  Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 5126 Registered: 02-2005 |
Thank you for that information. I remember from other stories (or maybe it was news describing the Penske-Gilbert plan) that it was going to stop either on Woodward near the Stadia or Hart Plaza. The Washington-Jefferson route would be awesome. Now, what will happen with the Penske-Gilbert plan and all of their private $ sources? Let's hope that they merge their interests and funnel some money toward the DDOT proposal. If those with the means rally behind this, it is going to be a huge success. | ||
Hudkina Member Username: Hudkina Post Number: 264 Registered: 12-2004 |
It's not going to run down Woodward south of Grand Circus Park. I think they should choose the third option, having it run two-way along Washington Blvd and having it terminate at the Ren Cen. With a stop near Cobo as well as one near the Rosa Parks Transit Center. | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 5127 Registered: 02-2005 |
With all the recent investment on streetscapes and with Campus Martius Park forming a sort of blockade in the middle of Woodward, that really makes sense. A stop at GCP would allow stadium, Merchant's Row, theatre, and Quicken Loans access (regardless of where they locate), one near the transit center will integrate this with the bus system, and one near Cobo will be invaluable for major events in the civic center. | ||
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies Post Number: 3021 Registered: 10-2003 |
There are only 2 alternatives for the DTOGS routing. One down woodward to GCP and then down bagley to the new transit center. The other Down Woodward to State and then across the Michigan Ave. http://www.dtogs.com/f/CBD-Alt _Comb_Rev_08-02-25_070.pdf The other routes through downtown came from the private group that wanted to go downtown to New Center. | ||
D_mcc Member Username: D_mcc Post Number: 999 Registered: 12-2007 |
I think the C option is the best...the farther it goes into the city, the greater the potential for future development. Stopping the rail short of Jefferson would be a hinderance on future development within the core. Pull the terimus further into the city...and the people will follow. The riverfront is prime real estate, and business would be more inclined to have a front row view, ala Chicago along lake Michigan. I can't lie...this really excites me...This could spur a rebirth in our city, and hopefull cities like Dearborn, RO, Ferndale, and others hope on board and allow the lines to extend down Michigan and Woodward. I know I would LOVE to take the train downtown from Dearborn... This has the potential to make Detroit and INCREDIBLY vibrant and more dynamic city! | ||
Youngprofessionaldetroiter Member Username: Youngprofessionaldetroiter Post Number: 1 Registered: 07-2008 |
Retroit - Agree with you. The "you're an idiot" argument is debasing to the value of all of this dialogue, polarizing to everyone involved, and pretty ineffective at solving problems. I'm brand new here, but I wanted to mention that I share your sentiment and hope not see too much of that. I agree with the idea that light rail will not stop me from purchasing a car. Most of my friends that live in Chicago have a car and use light rail all the time. Which brings me to my next point, and it's a commentary about having this discussion at from a different perspective: What kind of city do we want to be? Recent college graduates coming off of a vibrant, social community thrive on the energy it creates. And so many of them seek cities where they can continue that experience. Since many young, affluent, singles have two major concerns: (1)active nightlife and (2) meeting other singles, they enjoy living in areas of high population density and mass transportation. A 25-year-old banker who will drive every day to work would gladly pay $5 for a cab to the train station and take the rail in order to avoid a DUI. Mass transit forces people to interact with each other, which helps "soften" the walls of segregation and disconnection between many of our different segments of Detroit. As an added bonus, mass transit creates a walking culture which is more healthy and great for your social life. When I'm in NYC, I see and meet tons of beautiful women walking, sitting, waiting for trains. I know those ladies are here in Detroit, too. But they're just in the car next to me at the red light. So I wouldn't worry about car sales going down. Creating a vibrant community attracts people here. Young, entrerpreneurial, educated people. Don't worry, you get them moving here from out-of-state, they'll be buying cars, too. And hell...now that they're Detroiters, they'll probably be more open to picking up that new Chevy Malibu or Lincoln MKS instead of the Honda Accord. In short, I feel like LRT is not about taking people out of cars and on to rail. It's about growing the population pie and having everyone share more. - YPD | ||
Themax Member Username: Themax Post Number: 938 Registered: 09-2005 |
How are they going to make it more economical for people to drive to the fairgrounds and park their cars for a fee to ride the last ten or fifteen miles into the city? How are they going to convince the riders that they and their cars are safe? I worked at a charter school in Detroit where teachers' cars had wheels stolen in a matter of minutes after parking. Times are hard and the streets aren't getting safer. | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 3303 Registered: 04-2006 |
quote: 1. Raise parking rates downtown. 2. Raise price of parking tickets. 3. Gas prices. 4. Traffic. | ||
Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 1451 Registered: 12-2006 |
Youngprof, that's an excellent first post. I lived in Chicago for a while and I've been to NYC, Toronto, Boston, Portland and other cities that actually work. I suspect many Detroiters have never seen a city that really works. Regarding car safety: I don't think my car is any less safe in a presumably busy park and ride lot at 8 Mile and Woodward than downtown (which is where downtown workers have to park, absent transit) or Oakland Mall for that matter. I don't live on a bus line - I have several different places I park, depending on what I'm doing and when I'm coming back. So far, my car's always been where I've left it. Old Prof. | ||
Rugbyman Member Username: Rugbyman Post Number: 356 Registered: 06-2005 |
Why not just go with option A? The whole point of the People Mover was to shuttle people around the exact loop people are talking about extending the LRT line around. It's pretty clear the People Mover isn't going anywhere- why reinvent the wheel? And if someone says "people don't want to leave one train for another," I'll barf. | ||
Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 1452 Registered: 12-2006 |
People don't want to pay twice, Rugby. I have a regional pass, $49.50 a month, and I can ride just about every bus in the tri-county area. Because of this, I don't have to carry change, so I usually don't (in fact I rarely have any cash on me at all). The People Mover chooses not to accept passes or transfers, except its own pass. It's not worth the extra money for me to buy the pass, since I would rarely have use of the PM. I can take a bus to within a block or two of anywhere the PM goes, without having to carry change. So I just never use the PM even when time-wise it'd make sense. Thousands of bus riders just like me treat it the same way. If the People Mover management decided to treat that system as part of the region's overall transportation network, ridership would increase dramatically. They've chosen to make it almost completely irrelevant. | ||
Parkguy Member Username: Parkguy Post Number: 305 Registered: 04-2007 |
Royce-- The ridership projections are not based on how many folks from the suburbs will use park and ride. The federal study guidelines require more firm numbers. The Woodward DDOT bus routes already have 22,600 riders each day according to the DTOGS study. Some of those will continue riding the local busses for short trips, but many will switch to the train, plus more will opt to park and take the train into the Woodward corridor- not just downtown. The DTOGS site has plenty of their research available online at www.dtogs.com. | ||
Dbest Member Username: Dbest Post Number: 105 Registered: 03-2007 |
Young Pro that was a sensational post and you managed to sum up exactly how i feel about this project and its benefit to the area. Oh BTW Chicago and its El and Metra are heavy rail. Great first post and welcome. | ||
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd Post Number: 2702 Registered: 07-2004 |
Welcome, young pro.  | ||
Viziondetroit Member Username: Viziondetroit Post Number: 1841 Registered: 11-2003 |
"Light-rail from downtown to 8 Mile is useless, even for an initial trial run. How many people living in Detroit work downtown? How many people who work downtown live in Detroit? " It's not about the number of Detroiters working downtown... people in NY drive to lots and PARK their cars and take the train/bus to their locations. I think we should make a rule that those who haven't been to other cities and experienced mass transit no be able to comment on certain aspects :-D Ever heard of Park-N-Ride? (Message edited by viziondetroit on July 17, 2008) | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 5130 Registered: 02-2005 |
That happens a lot in metro areas of NY, Vizion, where people drive a few miles to large parking structures next to stations i.e. in Seacaucus, Yonkers, various Long Island spots, Newark Penn Station. I also think it's common for people living just off the main line out of Philadelphia. A lot of people in Royal Oak and beyond could also take SMART to 8-Woodward so that they don't have a car to leave behind at the terminus. SMART should prepare to market itself aggressively to people in Birmingham, RO, etc. | ||
Viziondetroit Member Username: Viziondetroit Post Number: 1846 Registered: 11-2003 |
Park N Rides locations would be great @ 696 and Woodward and Woodward & 8 Mile. | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 5131 Registered: 02-2005 |
That would be using our huge road infrastructure to the advantage of transit. It would be great. | ||
Alienjerky Member Username: Alienjerky Post Number: 29 Registered: 06-2008 |
We could go to Mexico City, buy back our old streetcars and lay some new rails for them. | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 7662 Registered: 03-2006 |
YPD - There is really no comparison to Detroit and NYC. NYC has a booming economic base, Detroit's has been dying for years and the small number of twenty something eggheads that want to live in the city so they can party are not going to turn that around. What is needed is massive private investment in the billions of dollars which shows no sign of coming either to this state or the city. The business climate here sucks, the city is a crime ridden hellhole run by a mayor and a city council that are criminals themselves. We won't be seeing any light rail or new investment until the fundamental issues are resolved. | ||
Masterblaster Member Username: Masterblaster Post Number: 188 Registered: 03-2005 |
TO RUGBYMAN AND THE PROFESSOR, Concerning the People Mover, From what was discussed at the DTOGS public meetings earlier this year: The downtown loop option would roughly travel along the same loop as the People Mover, BUT IN THE OPPOSITE DIRECTION. So if the People Mover goes clockwise, then the LRT would go counterclockwise. They would not be competing with each other. The problem is that that particular downtown option is the most expensive. | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 5132 Registered: 02-2005 |
PG: Want to make a bet? Funny how investment occurs now in spite of a criminal mayor. Funny how there will still be plenty of crime to go around and more political corruption in 2011 when this hopefully gets built. Things have a way of getting done because the people need and want them. How many square miles is Detroit? Stop writing off the whole place because of crimes stats which are generated disproportionately across a large area. (Message edited by mackinaw on July 18, 2008) | ||
Royce Member Username: Royce Post Number: 2690 Registered: 07-2004 |
Viziondetroit, I have been to cities with mass transit and I have used it. Also, I know what a park and ride is. My chief argument is that a light-rail line from downtown Detroit to 8 Mile is not going to do a whole lot for the region. It needs to go beyond 8 Mile. Forget that sh** about parking and riding at the state fairgrounds. Why drive from Pontiac, Birmingham, or Royal Oak to park at the state fairgrounds and then take a light-rail train to get to downtown Detroit, when you can just stay in your car and get to downtown Detroit in ten minutes? Also, why ride a SMART bus from these places just to get off at 8 Mile and then transfer to a light-rail train to take downtown? Just stay on the bus. As Iheartthed suggested, raising downtown parking rates might make a park and ride at the fairgrounds feasible. Without that, it make no sense to put the park and ride there.. Now, Viziondetroit, put the park and ride at the intersection of I-696 and Woodward like you suggested and have people take a light-rail train from that point to downtown Detroit makes all the sense in the world. Creating a park and ride at Maple and Woodward also makes all the sense in the world. Therefore, as I've said before, light-rail on Woodward has to go beyond 8 Mile or it's useless, period. | ||
Viziondetroit Member Username: Viziondetroit Post Number: 1850 Registered: 11-2003 |
Royce... I am all all for a regional LRT. I would love to see stops @ 8 mile, 696, 13 mile and beyond...BUT.... we don't live in a cooperative region, we live in an individualist region that only wants to do something that benefits them. They won't wanna support a mode of transportation that could potentially lure jobs and commerce away from it. Our region is as bad as kids in a sandbox not wanting to let any share their portion of sand. Stations all up and down Woodward would be sweet! | ||
Hudkina Member Username: Hudkina Post Number: 265 Registered: 12-2004 |
Royce, the reason it isn't going into Oakland County is because Detroit actually wants to build this thing, not argue over who's going to pay for it for the next 20 years. The idea is that once it is built, once it has been proven to be successful, once it has been proven to be a catalyst for development, Oakland County will be banging at the door to be let in. There are a lot of stops along the Woodward corridor north of 8 Mile that could be built (Ferndale, the Zoo, Royal Oak, Beaumont, Birmingham, etc.) but that will come in time. | ||
Sean_of_detroit Member Username: Sean_of_detroit Post Number: 1181 Registered: 03-2008 |
I really like the idea of it making a large loop similar to the People Mover, but only with a larger diameter, and in the opposite direction. This could mean a drop in People Mover ridership, which is (I think, based on other's past comments here) much more expensive to maintain than light rail is. That means maybe you could do single car operation on all the trains. That could lower overall costs tremendously. Although, I don't know if all this could/would actually work, or have any effects on costs, when taken outside theory. That would be something to figure out. This would also give the illusion that Detroit has more transit options than we actually do. Plus, the People Mover gives Detroit a sort of hip feel. Visitors like it, and often don't know much about it. I personally think that it makes Detroit feel more urban too. My younger guests love the thing. They want to ride it whenever possible (although, it needs A/C in the Summer, or at least a better venting system). (Message edited by sean_of_detroit on July 18, 2008) | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 7667 Registered: 03-2006 |
Mackinaw - Sure I will bet. For one thing nobody seems to be able to explain where "our half" of the money will come from. I don't think the folks in the suburbs are up for kicking in too much. Detroit itself is broke, so is the state government. We are all overtaxed at every level already. We also know that the nature of light rail is that the revenue derived from the riders alone is not enough to sustain it going forward, no matter what areas they are in or how many people ride it. So, any taxpayer subsidy will need to be ongoing. Much of it will need to come from people that will never use the system. Do you really believe that there are enough people in this region that want that rail line bad enough who are willing to fund it? Do you think most believe the state and city governments are competent enough to manage the project? I myself have had enough from Granholm and Kilpatrick, I would be against spending another dime on new programs until they are long gone and someone competent and capable steps in. You Detroit boosters have big dreams but no resources to make them happen. It is all talk until someone ponies up the dough to fund these projects. There has been talk about a light rail line from Ann Arbor to Detroit for 3 years and not a fucking thing of substance has been done on it. 2011 is 3 years from now, do you really believe the Woodward line will be under construction by then? For that to be the case the money would have to be already in place and the bidding process would need to begin very quickly. They are nowhere near that. We should take a page from the Chicago book, they are about to launch a huge crackdown on crime, using National Guard troops if necessary. That is the response of a city that sees a major problem and is willing to do whatever it takes to address it. We sure as hell don't have that sense of urgency around here. (Message edited by perfectgentleman on July 18, 2008) | ||
Novine Member Username: Novine Post Number: 596 Registered: 07-2007 |
"There has been talk about a light rail line from Ann Arbor to Detroit for 3 years and not a fucking thing of substance has been done on it." Not true. Don't let the facts get in the way of your rant. http://www.pressandguide.com/s tories/071308/loc_20080713003. shtml | ||
Higgs1634 Member Username: Higgs1634 Post Number: 592 Registered: 10-2005 |
novine, in defense of PG, the article does say; quote: So, in effect, nothing has happened. It's still a proposal. It's sill in the planning stages. There are a lot of "ifs" and "shoulds" in that article. It seems to have been in this stage for an awfully long time. His comments still stand. Has anything of substance happened that makes any of these projects closer to reality than they have been for the last 5-10 years? Lots of studies, lots of talk...little action. | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 7670 Registered: 03-2006 |
Novine - Sounds like more bullshit to me. It is mid 2008 and they haven't finalized the bidding process and don't have a source for long-term financing. There are also infrastructure improvements needed and they haven't even begun to address those. How that translates to having the thing in place and RUNNING by 2010 is beyond me. |
