  Sean_of_detroit Member Username: Sean_of_detroit Post Number: 1200 Registered: 03-2008 |
Why so much Cadillac Centre pessimism? I thought this project was supposed to have good backing (and thankfully not rely on taxpayer cash). Just curious why so many on here seem to think it will never happen. Link To Cadillac Centre Article: http://www.modeldmedia.com/dev elopmentnews/cadillaccentre125 08.aspx | ||
401don Member Username: 401don Post Number: 654 Registered: 11-2007 |
See previous 100 failed proposals for downtown retail, throw in mayoral scandal, rotten economy and credit crunch. It's best chance to happen will be in about 4-5 yrs., after Quicken & Co. begin moving in and about 2,000 more residents locate downtown when credit eases. | ||
Detroitrise Member Username: Detroitrise Post Number: 2881 Registered: 09-2007 |
It's not pessimism, it's realism. Remember the "it's still milk in the glass" incident? Well this is it. I would love for Cadillac Centre to be constructed. It would certainly fill the CP void and may quite possibly help to tip the neddle. However, given the tough economy & Kwame, I just don't see it happening anytime soon. It's like pumping a dry well wishing water will come out. Besides, too much optimism is never a good thing. It only leads to disappointment. (Message edited by DetroitRise on July 20, 2008) | ||
Mccarch Member Username: Mccarch Post Number: 165 Registered: 12-2003 |
Why be pessimistic? Well, in 2008, if you have a developer who thinks that misspelling "Center" as "Centre" adds an element of coolness to his/her project, you have a doofus developer. Doofus developers rarely carry through on their projects. | ||
Hockey_guy Member Username: Hockey_guy Post Number: 52 Registered: 11-2007 |
"Centre" is french, which makes sense because the Explorer Cadillac was french and "Cadillac" is a French word too. | ||
Youngprofessionaldetroiter Member Username: Youngprofessionaldetroiter Post Number: 16 Registered: 07-2008 |
I'd like some clarification on this issue too. Are people pessimistic just because "things just never happen for Detroit the way they're promised and we're just too jaded and angry to get our hopes up"? Or... Is the groundbreaking of this development contingent on a specific set of objectives being met (such as finding anchor tenants, getting taxpayer subsidy approved, sale of another property etc.) Sometimes I think the past disappointments of promises unfulfilled influences us into being negative for no reason. Especially when we are not fully informed on what's going on. For instance, in talking last winter to some people in Detroit about Book Cadillac's Grand Opening in October, the responses I got were not enthusiasm and energy. It was, "they've been talking about that hotel for 20 years...i'll believe it when i see it" or "I just drove by there...It doesn't look like anything's happening". Well, I've got news. Mark your calendars for October. It's opening. It's the same with Dave Bing's development, the Watermark. Some of the buzz I'm hearing on the street is that the development isn't going anywhere, or he's failed at getting the project underway. Why are people saying these things? My favorite comment is that, "no one with that kind of money would ever live in the city." -- without realizing that the most expensive units (750k+) have been the easiest to sell. I'm not saying that this Cadillac Center thing is or isn't going to happen. I truly don't know. I would, however, like to understand on what basis all the pessimism lies so that we as a city can do the things necessary to remove the obstacles for growth. And wouldn't we ALL want to do something to help remove the obstacles? We can, once we know what they are. YPD | ||
401don Member Username: 401don Post Number: 655 Registered: 11-2007 |
All proposed retail developments are contingent on finding tenants and that's the hard part. Look how quickly JC Penney came and went from Gateway despite signing a letter of intent. | ||
Jb3 Member Username: Jb3 Post Number: 418 Registered: 06-2007 |
SoD & DYP, Personally, i feel that there is a big difference between pessimism in general and pessimism towards certain projects. Also being a young professional working in the city, i am, and talk to people in my generation that are, extremely optimistic. However, having said that, we tend to see optimism in a different form. Large individual projects like Cadillac Centre have the ability to inspire the imagination and would be something to get excited about in other cities that aren't economically depressed, but you said it yourself DYP, that most of the people our age have opted to live elsewhere. So this brings into the play the contingencies you ask about. Every project is contingent upon certain conditions. i.e. Retail operations typically won't touch Detroit or even dream of moving into the city. Here's a good link for retail barriers and what we can do (i.e. marketing ourselves properly). It's a powerpoint file BTW. http://www.cityscapedetroit.or g/ppts/Patty%20Formosa%20Retai l%20Presentation%20Cityscape%2 0Detroit%20May%202008.ppt This is an interesting discussion, keep it going in trying to understand the barriers we have towards development and in reaching out towards potential investors to attract capital investments into the city. We do have the tools and we do have the talent, but for the most part, we need to do our own housekeeping first. | ||
Jb3 Member Username: Jb3 Post Number: 419 Registered: 06-2007 |
J.C Penny pulled out?? When did that happen? | ||
Detroitmaybe Member Username: Detroitmaybe Post Number: 141 Registered: 03-2008 |
Wow YPD..I really like u already!! Please help me in spreading some positive energy around these parts....my fingers were starting to get tired!! You are absolutely right about Book Cadillac, so many naysayers..and now look, they are almost done and doing tours of the COMPLETED models on a regular basis! IMHO, Cadillac Centre is definitely an amazing project and has the potential to fill that missing void of entertainment, retail, and bring a little newness and pizazz back to Downtown. Do I think it will happen as soon as planned??...not quite!But, it will happen! Last year I had the opportunity to have a meeting with the Northern Groups (NY based developer) Detroit rep that basically did suggest that the project was contingent on several things including those u mentioned...Quicken moving in, getting retail space leased, etc. Like most out- of- state investors...they see Detroit as a gold mine, and recognize that it is full of untapped potential! In fact, their business model is investing in underserved urban cities that have experienced a significant amount of disinvestment and that have architecturally significant building stock. That is why they purchased many of the buildings Downtown from Penobscot to Lafayette Towers. I encourage the pessimists to do some homework, and a little research before spreading their negative, uninformed opinions about what is going on! Go to Northern groups website, look up the number, and even give them a call even...I am sure they may be willing to discuss or send u info. I encourage people to identify at least one issue or problem that they have with the City that they are passionate about, and invest the same amount of negative energy into resolving that issue and making it positive. You'd be amazed at the outcome, We all know that the City needs help...Do Something about it!! If u have time to come to this forum and complain u have time to do something about the many, many problems in the City. BE PART OF THE SOLUTION, NOT THE PROBLEM!! | ||
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies Post Number: 3022 Registered: 10-2003 |
Actually, Centre is a correct english spelling of the word. It is the british/canadian spelling. Just like colour being a british spelling of the word color. And I laughed when the project was first announced. It wasn't going to happen when times were good. It's definitely not going to happen now. | ||
Spiritofdetroit Member Username: Spiritofdetroit Post Number: 1043 Registered: 11-2006 |
Kinda like that Vinton BS | ||
Royce Member Username: Royce Post Number: 2697 Registered: 07-2004 |
Did I miss something, Sean_of_detroit? The link to the Model D article only said that critics of new development complain that it often lacks what they call "an architectural statement." Where did you read about "pessimism" regarding Cadillac Centre, Sean_of_detroit? If you are referring to a thread on Cadillac Centre that you have just recently read from the archives, then you should have mentioned that. At first glance I thought you were talking about some new information. | ||
Detmi7mile Member Username: Detmi7mile Post Number: 103 Registered: 12-2007 |
People are pessimistic because it's easy. It's easy to say something will never happen It's easy to say things won't ever turn around It's easy to never put yourself out there and say you actually have faith in the city because it's just simply easier to be negative than positive. Props to the guy who's coming up with this project. | ||
Detroitrise Member Username: Detroitrise Post Number: 2883 Registered: 09-2007 |
^^^Yet, it's also easier to dream than to face reality (be it a positive or negative situation). (Message edited by DetroitRise on July 20, 2008) | ||
Detmi7mile Member Username: Detmi7mile Post Number: 104 Registered: 12-2007 |
How is it dreaming when they've actually said the project is going to happen?? It's not like the people who are being positive about projects are imagining things outta thin air. | ||
Detmi7mile Member Username: Detmi7mile Post Number: 105 Registered: 12-2007 |
Plus there's a difference between facing reality and just pouting and being negative about it, than facing reality and making the best of a situation and trying to be positive. (Message edited by detmi7mile on July 20, 2008) | ||
Detroitrise Member Username: Detroitrise Post Number: 2884 Registered: 09-2007 |
Yeah sure, just like... -Kwame actually says he's innocent. -Como's actually said they were opening a downtown location. -JC Penneys actually said they would anchor The Shoppes at Gateway Park. -Comerica actually said they were dedicated to Detroit. -Judas actually said to Jesus he was a disciple. If you don't get my point, I'll believe it when I see it. I'm not being pessimisitc, just looking at the glass both half full & half empty. | ||
Detmi7mile Member Username: Detmi7mile Post Number: 107 Registered: 12-2007 |
Cool. But like I said it's still the easy way out to say "I'll believe it when I see it". Anybody can do that. I mean anybody can believe in something they see. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 7127 Registered: 08-2004 |
... Oh my God!! They've misspelled the theater in the Fox building as well.... the huge marquee outside says "THEATRE"! Much ado about nothing... | ||
Detroitrise Member Username: Detroitrise Post Number: 2885 Registered: 09-2007 |
^^^Irrevelant to the entire subject. Detemi7mile, whatever you say. I won't be the one mopping up the tears of disappointment if this project falls through the cracks. BTW, the article is over 7 months old and we haven't received an update since. (Message edited by DetroitRise on July 20, 2008) | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 5145 Registered: 02-2005 |
What is there to update? The designs are already made, the site is purchased, and construction was planned to be nearly 2 years away. Any news would just be fluff press conferences held by the developer. I suspect they are trying to get the key first floor tenants (talking to national chains) and talking to certain other downtown developers to make sure that their plans are going through (I have Dan Gilbert in mind). The timing is important, too. Most people recognize the current economic climate as a trough, meaning the outlook for 1-2 years is much better. Dembitzer and his company are likely paying close attention to the downtown residential market and wanting to make sure that the expected increases in downtown worker population (mostly from Gilbert) will be happening. I think when QL chooses a site and shows off some blueprints, and when announcements regarding Woodward Rail are made, the time will be right for reaffirmations from Dembitzer. The man is bullish on Detroit, as you might remember reading. | ||
Youngprofessionaldetroiter Member Username: Youngprofessionaldetroiter Post Number: 18 Registered: 07-2008 |
"I'll believe it when I see it." I will believe it when I see it -- This mentality is great way to be correct 100% of the time. It's a horrible way to create anything new. Because how can you create something you don't see, and if you can see it, there's really no need to create it. "I will believe it no matter what I see" -- This is a great way to end up disappointed much of the time. This Pollyanna attitude is certainly more pleasant to be around, but don't let it seduce you into thinking it's much more effective. It's certainly better than "I'll believe it when I see it". But not by much. "HOW can we create it?" is a MUCH more effective thought. It acts as a catalyst, forcing your mind to come up with solutions. How many of you downloaded Jb3's presentation? Did you read it? Only 70% of Metro Detroiters have heard of Campus Martius. 70%?•••• Even fewer had actually been there!! Since Cadillac Centre is a development on the Campus Martius site...then HOW can we create the conditions for to succeed there? Answer: Bring people to Campus Martius. Go there yourself. Frequent their businesses. Prove to the existing businesses that's it's been a good investment. Being skeptical? Sure, fine...makes no difference to me. Being positive? A lot more pleasant... But being creative? That's what forces change. You are not a victim. You are not a slave to circumstances. What can YOU do to get NEW PEOPLE people down to Campus Martius? - tell a young professional about www.after5detroit.com - bring friends and family down to Campus Martius during their live music lunch hours - bring your family skating in the winter The list is endless. The Mayors will come and mayors will go. City council is and has been crazy forever. Hopefully both will change. Maybe they won't. But only one thing matters: $$$ Get people down to Campus Martius, and prove to future investments that it's a great place to put some money. YPD | ||
Detroitrise Member Username: Detroitrise Post Number: 2890 Registered: 09-2007 |
I never said imagining things was bad. God blessed us all with an imagination to wonder and dream about the way things could be in your own little world. But that's just it, dreams about the world in your own way. Until you can bring that "dream" to reality, or write a check your imagination can cash, then it doesn't really matter to me. However, does it even matter how many people you bring down to Campus Martius Park? It's nice & all and it will lure people downtown. But the difference here is the developers KNOW Campus Martius is a hot spot for investment. The problem is, they're not willing to take the risk (for whatever reason I don't know). So yes it's much easier for one to say "I'll believe it when I see it", just like you take everything you hear with a grain of salt. | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 5148 Registered: 02-2005 |
Great post, YPD. | ||
Youngprofessionaldetroiter Member Username: Youngprofessionaldetroiter Post Number: 20 Registered: 07-2008 |
DetroitRise...did you not read Jb3's link? The reason why developers aren't willing to take the risk is very clear. Retailers won't come because not enough of Metro Detroit even recognizes that Campus Martius exists. It's not they're risk averse. They want data that shows that the area supports retail. Retailers want to know that people will shop there. As the presentation shows, results are still inconclusive when almost a third of Metro Detroit doesn't even know what Campus Martius is. That is GOOD news, though. It's good because there's no longer any mystery. We can no longer shrug our shoulders, saying, "who knows why developers won't come?" We now KNOW why, and it's something we can HELP to fix. Seriously...3 out of 10 people in Metro Detroit don't know about Campus Martius. Even more don't know how to get there. You want retail? You want pretty buildings on the Detroit Riverfront? The answer is quite clear. One more piece of good news...everyone is rooting for us to win. Developers, city, suburbs. Our only enemy is ourself. YPD | ||
Detroitrise Member Username: Detroitrise Post Number: 2894 Registered: 09-2007 |
Suburbs are rooting for us to win? Everyone is rooting for us? Pretty buildings & retail will fix the city? Wow, you really are new around here. But seriously, here's the problem with all of you now. You think big new pretty buildings will suddenly fix the city. We need to start with the heart of the problem before trying to build glossy buildings. Maybe have more cops walking the beat around more city neighborhoods than EEV, or planting trees in areas beside EEV, or tearing down the abandoned crack house or having the fire & police department respond to your emergencey. Besides, the percentage of Metro Detroiters that don't know about Campus Martius DON'T WANT TO KNOW about Campus Martius. They haven't returned to the city since the 70s and probably never will (before they die). We can just forget about them. Heck, we can't even figure out what to do with our existing buildings (Book Building just closed and I don't see a huge fuss over it). Why aren't people trying to get together and purchase the building while opening shops in there? Also, there are several other reasons why people won't visit downtown Detroit. Safety, blight, government corruption, and really there's no destination (a catch-22). There no reason to come to Campus Martius for a family outting because it's not particularly family-friendly (like Cass Park or Belle Isle). It's a park generally for 80,000 white collar workers to enjoy during their spare time. Besides, why would 4 million people visit one park unless there's some special event occurring? It virtually impossible. That's why we have neighborhood parks. | ||
Sean_of_detroit Member Username: Sean_of_detroit Post Number: 1201 Registered: 03-2008 |
I think that Power Point Presentation on Detroit retail, overlooks a lot of things. Over the past eight years or so, we have seen something amazing happen. I don't think I need to say more than this past decade, we saw our CBD become something all Detroiters of every race, religion, and income can be proud of. People are visiting our CBD. Do you know how amazing that is? Do you remember The CBD eight years ago? It looked like a different world. That presentation fails (I think) to take into account tourism. It does seem to be more about residents and office tenants and there effects on retail. Very important stuff for Woodward, The Ren Cen, Capitol Park, and Michigan Avenue. Not really enough to judge the viability of Cadillac Centre (even in speculation). The problem is, this information doesn't exist. It's a pioneer in it's scale. | ||
Detroitrise Member Username: Detroitrise Post Number: 2897 Registered: 09-2007 |
In a reality, downtown still looks the same to me, just an over-achieved paint job and a couple thousand more *daily* workers. Of course, I'm not a YUPPIE, so I can ony speak for myself. It still has a LONG way to go (I mean long). Before it can get anywhere, downtown Detroitr must become the economic center of SE Michigan. Otherwise, no one will be interested in our CBD. | ||
Youngprofessionaldetroiter Member Username: Youngprofessionaldetroiter Post Number: 21 Registered: 07-2008 |
haha...well I am a yuppie, and we're steadily starting to move back into the city.  But I do agree. Long ways to go. I also disagree. "It" doesn't have a long way to go. "We" have a long way to go. We might as well get started. YPD | ||
Detroitrise Member Username: Detroitrise Post Number: 2899 Registered: 09-2007 |
I have no problem with YUPPIES, so I apologize if you guys took offense. The problem I do have with YUPPIES is that they never see the glass half empty. So they can't understand the right problems and the proper way to fix them. | ||
Detmi7mile Member Username: Detmi7mile Post Number: 109 Registered: 12-2007 |
It's funny how people always talk about neighborhoods and the city needs to fix them up and do their job (which is true) but never hold the actual people in the neighborhood accountable that tear something up everytime something nice is done. Build a new park....let's tear it apart and litter around it Put a new supermarket in the neighborhood...hey let's tear it up as well and not only that, but steal so they move out of the city Hey my house is falling down and my grass is not cut, but let me put a satellite dish on top of it blame the school system (which it deserves a lot of), but never point out that a lot of kids skip school and don't appreciate the education they do have it goes on and on.... | ||
Detroitrise Member Username: Detroitrise Post Number: 2904 Registered: 09-2007 |
It's also funny how people never talk about the actual people in the neighborhoods who do their part. They're bad seeds in every big city who don't take care of their property. Only ignorance would allow those few bad seeds to over-shadow the thousands of hard-working citizens. Detroit is not the only big city with this problem. But unlike other major cities, Detroit's neighrborhoods are experiencing mass abandonment for some pointless reason when those people could stay & do their part but instead they expect the remaining faithful residents to pick up their mess. | ||
Vivadetroit Member Username: Vivadetroit Post Number: 47 Registered: 04-2008 |
YPD, what's scarier is that my coworkers out in Novi had NO clue what the Book Cadillac was. they all thought it was a new restaurant. WOW! i was floored. | ||
Lefty2 Member Username: Lefty2 Post Number: 1541 Registered: 07-2007 |
I would describe this as being a pragmatic optimist. Being a cheerleader doesn't win games but it does help the crowd think they might. I also think most that post here want to see positive transformation happen. But, we all know that things don't happen the way we would like all the time even with the best intentions, actions. | ||
Youngprofessionaldetroiter Member Username: Youngprofessionaldetroiter Post Number: 23 Registered: 07-2008 |
You hit the nail on the head, Lefty2. I'm a pragmatic optimist. I am not so naive as to see that magical fairies will show up and save Detroit. I've had experience building 3 successful businesses and organizations from scratch. You can't do that if you just think everything is sunshine and flowers all the time. But you are also right that cheerleaders do have a positive effect on outcomes. That's why there's a such thing as Home Court Advantage. Why is Detroit one of the few places I've traveled where rooting for Detroit puts you in the minority? Why do we be ourselves up? It's quite remarkable. But not unbeatable. It just takes a few core people with presence of mind, relentless persistence, and hard, hard, hard work. Your co-workers in Novi, Viva? I laugh, because I know it's true. Bring them down when it opens. They'll be as floored as you were. And then walk one block to Campus Martius. You'll really have them then. I know that no one person can save this city. But each of us should encourage positive efforts, and encourage positive change. Sean is right. There has been a lot of change in the CBD over the last 8 years. No, it's not the be all end all. But it's a critical mass. And it's growing. Shouldn't we all encourage all of that growth? YPD p.s. no offense taken by "Yuppie". I'm proud of my yuppieness ;) Look for me at the Book Cadillac sipping on mojitos on Monday nights, dragging in all my friends from Royal Oak and Birmingham with me. - Y (Message edited by youngprofessionaldetroiter on July 20, 2008) | ||
Sean_of_detroit Member Username: Sean_of_detroit Post Number: 1202 Registered: 03-2008 |
:::My below explanations and ramblings can be summarized by saying Cadillac Centre will be a part of a larger destination shopping area, sort of like Great Lakes Crossing (but not really... it's it's own different thing. Just using it as an example). The Power Point link above does not seem to take something like this into account. Does Great Lakes Crossing have the required density to support it?::: First, Campus Martius is not done yet. It was designed to be the town square of Detroit and some of it's suburbs. Right now, many have not even visited it directly... but most know about it. Many have driven by it, if only on the way to a game, the tunnel, or to go to jury duty. I am hearing suburbanites actually say how beautiful the CBD looks. Campus Martius is not a destination though. It's a nice place to go on your lunch brake, or to a random event in the evening. That is nice, but a town square it does not make. I see Cadillac Centre as a reason to visit. I can't spend the day in our CBD like I can in other cities (Chicago, or even Toledo). Retail/market analyses are often wrong in Detroit. I don't know all the reasons for this, but I think that tourists from the suburbs are being overlooked. The reasons I believe this are sales, for starters. Woodhouse Day Spa, for example, was surprised by how many people are doing day trips (or longer) from the Suburbs. The same can be said for hotels, boutiques, and restaurants. I do know countless people who are in the city every weekend entertaining or eating. My sister in law works at Domino's Farms. Every week a large group of them go eat downtown, and visit the theaters. While many visitors are from the suburbs, I think that they aren't the only ones. I think many suburbanites will continue to go to Chicago instead. It's really not that far from Detroit. However, if you live in Saginaw, Flint, Bay City, or more rural areas, Detroit is your only option. These people seem to be visiting Detroit over their local downtowns. They also aren't constantly bombarded by negative Detroit talk too. Because of that, many are buying into the whole "Detroit is back" thing. The Kennedy Square Building was a huge shot in the arm. It took from the suburbs and 150 Jefferson. I think 150's lose was a plus in the long run. Kennedy drew people to Campus Martius. People at 150, I don't think were using Campus Martius. They weren't getting out on the streets. That needed to happen. Campus Martius with Cadillac Centre on the Monroe Block, will be a hub of activity. Right now, visitors aren't utilizing the space enough. For most, it doesn't make sense to walk all that way (from say; Ford Field, or Greektown). Their needs to be more for them to do once they get there. Here's my take on it; -The South Woodward Spoke will connect the space to Hart Plaza. -The Fort Street Spoke will connect to the offices of the Financial District and Cobo Hall. -The Michigan Avenue and Lafayette Fork Spoke will connect transit depots, MGM, large hotels, and many other mixed use buildings, most residential (eventually Capitol Park). -The Cadillac Spoke will connect many office and residential towers, as well as Cadillac Centre itself. The Ren Cen and Wayne County Building are also located near here. -The Monroe Spoke is a big one. It will set up a fluid transition between Greektown and Campus Martius. -Finally, The North Woodward Spoke will serve as a sort of main street. Cadillac Centre and Campus Martius will be it's Southern anchor. Quicken is important to make this happen. The Whitney and Grand Circus will/could be a Northern anchor. I would expect those vacant storefronts to fill up nicely with those anchors. This Grand Circus Park "gateway" will be attractive to People Mover riders, stadium goers, offices and residential space, and the theaters. All those "anchors" patrons are not really visiting Campus Martius on their excursions. So going back to Cadillac Centre, it seems like it will be a attraction that will attract people from all those places. The new building alone will draw "tourists". The shopping, entertainment, and other space will draw people from all over IF it is something they can't get in the suburbs or outlying areas of Detroit. Campus Martius will become a true town square for Metro Detroit as a whole (atleast Detroit and it's inner suburbs). I see it as viable. Quicken needs to come too though. New buildings like this face the problem of turning into vacuum cleaners like The Ren Cen was. I think that is the biggest worry. Hopefully... they know how to make these new buildings complement those existing. Cadillac Centre should bring jobs into the CBD, as well as residents and tourists. The same goes for Quicken. Cadillac Square might (for example) get new retailers into the city. Quicken might get new office tenants into the city. I would think that means more potential customers for smaller firms and start-ups. I am guess Northern is hoping to attract more office tenants in it's older space out of all of this (start-ups). This should especially be true in Cadillac Tower and the First National Building. (Message edited by sean_of_detroit on July 20, 2008) | ||
Detroitrise Member Username: Detroitrise Post Number: 2906 Registered: 09-2007 |
As I said, we need to just *wait* for it to happen. I see your point Sean_of_detroit, but I simply don't want to get excited (or excite anyone else) until I'm sure what you described will happen. | ||
Jb3 Member Username: Jb3 Post Number: 420 Registered: 06-2007 |
Let me just intervene real quick with some clarifications and maybe help us understand the powerpoint link. First off, the presentation was meant to be geared towards a general population not specifically real estate professionals. Having said that, mapinfo does serve the real estate profession in helping to locate potential retail operations and can be considered experts in their understanding of the market as it exists currently (not saying the market isn't shifting and they have some catching up to do, but they can only base their numbers on other numbers..etc). second, only 59 people were surveyed as to their awareness of campus martius, that is a extremely small sampling, but it does raise some interesting questions. the main crux of the presentation was not specifically the awareness of campus martius, but more importantly the difficulty retailers have in taking a risk in urban areas. i.e. 15% of the targeted household base is urban, not a great percentage of people to tap into and compounded by urban households being typically less affluent. the presentation was simply meant to give a broad overview of why retailers typically steer clear of urban areas, not just detroit. this isn't to say that retailers will completely avoid urban areas, but a certain amount of density would need to exist. so adding to the norm of aversion to urban centers, detroit has some serious image problems that have gotten significantly worse since this presentation was put together. how do we fix this? is tourism a big enough economic driver for retailers to take a serious look at detroit? do we want detroit to have the same type of retail mega-corporate conglomerations within our city? good questions. first, how do we fix this? small businesses have to be given every concession possible in order to survive in order to prove to larger corporations that there is a viable market. the cities policy of taxing the hell out of small businesses and charging permit fees and inspection fees for construction is unacceptable. if the city were good stewards they wouldn't bend over backwards with zero taxes for the big corporations and charge the hell out of the small businesses. if the city were good stewards, they would take a percentage of the small business taxes and place it into escroll for strictly capital improvements within that tenants block or for a low interest loan program (this may exist in some form with Detroit Renaissance or the Chamber of Commerce...any insight would be helpful). regardless, detroit is simply not business friendly. second, is tourism big enough in detroit? hardly. especially for large corporate retailers. this isn't to say that we have been ruled out, just that their is a higher risk factor involved. third, do we even want large corporations in the new economy of a sustainable city model. I think that some larger corporations have their place, but i also feel that Detroit is a perfect position to break from the traditional models that exist in other cities. I say this because the doors are open to the entrepreneur and the sky is the limit if they can figure out what the market wants. Dan Gilbert understands this, Bizdom U anyone? Detroit's future lay with it's own citizens. I for one have no respect for large corporatations that have made their money in the suburbs, they only bring a suburban attitude into the city. the powerpoint presentation alludes to this with the problems of parking. i don't believe we need traditional retail, i look at zaccaro's market, avalon bread, cass cafe and the litany of others that are performing quite well. we need more of those and the city needs to understand this. in closing, detroit is an entrepreneurs wet dream. what we need is venture capital to realize this. how do we do this? we celebrate and market the hell out of this city and everything and everyone that is eeking out an existence. we are on the doorstep of a new detroit, we just need to be careful not to follow make the same mistakes the rest of this country seems to be making. i see the right things happening and the right people are doing them, we just need the city to understand what's in it's own best long term interest. but that requires some housekeeping on our part. | ||
Youngprofessionaldetroiter Member Username: Youngprofessionaldetroiter Post Number: 24 Registered: 07-2008 |
I already see the quality of this discourse becoming more useful. Thank you Sean and Jb3 for you indepth analysis. "How" is always the best question. There is always a way. YPD | ||
Jb3 Member Username: Jb3 Post Number: 421 Registered: 06-2007 |
SoD, I like where you are going with the 'suburban tourism' or 'regional tourism' bent. this bring us back (as always) to transportation. But i wont' go there in this thread. just real quick though, Quicken needs to be on the Grand Circus Park site...my two cents. YPD, thanks for trying to understand. i hope my generalizations are slightly helpful, if only to raise more questions. cheers | ||
Detroitrise Member Username: Detroitrise Post Number: 2908 Registered: 09-2007 |
"just real quick though, Quicken needs to be on the Grand Circus Park site...my two cents." I do agree there. It would serve no purpose to have Quicken build on the Hudson site, considering Compuware already has it covered. | ||
Youngprofessionaldetroiter Member Username: Youngprofessionaldetroiter Post Number: 26 Registered: 07-2008 |
" 'As I said, we need to just *wait* for it to happen. " - You know, maybe I am new around here. That's what I think Detroit needs. Some new. Yes, people in the suburbs want to see a better Detroit. Sure, maybe we've lost the 50+ year old demographic. I don't know. But 40 and under?! Yes. They are all rooting for us. And waiting for it to happen... is fine. But doing something to accelerate is better. And we can. YPD | ||
Detroitrise Member Username: Detroitrise Post Number: 2909 Registered: 09-2007 |
Yes, but until the baby boomers & depression children die off (Bush is a baby boomer, Granholm is a baby boomer, L. Brooks Patterson is a depression child, and majority of the politicians in SE Michigan are baby boomers or depression children), I wouldn't expect much to change. These same people also are against mass transit, since thy grew up in a time where automobile was the huge fad. They also had unfortunate memories of Detroit's past and that will probably stick in their minds. On the other hand, it may be too little too late because they've put the region into the deepest depression yet and this will prevent the younger crowds from wanting to settle here. | ||
Sean_of_detroit Member Username: Sean_of_detroit Post Number: 1205 Registered: 03-2008 |
Compuware isn't enough. I do agree though. Grand Circus would give the building more visibility. Hudson's on the other hand will allow the start ups and smaller businesses be more diverse (serving other buildings from it's central location). I am hoping for multiple buildings on both sites though. Residential would be nice facing the Library. Some more new residential buildings across the street would be nice too, and I think are being considered. Interesting, there are side by side I-beams. They are next to the Northwest parking building. It kind of looks like they planned on two buildings separated at that line of adjacent beams. On another note, what is up with the Whitney? Haven't heard anything about that building for a very long time. | ||
Detroitrise Member Username: Detroitrise Post Number: 2910 Registered: 09-2007 |
Oh, you guys are forgetting, Gilbert *claims* he will build mid-rises on both sites. So it could be a win-win situation. | ||
Detmi7mile Member Username: Detmi7mile Post Number: 110 Registered: 12-2007 |
DetroitRise, I agree. If Quicken builds their main HQ there, they could have the same effect on that area as Compuware did on their plot. I mean Grand Cricus is such a nice park already but the area surrounding it is so blah. | ||
Sean_of_detroit Member Username: Sean_of_detroit Post Number: 1227 Registered: 03-2008 |
I agree... it would be nice to see GCP as alive as Campus Martius. Still, locating closer to Campus Martius would add strength to that area. It would also add a sort of safety net to the area, and make Cadillac Centre and 1001 more viable. Any of those big (or small) companies we are depending upon could leave Detroit at any time. This reinforcement theory is what I was referring to in past posts when I said we need to strengthen and critique more of our projects before we take on more in other areas. This also needs to be a citywide effort (in my opinion). | ||
Detroitrise Member Username: Detroitrise Post Number: 2917 Registered: 09-2007 |
"Any of those big (or small) companies we are depending upon could leave Detroit at any time." Other than Comerica, I'm sure those companies already downtown are firmly in place for another decade or so. *The Following is all hypothetical* The Hudson block is such a viable piece of land, that it will be developed even if Quicken chooses not to move their headquarters on the site. It would take forever to fill the statler site because there's virtually no reason to build on it other than GCP. The Whitney, Broderick, United Artist & Book building are all shuttered. Washington Blvd. is pretty much lifeless (any traffic from B-C will be steered along Michigan Ave.). If Quicken is willing to develop on the Statler block, it may be a chain reaction. The storefronts on the north end of merchants row could be filled (and eventually connect with Campus Martius). Some life may finally return to Washington Blvd. Also, GCP may get the same treatment Campus Martius has. Finally, the Book, Broderick, Whitney, and United Artist will probably appear as better investments with the close proximity to a beautiful park, 2 vibrant avenues, and near a large corporation. | ||
French777 Member Username: French777 Post Number: 497 Registered: 10-2006 |
Is Compuware a larger company than Quicken? | ||
Detroitrise Member Username: Detroitrise Post Number: 3025 Registered: 09-2007 |
Overall, yes. They employ 7.5 thousand people worldwide. Of that 7.5 thousand, only 4,000 work at the downtown Detroit headquarters. So they have more workers than the Quicken headquarters. (Message edited by DetroitRise on July 25, 2008) | ||
Detroitbill Member Username: Detroitbill Post Number: 648 Registered: 09-2006 |
Still hoping Cadillac Centre happens but that ofcourse is to be seen. One thing I do have to balk at though is the statements here that there is nothing Downtown to get excited about. For those of us who lived downtown for awhile (try since 1988), its a little ridiculous to say nothing has happened. There was next to NOTHING to do downtown except for greektown and a few theaters in 1988. 2008 shows a very different downtown, traffic jams on weekends are very common, something you never saw before.. There is a long way to go but we have come a long way also. | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 5169 Registered: 02-2005 |
Good post, Detroitbill. A little perspective is neccesary. In addition to a lot more things to do, you also have a lot more neighbors. The next big step for downtown (assuming that the Quicken HQ is happening and Cadillac Centre is waiting in the wings) is increasing retail tenants, and hoping that some of these places are open past 7pm for the sake of the residents. Merchant's Row still isn't living up to its billing. Movement on the Whitney and Broderick would also be good signs. | ||
Youngprofessionaldetroiter Member Username: Youngprofessionaldetroiter Post Number: 60 Registered: 07-2008 |
Was at a wedding Friday talking with someone who works for one of the companies Gilbert has hired to consult on the move and deal with much of the logistics behind it. That move is still a go. They have not stopped working on it since the announcement, and there are no signs from above that anyone is looking to change their mind. You haven't heard much about since most of the recent developments have been mundane in nature, highly technical stuff that's really unimportant to most of us. Let's not forget, Gilbert isn't moving the headquarters because he's benevolent or charitable. He's doing it because it will save him lots of $$$$. No one can predict the future. I just wanted to mention that "no news" doesn't necessarily mean "bad news" in this case. YPD | ||
Detroitrise Member Username: Detroitrise Post Number: 3094 Registered: 09-2007 |
Well, actually, it is charitable in our eyes. His move will help to make a big step towards a stronger (economically centered) downtown. Not to mention the possibilities of skyscrapers! I never said I didn't like skyscrapers, but it's not the end of the world if we don't have them (and true, there are more important things to take care of). | ||
Youngprofessionaldetroiter Member Username: Youngprofessionaldetroiter Post Number: 62 Registered: 07-2008 |
DRise, we might not always agree, but I'll side with you on this: there are more important things we need to take care of than skyscrapers, that's for damned sure. At the same time, I would also like put forth the argument that with good leadership and regional cooperation, we shouldn't have to decide between things like economic development, reducing crime, and weeding out corruption. We should be able to accomplish all of them simultaneously. I mean, keeping track of 7 million dollars of gas is an organizational problem, not a technological one. So maybe the question is how do we find, nurture, encourage, and reward good leadership? Aaah...for another thread, I'd say. YPD (Message edited by YoungProfessionalDetroiter on July 27, 2008) | ||
Fnemecek Member Username: Fnemecek Post Number: 2864 Registered: 12-2004 |
YPD is sounding like a mayoral candidate. One that I'd probably vote for and campaign for, but a candidate none the less. | ||
Youngprofessionaldetroiter Member Username: Youngprofessionaldetroiter Post Number: 63 Registered: 07-2008 |
Fnem...I'm flattered. I might call on you in 10 or 15 years. For right now, I'm just a woman-chasing, late-night partying, ex-Detroiter moving back after living in his college town for awhile. Remember what happened last time we voted in that guy But back to business...retail will be one of the last things to return. And while it's great for tourism (which in turn, is great for re-building the perception of the city), it can't simply be band-aid covering up the lack of economic development going on. That said, it's good to see progress being made in this issue.... YPD (Message edited by YoungProfessionalDetroiter on July 27, 2008) |
