Discuss Detroit » Archives - July 2008 » Is Detroit really that poor? « Previous Next »
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Iheartthed
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Username: Iheartthed

Post Number: 3404
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Saturday, August 16, 2008 - 8:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Not according to Pricewaterhouse Coopers. Apparently, Detroit's gross domestic product is higher than Madrid, Moscow, Sydney, Phoenix, Shanghai, Rome, Tel Aviv and many others. It's ranked just behind Toronto.

Furthermore, when you sort Detroit's GDP per capita, it's ranked above every non-American major city in the world; including London, Paris and Tokyo. The per capita GDP of Detroit is equal to that of Philadelphia, and greater than the GDP of both Boston and Washington, D.C.

Just an FYI...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L ist_of_cities_by_GDP
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Lilpup
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Post Number: 4879
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Posted on Saturday, August 16, 2008 - 8:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

GDP doesn't indicate the prevalence of poverty, just total output. That GDP is also probably for the metro area.

Detroit proper has more people below the poverty line than almost every other major city in the country.

It's called 'the wealth gap.'

btw, those GDP figures for Detroit are probably a lot lower than they used to be. At one time not too long ago Detroit used to be the top exporting city in the nation.

(Message edited by lilpup on August 16, 2008)
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Lmichigan
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Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 6210
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Sunday, August 17, 2008 - 12:18 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes, these are for American metros, and American cities are generally tops in productivity for the simple fact that we have considerably less vacation time than most other developed nations.

Something also to make note of, though, not all nations use the same measurements for production, so these are very approximate comparisons, at best.

(Message edited by lmichigan on August 17, 2008)
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Crawford
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Username: Crawford

Post Number: 315
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Posted on Sunday, August 17, 2008 - 12:53 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wait a sec, these are for American metros, not cities.

Also, what do you mean by relating productivity and vacation time??

The U.S. has more vacation time than basically all nations outside of Western Europe and Canada, and has among the highest levels of hourly productivity on earth.
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Sean_of_detroit
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Username: Sean_of_detroit

Post Number: 1493
Registered: 03-2008
Posted on Sunday, August 17, 2008 - 1:15 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Can it be said that poverty in America is very different from poverty in majority of the rest of the world?
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Lilpup
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Post Number: 4885
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Posted on Sunday, August 17, 2008 - 1:20 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

no
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Sean_of_detroit
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Username: Sean_of_detroit

Post Number: 1497
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Posted on Sunday, August 17, 2008 - 2:17 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

LOL, K!

I really worded that wrong... and may still be wrong in this...

Poverty in America is tough, no doubt about that. However, many still have more resources available than many other countries. Poverty is not measured differently in different areas...?
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Lmichigan
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Post Number: 6212
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Posted on Sunday, August 17, 2008 - 2:32 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Crawford,

Where are you getting your information of vacation days? A World Tourism Organization study found Americans took just 13 vacation days, on average, as opposed to 42 for Italy, 37 for France, 35 for Germany, 28 for the UK, 26 for Canada, etc...Every other study I've seen shows a similar trend: American vacation far fewer days than most of the rest of Europe. Not to mention that unlike almost every other country we have no statutory minimum employment leave.

(Message edited by lmichigan on August 17, 2008)
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Lilpup
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Username: Lilpup

Post Number: 4886
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Posted on Sunday, August 17, 2008 - 3:23 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Poverty is not measured differently in different areas...?"

Yes, it is. Do not confuse lack of a Western industrialized lifestyle with poverty.

"The poor are poor relative to what it takes to make ends meet and participate as citizens in contemporary U.S. communities..."To have one bowl of rice in a society where all other people have half a bowl may well be a sign of achievement and intelligence.... To have five bowls of rice in a society where the majority have a decent, balanced diet is a tragedy."

The American poor don't live in developing countries

(Message edited by lilpup on August 17, 2008)
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Rid0617
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Username: Rid0617

Post Number: 262
Registered: 03-2008
Posted on Sunday, August 17, 2008 - 4:21 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Another good example is poverty here is a TV without cable. Poverty in other places is not even having electricity to power the TV you don't have.
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Sean_of_detroit
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Username: Sean_of_detroit

Post Number: 1502
Registered: 03-2008
Posted on Sunday, August 17, 2008 - 4:23 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thank you for that! That was exactly what I think I was doing.

The things you learn on DYES...
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Lilpup
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Username: Lilpup

Post Number: 4887
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Posted on Sunday, August 17, 2008 - 4:56 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Not quite, Rid, but here's a prime example from a 2002 article:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/worl d/2002/nov/03/usa.georgebush

"New Haven's (CT) tent city was established after the authorities closed down a homeless overflow shelter a few weeks ago. At sundown yesterday it was to be cleared by the police, with Charlene, Scott, Rod and 150 others sent on their way into what promises to be a vicious winter.

New Haven is a metaphor for the America which on Tuesday elects its Senate and House of Representatives. It is the country's fourth poorest city, where the ghetto laps at the walls of a university worth $11 billion (£7bn) in tax-exempt endowments, educating America's next generation of rulers. A sign at the freeway turn-off advertises New Haven as the birthplace of President George Bush.

It is a city with the same infant mortality rate as Malaysia and a terrifying rate of deaths from Aids - one day care centre alone commemorated the loss of 600 clients at a memorial service on Wednesday. But it is located in America' richest state, Connecticut, which has, proportionally, more millionaires than any other."
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Gnome
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Post Number: 1652
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Posted on Sunday, August 17, 2008 - 7:25 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

lilpup, you're speaking in "relative" terms. Nothing wrong with that, but it doesn't reflect the on-the-ground reality of being poor outside the US.

Having lived in really poor parts of the world, I can say with absolute certainty that being poor in a place like Haiti or El Salvador or The Gambia is not pleasant. Not only don't folks have houses or hosiptals, there are no "day care centre's" to die in. At least New Haven folks have a place to die. Fair? Nice? no. But try hanging out in a country where dead people stink up a street corner for days, get chewed on by dogs and rats ... that's poor and as bad as we have poverty, we ain't got it that bad.

No doubt there is poverty here in the good ol' USA. Edwardo, the homeless guy down near Chene Park, lives close to what poor folks live like in other parts of the world. Head on down there to Orleans and Atwater, he's very nice, and has no problem talking with folk. He's a little bent and he's smelly; but he's nice. Bring him a Calzone and make a friend.

Now, Edwardo is an exception. He's got the tri-fecta going on: he's crazy, he's an illegal, and poor. But he is in great physical shape. Thin, strong and crafty.

It is the sad truth that, Edwardo aside, poor folks in the USA are much heavier than rich folk. Poor folks here in America eat at Mickey D's and the King, and Popeye's in alarming numbers.

But they are eating. In many cases eating themselves to death. In The Gambia poor folks eat at the garbage dump. They eat dead fish that wash up on shore. In The Gambia they eat fish guts soup. Cold. Cold because they don't have enough money to buy charcoal to cook it.

In the Haiti I saw ... own eyes, not a study or report ... poor folks eating a tree. A palm tree. Mother chewing the tree and passing the pulp to a child with the whole bloated belly thing going on. To make the scene more pitiful she had a soon-to-be-dead infant sucking on her scabby and deflated breasts. She was 25, looked 60.

Now are there poor folks in America? Yep. Real poor. Dirt poor. But I don't think many eat cold fish guts soup for dinner, and any one of them could walk into a library and read for the day.

(Message edited by gnome on August 17, 2008)
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Gazhekwe
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Username: Gazhekwe

Post Number: 2485
Registered: 08-2007
Posted on Sunday, August 17, 2008 - 8:42 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

We lived on the edge of town, had central heat, a phone and indoor plumbing. Not much cash, and we did eat bone soup sometimes. Our relatives on the res, 14 people in four rooms, with no phone, no indoor plumbing, no central heat, had a TV and felt richer than us, as we had no TV. Out there, there were no phone lines, no sewer or water lines, none of the land was perkable, and nobody had central heat. What makes poverty does vary according to the community standard.
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Ggores
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Username: Ggores

Post Number: 295
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Posted on Sunday, August 17, 2008 - 9:12 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I seen places in the world where children wade in sewage runoffs (aka Shit Rivers) while tourists toss them nickels and dimes, and them kids dive into the water to get them.

I like the remark about poverty being equated to not having cable t.v. So true. And if the air conditioning in the car goes out - whoa! MAJOR dilemma!

Nearly everyone I know is poor, strictly speaking, ha ha, yet the majority of us lack for nothing. Nothing. Hell, we're Americans!

As far as some journalist's rendition of GDP, well, it's a bit over my head.
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Lilpup
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Username: Lilpup

Post Number: 4889
Registered: 06-2004
Posted on Sunday, August 17, 2008 - 1:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"you're speaking in "relative" terms"

The definition of poverty at the individual level is in "relative" terms.
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Chuckjav
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Username: Chuckjav

Post Number: 607
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Posted on Sunday, August 17, 2008 - 1:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lies, Damn Lies, and Statistics; think about it...

In the per-capita realm; one person, worth 100-Million Dollars, can make a whole helluva lot of poverty stricken folk appear to be pretty dang well-off.

Think about what Bill Gates does to inflate the per-capita wealth of his neighborhood/community.
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Thoswolfe
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Username: Thoswolfe

Post Number: 79
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Posted on Sunday, August 17, 2008 - 2:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

^^
Omaha boosters very quickly point out statistics of their area's net wealth and income. They conveniently forget that a significant factor is Warren Buffett and friends' wealth.
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7051
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Posted on Sunday, August 17, 2008 - 9:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

yes.
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East_detroit
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Username: East_detroit

Post Number: 1983
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Posted on Sunday, August 17, 2008 - 10:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

One reason to pay attention to median income and not mean income.
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Lilpup
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Post Number: 4965
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Posted on Tuesday, August 26, 2008 - 1:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Detroit tops list of impoverished large cities
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Danny
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Username: Danny

Post Number: 7672
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Posted on Tuesday, August 26, 2008 - 1:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Is Detroit really that poor?

ANSWER: We're poor with capitalistic possessions, but we rich in spirit.
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Mortalman
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Username: Mortalman

Post Number: 110
Registered: 03-2007
Posted on Tuesday, August 26, 2008 - 1:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Watch how you answer this tricky republican question!
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Danny
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Username: Danny

Post Number: 7673
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Posted on Tuesday, August 26, 2008 - 2:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Gnome,

Great post! Poverty exists not only in Detroit and other American cities, but everywhere around the world. My question is who is feeding the poor? GOD, JESUS, THE HOLY SPIRIT. Or man? Surely God put food upon every tree and grass in the Earth. The animals eat it and survive. However a long time ago man was eating along the fruits of the trees and vegetables in the grass, but when they become smart they started to farm the trees and grasses, domesticating most of the animals and eat meat. When man became to smart for his own good, he hold all the fruits, vegetables and meat and became rich. He either share it with anyone or not at all. When man have all their possessions, he wanted new stuff that he never seen before. So he traded with his neighbor and age of money begin. When man developed civilization, he developed processing and chemicals and put it in food. Then, he made food available to the masses by capitalistic profitabilities. People who have the money will buy food, either cook it, eat it or save it. Later as man developed civilizations, farmers who are rich will expand their food supply and farmers who became poor lost their possessions and later work in industrial factories in order to buy food, suplies and feed their families. When human race multiplied. Most people had already forget their natural survival skills. Man left nature behind so he grow his own Garden of Eden. As a result, his ideal of capitalistic overconfidence is like a "serpent" tempting man to eat the forbidden fruit and sin with their bodies to physical death.

Today as world hunger looms. People who lost their natural will to farm and domesticate animals are relying on eating McDonald's and Taco Bell and Pizza Hut and getting a buffet from the garbage cans from the corporate farmers. This processes will last until the end of the word and then will would see who would do the farming or hunting gathering in the world.
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Mortalman
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Username: Mortalman

Post Number: 111
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Posted on Tuesday, August 26, 2008 - 2:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

A tricky republican question followed by an even trickier democRAT answer. What a great country this is!
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Rhymeswithrawk
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Username: Rhymeswithrawk

Post Number: 1434
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Tuesday, August 26, 2008 - 8:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Detroit tops list of impoverished large cities"

Oh, that's B.S. This city has so much extra cash laying around, our mayor can use $8.4 million of it to cover up his illicit affairs and no one even blinks an eyelash.
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Softailrider
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Username: Softailrider

Post Number: 184
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Posted on Tuesday, August 26, 2008 - 10:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Not only does no one blink , there's a good chance he would be reelected if he was able to run for a third term .
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Kathinozarks
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Username: Kathinozarks

Post Number: 1436
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Posted on Tuesday, August 26, 2008 - 11:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Danny, I really liked your post. An interesting point of view.
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Peachlaser
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Username: Peachlaser

Post Number: 216
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Posted on Wednesday, August 27, 2008 - 8:33 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

In the late 1940's, my father was overcome with carbon monoxide and nearly died while working on the boiler in the basement of the Masonic Lodge in Ann Arbor. He suffered with lingering effects of this the rest of his life and had difficulty holding jobs. So, I always thought poverty was relative, because all of our relatives had money and we did not! Sorry about the joke about a serious subject, but thought it relative to the subject.

A lot of my uncles and aunts left the farms of southern Georgia during the Depression to work in the auto plants of Detroit. My mother told of taking food grown on the farms in Georgia and placing into 'Care Packages' for the families in Detroit that were suffering and barely getting by. As my Mother said, the family on the farms did not have much money or nice things, but they had food and that is what they shared.

I just received an email from a friend yesterday about a concept I had not heard of before. It is using the Internet to collect and distribute money and then track how it is used. If you get others to donate, you can track your total contributions as a group to see how your contributions have helped. Very interesting concept. It will be hard to match the $300 million we are spending a day in Iraq for the war, but it is a start. Here is the link... http://www.tenmillionclicksfor peace.org/

Something that has always bothered me is that in our focus of helping others around the world, we overlook groups like the Native Americans who are in our own backyard. I've traveled throughout the Western lands fairly extensively and have seen where the reservations have ended up. You can travel through some of the most beautiful lands on Earth and then suddenly you reach some of the most desolate and inhospitable lands and there is where you will find the reservations and Indian Nations. So, whenever I see programs for helping the poor around the world, I personally think we have a lot to do right here. Not against helping those around the world, but also want to help our own Native Americans. I think that being on the reservations, they are out of sight, so out of mind. And, I think that is wrong. So, I've pledged to myself that I am going to do something during my lifetime to change this.

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