industry is more IT centric than most people realize.

Q&A: GM CIO Ralph Szygenda on outsourcing, IT's importance
Patrick Thibodeau

June 07, 2005 (Computerworld) General Motors Corp. CIO Ralph Szygenda is in the midst of negotiating the largest corporate outsourcing deal in history, worth about $15 billion.

http://www.computerworld.com/p rintthis/2005/0,4814,102316,00 .html
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Jimaz
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Posted on Saturday, June 28, 2008 - 1:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks for the interesting article, Bibs.

Note however that it's three years old.
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Flyingj
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Posted on Saturday, June 28, 2008 - 2:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Gaz, yeah I thought Don Diamond had a lot to do with Oro Valley...Albuquerque's been no slouch either-starting with the flukey invention of the 1st commercially available home computer & ending up with Tesla Motors & a big chunk of Oracle
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Gaz
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Posted on Saturday, June 28, 2008 - 3:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yeah, I should have mentioned Albuquerque, and maybe Austin, too. The thing is, if these cities can do it, why not Detroit? God knows, the Detroit area has lots of able-bodied, intelligent workers needing jobs (or better yet, careers.) And there are great universities there to supply eager graduates who would like to stay in the area. Others can be trained.
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Sean_of_detroit
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Username: Sean_of_detroit

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Posted on Saturday, June 28, 2008 - 3:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Part one of two.

You guys really make some good points. I have some things to add.

Metaphor time...

I'm watching a show right now about why one casino on the Las Vegas strip does so much better than it's neighbors. The jist of the show, is that it all has to do with design. Marketing, management, and the like are important, but don't hold a a candle to design.

I think you could use this as a metaphor towards Metro Detroit. It applies to areas of the city against areas of the city, as well as certain suburbs against other suburbs.

So what was the biggest factor other than location? Well, density was a big one. The main one (and the whole point) was that the design fit what the customer wants. That can easily be transferred to what Metro Detroit communities do better than others. Livonia is an inner suburb that always seems (until the past couple years)to do at least slightly better than the others around it. Why? They have nothing the others can't replicate. Many do try to copy them, with no avail (Westland comes to mind). In the way of business, Livonia has always catered heavily to businesses, big and small. They have regulations and red tape, but work to get business owners through that maze. Westland (and Detroit) do not do this. From my own personnel experience, those two have often treated business as expendable. If you want to open there, it is their way, or the highway. They are slow, and love to give fines too. This is a problem in all aspects of their operations.

Our electrical/construction business (and many we work with), will not do work in Westland. It is just to time consuming. That, and the fees and red tape mean we just aren't making enough profit. The system is not designed around the business/customer. The same is true about residents, schools, and much more. In Detroit, if you have to report a crime, the cops will laugh at you expecting to get more than what they call a "typical Detroit response". They do things there way, and if you don't like it, oh well. The system is designed to promote this behavior, rather than punish or prevent it. It is not designed for the people... it's businesses and residents.

Detroit in general is not tailored to cater to it's people. It's designed to only look after it's existing system, and it's treasury/financial needs. Contrary to what many say, suburbanites taking on Detroit's problems may help, but not much. It is (I feel) not true that suburbanites would not put up with the current system and change it. They are no different from many people in Detroit who are trying to change it. More means little. You are actually right that they wouldn't put up with it, they already did all they could. They either left, or stayed and fight only to get frustrated and either leave defeated, or got used to the current system and design.

Change is tough. The fact that the city has such a large amount of design flaws and policies that do not cater to the people is overwhelming. This is what the both suburbanites and urbanites see when they vent their frustrations. Detroit doesn't care about them, it's obvious. That was framed beautifully in that Op-Ed topic (search for "Op Ed Leaving Detroit" on this site). The view that they seem to have is to "get used to it. This is Detroit, so you shouldn't expect better... Don't like it? Then go hit 8 Mile."

Bye... so long, nice to know ya.

This is where we are right now. We are trying to do the impossible... or so it seems to many. The task is big, and has been in place for decades. I can understand why some think we have completely lost our minds.

Detroit doesn't have an image problem because of past crime, riots, racism, or the economy. The 1967 is not why Detroit is in the condition it is in. Detroit is in that condition because of the way it is NOW. As much as we complain about it, and love to place the blame, Kilpatrick, Conyers, and others behavior doesn't even matter. I argue that none of the candidates and replacements plan on changing the system anyway. Some don't even know that it's a problem.

Detroit is simply not user friendly. There is a lack of IT jobs because the operations of Metro Detroit as a whole, is not designed to benefit it's residents, businesses, or visitors. Check out my wedding thread a little ways down the page (Belle Isle Wedding Questions). That is what is happening with a ton of things in this city and region. Just like The Girly thinks it is ludicrous to deal with that, many business owners, employees, and families think the same when deciding where to locate.
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Digitalvision
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Post Number: 913
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Posted on Saturday, June 28, 2008 - 5:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sean of Detroit,

Fascinating post, about the "now."

I think we can't discount the past, but no doubt, if Detroit (and other municipalities) followed a more Zen-like approach (as after all, one of the thoughts is to live in the now) things would turn around quickly.

After all, the government in Detroit is trying to right previous wrongs; many in the suburbs are playing off the fear of the past. Of course, you cannot forget history or you're doomed to repeat it; however, if there could be a lot more "now" in this region we'd be a lot better off.
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Mp2dtw
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Username: Mp2dtw

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Registered: 06-2008
Posted on Saturday, June 28, 2008 - 8:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sean,

I've never owned or managed a business, but I've had a few discussions with businessmen. Before I completely doubt what you said, I'd like to know the specifics on what Westland requires--and why you think they do. Nearly every chat I've had with an entrepreneur has essentially told me the same thing: We'll cry about taxation and regulation in the same way everyone complains about taxation. But the truth is that our regulations and taxes (comparatively) are minimal, if not too few. If you think otherwise, try doing business in France.

When some Michiganders cry that we need to be more business-friendly and I look at which states are on the packets of software and hardware I buy, I don't see a correlation. What do California, Washington and Massachusetts do that you'd consider more business-friendly than Michigan? What I do see is that San Francisco, Boston and Seattle (despite being far more costly) are cities nearly any sane person would prefer to Detroit. They're cleaner, safer, far more livable and they value education and culture in a way I'm not sure Detroiters do. I'm not trying to beat up Detroit. I want to see it come back more than anyone I've ever met. The only way I think it'll happen is if we stop pointing fingers, pull the plug on ideologically rigid thinking (which is as hard for this left-winger as anyone) and figure out what needs doing and how to go about doing it.

Digitalvision, As far as cooperation not being a part of our culture, I'd agree. Then again, the thought of gay marriage didn't really occur to me until the past several years. Ten or twenty years ago, the very mention probably would've made me laugh. Now I see it as part of the American promise of life, liberty & the pursuit of happiness. I wonder what we'll see in the next two decades that aren't a part of our culture. I hope that metro Detroit surprises me--I doubt it will.

Mackinac & Lowell, thanks for the welcome.

As for another interesting subtheme of this conversation: When I'm outside metro Detroit, I say that I'm from Detroit. Within metro Detroit, I say Westland. Anyone who judges based on one of those statements isn't worth knowing.
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Erikd
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Username: Erikd

Post Number: 1032
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Posted on Sunday, June 29, 2008 - 1:21 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

You're simply projecting your young 20-something attitude on everyone else and you're wrong. Was Bill Gates going to afterhours clubs and riding the subway? No, he was getting his uber-nerd thing on with singular focus.....

Our culture isn't consistent with being a high-tech state. It doesn't look like that'll change anytime soon. Pinning our hopes on transit or urban vitality is naive. It might help some but it's a tiny piece of the overall puzzle.




Track75,

You bring great discussion and valid points every time you post.

I don't necessarily disagree with any of your statements, but I think that there are bigger issues at play here...

Things like mass transit and urban vitality are not "magic bullets" that will fix all of our problems, but they are strong indicators of the overall health and general mindset of our metro region.

The fact that we don't have a mass transit line running up Woodward is a deterrent to some high-tech businesses and investors. The fact that we don't have a mass transit line running up Woodward, because rampant racial segregation and mistrust has destroyed all hope of regional cooperation, is a deterrent to most high-tech businesses and investors.
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Sean_of_detroit
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Username: Sean_of_detroit

Post Number: 960
Registered: 03-2008
Posted on Sunday, June 29, 2008 - 9:33 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Agreed about History. But, it's value is in it's application to the present.


Welcome Mp2dtw!

I think there is nothing wrong with doubting. Westland is notorious for their red tape. Westland is very picky about things. It really is just a our way or the highway attitude. MY favorite example (besides the bizarre building codes) is a pizza place I used to work at on Newburgh and I think Joy. They weren't doing so well, and wanted to go into serving hand dipped ice cream. They struck up a deal with Guernsey Farms, and started to go to work on the new section that would house the ice cream portion. They filed all the necessary paper work and such. Every single time they came out, they found something bizarre wrong. I would say the inspectors were on a power trip if I didn't know better.

One problem was that they had a can of compressed air. It was waaay in the back of a supply closet, and regularly used as a legitimate cleaning supply for the office computer keyboard, as well as the cash register's keys. He took a look at it and could not figure out what it was, or why it was there. He said nothing, and they ended up getting some bizarre fine (something about unnecessary cleaning supplies... they tell you what and how much of certain things you can have on site). That was the health inspector. They also was something wrong with the appearance of the fridge. It was supposed to be stainless steel he said (we never found anything written about this anywhere). Another inspector (for the construction) fined them for filing prints after equipment was on site. The new display freezer was on site, but stored in the back room until the plumbing and electrical passed inspection. They not only fined them extremely heavily for this. They also refused to even look at the work that had been started, until the freezer was of site. Finally, when everything was done, they called for the final inspections. This was in January mind you. They were told it would take less than sixty days to get inspected by the city. Sixty days came and went... then ninety. Still no inspector. They called and complained, and they said that they would get to it when they could get to it. He said they were very busy, and backed up right then.

April goes by, then May... still no inspector. They call again, and they assured us that they will be there before Memorial Day. June goes by. They go to talk to some people at city hall. After much complaining, the city said they would be out before the Fourth of July. The owners asked if they were sure, and were told yes. So the owners go out and buy product. Dumb mistake? Well maybe, but they were beginning to face a huge dilemma. The pizza sales did not cover the cost to pay for all this for to much longer. The rest of the Summer passes by, and the leafs begin to change color. They managed to miss the entire ice cream season. Finally, in October, the inspector makes a visit. Looks things over in less than fifteen minutes. They passed!

Yay, right? Except it was way past to late. They ended up closing by Christmas.

You can be as skeptical as you want. I have seen this kind of thing happen one to many times. I also have lived in Westland, and tried to do business there. I had similar issues. Tons of red tape with a slow response at best. Let me tell you, it does not make you look very professional when you reach a inspection point on a job, then can't get anyone out there to look at it. It means that you aren't going to get paid for months upon months. It also means that others can not start their work, and it means that the customer can't use the space. That might mean financial problems for them. It may also mean tools or supplies are sitting in an empty building or house for long periods.

I've seen it first hand, and it's backed up by people I know who own/owned businesses out there. Ever been to La Shish in Westland when it was open? Do you remember how long it took them to remodel and add on that sun room? Now compare that to some places in other suburbs, and you will see that entire buildings are built in the time that Westland takes to inspect a light switch. I'm not hating on Westland here. Try doing business with them... go ahead. Make sure you take good care of yourself though, because the city will not be on your side.

Detroit, well you all know a lot of the issues in Detroit. Let's just say that both are not built on a business/citizen centric market.


As to why Michigan is not business friendly, I agree with others. Michigan isn't designed for small business. It is designed for manufacturing and unions. Metro Detroit is Detroit to people not from here. They are all the basic same thing to many. It is all in design. We cater to manufacturing because that was our design. We have no transit and tons of sprawl by design. We have bad traffic by choice/design. We have high taxes, severe unemployment, high insurance, and heavy blight all by choice.

No central location? Well that is part of the design too. We chose all this, and many around here (maybe unknowingly) not only created this system. Many like it, and support it. Bloomfield Hills may think it's hot stuff. But they are not going to be attracting much by themselves. The functioning and design is something they look at (not nearly the only thing). Does Metro Detroit cooperate often, or is it every man and woman for themselves? How about Saginaw, Flint, Pontiac, Lansing, or Grand Rapids?

Poorly designed urban policies, along with no good central location is one of the big problems. The same can be said about most American cities. They are set up to constantly fail.

This can be changed, but part of the problem is that many are reminiscing and fighting for things that are long gone. They don't simply try to learn from the past. They actually try to relive it.
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Titancub
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Username: Titancub

Post Number: 123
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Sunday, June 29, 2008 - 10:07 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Paging Governor Granholm, your state is falling behind an increasingly competitive environment. Jobs are being created and moving to all parts of the country, quickly overlooking MI.

Whats sad, is that already so many places have been listed in this thread as up and coming and yet a GREAT example of what we could be has nary been discussed - the Research Triangle in North Carolina anchored by UNC, NC State and duke. That area is absolutely thriving.

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