  Scooter2k7 Member Username: Scooter2k7 Post Number: 124 Registered: 10-2007 |
Did anyone hear what Illitch is planning to do with JLA? I could be mistaken, but I thought he had to August to renew the lease or start to make plans for a new stadium. Can anyone clarify this for me? | ||
French777 Member Username: French777 Post Number: 518 Registered: 10-2006 |
I think it is later that the plans are due | ||
News950 Member Username: News950 Post Number: 30 Registered: 03-2008 |
Last we had heard, Aug 16 was the deadline. | ||
Sharmaal Member Username: Sharmaal Post Number: 1340 Registered: 09-2004 |
Do you think that deadline matters? | ||
Detroitduo Member Username: Detroitduo Post Number: 940 Registered: 06-2005 |
does ANY deadline matter in this City? | ||
Detroitrise Member Username: Detroitrise Post Number: 3381 Registered: 09-2007 |
Well the Red Wings will simply not have another season if this lease doesn't get worked out. | ||
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies Post Number: 3027 Registered: 10-2003 |
I wouldn't expect an announcement on any major project before The Mayor leaves office. No new Quicken loans office, no Cobo expansion and definitely no new Joe. No one is going to want to give the mayor anything he can claim as a win. | ||
Rugbyman Member Username: Rugbyman Post Number: 358 Registered: 06-2005 |
You know, I hadn't thought about it that way, Ndavies. That's actually pretty astute. That being the case, you could probably just count on not hearing anything until late September at the earliest. That's when Granholm's hearings should be wrapped and a decision made. Otherwise the two felonies won't be tried and decided for at least another 3-4 months. | ||
Hudkina Member Username: Hudkina Post Number: 274 Registered: 12-2004 |
That has nothing to do with it... The business community is not going to make decisions based on whether or not it will put the mayor in a good light. | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 5258 Registered: 02-2005 |
At this point it is factoring into some business leader's thinking, based on what we saw with Karmanos and his posse, but I tend to agree, especially on time-sensitive issues. If the mayor holds out into this winter, Quicken is going to choose their site and release some renderings, and I don't think they really care if he looks good because of it-- his administration did a lot of work to make QL's deal sweeter, anyway. I think the arena news is a long way away for a lot of reasons, not the least of which is the cheap JLA lease and the City's flexibility with them in extending it. | ||
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies Post Number: 3028 Registered: 10-2003 |
Sorry, that has everything to do with it. No CEO of any company in this country is going to stand up in a press conference with an alleged felon at their side. No legislation will pass the state legislature that will see any benefit going to Kilpatrick. The Republicans are just not going to let that happen. They'll be able to beat up on the outstate democrats who would support it. If the national Mayors convention backed out and found a new location due to the mayors mess, what makes you think every other organization isn't thinking that way? That was only a week stay in the city. The mayor has brought the city to a stand still. All the big announcements will wait until he is gone. | ||
Spiritofdetroit Member Username: Spiritofdetroit Post Number: 1168 Registered: 11-2006 |
Hudkina - you are very, very wrong. Ilitch is perfectly happy waiting until the mayor leaves to make the announcement. Gives him more time, and shows the new mayor what kind of power he has. | ||
Rjlj Member Username: Rjlj Post Number: 623 Registered: 11-2003 |
You are mixing political agenda’s with business agenda’s. Good Business people make decisions based on what is best for business, not personal agenda’s or political agenda’s. | ||
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies Post Number: 3029 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: That's the funniest thing I have ever heard. Business decisions are political decisions. Political decisions are business decisions. If you make business decisions without looking at the political implications you are an idiot and soon to be out of business. You wouldn't have Dave Bing looking at running for mayor, if they weren't. Kilpatrick is killing his business. (Message edited by ndavies on August 13, 2008) | ||
Digitalvision Member Username: Digitalvision Post Number: 1094 Registered: 11-2003 |
Gotta agree with Ndavies. PR is everything, and you don't stand next to a mayor up for felony charges, or in fact, do business with him at all if you can avoid it. All progress is stopped until he's out. The opportunity of Detroit isn't so hot it can't wait a couple months; and frankly, if he never leaves, people will just walk away from the deal. If somehow Kwame survives this, expect the pace of people leaving to quicken... Detroit is still a high-risk environment and shady leadership makes it worse. I also know of other conventions and events that can't be announced they're not coming because of the scandal for fear of racial reprisal. I was in the room for the discussions, they just quietly pulled the plug. They either left Detroit for the 'burbs or didn't come to the region at all. Detroit is, after all, punching bag #1 for the Republican party as far as "proving" Democrats do a bad job. | ||
Jasoncw Member Username: Jasoncw Post Number: 545 Registered: 07-2005 |
For projects like the Quicken Loans HQ and Cobo, which are just as much about image and politics as they are about business, I think the current mayor situation is significant. The projects that aren't political will go on, and they have been. | ||
Sirrealone Member Username: Sirrealone Post Number: 200 Registered: 01-2007 |
After watching the special on Channel 4 a couple of weeks ago about the 20th anniversary of the Palace, I wonder if any hesitancy about building a new arena or spending serious money on renovating the Joe is related to the existence and continued success of the Palace. The Palace is a premier venue and still attracts a great deal of high-end events, etc. whereas the Joe gets a fraction of the higher draw types. I would think that in addition to sporting events, most newer arenas would need that 'extra' revenue of high-end draws to support the cost of construction and operations. Most cities that build new arenas of this caliber have both the basketball and hockey team share the space (Chicago, LA, Toronto are just a couple that come to mind). Obviously that's not going to happen here, so you'd be faced with two pretty similar arenas. Though some events might move to the new arena (from the Palace), I don't think the Palace is going to see a mass exodus of events. Is there room for two similar arenas in the area? Unless the new Joe was barebones (in which case, why bother), I don't know if the business model would work, and I wonder if that's part of why this seems to drag and drag. | ||
Hudkina Member Username: Hudkina Post Number: 276 Registered: 12-2004 |
LOL. You guys are ridiculous! Seriously, you think multi-million dollar decisions are hanging on whether or not it will give Kilpatrick something to draw attention away from himself? Are you kidding me? Seriously? You think that Dan Gilbert is thinking "Hey, I really want to build this new half-billion dollar downtown complex, but I don't want Kwame Kilpatrick to take any credit, so I'm going to hold off a few months!" Really? Kilpatrick ISN'T the city of Detroit. And to do business in the city DOESN'T mean you are doing business with him. Gilbert, Ilitch, et al aren't making these decisions now because they probably are having a tough time securing the proper financing. Gilbert and Ilitch DON'T have to invite the mayor to their press conference. They DON'T even have to mention the mayor. | ||
Border5150 Member Username: Border5150 Post Number: 215 Registered: 03-2004 |
Hudkina, You're right. Ilitch Gilbert and DON'T have to invite Kwame. Furthermore, their concern isn't whether Kwame can or will take credit for their new downtown buildings. Ilitch and Gilbert, and any other potential business person's concern is how his or her company is perceived by the rest of the region, country or world for investing millions of dollars into a city which is governed by an accused felon, a city council with their own criminal allegations and a populace so apathetic that they have yet stand up en masse and demand action against these incumbents. Ndavies, I agree with you: business decision ARE political decisions. Perception is reality Rjlj. Ilitch and Gilbert won't really be aiding and abetting if they build in the city during Kwame's tenure, but that the public could perceive it. Situations like this are the reason "public relations" positions exist in businesses. | ||
Spiritofdetroit Member Username: Spiritofdetroit Post Number: 1169 Registered: 11-2006 |
Hudkina - You clearly have no experience in the upper echelons of the business or political community. Businessmen are in every sense political. Why do you think Karmanos is holding private meetings with Kym Worthy? Why has Ilitch made no comment? Why no more information from Gilbert. And guess what, they do need Kwame or the mayor with them on these deals. Without the city's support - there is no deal on a stadium or a corporate HQ. Get a clue. | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 261 Registered: 06-2008 |
"Seriously, you think multi-million dollar decisions are hanging on whether or not it will give Kilpatrick something to draw attention away from himself? Are you kidding me?" I don't think the decision to build hinges on this, as much as the decision of whether to delay the announcement does. | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 5259 Registered: 02-2005 |
Thejesus articulates it correctly. Ndavies, not all businesspeople have hopeless aspirations to be mayor like Dave Bing. You have to come up with some better examples of why business leaders are political leaders. That is a huge leap you're making. | ||
Detmsp Member Username: Detmsp Post Number: 1 Registered: 08-2008 |
spiritofdetroit - you're not even making sense. you first said that no one will build anything, not because of business reasons, but simply because they don't want to make the mayor look good. you then back that up by saying they need the mayor and the city's support to get a deal <----- no deal without their support, you say? might you even venture to say no BUSINESS deal without that support? Sounds like it has to do with business reasons, not whether it makes kwame looks good/bad/ugly they care far more about their money than they do kwame's image | ||
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies Post Number: 3033 Registered: 10-2003 |
Nope, not all businessmen have aspirations to be mayor. I don't even think Dave Bing really has aspirations to be mayor either. That wasn't the point. But all of them want what's best for their companies. Standing up announcing a deal with a city in so much political turmoil is never in the best interest of any company. It would only lead to ridicule and second guessing from the companies business partners and customers. I know If I owned/ran a major company I would be trying to get as far away from the Mayor and city Council as I could get. | ||
Digitalvision Member Username: Digitalvision Post Number: 1096 Registered: 11-2003 |
Large business owners to get where they are by definition need to be politicians, but representing their/their companies' interests as opposed to "the people." I'm sure they care way more about THEIR image than Kwame's image. Standing next to Kwame right now is amongst the stupidest things you could do as far as message you send to people who may buy from you or invest in you. Regardless if they don't have political aspirations to actually hold office, being a CEO is a political job. I've had a couple fortune 1000 execs tell me this - that was the most difficult thing some of them had to learn, is that beyond a certain level at corporations it's all about people and political skills. | ||
Lefty2 Member Username: Lefty2 Post Number: 1658 Registered: 07-2007 |
Absolutely. There is always market, political, or financial risk involved in any major decision. I think there is too much political risk involved at this point in time to make as huge a critical decision like a new arena, new office tower, etc, with all the uncertainty going on right now in Detroit. You shouldn't be too emotional about the mayor and worry about your investment decision. The dust needs to settle before a clearer vision appears of the future of Detroit politics. At least anyone investing millions of dollars would; unless they are a complete idiot. | ||
Rjlj Member Username: Rjlj Post Number: 624 Registered: 11-2003 |
How about Billions???? Idiots??? Riiiight!•••••••••••• How many MBA's are on this board? "Chrysler to invest $1.8B in Detroit plant" | ||
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies Post Number: 3035 Registered: 10-2003 |
Well I didn't see Kwame anywhere near that announcement. The Chrysler deal is very different from a New Joe, Cobo Expansion or Quicken Headquarters. This is an existing plant with a huge cost to close or relocate. They also need the production capacity on line before September of 09 to support 2010 model year vehicles. The Wings will happily play at the Joe, and Quicken will happily live in their headquarters in Livonia until Kwame's gone. They are not time sensitive at all in this case. The Chrysler project was also in the works long before Kwame ever got into trouble. They were in front of the state asking for tax incentives way back in November. At the time it was seen as a $500M project. Now that they are going to be building non body on frame vehicles at Jefferson North, they have greatly upped the budget. http://www.expansionmanagement .com/cmd/articledetail/article id/19248/default.asp | ||
Sean_of_detroit Member Username: Sean_of_detroit Post Number: 1458 Registered: 03-2008 |
I can't comment on Quicken or Joe Louis. However, I think what NDavies and a few others seem to make sense and know what they are talking about. Hate him or love him, Mayor Kilpatrick IS currently a cause of at least a few postponed/cancelled projects and conventions in Metro Detroit. | ||
Lefty2 Member Username: Lefty2 Post Number: 1659 Registered: 07-2007 |
Rjlj - How about Billions???? Idiots??? Riiiight!•••••••••••• How many MBA's are on this board? "Chrysler to invest $1.8B in Detroit plant" Where did you receive your MBA? NDavies right. I can see you have at least some post college education. I didn't say companies won't invest. I said you need to look at the political risk involved in any major financial decision. Especially in this environment. Chrysler is an international conglomerate. | ||
Hudkina Member Username: Hudkina Post Number: 278 Registered: 12-2004 |
You guys really need to stop looking at this from a Fox 2 News perspective... People like Gilbert and Karmanos and Ilitch care about Detroit's image and want what's best for the city and what makes the best financial sense for themselves. If that means getting rid of Kilpatrick, then so be it. (I would assume that most business leaders agree that it would be best for the city if Kilpatrick resigned.) However, any decisions they may make about their future business plans have very little to do with their own opinions on the Kilpatrick matter. If building the new hockey arena now saves Ilitch millions of dollars, HE'S GOING TO BUILD IT NOW. He's not going to throw away money just because most Detroiters have an unfavorable opinion of the mayor. Most people aren't stupid. Most people aren't going to see a Quicken headquarters announcement and say "Well, since Kwame Kilpatrick is still the mayor this is a bad thing for the city!" And that $1.8 billion investment by Chrysler is a perfect example. Do you think Chrysler executives were hesitant of announcing their plans because of mayor's situation? No. Would Quicken Loans executives have any hesitation? No. I understand that it would look bad if Dan Gilbert was having lunch and going to parties with the mayor, but as far as I know, he's not. He's in the middle of planning a major construction and relocation project. And when he's finished he's going to announce his plans whether Kwame Kilpatrick is the mayor of Detroit or not. | ||
Jasoncw Member Username: Jasoncw Post Number: 549 Registered: 07-2005 |
Yeah, but these projects aren't about saving money, they're about image. Quicken isn't moving here because they'd save money on office space or something, they're moving here because of image, advertising, and attracting certain types of employees. That's in addition to Gilbert's personal interest in being the messiah. It's not the same type of business decision as the Chrysler plant. I think they'll wait a few months to announce what's up. Then they'll try to play down KK's involvement. The new mayor will try to play up his involvement, and they'll spin it as a "now that the corrupt KK is gone, prosperity will flow like it should have been all along". | ||
Sean_of_detroit Member Username: Sean_of_detroit Post Number: 1516 Registered: 03-2008 |
I don't think Gilbert is trying to be the messiah... but that's another issue. Hudkina, your sort of right... it COULD be played like you are saying. But, that sure is a dangerous game to mess around with, and one I don't see most large or small business owners, CEOs, or executives playing. I think what most would worry about is becoming public enemy number two. Meaning, once Kwame is long gone, you'll be remembered (rightly or not) as backing him. Even if you didn't, your enemies could easily construe it into making you look like you did. I don't know of a CEO or business man or women who everyone loved... even if they are great people, there is still someone who stands to gain from their demise. Avoiding Kwame is preventive defense... and unfortunately, until he's gone, many view any mayor as synonymous with his city. Not forever, but definitely while they're in control. Of course... heh, I'm not sure he actually has control of anything right now... hehe. (Sorry, low blow... I know). | ||
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies Post Number: 3038 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: Building a new arena will cost Ilitch Millions. He pays $1 a year for the Joe Louis rent. That was the deal that stopped Norris (The wings former owner)from moving to Pontiac in the late 70's Ilitch will receive much lower subsidies for a new stadium than he's currently receiving at the Joe. The deal for Comerica park was no where near as sweet of a deal as the Joe Louis/Cobo arena deal he's currently operating under. Also why would anyone negotiate with someone who at the moment has absolutely no power to follow through on any of the decisions? Any new deals would have to be passed by the City council. It's obvious from the Canada tunnel deal they are not about to just roll over and pass the things the Mayor wants. He was having trouble getting his deals passed before the scandal. Now after the scandal the City council can vote down all of his proposals with virtually no regard to the proposals merits. The mayor will be gone before the new Joe, Cobo expansion and Quicken headquarters announcements. | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 285 Registered: 06-2008 |
Hudkina: You're looking at this a little too narrowly. It could be as simple as our local business leaders wanting to save any political capital that might result from their announcement for Detroit's new mayor in order to gain favor with the next administration... or they may just not want any photos of them and the mayor showing up in the papers while all this is going on...a photo can give the perception that these leaders support KK and wish for him to continue as mayor when this may not be true | ||
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge Post Number: 8256 Registered: 10-2003 |
Perhaps Ilitch and Gilbert and the like know something we don't. Perhaps they have a good idea who they'll be dealing with post-Kwame, and like the idea enough to wait. Just speculating. | ||
Digitalvision Member Username: Digitalvision Post Number: 1117 Registered: 11-2003 |
I think we all do. It'll be Ken Cockrel, Jr. at least for a little while - and Ken will be VERY anxious to seal these deals once Kwame is gone. Look at it this way - if Cockrel nails these deals within the first few months of his administration, he'll look like a genius. By the way, I know a lot of groundwork was laid with Kwame - just like a lot of Kwame's early "accomplishments" were set up by Dennis Archer. All he had to do was knock the pins down. That's just the bitch of being mayor. The next guy gets to take credit for what you do. | ||
Goat Member Username: Goat Post Number: 10300 Registered: 10-2003 |
Unless a mayor moves quickly and gets things done. As in, actually working for the city and not building up empires for themselves once they leave (or in this case forced) office. Instead we we get the snails pace that continues from both sides of the border. | ||
Sean_of_detroit Member Username: Sean_of_detroit Post Number: 1522 Registered: 03-2008 |
You know, I have a lot of respect for Cockrel. Whenever I (or those around me) sent a complaint in, or wrote to support something (like the vending issues), he has always wrote back. IT actually appears that he wrote or typed them himself... not to common in today's culture. He really has proved to me that he cares... although, I don't know a thing about his qualifications. He does have a Heart though... you can just tell from talking to him that he is passionate about this city. But, that's just the impression I got from a few letters, news stories, and comments. Maybe I'm not a good judge of character. I don't know. I never got that vibe or impression from Mayor Kilpatrick. That Hip Hop Mayor stuff wasn't him trying to connect with today's youth... He actually lived/lives the Hip Hop life. That might be his real self, right? Anyway, I don't want to insult the guy, but I really think that's how it was. I didn't get the vibe... and for some reason, I was not at all surprised that he had a big closet full of skeletons, that he was trying to hide. | ||
401don Member Username: 401don Post Number: 725 Registered: 11-2007 |
I think the Tigers poor season may also contribute to the delay. Despite the capacity crowds, the revenues do not support a 139m payroll. Ilitch took his shot and was probably counting on at least 1st round playoff money in the Tigers budget. Next yr's payroll will be closer to 100m. Motorcity casino revenues are also down despite the added expense of the permanent casino. The Wings may have to wait another year or two. | ||
Rb336 Member Username: Rb336 Post Number: 7317 Registered: 02-2007 |
Cockrel is smart as a whip, a good guy all around from what I remember. | ||
Rjlj Member Username: Rjlj Post Number: 627 Registered: 11-2003 |
401don, the Red Wings is a separate organization from the Tigers and Casino which do not support the Red Wings. | ||
401don Member Username: 401don Post Number: 726 Registered: 11-2007 |
Rjlj-yeah sure, and Little Caesars fortunes do not affect the Wings and Tigers payroll either. Don't be so naive. I seem to recall a quote from Chris Ilitch a couple of years ago to the affect that we have enough on our plate with Comerica Park right now to not rush into a new arena. | ||
Lefty2 Member Username: Lefty2 Post Number: 1721 Registered: 07-2007 |
I'll bet he's working on a new stadium, slowly but surely. Just a matter of time. | ||
Rjlj Member Username: Rjlj Post Number: 628 Registered: 11-2003 |
Businesses are not run that way. Each are independent from each other. | ||
401don Member Username: 401don Post Number: 727 Registered: 11-2007 |
Not when they are privately owned, family run businesses. When a business is losing money, or has a down couple of years, and you still believe in investing in it, you can either borrow or take the profits from another business to do so. Ilitch himself said the Tigers lost millions in the 90's, so he bankrolled the team with his own pizza, Wings and Olympia Entertainment money until he turned things around by moving into a new stadium. All I'm saying is, a family looks at how all their holdings are performing when making investment decisions, just as a corporation does. | ||
Detroitstar Member Username: Detroitstar Post Number: 1283 Registered: 01-2006 |
401Don, when Chris Illitch said that the Tigers were not selling 3 million tickets/season either. | ||
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies Post Number: 3043 Registered: 10-2003 |
I'm sure the Joe negotiations are having just as many issues with the mayor as the other projects pointed out in this freep article. http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs .dll/article?AID=/20080820/NEW S01/808200369 quote: quote: |
