  Jz_detroit Member Username: Jz_detroit Post Number: 45 Registered: 12-2005 |
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pb cs.dll/article?AID=/20080716/M ETRO05/807160412/1016 | ||
L_b_patterson Member Username: L_b_patterson Post Number: 343 Registered: 10-2003 |
that article gave me a great idea... WART - Wood Avenue Rapid Transit. | ||
Tkelly1986 Member Username: Tkelly1986 Post Number: 454 Registered: 01-2004 |
It says construction will begin in 2011. Was the first estimate not 2010? Also, for those familiar with both projects, is this similar to Minneapolis's? I rode that last weekend and it was nice/clean. | ||
Dtowncitylover Member Username: Dtowncitylover Post Number: 216 Registered: 02-2008 |
What's going to be the nickname for it? My dad suggested "the Woodie". But I'm glad they're moving on this. I'll be well out of my undergrad-into-my-grad studies by the time this is completed though. | ||
Ljbad89 Member Username: Ljbad89 Post Number: 24 Registered: 10-2007 |
Construction starting in 2011? How long did it take to put in miles of rail into the streets in the 18th / 19th century? Lack of ambition I tell you! | ||
Focusonthed Member Username: Focusonthed Post Number: 1931 Registered: 02-2006 |
I just hope they reorganize the bus system to feed into it, otherwise, it's worthless. This should include (IMO) eliminating the DDOT Woodward route buses during the hours the Light Rail is running. | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 5114 Registered: 02-2005 |
Which would be 24/7, in the best scenario. | ||
Rrl Member Username: Rrl Post Number: 991 Registered: 12-2003 |
Ljbad- Remember, we're talking federal funds, that takes time. Due diligence, environmental impact, engineering & design, cost verification/estimates, bidding, right of way, etc, etc. all take a fair amount of time to complete. If the powers that be could actually get the construction actually STARTED by 2011, I think that in itself would be a victory. | ||
Focusonthed Member Username: Focusonthed Post Number: 1932 Registered: 02-2006 |
quote: Yeah, but that's not likely. I would expect midnight or 1am cutoffs, with bus service for the overnight hours. Except for Chicago and New York, most transit agencies don't run their rail routes overnight. I am assuming it costs more to run a train empty than to run a bus empty. (Message edited by focusonthed on July 16, 2008) | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 5116 Registered: 02-2005 |
I agree. That would not be the end of the world. When you said reorganize the bus system, did you mean SMART, or both? | ||
Focusonthed Member Username: Focusonthed Post Number: 1933 Registered: 02-2006 |
I meant DDOT, because I'm assuming SMART won't play along, at least not initially. I'm unsure if SMART riders will take to just being dropped off at State Fair (or wherever exactly) and then wait for a train. I would imagine you'd see the SMART Woodward routes stop at 8 Mile/State Fair and then express downtown. Which would actually make a lot of sense in the grand scheme of things. Similar to commuter rail, long-haul buses don't need to have as many stops in the city if the city has their own transit (CTA/Metra, MTA NYC Subway/LIRR/Metro North, etc.). No idea though, just speculating. | ||
Royce Member Username: Royce Post Number: 2689 Registered: 07-2004 |
Light-rail from downtown to 8 Mile is useless, even for an initial trial run. How many people living in Detroit work downtown? How many people who work downtown live in Detroit? A light-rail system that has a better chance of succeeding would be one that travelled from downtown to Birmingham or Pontiac with park and ride lots near the boarding stops. A line from downtown Detroit to 8 Mile doesn't address regional concerns. Besides, how do you measure the success of this light-rail system if the majority of riders are Detroiters? I'm just not content with the idea that building "something" is better than building "nothing" when it comes to this light-rail system. | ||
Leland_palmer Member Username: Leland_palmer Post Number: 568 Registered: 08-2004 |
From the article above... "According to SEMCOG, the proposed line is expected to be the first in a regional plan that includes rapid transit in three counties and would "serve as a distributor and feeder" to an Ann Arbor-to-Detroit commuter rail line the council is studying." | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 7647 Registered: 03-2006 |
It seems when it comes to light rail, there is alot more said than done. I think it is naive to assume that merely installing a rail system through a blighted area will in and of itself turn things around. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 6127 Registered: 10-2003 |
Royce, I think you're missing that this is more of a commuter line than anything else. From what I understand, the 8 Mile end will have a park-and-ride. | ||
Hudkina Member Username: Hudkina Post Number: 263 Registered: 12-2004 |
I know. It's amazing how many people on this forum are clueless to how public transportation works... Royce, while I'm sure they hope to eventually extend the line to places like Ferndale, the Zoo, Royal Oak, Beaumont, and Birmingham, the idea is that people who work downtown will drive from their house, park at the Fairgrounds station and take the train downtown. It would save them on gas as well as the cost of parking once they are downtown. Also, they will indeed tie the bus system to the stations. Meaning all of the major crosstown buses will have stops at the nearest station. I'm sure that a lot of SMART buses will also have a stop at the Fairgrounds station. While a lot of people will be skeptical, I can assure you that this will be a success. Maybe the stations south of Grand Blvd and the Fairgrounds station will be the only "busy" stations initially, but in time the neighborhoods around the other stations will begin to prosper. For example putting a station at McNichols might increase demand for the the Palmer Park Apartments, causing that area to see an increase in renovations as well as new developments. Gentrification and Transit-Oriented development ALWAYS pop up around new transit lines. | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 7652 Registered: 03-2006 |
Any idea where the other half of the $371 million (a low estimate) is going to come from assuming the feds kick in? | ||
Apbest Member Username: Apbest Post Number: 678 Registered: 03-2006 |
Hopyfilly TIF financing, as that seems like the most logical solution...borrowing against future tax gains from new economic development. someone posted a crains article about some measure being pushed through in Lansing to make this realizable | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 7656 Registered: 03-2006 |
And here I thought the state was in a fiscal crisis, silly me. | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 5117 Registered: 02-2005 |
I'm with Hudkina. First, don't assume that there are not plenty of downtown/midtown) workers (and people that go downtown for a variety of reasons) along the Woodward corridor. The density is quite good, and socioeconomic diversity rather high, along the entire corridor. Further, let's remember how many employers are near Woodward. There's the New Center area, Wayne State area, DMC, and of course the CBD, with plenty of small businesses in the margins. Second, Detroit could see its first transit-oriented development in a long, long time thanks to this, as Hudkina states. Third, it is not uncommon for commuter-rail offerings to have a major park-and-ride element. Even in metros with expansive rail systems, many people from the suburbs choose to drive to a certain station and then take transit to their destination (perhaps because that is the most time-efficient thing). | ||
Higgs1634 Member Username: Higgs1634 Post Number: 587 Registered: 10-2005 |
It's encouraging news to be sure. I'm curious about what the definition of "downtown Detroit" is though. The article was not very clear on the "downtown" terminus. Is Downtown Comerica Park/Fox/GCP or Jefferson and Woodward? Or Campus Martius? I'm curious how rail could fit on Woodward from GCP to the river so it would seem the terminus is going to have to be GCP? Thereby forcing people onto the PM? My hope is that those running this show look at what the PM was initially proposed to look like and what it was initially promised to do and compare it to what was ACTUALLY built. Hopefully, someone learned something from that colossal mistake, and will ensure we're not spending another truckload of money we don't have on another glorified parking shuttle only used to anything nearing capacity a handful of times a year. | ||
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd Post Number: 2699 Registered: 07-2004 |
Uh-oh. Here we go again.  | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 5118 Registered: 02-2005 |
Higgs: delivering people right to the core of the CBD would increase its ridership, so the answer to your question is so important. Either Woodward goes down to one lane in each direction south of GCP, or the landscaping and pavers have to get chewed up a bit for a widening. It seems to me that the sidewalks are very wide in merchants row, and we would be just fine with a widening and another redesign of those streetscapes (as annoying and inefficient as that is after just having it done so nicely). Perhaps the materials (like the curbs and even the cement) could be recylced. I think in either case that this will be outstanding news for Merchant's Row. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 4619 Registered: 10-2003 |
^^^Another alternative is to have light rail vehicles run in the street south of Grand Circus, similar to a streetcar. Theoretically, though, the prospect of losing a traffic lane shouldn't be as apocalyptic as some might think, as a lane with rail has a far higher capacity than a lane of automobile traffic. | ||
Dbest Member Username: Dbest Post Number: 104 Registered: 03-2007 |
Wow this is terrific news! This is really encouraging in terms of future developement possibilities along the line. Not to mention this is proof that people are truly working hard to restore the viability and vibrance to the downtown even in the toughest of economic times. Also enough about the people mover, first of all it was suppose to be the begining of a lofty rail transit system including the city of Detroit and suburbs, but when Reagan was elected the state lost much of the promised funds from the previous Carter administration. Would I rather see the downtown without it? Hell no! Its problem is that its potential can not be reached without additional feeder transit like originaly intended. | ||
Mdoyle Member Username: Mdoyle Post Number: 469 Registered: 10-2006 |
Thinking of transit like this as only a way to get people to and from work is a really narrow minded approach. I believe there will be a significant bump in riders from people simply going to lunch. As a former WSU student I would have loved to be able to hop a train to get downtown for some food, or to the bar and many business people will use the transit to the same effect. WSU charges you each time you enter a lot so on my break between class walking to the stick or union street was not an option esp during the winter when I didnt bring my bike. | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 5122 Registered: 02-2005 |
Agreed, Mdoyle. Danindc, I agree that that part of Woodward would probably flow alright with one lane, but one thing I notice is that delivery trucks (UPS and sometimes even semi trucks by the CVS) often stop and stand in the right lane. These deliveries would be forced into the alleys (I don't know why they aren't there now), so that traffic does not back up. It would seem that with tracks down the middle you could probably fit two narrow lanes in each direction with a small curb-widening. This can be done. I'm looking forward to see what the City offers up. | ||
Archy Member Username: Archy Post Number: 51 Registered: 07-2004 |
I can tell you it won't go down Woodward in the CBD. No way...the spent to much money to tear that streetscape up again. I think a loop inside the core would be nice...but it better go two ways. You also have to think about the possibillity of a gratiot, michigan, jefferson and/or grand river line coming in and using the "loop." It would be neat if Times Square could be a mini grand central station (in terms of a grand light rail/bus station). | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 5124 Registered: 02-2005 |
You might be right. Well, here's my brainstorm for the day: take it west from GCP, down Bagley to Cass/Times Square, and then swing it down Michigan Ave. with a stop at the tip of the triangular block that the Lafayette Building is on. That will take people to the financial district, Campus Martius, and a short walk from the riverfront. It will be right there for hotel guests at the Book-Cadillac and Fort-Shelby, and for the future tenants of the Lafayette Bldg. | ||
Apbest Member Username: Apbest Post Number: 679 Registered: 03-2006 |
They have already laid out their plan of 3 options for the setup of CBD. According to their website "The DTOGS project is continuing to evaluate three alternative downtown alignments that could either stop at the future Rosa Parks Transit Center at Cass Avenue and Michigan Avenue; make a full circular loop downtown; or include two-way operations on Washington Boulevard and Jefferson Avenue, with the final destination at the Renaissance Center. " There were images somewhere but I dont remember what thread/article |
