Discuss Detroit » Archives - July 2008 » Detroit- Being business unfriendly to me « Previous Next »
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Johnlodge
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Username: Johnlodge

Post Number: 7836
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Monday, July 28, 2008 - 10:12 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It sure is like pulling teeth to get a simple sign approved. I'm the second one to work on this project. The first company apparently gave up and said they couldn't deal with the city. They'd rather lose business than put any more time into it. Multiple phone calls in, none returned. The city raises hell about the old sign and wants to fine for it, saying it isn't to code. But then they make it impossible to get a proper one approved.

Is this what everybody runs into doing business in the city? What are your stories?
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_sj_
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Username: _sj_

Post Number: 2364
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Monday, July 28, 2008 - 10:15 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I feel for you, I had too many similar instances with the City.

I was once fined by the City of Detroit because a clerk was too lazy to mail my license. It sat on her desk for 4 months. Repeated calls, offers to pick said license up and complaints accomplished nothing. It was only after the city fined me and attempt to shut my doors because a license was not in hand that something finally was done.
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Themax
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Username: Themax

Post Number: 959
Registered: 09-2005
Posted on Monday, July 28, 2008 - 10:59 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

In NYC there is at least one business that just helps people wend their way through the city redtape. Maybe Detroit needs the same thing.
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Johnlodge
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Username: Johnlodge

Post Number: 7840
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Monday, July 28, 2008 - 11:02 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Not a bad idea, Themax. It isn't easy for the little guys to navigate through all that.
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Johnlodge
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Username: Johnlodge

Post Number: 7841
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Monday, July 28, 2008 - 11:03 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Of course, they'd need somebody on the city's Friends and Family plan to actually help get anything done.
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Youngprofessionaldetroiter
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Username: Youngprofessionaldetroiter

Post Number: 71
Registered: 07-2008
Posted on Monday, July 28, 2008 - 11:22 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Some cities have what's called an Ombudsman, specifically to deal with these kinds of problems. And don't think these problems are limited to Detroit.

When I was at Michigan, I was doing a transfer from one department to the other. My new department wouldn't take the credits from my old department without a letter from them. My old department refused to write a letter with out a request from the new department. This went on for weeks.

Finally, I went to the Ombudsman, and she scheduled a conference call between me and both department heads. The problem was resolved in 3 minutes.

I'm not one to create extra layers of government...it's a waste of money. At the same time, I do believe that an Ombudsman is a good investment in money because it cuts through bureaucracy.

Do we have one? Anyone have any experience with this?

YPD
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Digitalvision
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Username: Digitalvision

Post Number: 1028
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Monday, July 28, 2008 - 11:26 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Detroit used to have an Ombudsman. He was my neighbor, until I believe they eliminated the position. Very nice guy, but the volume is just too high of complaints, and they didn't pay attention anyway.

The friends and family plan is the only way to get anything done. And YPD, you have lots of questions today :-)
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Youngprofessionaldetroiter
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Username: Youngprofessionaldetroiter

Post Number: 72
Registered: 07-2008
Posted on Monday, July 28, 2008 - 11:29 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

haha...yes, I put the Y in YPD :-)
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Tåla
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Username: Tåla

Post Number: 65
Registered: 05-2005
Posted on Monday, July 28, 2008 - 11:35 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I Did a search, this was the first site found:

http://www.ci.detroit.mi.us/le gislative/CharterAppointments/ Ombudsman/
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Ndmom
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Username: Ndmom

Post Number: 136
Registered: 05-2005
Posted on Monday, July 28, 2008 - 12:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Why doesn't the city just hire people that will work, yes work, for their paycheck. That would eliminate a lot of this stuff.
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Gencinjay
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Username: Gencinjay

Post Number: 24
Registered: 03-2008
Posted on Monday, July 28, 2008 - 12:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

For the last three years a business that my company operates has received the same city inspection letter threatening fines and possible loss of said license. It says we need to repair the roof and fix flaking paint on the exterior. We have no paint on the structure and it's an open air garage with parking on the top level. After making a great deal of phone calls we finally were able to talk with somebody who told us we had the wrong department and gave us a new number. Several calls later we get somebody in that department who says their computer systems are down (CoD speak for I don't want to deal with you). Several more calls to the same department and we're told that we have to call yet another department. The third department we get to talk to somebody on the second try. They tell us all responses must be in writing and where to send it. We've sent the letter 5 times now and still get the exact same inspection letter with a new date every year.
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Dtctygrl
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Username: Dtctygrl

Post Number: 45
Registered: 03-2007
Posted on Monday, July 28, 2008 - 1:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Maybe it's time to bring the Federal Government into the City's business to clean house. Let's give jobs to people who really do want to work and make the D a better place. Looks like it's time for the mayor and most Detroit government payroll people to go.
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Eastsidedame
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Username: Eastsidedame

Post Number: 485
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Monday, July 28, 2008 - 1:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes, write to your US Reps. and Senators and request a Federal Oversight Committee be established to audit the City, top to bottom. After Granholm's dropping the ball, I don't trust the state of MI to handle this anymore.

Detroit is a kleptocracy, and has been since the days of Coleman Young. That, in of itself, should be enough grounds for an investigation.

KLEPTOCRACY:
(root: klepto+kratein = rule by thieves)
A term applied to a government that extends the personal wealth and political power of government officials and the ruling class (collectively, kleptocrats) at the expense of the population.

A kleptocratic government often goes beyond mere cronyism and nepotism, or awarding the prime contracts and civil service posts to relatives or personal friends rather than the most competent applicants. They also create projects and programs at a policy level which serve the primary purpose of funneling money out of the treasury and into the pockets of the executive with little if any regard for the logic, viability or necessity of those projects.

(Definition of current Detroit city government from Wikipedia:)
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Higgs1634
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Username: Higgs1634

Post Number: 600
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Monday, July 28, 2008 - 2:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Maybe it's time to bring the Federal Government into the City's business to clean house. Let's give jobs to people who really do want to work and make the D a better place.



You can fire and clean house all you want, but you can not instill a work-ethic or create competence by Federal mandate.

In Detroit, it seems, in both the public and private sector that basic decent customer service is the exception and not the norm. I rarely see so many people so uninterested, so unwilling, and so unable to perform simple transactions other than when in Detroit.
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Waymooreland
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Username: Waymooreland

Post Number: 86
Registered: 11-2007
Posted on Monday, July 28, 2008 - 4:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The Detroit ombudsman's office is still alive and well, and quite responsive in my experiences. I've called about some issues with the Public Lighting department and the ombudsman was helpful in getting the problem solved. Check that link up above from the city website and give 'em a call!
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Jfried
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Username: Jfried

Post Number: 1175
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Monday, July 28, 2008 - 4:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Have you already made friends with folks at the DEGC?

http://www.degc.org/business-s ervices.aspx

This isn't just a problem in Detroit. A big part of economic developers' jobs, everywhere, is to help cut through the red tape/complicated processes of traditional government agencies.
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Johnlodge
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Username: Johnlodge

Post Number: 7862
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Monday, July 28, 2008 - 5:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It's just a damn sign, it's not like I want a contract for sludge removal or something.
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D_mcc
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Username: D_mcc

Post Number: 1087
Registered: 12-2007
Posted on Monday, July 28, 2008 - 5:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Maybe we should outsource Detroit to India?
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D_mcc
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Username: D_mcc

Post Number: 1088
Registered: 12-2007
Posted on Monday, July 28, 2008 - 5:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Maybe we should outsource Detroit to India?
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Mschievous
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Username: Mschievous

Post Number: 121
Registered: 04-2008
Posted on Monday, July 28, 2008 - 5:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Detroit still has an Ombudsman. Make her earn that money!

http://www.ci.detroit.mi.us/le gislative/CharterAppointments/ Ombudsman/omb_main.htm
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Lefty2
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Username: Lefty2

Post Number: 1593
Registered: 07-2007
Posted on Monday, July 28, 2008 - 8:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I know two people who didn't open retail businesses because of simple planning issues gone bad. Oh, well, Royal Oak and Sterling Heights made it easy for them.
You need someone who knows the right palms to grease.
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Dustin89
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Username: Dustin89

Post Number: 243
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Monday, July 28, 2008 - 9:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I don't know if this holds true for the City of Detroit & the corresponding chamber of commerce, but I have noticed in my area that chambers of commerce often attempt to help businesses in dealing with local governments and lobby on their behalf. Maybe getting in touch with the regional chamber would be one route to go.
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Terridarlin
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Username: Terridarlin

Post Number: 65
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Tuesday, July 29, 2008 - 6:53 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Eastsidedame: "Detroit is a kleptocracy, and has been since the days of Coleman Young. That, in of itself, should be enough grounds for an investigation."

Great word, but why stop with Detroit.
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Digitalvision
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Username: Digitalvision

Post Number: 1032
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Tuesday, July 29, 2008 - 9:26 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There is no chamber of commerce for the city itself. That's why you get no help from them. I'd like to change that.
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Johnlodge
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Username: Johnlodge

Post Number: 7871
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Tuesday, July 29, 2008 - 9:28 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I bet Ilitch doesn't have this much trouble putting up his 5 story "PREMIER DEVELOPMENT OPPORTUNITY" banners.
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Jfried
Member
Username: Jfried

Post Number: 1177
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Tuesday, July 29, 2008 - 10:57 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Johnlodge - your attitude that "it's just a sign" might be part of the problem. Every city has processes, and many of them don't make sense, but once you learn the process it's smooth sailing. It's not acceptable that your calls are not being returned, but it is the current reality, so just talk to the folks at the DEGC and get it taken care of.

Digitalvision - the Detroit "Regional" Chamber many not be city specific, but the folks there are some of the biggest city supporters you will find. The chamber is as strong as it is because of it's size, and because it doesn't play the city proper vs. the suburbs game.
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Sean_of_detroit
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Username: Sean_of_detroit

Post Number: 1267
Registered: 03-2008
Posted on Tuesday, July 29, 2008 - 11:08 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm sure there are some people somewhere in Detroit, who are working on these problems. Hopefully they'll get through and clip some of that tape...
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Sean_of_detroit
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Username: Sean_of_detroit

Post Number: 1268
Registered: 03-2008
Posted on Tuesday, July 29, 2008 - 11:20 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

DV and others, this was the type of site I mentioned last Spring.
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Johnlodge
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Username: Johnlodge

Post Number: 7874
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Tuesday, July 29, 2008 - 11:23 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jfried.... My attitude is not part of the problem. I treat this job with the same importance as any other. I will see it through. I am telling you, whether you want to believe it or not, that there is no "smooth sailing" going on here. Ask the first people who tried this, that would rather lose a client AND NOT DO BUSINESS IN THE CITY than deal with this nonsense any more. THAT is a problem. Who was it on another thread who said he couldn't get local business because of his Detroit address, even though coming to his office would never be necessary? This is the kind of stuff that needs to be addressed, NOT excused.
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Digitalvision
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Username: Digitalvision

Post Number: 1033
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Tuesday, July 29, 2008 - 1:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jfried - I know what the DRC does.

A DETROIT CITY chamber would be able to point JL's client in the right directions, because it would be CITY specific.

The DRC has a VERY different, regional mission (and a good one). But their mission and charter is NOT specific to the city of Detroit. Detroit, like Troy, Birmingham, etc. needs it's own advocates to do things that the DRC cannot be involved in.

>> Downtown Birmingham has the first 3 hours free parking for shoppers, and max is like 5 bucks a day. NECESSARY if you want retail to grow. A key reason that downtown has almost no foot traffic is that you need to pay to shop - NO ONE wants to do that when you can go pretty much everywhere else and have free, secure parking. It even deters B2B customers. Paying for parking needs to go for the sake of the retailers, or it will be forever doomed to be the lunch and business worker crowd. Detroit ain't valuable like the Loop in Chicago yet.

>> Promotion of the city to others. The Troy chamber has regular events open to all; and what do they do? You guessed it. Occasionally pitch Troy. I get and see materials all the time for every city but Detroit - and they're usually created by the chambers, not by the municipalities.

You never see people from the city of Detroit or the DRC promoting DETROIT as a business location at events. I was told by an administration member some disturbing reasons why, but I won't share because I want to hope for the best and think that that person is alone in their disgusting belief.

>> Promotion of the city businesses. I see some "minority" promotion - which simply reinforces the general belief that Detroit is only open for business to black people - but nowhere near the amount of stuff I see that everyone else does.

What JL sees is what I see regularly. It's why there are a series of businesses who will not serve the city, period. It's an unwritten rule by suburban business. They just won't return your phone call. Or spike the ball with a quote three times what it should be.

Some may be surprised when I say JoAnn Watson was correct when she said their should be free trade between the city and suburbs - there is NOT free trade, at all - so I challenge her to make the compromises needed in her policies and push for change in government to make that free trade happen. It might mean not everything is black. But it WILL mean more shoppers to the future African Town, because all races have money.

And more money in the economy going to those businesses mean more jobs for people in the city, which means more tax revenue, which means more services... opening the doors economically is a key to turning the city around.

(Message edited by digitalvision on July 29, 2008)
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Jfried
Member
Username: Jfried

Post Number: 1178
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Tuesday, July 29, 2008 - 2:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Johnlodge - I worded that last post poorly. I didn't mean to imply that you have an "attitude." You said something like "it's just a freaking sign" and while in the grand scheme of things that is true, but with regards to most cities ordinances, signs are one of the most heavily regulated, and most disputed sections of the book. My point was that signs are a more complicated development issue than most people think. Regardless, I encourage you to call the DEGC and talk to a Business Development Manager. They will be able to help you.

Digitalvision - I don't think you do know the extent of the work of the Detroit Regional Chamber. DREP http://www.detroitchamber.com/ business_development/index.asp ?cid=44 does exactly what you are talking about. They do have the specific local connections that you are talking about, and if they don't have the ability to solve the problem themselves, they can connect you to groups (such as the DEGC) who can help you. I don't know who you have had experiences with specifically, or what events you have attended, but I can tell you first hand, that the Chamber promotes the city, above the rest, and as the most important piece of the region. When they are at trade shows, or conferences (which I attend) the Chamber and it's partners (from suburban communities & businesses) are promoting "Detroit," not metro detroit, or the region. Just look at their marketing materials......everything they are promoting is in the city proper.

I can see why you would think having a city specific group would be a better advocate for city businesses, but in the grand scheme of things, there are already several groups doing the work you are referring to, and there is no reason to create one more entity that distinguishes & separates the city from the rest of the region.
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Johnlodge
Member
Username: Johnlodge

Post Number: 7887
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Tuesday, July 29, 2008 - 2:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jfried, I'll give it a try.

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