  Youngprofessionaldetroiter Member Username: Youngprofessionaldetroiter Post Number: 171 Registered: 07-2008 |
Interesting debate about how to attract the 30-and-unders to the Detroit Region (Talking Metro here, not just the city) What do you all think? To preface I'd prefer statistical or anecdotal evidence over mere speculation. That said...let 'er rip. http://crainsdetroit.com/secti on/blogs?template=kramer/2008_ 08_01_kramerblog-archive.inc#3 955936196527085104 by Mary Kramer, Crains Detroit Business I had an epiphany of sorts last Friday as I sat and listened to what's becoming a common debate: Which comes first in the job-hunt of a young college graduate? Find the dream job or the dream place to live? There's something about listening to 50-and-up executives debate "what young people really want." That's what happened last week at a gathering of C-level execs at the northern Michigan Bay Harbor resort, sponsored by Deloitte and the Michigan Economic Development Corp. Before I describe my epiphany, let me first better describe the debate. In this corner is Lou Glazer, founder of Michigan Future Inc., a nonprofit think-tank in Ann Arbor that has focused on developing a "talent agenda" for Michigan. Glazer looks at research that shows Michigan is getting older and less prosperous in terms of per capita income. Our state needs more knowledge-based companies with higher-paying jobs, but Glazer argues -- and there's data to back him up -- that 20-somethings with college degrees who are hired in those industries prefer to live in Chicago, Portland, Minneapolis or Boston. Glazer believes Michigan must become more attractive to young talent or it will get older and poorer. In the other corner are executives like Dave Joos, CEO of CMS Energy Corp., who believes talent will go where the jobs are and that Michigan's biggest problem is its high costs of doing business. Lower taxes and other costs of doing business and companies will grow, attracting young talent to jobs. Joos and Glazer squared off, politely, during a panel I moderated last week at the Bay Harbor event. So here's the epiphany. First, it's not mutually exclusive. Michigan employers can show off "cooler" communities -- or support initiatives like light rail in metro Detroit -- because those amenities are important to young talent. Those issues should be part of a business agenda for many reasons, but one of them is to attract and retain young talent. At the same time, Michigan should restructure its cost of government to lower the cost of doing business in the state to better allow companies like CMS to compete with companies outside of Michigan. But the real epiphany was this: My guess is that the more technically trained a young college graduate is, the more likely he or she will move to the job they really want. Liberal arts grads, meanwhile, without a specific niche or job training, will gravitate to seek the PLACE they want to live before they actually look for the job. Have you hired anyone under 30 lately? Ask him/her: What do they think of the debate? Does the job come first or the lifestyle/place to live? I'd be interested in hearing the results. | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 4897 Registered: 06-2004 |
Perhaps 30-and-unders are overrated. | ||
Craig Member Username: Craig Post Number: 977 Registered: 02-2007 |
What's the qualitative difference between anecdotal and speculative evidence? Here's an observation: a lot of things about "Detroit" really suck for the younger crowd, but get beyond the need to get hammered in nightclubs and see first-run broadway shows and then Michigan looks a lot better. Good place to raise kids, mature, and then live out a retirement. | ||
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd Post Number: 2996 Registered: 07-2004 |
Well, it's a good place to raise kids, mature, and live out a retirement without your kids, because they've moved away.  | ||
Izzyindetroit Member Username: Izzyindetroit Post Number: 46 Registered: 07-2008 |
I'm under 30, I took the place before the job. I could have went somewhere out of state for twice the amount and almost did. Luckily the one job that I found here in Detroit was enough to move me to the place I wanted to be. I will say that without getting the job I would've went somewhere else until something opened up here. | ||
Frankg Member Username: Frankg Post Number: 514 Registered: 08-2007 |
Michigan already ranks 6th for small business and entrepreneurship by the Small Business and Entrepreneurship Council http://www.sbsc.org/home/ on the small business survival index. Michigan ranks 20th, about average, on the business tax index. My opinion is the people that whine about taxes are either selfish or ideologically programmed by Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity. But the reality is the data show that Michigan is a great place to do business. | ||
Youngprofessionaldetroiter Member Username: Youngprofessionaldetroiter Post Number: 172 Registered: 07-2008 |
"Perhaps 30-and-unders are overrated." Perhaps.  YPD | ||
Jasoncw Member Username: Jasoncw Post Number: 551 Registered: 07-2005 |
Yeah, I agree, I think both are true, depending on the individual. It also depends on the lifestyle one is looking for. Most metro areas have lovely suburbs (as does Detroit), so if the ideal lifestyle for someone is that, then that will be satisfied just about anywhere, so from there they will look at jobs. | ||
Sean_of_detroit Member Username: Sean_of_detroit Post Number: 1528 Registered: 03-2008 |
I am not Sean Hannity. Just making sure there is no confusion... | ||
Pffft Member Username: Pffft Post Number: 1661 Registered: 12-2003 |
I could have went somewhere out of state for twice the amount and almost did. Yes someone over 30 would have "gone" out of state, or not gone. | ||
Youngprofessionaldetroiter Member Username: Youngprofessionaldetroiter Post Number: 173 Registered: 07-2008 |
^^I'm not sure whether to be irritated with your condescending reaction or disappointed that it was the only thing you come up with to contribute to the discussion. C'mon, we're all trying to solve our region's problems. We can do better than jabby barbs about the grammatical quirkiness of the millenial generation. YPD (Message edited by youngprofessionaldetroiter on August 18, 2008) | ||
Focusonthed Member Username: Focusonthed Post Number: 1988 Registered: 02-2006 |
I found the job first, but then when I found a job in the place I wanted, I bolted immediately. I got a similar job in another midwestern city that paid double what I was doing in Detroit (Southfield, to be exact). I couldn't afford to just move somewhere and hope a job happened. But when the opportunity came up later, about a year later, I was gone. | ||
Pffft Member Username: Pffft Post Number: 1663 Registered: 12-2003 |
YPD, You might find, when you've been here a while, that it's hard to make people post the way you want them to ...not really worth the effort. | ||
Tkshreve Member Username: Tkshreve Post Number: 485 Registered: 07-2006 |
I agree ^^^. I could not afford to move before finding a job as well. It is a big risk, and you need to save considerable money to just "up and leave" to try it in another city. Plus, any jobs I found out-of-college were pretty weak pay wise. Costs of living were growing, and it was increasingly tough to save that exact money. Need a car around here to have work. That comes with insurance, gas, maintenence and accessories. Need an apartment/house. Rent can be a paycheck swallower. Then, if ur younger, you still need to go out to the clubs and get blasted. I did have many friends and acquaintences escape to cities they trusted, only to find work later. I was lucky enough to find a job where I can either grow, or go and put my experience to the test with my own business. Without that experience from the job I finally got, I would have wasted a lot of time sitiing idle. I did once consider taking a loan out to make an attempt to move on, so to speak. | ||
Sean_of_detroit Member Username: Sean_of_detroit Post Number: 1529 Registered: 03-2008 |
Hmmm, well... Yes. I know a couple who is in there late twenties. They are from Kally's camp. Lets call them couple A. They moved to the area for a job in the suburbs, from up North. Job dictated place... the place was the far exurbs of Metro Detroit. Couple A has a job in the exurbs. They constantly drive downtown though. Partying, eating, or just visiting/picking up friends from the airport requires strenuous driving, which they don't seem to like. There was talk of going "out on their own" (start up), but we'll see. Couple B is another couple, friends of ours, lower income from the start, drifting around Metro Detroit, and the guy didn't have a license. They are early twenties, and aloped after she got pregnant. They are doing really good actually. Unlike Couple A, Couple B dropped out of college. They ended up moving based on neither. They chose to commute and stick close to family. The job and location were based on that. Couple C is an interesting one. They are very similar to us actually. They are choosing to do the odd route of odd jobs, and saving for a business start-up. Place is important, but more general. Job and place would go hand in hand here. The risky entrepreneur spirit is seen all over the USA... they could do it anywhere. Why Detroit? Good question! I will have to ask them... and for myself, I couldn't answer either, without some thought. Couple where are we, D? Couple D is a real diamond in the rough I think. College degrees, and always following job. Moved over and over.... and are no longer in Michigan. They are right around thirty I think, but definitely better off then any of the previously mentioned. Or are they? They are always stuck moving. It's true, there degrees got them a lifetime of employment, but that employment moves constantly. Traded, downsized, up-sized, reversed back, and then sent to the East from West coast type stuff. They just had their first child. Sounds like fun, doesn't it? Finally is Couple E or... yes E. Couple E is really the one I envy. Early to mid 20s I think. They have kids.... had them a long time ago. They're already in school. You could compare their environment to an urban prairie. Nothing to unsafe around... one abandoned house. Job dictating location? Here's a summary; They don't have bags of money. When the kids were younger, they would save up the empty boxes, and re seal them with weights inside, so that social services would think they had more food in the house then they actually did. The guy works in construction all over the USA. He travels... driving a truck from job to job working for the government. He's not around much, but is around, and an active parent... as much as he can be. She is a full time parent, and has no job. They work hard... and seem perfectly happy. That's always the thing that gets me. There places is always full of people. Not, criminals or ingrates like you would picture. No, just friends and family... always around, and always checking up on them to make sure they're alright. They picked that place.... because frankly, that's the only place they could afford. They are the happiest people I know, and you know, it confuses the heck out of me. What's weirder, is they always seem happy, no matter what. All the other couples (and us) are always in a constant pursuit of happiness, and couple E has the nerve to just be happy with what they have. Seriously, can you believe this crud? As hard as the others try, they are chasing a dream. That is the answer to the debate question I think. It's not job or place, but rather envy and desire. What is their goals, and what is important to them. There also is a couple F... but they're not really worth mentioning as they aren't even together. They were together at one point, but kind of drifted... one is about thirty, and still hasn't gotten off the dang couch yet. While Couple F's life has absolutely no plot, and no happiness... and that couple scares the heck out of me... Good topic! Did I say to much? (Message edited by Sean_of_Detroit on August 18, 2008) | ||
Focusonthed Member Username: Focusonthed Post Number: 1990 Registered: 02-2006 |
Sean, visit poorer areas of Mexico or other "third-world" countries. EVERYONE personifies your Couple E. Really opens your eyes about the true value of possessions. Unfortunately, when you come home, you still gotta have those possessions, lol. But now, at least you'll stop and think sometimes. | ||
Giver108 Member Username: Giver108 Post Number: 12 Registered: 06-2008 |
When I graduated college 10 years ago and moved to the Metro Detroit area I followed approx. 5-6 friends of mine who all originally grew up in Northern MI and relocated here for jobs. Shortly after moving here I met a bunch of other people from other areas of the state doing the same thing. After these 10 years, I am the only one left. The pattern was similar. They all worked here for 2-5 years at most then bailed to places like Denver, Portland, Chicago, NYC, California, etc. I believe in almost every case they moved from MI to fit their lifestyle, not the job. Half of them don't even work in a field their degree is in. I think the only reason they moved here in the first place was for sort of "test run" to see what it was like living in a larger metropolitan area. As they worked here and vacationed elsewhere it became apparent to all of them that they liked city life, just not around Metro Detroit. | ||
9936sussex Member Username: 9936sussex Post Number: 170 Registered: 10-2007 |
My daughter (22) graduated from college in 2007. She attended college out of state. I pretty much knew that she wouldn't be home after she graduated from college. She's in Chicago, has a job in the field that she wanted, and is very happy. It's expensive to live there (has a roommate) parking is crazy, but every time her dad or I mention coming home--she just rolls her eyes. For right now, she's where she wants to be. | ||
9936sussex Member Username: 9936sussex Post Number: 171 Registered: 10-2007 |
She decided she wanted to live in Chicago, so she moved in with a friend, found a job (via an agency) and then found another job 8 months later that she liked better. It's worked out OK for her, but she is much more of a risk taker than I am (or was, for that matter). | ||
Ggores Member Username: Ggores Post Number: 301 Registered: 10-2007 |
"I am not Sean Hannity. Just making sure there is no confusion..." LOL. Good one there. Look, I've been offered, been tempted, been hung many mucho bucks to leave the region. Did it once, but as the old saying goes, fool me once - shame on you. Fool me twice - shame on me. The jay oh bee comes first, in my opinion. From that point, well, it gets very tricky. There's nothing I would love more than to work in The City, however, a current conundrum is that a move needs made if I want to keep the current kick-ass Jay Oh Bee. It entails going far - yet not too far. I can deal with it, but maybe others can't. Detroit needs Jay Oh Bee's. And not just IT Professionals, of high-tech positions. We build stuff. That's what Detroiter's do. We invent things, we measure twice and cut once. And, of course, there is a definite need for high-tech know-how's in this new age of industrialization. THIS is exactly why The Mayor needs to go. Perhaps the CC needs to go. Instead of DetroitYES!, maybe there should be a DetroitLISTEN! AND WAKE TF UP! I know, many are trying and working they asse's off to achieve a reciprocal existence between politco's, big business, and the regular, every-day Kwame Six-Pack. But when ya gotta move, ya gotta move. Simple. | ||
Youngprofessionaldetroiter Member Username: Youngprofessionaldetroiter Post Number: 174 Registered: 07-2008 |
"You might find, when you've been here a while, that it's hard to make people post the way you want them to ...not really worth the effort." True...I'm not gonna get all hung up on what people decide to post. I certainly can't expect everyone to agree with me, either. At the same time, I want to challenge the way we as community talk about our disagreements. And while I can't change what people say or what they think, I will forever challenge us to have healthier ways of pushing dialogue forward. If we can't even do that in here, we definitely won't be able to do it in the public forum and our exchange of ideas will quickly turn in to the Freep.com comment section. I can't believe that the consequences of that would be good for the city we're all here to help. Y'all might think I'm naive...you might -- as a city councilwoman mentioned -- say, "This is Detroit, what do you expect"? Anyone can attack me to their heart's desire, and people can beat each other up on this board, for all I care. But agree or disagree I will not give up on trying to get us all to be kinder to each other. A little more kindness might be a little refreshing in a region as dysfunctional as ours. Yes, that is really "worth the effort". YPD (Message edited by youngprofessionaldetroiter on August 19, 2008) | ||
Detroitduo Member Username: Detroitduo Post Number: 951 Registered: 06-2005 |
I no longer fit into the 30 and younger category, but at that time in my life, I was looking for a JOB to get experience. An interesting thing happens when you get a job... you get money, which you can spend doing things you want to do or have dreamed to do. You visit places and you form new opinions. I always used to think, "hey, who cares WHERE the job is, you can travel to where you want for the weekend or vacation!" However, as I come close to the big 40, my mind is changing. I no longer want to sit on a plane on my weekends. I no longer want to travel to the places I like. I would rather simply LIVE in that place. So, now I am searching for ANY job in those places I WANT to live. Detroit does not offer me the lifestyle I want, nor does Michigan. This is very sad for me, because the D has a special place in my heart. But I find myself drawn to other places, more (warmer places, if you will). So, I guess for me, it was JOB first. but I think with experience and exposure, people get drawn to lifestyle. In the end, I think if Detroit had the Urban lifestyle I am drawn to, I would not leave... but at my age, I can't wait another 10 or 20 years for this City to get it's act together. Priority 1: JOBs (of ALL types. DIVERSIFIED!) Priority 2: URBAN EXPERIENCE (we have plenty Suburban already.) | ||
Craggy Member Username: Craggy Post Number: 336 Registered: 10-2003 |
Warm weather is severely overrated. Warm quickly becomes HOT in the summer. Summer in the south is kind of like Winter here. You spend all day indoors. | ||
Detroitduo Member Username: Detroitduo Post Number: 953 Registered: 06-2005 |
I guess that is why there is such a massive migration of people from the North to the South? That was not my point, just my personal preference. reread my post. | ||
Detroitrise Member Username: Detroitrise Post Number: 3424 Registered: 09-2007 |
Craggy, water is very underrated. Otherwise, Detroit would be a huge boomtown & not Phoenix. | ||
Digitalvision Member Username: Digitalvision Post Number: 1125 Registered: 11-2003 |
I agreed. I think we need to participate in a little restrictive economics and not ship our water away. Want water? Move and invest here! If nature wanted to put water in Arizona or more water in Georgia, it would have. | ||
Publicmsu Member Username: Publicmsu Post Number: 740 Registered: 11-2003 |
Craggy - absolutely not true. In the winter in MI you cannot be outside in the morning (or all day long) as it's below freezing. In the summer, in the south, you can spend time outside enjoying the cool morning weather before it gets hot outside. The weather is one thing that I will not miss about MI. | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 3418 Registered: 04-2006 |
quote: Detroit was a huge boom town... Until air conditioning. | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 4910 Registered: 06-2004 |
"In the winter in MI you cannot be outside in the morning (or all day long) as it's below freezing." You don't have any winter clothes? | ||
Pffft Member Username: Pffft Post Number: 1671 Registered: 12-2003 |
In the winter in MI you cannot be outside in the morning (or all day long) as it's below freezing. Below "freezing" is unbearable? And to think people used to go skating outside, sledding, skiing...folks really are wimpier today. My parents would send us out to play on winter days all the time! Freezing is 32 degrees. That's totally bearable. Those of us who love Michigan tend to love the outdoors, and it's beautiful in the winter as well. |
