  Fmstack Member Username: Fmstack Post Number: 75 Registered: 06-2007 |
Apologies -- if this duplicates an extant thread, I'll take it down. I was just wondering if anyone has heard recent news about the Volt. Are they still planning on making it at the plant south of Hamtramck? | ||
Detroitrise Member Username: Detroitrise Post Number: 3388 Registered: 09-2007 |
Last I heard, they were still experimenting with it. As of right now, the Volt will be assembled at Detroit-Hamtramck. | ||
Mikeg Member Username: Mikeg Post Number: 1738 Registered: 12-2005 |
It's no longer in the "experimenting" stage. The GM Board of Directors approved the Volt for production back in June 2008 (source). That means that the GM product and manufacturing engineers can begin spending big $$$ on the production design vehicle and tooling. | ||
Fmstack Member Username: Fmstack Post Number: 76 Registered: 06-2007 |
That is fantastic news, Mike! | ||
56packman Member Username: 56packman Post Number: 2407 Registered: 12-2005 |
will replacing the batteries cost as much as replacing the engine in our current gas burners? | ||
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge Post Number: 8173 Registered: 10-2003 |
Just take the same advise that holds true with conventional cars: don't buy the first generation. You'll spend all your time taking it in for recalls. Let the people who think cars are something cool to spend money on test it out for you. | ||
Jita1 Member Username: Jita1 Post Number: 26 Registered: 08-2008 |
I hear ya Johnlodge. I would love to have one of those though. I bought my car in February and already have over 12,000 miles on it, mostly from commuting to and from work. Although my car gets about 26 MPG combined mileage, I've spent a small fortune on gas. An electric car would almost be like hitting the lottery right now. | ||
Mikea Member Username: Mikea Post Number: 88 Registered: 03-2008 |
Rent the movie "Who Killed The Electric Car?". GM had an electric car ages ago but bowed to pressure from big oil. Talk about a movie that will just make you even more pissed off over today's gas prices. It's sickening to think about how advanced electric cars would be today and how less dependent we could and should be on big oil. | ||
Ggores Member Username: Ggores Post Number: 269 Registered: 10-2007 |
Aside from the debates about big oil, American transportation in general, and "skyrocketing" fuel costs, this is truly good news for people in our region who need a Jay Oh Bee. In the line of work I am in, our company deals with cutting-edge technologies which also include the automotive sector - though it has taken a shear beatin' since, ohhhh, starting around 1998. But now we are beginning to seek out the upcoming auto-work, instead of avoiding it like the plague. Of course, just about all the rules are different now, but give it another year or so, and once again I believe that Detroit (meaning the Big 3) will survive and begin to put all these new platforms on the assembly lines. Yeah, it'll never be like it used to be, but nothing ever is as it "used" to be. And Chrysler's announcement today to invest, what?, 2.8 billion in Jefferson Assembly, is reminiscent of when they built the Auburn Hills Tech Center back in, what?, 1992 or something like that. There's still some bitch-slappin' that our car company's need to endure, but it appears that the designers, program managers, and the plant managers are truly committed to making a profit. And, good for all, it results in smartly designed automobiles, and smartly designed work forces. Now, what I think would be hilarious is when all the new, green technology becomes affable to the manufacturer's, gas will be realistically priced at about 2.80 a gallon, now that would be... laffable. Rent the movie "Blue Collar" with Richard Pryor, heh heh, that guy... he one funny mudder! | ||
Mikeg Member Username: Mikeg Post Number: 1740 Registered: 12-2005 |
quote: Forget those "big oil" conspiracy claims. Time Magazine's "The 50 Worst Cars of All Time" succinctly explains why GM "killed" the EV-1. quote: (Message edited by Mikeg on August 13, 2008) | ||
Ggores Member Username: Ggores Post Number: 271 Registered: 10-2007 |
^^ correct. I worked... actually spear-headed a project to support Ford Motor's hydrogen fuel cell technology and worked over there at the research lab off of Mercury for a couple years. Sure, the cars WORKED well enough, but the main problem was in BATTERY EFFICIENCY. Technology has come a long way since then. | ||
Funaho Member Username: Funaho Post Number: 74 Registered: 11-2007 |
Here's something I have often wondered about electric cars...how would you charge one of those suckers if you were a city dweller with street parking only? I can't imagine having to run an extension cord from the house out to the car. | ||
Nainrouge Member Username: Nainrouge Post Number: 2861 Registered: 05-2006 |
Yeah, I can affirm that the lead acid batteries were crap. I had similar ones in my Ranger EV. The NiMH batteries, on the other hand, were awesome but expensive. As the price of batteries come down (as they are) and new technologies emerge (as they have) the cars will become more and more attractive. I am on the wait list for a Volt. My guess with street parking is that you wouldn't be able to charge them. There are, of course, public chargers available but you need specialized chargers (and thus a garage or dedicated parking spot) to charge them at home. I guess if these became really popular, that the city would eventually provide street charging ability, but I wouldn't hold my breathe... | ||
Peachlaser Member Username: Peachlaser Post Number: 212 Registered: 08-2006 |
JohnLodge says, "Just take the same advise that holds true with conventional cars: don't buy the first generation. You'll spend all your time taking it in for recalls. Let the people who think cars are something cool to spend money on test it out for you." Just make sure that enough people buy them that they stick around. I've seen good products disappear because people waited. Of course, the sly way is to encourage everyone else to buy and then wait for the 2nd edition yourself. Nainrouge says, "My guess with street parking is that you wouldn't be able to charge them. There are, of course, public chargers available but you need specialized chargers (and thus a garage or dedicated parking spot) to charge them at home." There are parking lots in downtown L.A. with photovoltaic and regular current sources there for electric vehicles to recharge. | ||
Ggores Member Username: Ggores Post Number: 275 Registered: 10-2007 |
ummm... L.A. is nowhere near around here though. | ||
Gumby Member Username: Gumby Post Number: 1797 Registered: 11-2003 |
From what I hear the engine for the Volt will be made at a new plant up here in Flint. So yeah I would love for the Volt to be successful. http://www.mlive.com/flintjour nal/business/index.ssf/2008/08 /volt_buzz_electrifies_environ m.html | ||
Peachlaser Member Username: Peachlaser Post Number: 213 Registered: 08-2006 |
"ummm... L.A. is nowhere near around here though" True. But, L.A. has set the beginning example for how you support electric vehicles. That was my point. If Detroit is going to be releasing electric vehicles, I would think that Detroit needs similar infrastructure. | ||
Gravitymachine Member Username: Gravitymachine Post Number: 2238 Registered: 05-2005 |
some production volt teaser shots, word on the street is that there will be more to see at the "GMnext" event on september 22, which is their 100th anniversary http://www.autoblog.com/2008/0 8/14/gm-releasess-new-producti on-volt-teasers | ||
Ggores Member Username: Ggores Post Number: 277 Registered: 10-2007 |
L.A. does set the example for this. But in Detroit, well, I don't think that any further infrastructure can be created until the current one is brought to modernity, and I just do not see that happening any time soon. Perhaps in the outlying suburbs, okay. | ||
Goat Member Username: Goat Post Number: 10298 Registered: 10-2003 |
Actually there were battery powered cars in the early part of the 20th century. The Foxley house in Windsor still has the battery charger in the garage. | ||
Gravitymachine Member Username: Gravitymachine Post Number: 2239 Registered: 05-2005 |
yes indeed, inclucing those made by the detroit electric car company http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D etroit_Electric | ||
El_jimbo Member Username: El_jimbo Post Number: 736 Registered: 12-2006 |
I think they should make life size versions of windup cars. | ||
Smogboy Member Username: Smogboy Post Number: 8568 Registered: 11-2004 |
Has anyone got a projected price on the Volt yet? | ||
El_jimbo Member Username: El_jimbo Post Number: 737 Registered: 12-2006 |
They say that initially it will be in the ballpark of $40k, but as they scale up and refine the process they hope to get it much lower in future model years. | ||
Detroitrise Member Username: Detroitrise Post Number: 3394 Registered: 09-2007 |
$40K isn't a bad price considering the big step being made here. Heck, a gas-guzzling Royce or Bentley cost more than that. | ||
Smogboy Member Username: Smogboy Post Number: 8570 Registered: 11-2004 |
Personally I'm not super stoked about owning a Volt anytime soon, but I would like to see some of the technology developed in this car trickle down to more consumer friendly everyday cars. | ||
Wally Member Username: Wally Post Number: 494 Registered: 12-2003 |
quote:Is it only going to cost pennies to recharge these cars? Honestly, does anyone ever ask that question? Watch your electric bill go through the roof. | ||
El_jimbo Member Username: El_jimbo Post Number: 738 Registered: 12-2006 |
Detroitrise, People who are buying a Bentley or a Rolls aren't worried about gas prices. Also the Volt will not be as finely appointed on the inside as one of those cars would be either. Although some views of the interior look REALLY cool (think gigantic IPod). A good site to get info on the volt is here http://gm-volt.com/ | ||
Gravitymachine Member Username: Gravitymachine Post Number: 2240 Registered: 05-2005 |
quote: this is being developed as a consumer friendly everyday car. what makes you think it won't be? | ||
Sstashmoo Member Username: Sstashmoo Post Number: 2183 Registered: 02-2007 |
Wally, Oh no, they'll have free electricity everywhere you go. Because you know electricity is actually free. Even though it's primarily produced from fossil fuels. Must be free fossil fuel too. LOL This thing is going to be a major flop. The utility companies are lickin' their chops don't think they aren't. | ||
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge Post Number: 8189 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: Source, or speculation? I've read stories of people with home made electric cars who spend about $3.00 a night charging them, and they don't have anywhere near the technology of GM. Now, if large amounts of people start buying electric cars, it may be a different story. But that's why GM has entered into agreements with utilities to figure those issues out. | ||
Wally Member Username: Wally Post Number: 497 Registered: 12-2003 |
quote:Just speculation and honest curiosity. Heck, running an air conditioner makes my electric bill skyrocket. I don't see an electric car requiring less energy. I'd be interesting in some hard data. | ||
El_jimbo Member Username: El_jimbo Post Number: 739 Registered: 12-2006 |
Wally, It shouldn't be that expensive. the battery they are using holds 16KWH of power. the gas generator that recharges the battery while you drive doesn't kick in until 50% of the stored power is used. This means that on a full charge, you can drive 40 miles on 8KWH of power. If you plug it in at night, the price to recharge will be whatever your per KWH rate is during the hours you have it plugged in and the amount of power between 8 KWH and 0 that needs to be charged. For example, according to the site I linked, the average household price for electricity in Michigan in 2007 was 8.35 cents/KWH during off peak hours. Lets assume that you live 20 miles from work. Your daily round trip commute would be 40 miles (the amount of distance a fully charged Volt can go on battery power alone). If you made this drive and plugged your car in at night to charge your cost to recharge the battery would be 8.35cent/KWH x 8KWH (the energy used traveling 40 miles on battery power alone) or 67 cents. If you repeat this 4 more times for a 5 day workweek, your weekly commuting costs are $3.35. Thus for less than one gallon of gas, you can commute to work from 20 miles away for an entire week with a Volt. Tell me that isn't a significant cost savings. | ||
_sj_ Member Username: _sj_ Post Number: 2431 Registered: 12-2003 |
I am sorry but 40k is a lot of money and places the vehicle outside the price range of the average car shopper. Plus the price is climbing. What is the Honda Clarity looking at between 27 and 37k. | ||
El_jimbo Member Username: El_jimbo Post Number: 740 Registered: 12-2006 |
Initially they were hoping it would start around $30k, but they think it will be somewhere around $40k (I'd guess high 30s) the first year or two and then go down from there. The issue is that the first few years they will be doing a more limited production because they want to make sure the process for development is PERFECT. | ||
Detmsp Member Username: Detmsp Post Number: 4 Registered: 08-2008 |
sj, the honda clarity is not for sale so there is no price. you can only lease it, and the lease payments do not even come close to paying for the car. it is nothing more than a testing project / pr stunt, which is why they are only leasing about 100 claritys | ||
El_jimbo Member Username: El_jimbo Post Number: 741 Registered: 12-2006 |
Detmsp, bingo...plus the fact that there are only 3 locations in the US (I think all in california) where there is hydrogen to fill up. Not exactly convenient. | ||
Hornwrecker Member Username: Hornwrecker Post Number: 2050 Registered: 04-2005 |
In Detroit during the 20s and 30s, there were battery charging stations that are found in the old Sanborn maps spread around the Downtown area. | ||
Mikeg Member Username: Mikeg Post Number: 1741 Registered: 12-2005 |
quote: I'm not an electrical engineer but even I know that is an overly-simplistic analysis. Every battery I have re-charged has needed a transformer and during the charging process, both the battery and transformer get very warm. That warmth is electricity that I paid for and never got to use because it was lost as heat in the charging process. The same thing happens as you re-charge an electric vehicle, and again as you drive it, since some of the stored energy is lost as heat (although with regenerative braking what would have been brake pad heat becomes electricity that is sent back to the battery). The whole electrical generation and transmission process is very inefficient as compared to the refining and distribution of petroleum. I would speculate that if you looked upstream at the BTUs contained in the fossil fuel energy needed to drive an EV for one mile at a steady speed versus a gasoline powered ICE over the same distance you would find that the EV wastes much more energy. | ||
Nainrouge Member Username: Nainrouge Post Number: 2916 Registered: 05-2006 |
Peachlaser, the parking spots in CA were public parking spots, such as at the airport or in garages. There were a bunch in Costco too I believe, however, there would be a problem charging at home if you didn't have a dedicated space somewhere to do it. You couldn't reasonably put chargers at each street parking spot. However, for lots of people this is not a problem. Nextenergy was building a hydrogen fueling station for Detroit. I am not sure if they have completed it yet, though. | ||
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge Post Number: 8202 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: I would speculate that you are right at this point in time. Though I think 100 years of top notch engineering and research helped. With the Volt, that talent is being pointed in a new direction. Even if it isn't a game changer, this knowledge could be very important. | ||
Funaho Member Username: Funaho Post Number: 76 Registered: 11-2007 |
Electricity at least has the advantage that it can be generated from domestic sources, namely natural gas and coal. Neither is completely clean (especially the coal), but at least they're not imported, and in *theory* you're at concentrating the fossil fuel usage in one spot where you can better control the emissions. | ||
Smogboy Member Username: Smogboy Post Number: 8572 Registered: 11-2004 |
quote: this is being developed as a consumer friendly everyday car. what makes you think it won't be? For starters, the price tag is a little steep. For half the price I could step into a nicely appointed Chevy Malibu. Trunk space? There doesn't seem to be much there either. It's obviously a very nicely appointed car and will have its niche but how functional is it for most folks? I'm not asking for something as utilitarian as a WWII Jeep but I'd much rather see this sort of cutting edge technology applied across the board to a myriad of vehicles if it truly is that great. | ||
Gravitymachine Member Username: Gravitymachine Post Number: 2241 Registered: 05-2005 |
quote: i agree with you on the price thing, but supposedly it will come down as economies of scale are realized and demand picks up. how do you know it won't have much trunk space? no specs on these finer details have even been released yet. i don't know the specs, but i work at GM and they are really doing everything they can to make this look like a different kind of car, but function like any kind of "normal" car outside of the drivetrain | ||
Kevgoblu Member Username: Kevgoblu Post Number: 150 Registered: 02-2007 |
Unfortunately I think GM bought into Bob Lutz's predisposition for building roadsters and other niche vehicles to impress people and get attention at the Auto Show. What the car looks like, really is irrelevant. The true question is the functionality of the driveline. If it works, you can put it under the hood of any vehicle you want. I wonder how much of the technology is propriatary and thus (should be) immune from competitor theft. | ||
Smogboy Member Username: Smogboy Post Number: 8575 Registered: 11-2004 |
Gravitymachine, take a look at the cutaway shots from their gallery section. As it is, the rear wheel well practically backs up into the bumper with minimal trunk space at best. Look at the rake of the rear deck/hatch- the angle doesn't support a generous space. Even from a layman's point of view of just the exterior- this vehicle doesn't have practical trunk space. http://www.carbodydesign.com/a rchive/2008/01/09-chevrolet-vo lt-updates/Chevrolet-Volt-dime nsions-lg.jpg Now you and I can debate what is practical and functional about trunk space and how much one needs. I'm hoping that this sort of technology will come forth and help salvage and save GM a little bit. Lord knows GM has always been one of the slower companies to enact new designs and utilize cutting edge technologies. | ||
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge Post Number: 8212 Registered: 10-2003 |
Smogboy, I don't think that picture is official in any way. From what I can tell, anyway. The only official production model pictures released are here: http://news.cnet.com/8301-1112 8_3-10017228-54.html?hhTest=1 Your link is to info from January, meaning it solely applies to the concept model. | ||
Gravitymachine Member Username: Gravitymachine Post Number: 2242 Registered: 05-2005 |
smogboy, that's the concept car you're looking a there. the production car will have many of the same design cues, but with overall different proportions and dimensions, mostly due to aero-testing, and other factors, like functionality, federalization, etc. One of the people working directly on the project (bob boniface?) said as much in an interview at some point this year, and i think bob lutz was quoted as well saying that the concept was nearly as aerodynamic backwards as forwards or some such thing, probably an exaggeration, but you get the point. | ||
Gumby Member Username: Gumby Post Number: 1799 Registered: 11-2003 |
quote: Isn't it just as possible that it is a rear engine car? I mean the motor probably won't be that big as it is only going to be basically a generator and wouldn't need much more than the space at the rear. | ||
Nainrouge Member Username: Nainrouge Post Number: 2918 Registered: 05-2006 |
There will be lots of people who will buy one because of the statement that it makes, not because of the trunk space. You want trunk space, buy that Malibu. You want to stop funding terrorists and big oil, get a Volt. The question is if there are enough people who will want one for these idealistic reasons or if people will reject the Volt because it doesn't have the interior space or performance specs that people have come to expect in their oversized land yachts. The Smart seems to be doing well (although I don't know how profitable they are) because they are "cool" to a certain subset of people. There is a waiting list of about 6 months to get one. I think that they will probably have to sell the Volt for less than the production costs until they can get to economies of scale. This is, of course, what Toyota did with the Prius. I like to see GM be on the cutting edge. GM actually has some of the best engineers in the world, it is just that their prototypes never make it into production. I hope the Volt makes it. I, for one, will buy one. Oh, and they are using the Malibu as their "mule" vehicle, so I wouldn't be surprised if the Volt ends up looking similar. | ||
Smogboy Member Username: Smogboy Post Number: 8577 Registered: 11-2004 |
Gravitymachine, thanks for the clarification. It just seems as though so many of GM's competitors go straight from concept to production nowadays it seems like the norm now. My initial thoughts were based on the concept vehicle. | ||
_sj_ Member Username: _sj_ Post Number: 2433 Registered: 12-2003 |
quote: Thanks for the info. It may be a PR stunt but at least they are ahead of the curve. But I must ask what makes this any different? an over priced car that will not sell well and then be re-evaluated? | ||
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge Post Number: 8214 Registered: 10-2003 |
It allegedly has a waiting list of 33,000. But I don't know how to interpret that, honestly. | ||
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge Post Number: 8215 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: This is unofficial. My post does not constitute an endorsement.  But it might be interesting to some. | ||
Detmsp Member Username: Detmsp Post Number: 7 Registered: 08-2008 |
sj, they aren't really ahead of the curve. GM has 100 fuel cell vehicles in the hands of normal americans too (search "project driveway"). the only difference is that honda is charging people to be their testers. and GM is doing it for free. |
