Discuss Detroit » Archives - July 2008 » Kilpatrick releases Cobo Center plan « Previous Next »
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Sg9018
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Username: Sg9018

Post Number: 232
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Sunday, August 24, 2008 - 1:21 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Kilpatrick releases an architectural plan for the Cobo Center renovation. Even thought the legislature has not addressed the financing and governance of Cobo.
Wayne and Oakland County was " miffed " by the release plans. L Brooks said this,"That's a helluva way to treat a partner."
More in the Detroit News,
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pb cs.dll/article?AID=/20080823/M ETRO/808230447
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Rustic
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Username: Rustic

Post Number: 3272
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Sunday, August 24, 2008 - 1:27 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What was LBP expecting? .... a text message from KK?
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Gistok
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Username: Gistok

Post Number: 7226
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Sunday, August 24, 2008 - 2:24 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I bet if he had some architectural renderings from Dan Gilbert of a potential Quickens HQ on either the Statler or Hudson block, he'd be posting them as well.

He's obviously trying to show is ever shrinking base that he's "bringin' home the bacon for Detroit". How pathetic. And I'm sure LBP and other regional leaders see right thru that. But his "lemming" base eats this shit right up as showing he can still deliver.

One thing on a positive note... it appears that Cobo Arena may not be doomed after all. Many on this forum don't much care if it gets demolished, but a few (me included) really would not like to see the destruction of Cobo Arena.

I actually would rather see JLA demo'ed.

Cobo Arena could be one of those nice examples of civic mid 20th century architecture that remains intact. Although the riverfront side of Cobo Center still wears its' 1960 facade, the rest of the complex has been expanded and reclad in a more modern style.

I don't much care for the seating in Cobo Arena (too dated and cheap looking)... but the room itself has some architectural potential, since it is somewhat of a rotunda. Since its use as a performance venue is so infrequent, it would be nice to turn it into a massive convention space with some interesting architectural details added to make the interior more impressive.

Tearing down Cobo Arena and re-routing the curved drive from Jefferson to Atwater seems like such an expensive waste of a building who's granite clad exterior isn't too bad for mid 20th Century architecture.

It's a helluva lot more attractive than the corregated metal looking facades of JLA.

(Message edited by Gistok on August 24, 2008)
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Royce
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Username: Royce

Post Number: 2779
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Sunday, August 24, 2008 - 3:16 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

First of all, why isn't there a rendering of the plan in the paper? Secondly, why the hell is Beaumont Hospital and Cobo expansion being discussed in the same breath? At this rate, Cobo will never see an expansion.
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Sean_of_detroit
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Username: Sean_of_detroit

Post Number: 1592
Registered: 03-2008
Posted on Sunday, August 24, 2008 - 3:34 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It's tough to comment without more details. Do you guys think moving the main entrance to the river front is a good move? While it would be nice to get people to the Riverwalk, what would happen to the Washington and Congress sides? Would the lack of a main entrance facing the Financial District have a negative affect on the area?
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Royce
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Post Number: 2780
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Posted on Sunday, August 24, 2008 - 3:53 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Gistok, I'm with you on saving Cobo Arena. I think it is just as much a signature landmark in Detroit's skyline as is the Renaissance Center.

I have on several occasions advocated that Cobo Arena be used as part of Cobo Hall's expansion. During the last Detroit Auto Show(NAIAS) that I attended, Cobo Arena was being used as a food court. To adequately use Cobo Arena, the seats need to be removed. Then fill the arena with some floors above the current below ground-level floor. The additional floors along with using the ballrooms will give Cobo Hall additional floor space without having to build outside of the current configuration. It's worth a try.
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Detroitstar
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Post Number: 1293
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Sunday, August 24, 2008 - 9:11 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What if they tore down the JLA and put a new arena where Cobo Arena is? Obviously they would not be able to save Cobo Arena, but that location would be much more pedestrian friendly. Also, being located more centrally to Hart Plaza and the Riverwalk would increase pedestrian usage of both those area.

Connecting the new arena to the convention facility would allow it to be used for high profile events such as a political national convention or other top level events. This setup would be much like New orleans or Houston, which have some of the most productive uses of convention space in the nation.
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Zrx_doug
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Username: Zrx_doug

Post Number: 555
Registered: 03-2008
Posted on Sunday, August 24, 2008 - 12:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This is what I don't understand about our mayor (well, aside from the lying, adultery, theft, assault, and possibly murder stuff)..why, in a city that's so hard up for cash he claims we must sell our assets (tunnel) to make payroll, does this administration INSIST on spending massive amounts of cash & labor fixing things that AREN'T FUCKING BROKE?
Seriously..Cobo's a little small, a little old-fashioned..but it get's the job done.
Meanwhile, all over the city we've got dead trees falling over, sidewalks heaving & cracking, pavement going to hell, and abandoned buildings that actually NEED to be removed..not to mention the alleged cash shortage/payroll issue..there's no money for these real needs, why can they always find it for their pet projects?
It's like putting a 10,000 dollar paint job and a new set of spinners on a car that needs a transmission..it makes no sense.
WTF is the administration's thought process?

Edit (Needed more cowbell)

(Message edited by ZRX Doug on August 24, 2008)
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Spiritofdetroit
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Username: Spiritofdetroit

Post Number: 1178
Registered: 11-2006
Posted on Sunday, August 24, 2008 - 12:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

cobo wont get the job done for much longer without an update. the auto show is the top economic event in the city and region each year. cannot afford to lose it.
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Mackinaw
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Post Number: 5281
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Posted on Sunday, August 24, 2008 - 1:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

LBP doesn't think the majority of seats should go to Detroit + Wayne? What an ass...
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Zrx_doug
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Post Number: 558
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Posted on Sunday, August 24, 2008 - 1:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

As if we would ever "lose" the auto show..you're buying into the drama. The NAIAS folks have no plans to ditch Detroit so long as we've still got GM, Ford, & Chrysler headquartered in the area..and if any (or all) of those three fold up their tents, what reason would there be for the show to continue here?

As for the auto show being the "top economic event," is that for real, or just a gut feeling you've got?
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Detroitrise
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Post Number: 3461
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Posted on Sunday, August 24, 2008 - 1:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

No, we won't lose the Auto Show, it will just become more regional (since auto companies already continue to back out & other regional shows have higher attendance).

I'd rather "THE MOTOR CITY" had the "INTERNATIONAL MOTOR SHOW"!

Everyone wants "THE MOTOR CITY" to be "AN INTERNATIONAL CITY", correct!? Well one way to do that is beef up our Auto Show, and that won't happen with the limited space at COBO.

(Message edited by DetroitRise on August 24, 2008)
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Spiritofdetroit
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Post Number: 1179
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Posted on Sunday, August 24, 2008 - 1:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Doug -

I forget the numbers, but it is discussed yearly, and it is the number one economic event, even more so than the super bowl. i believe it is a $600 million a year boost.

And you better believe it will move. Chicago is making a great push to become the number 1, and in recent years GM and Ford have unveiled more and more cars there. Watch out. We'll have a show, but it may not be the one we've got now.
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Zrx_doug
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Post Number: 560
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Posted on Sunday, August 24, 2008 - 1:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'd rather have a lesser show and fixed sidewalks than another shiny new hubcap on the junk car our city's becoming, ya know?
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Lefty2
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Username: Lefty2

Post Number: 1834
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Posted on Sunday, August 24, 2008 - 1:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

For $288,000,000. you could build a brand new 1,000,000 sq ft facility.
(You know there is going to be huge million $ cost over runs as always)
Kwame the desperate despot back stabbing again.
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Detroitrise
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Post Number: 3462
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Posted on Sunday, August 24, 2008 - 4:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Zrx_doug,

-lesser show means lesser revenue

-lesser revenue means lesser money in the vault

-lesser money in the vault mean worser sidewalks.
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Detroitrise
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Post Number: 3463
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Posted on Sunday, August 24, 2008 - 4:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lefty2, possibly...

Unfortunately, LBP will jump in front of a semi-truck just to have it built in Oakland County.
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Zrx_doug
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Post Number: 561
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Posted on Sunday, August 24, 2008 - 4:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Obee-kaybee..first off, "lesser" is a word.."worser," not so much..
:-)

I mean that I would as soon see the show continue at it's current level as opposed to blowing funds to make it marginally larger.
Since we both acknowledge that the show ain't going anywhere so long as the "big three" (middle three? bottom three? whatever) remain in Detroit, let's invest our cash in actual civic improvements instead of more gaudy doo-dads to display on the front lawn of our decrepit house.

This city doan' need no more pink flamingos out front, it needs a new roof and siding, and maybe a visit from the exterminator to get rid of those pests that are eating up the foundation..
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Dbc
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Post Number: 144
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Posted on Sunday, August 24, 2008 - 4:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm so tired of LBP's whining and obstructionism.

A "partner?" Since when has that asshole done anything but try to stand in the way of an expanded Cobo? Call me nutty, but the word partner implies some sort of cooperation between the parties. Seriously, does that arrogant ass even realize full of crap he is?

And, why shouldn't Detroit and Wayne County have a majority? The convention center is in the freakin' city and Wayne County. I pray the city and Wayne eventually find the money to go forward with the expansion of Cobo on their own so they don't have to deal with the naysaying obstructionist bullshit of Brooks and Oakland County.
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Gotdetroit
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Posted on Sunday, August 24, 2008 - 4:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

DBC: I couldn't agree more. Problem is, it's not going to happen. The hotel tax (which in my mind is a no brainer...shit, why NOT have out of staters pay for the expansion?) is crucial. And because of that, Oakland and Macomb County's involvement in some form is a foregone conclusion.
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Dbc
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Post Number: 145
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Posted on Sunday, August 24, 2008 - 4:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yeah, I know it ain't gonna happen. That's why I used the word "pray." :-)
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Scooter2k7
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Post Number: 126
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Posted on Sunday, August 24, 2008 - 5:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Just build a new one in the suburbs already. This should be at the bottom of Detroit's priorty list.
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Dbc
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Post Number: 146
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Posted on Sunday, August 24, 2008 - 5:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Scooter, you're joking, right? If not, I'm even more tired of that idea.

Yeah, let's put it out in BFE so convention-goers stay in their cars and drive to chain restaurants and hotels and can stroll around strip malls, a shopping mall, and streets without sidewalks. Downtown has its problems, but with the Riverwalk and the dining and bar options, it puts a better foot forward than any convention center off of a freakin' freeway interchange out in the burbs.

Sorry, but a conference center in some ubiquitous suburb is a myopic, unimaginative idea.
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Digitalvision
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Posted on Sunday, August 24, 2008 - 9:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It's myopic, but LOTS of business leaders and residents of Oakland County want it.

The business community of Oakland County would love nothing more than a new convention center, in the northern burbs. LBP is considered a HERO by so many in Oakland County for being that obstructionist, and a lot of folks think that Oakland County should pull completely out of the agreement after the tax expires, because they feel they get no benefit.

They been floating private funding around - as a private/public partnership - for awhile.

There is a lot of money for developers in creating a mini-community around the convention center - or just creating something that has to be handled by shuttle buses and with a sea of parking.

Sure, it's more sprawl, but it's a model that works real well for L. Brooks Patterson and what he knows best.

I think it's stupid to build a second center. But I also think Cobo is crap, and needs a lot more than the infusion on the table.
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Lefty2
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Posted on Sunday, August 24, 2008 - 9:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

How come Detroit/Wayne Cty. can't expand it without other counties money if it makes grosses so much money each year. That's what I don't get.
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Detroitplanner
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Post Number: 1843
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Posted on Sunday, August 24, 2008 - 10:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The paper version of the freep has some large color illustrations of this plan. It actually looks somewhat reasonable. I can't imagine why it would cost what they say it will however.

What needs to be factored in is for the next auto show we should have a lot of extra convention space available for private parties. Remember the MGM had just opened, the Motor City was not available yet, nor was the Book. I am unsure of whether the Greektown will have their space done by then, but between those four that has to be another 200,000 square feet that could be used for product introductions, fancy soirees, and supplier shows. This would free up ballroom space in Cobo itself; only problem is that the weather is so darned unstable at that time of the year, and chances are it will be pretty darned cold.

As mentioned in other threads, street crime seems to be on an upswing as folks are getting desperate and the police are becoming more scarce. We should not forget about these sorts of issues or we will have a whole lot of reporters writing "I went to Detroit and got robbed by a crackhead" articles.

I am constantly amazed how they justify spending money on stuff like this because of economic benefits, yet they don't see the economic benefits in putting more cops and fire on the streets. I mean people want to live in places like Livonia, not because they are closer to Potbelly's but rather because there is less crime. This is clearly seen in some places having very stable property values.
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Sean_of_detroit
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Post Number: 1600
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Posted on Sunday, August 24, 2008 - 10:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This year is going to be the first year we have all three permanent casino hotels open (1200 new rooms). The Westin Book-Cadillac (450 rooms), and the Fort-Shelby Doubletree Suites Hotel (204 rooms), will also be open for the 2009 International Auto Show. Caesar's Windsor also has their new hotel tower that just opened (another 396 rooms). That is 2250 new hotel rooms, compared to last year. Not to mention, that our other hotels are all going through renovations or upgrades. That means the CBD alone has an astounding 5,100 rooms (I don't think that number counts New Center, East Jefferson, Corktown, fringe motels, or Windsor).

That is a lot of business. It will also be amazing seeing that extra 2,250 people walking around our International Downtown. Also, (and this is just a guess) I can see the People Mover ridership to go up significantly, as a result of the reversal, during the auto show. It will be cold, and most guests from both Marriott Hotels, Greektown Hotel, and possibly some from the Holiday Inn and Westin Book-Cadillac, will opt for commutes on the People Mover.

So, that is significant. More people seeing advertisements, visiting CBD small businesses, taxi services, casino visits, and Detroit/Michigan Souvenirs. A bigger show also means more jobs during set up and tare down. That is not to mention that a larger show means the need for more hotel rooms. Those hotels then use that money to reinvest in themselves, and bringing other conventions and meetings to fill their own space, throughout the year. That's not to mention all the job finders, marketing firms, logistics firms, and other B2B companies.

The Auto Show is NOT just a flamingo on our lawn. It's a HUGE source of revenue, jobs, publicity, and most importantly... it makes it more possible to operate a business in Detroit.

But, you are saying that a expanded Cobo, in general, is a waste of money. The auto show planners have said that they would most likely begin looking to hold portions of the show elsewhere if Cobo was not updated and expanded (keeping in mind, that old facility is often more expensive than better space in other cities). We have to react... you can't just say "whatever, take it or leave it".

Comerica Park, Ford Field, an improved People Mover, the improved Renaissance Center, renovated Guardian Building, our free/cheap festivals and concerts, the big theater productions, improved street scape, Riverwalk, Belle Isle, Campus Martius, expanded casinos, new Eastern Market sheds, the Dequindre Cut, facade improvement grants, and a renovated & expanded Cobo Hall might be a whole bunch of cheesy flamingos to you. However, those cheesy flamingos attract residents and businesses (jobs). The more flamingos you have, the more enticing living and working in big bad Detroit becomes. Take some away, and you take away reasons people want to live/work in the CBD. Add more, and you increase them.

It's very much like adding or improving an outdated menu at a restaurant, a old uninteresting ride at a theme park, or a old hotel room that hasn't been updated in several decades. You can't neglect your flamingos Doug...
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Novine
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Posted on Sunday, August 24, 2008 - 11:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm surprised that people haven't figured out LBP's game. He's not interested in building a new convention center, at least not with that money. Instead, he's holding out so that come 2015, he can get the Oakland County share of that money diverted back to the County. With residential real estate going down the tubes, even in the OC, Brooks is desperate to find some new revenue streams to stabilize the County's budget. He'll never suggest raising the County tax rate. But if he can tap into an existing tax, he'll take it. Notice how he never suggests letting that tax expire in 2015? He's not interested in it ending, just ensuring that Detroit can no longer tap into Oakland County's share for Cobo.
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Scooter2k7
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Posted on Monday, August 25, 2008 - 4:24 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dbc, I know it may seem like a silly idea that will probably never happen. But what a convention center in the suburbs not surrounded by homeless people begging for money, blight, graphiti, and abandoned buildings speaks better for this region.
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Sean_of_detroit
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Posted on Monday, August 25, 2008 - 5:24 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You need a center to the region. A central location would benefit all but the exurbs. Detroit is more of a geographical center (especially if you count Windsor as part of the region).

Our region already made it's decision. They already chose to show our guests a run down city center, with not much care about our communities, history, or children... let alone guests. It's that suburban hospitality. The only thing worse than Detroit's problems, is the suburbs indifference.

Seriously, what is worse? Allowing the world to see our problems and attempts to solve them... or having the world laugh at the awnings we try to put up to hide behind? Think long term results. The respect and pride we will get from solving these problems is far off, but will happen. It's a journey, and ignoring or hiding our problems is like hiding a gambling addiction. All you're doing is digging a deeper hole, while putting off the first steps to a long journey.

(Message edited by Sean_of_Detroit on August 25, 2008)
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Quonset_hut
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Posted on Monday, August 25, 2008 - 9:03 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

So - how did the $13,766,548 from the Tri-County Accommodations Tax get spent? Where has the tax been spent over its life?

http://www.crcmich.org/TaxOutl ine/Sales/at.html

I tried to read the law from 1985 but it just made my head spin. Seems that the whole basis of this is the Convention Center of at least 350,000 square feet (Cobo). But there is something in the law that says the tax $$ could possibly go to general fund expenses after bond payments, etc. I can't figure out if any of the $$ ever went to Oakland County...
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Mackinaw
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Posted on Monday, August 25, 2008 - 10:22 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think the proposal to use the arena space is fantastic.

http://www.crainsdetroit.com/a rticle/20080825/SUB/16549245/1 069/-/-/cobo-plan-hinges-on-il itches
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Rbdetsport
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Posted on Monday, August 25, 2008 - 10:48 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This plan is a great one and it needs to get done. Get this done and in a couple more years when the Wings move to a new arena, tear down Joe Louis and build a huge expansion to the west. It would have to total well over 500,000 square feet more. On a second expansion, cost would be down because the previous debt would be wiped away and the needed renovations already complete.

(Message edited by rbdetsport on August 25, 2008)
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Rjlj
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Posted on Monday, August 25, 2008 - 11:00 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I don't read you Rbdetsport. How would costs be down for the second expansion to the west?
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Novine
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Posted on Monday, August 25, 2008 - 11:03 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The money has been used to pay off the bonds from the last Cobo expansion.

http://community.oakgov.com/bl ogs/mythbuster/archive/2008/05 /28/cobo-hall-expansion.aspx

"This appropriation funds convention facility development distribution. In 1986 the state of Michigan established the convention facility development fund to assist in financing the expansion of Cobo Hall. Part of the revenue to fund the bonds was to come from a hotel tax levied in Wayne, Oakland, and Macomb counties. This was not sufficient at the time to pay principal and interest and coverage for the bonds. This revenue was supplemented with a statewide liquor tax. "

From the Mackinac Center.
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Rbdetsport
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Posted on Monday, August 25, 2008 - 11:17 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This first renovation of cobo includes extensive renovations of the interior because of neglect such as the heating and cooling system. A second expansion wouldn't require that. Also, building new is cheaper than reuse.
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Rjlj
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Posted on Monday, August 25, 2008 - 11:20 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Reuse is much cheaper than building new.
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Rbdetsport
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Posted on Monday, August 25, 2008 - 11:21 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You're wrong about that.

(Message edited by rbdetsport on August 25, 2008)
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Crew
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Post Number: 1450
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Posted on Monday, August 25, 2008 - 11:25 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You're

You are wrong about that.

You're wrong about that.

grammer lesson over
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Sean_of_detroit
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Username: Sean_of_detroit

Post Number: 1613
Registered: 03-2008
Posted on Monday, August 25, 2008 - 11:41 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"grammer lesson over"

Grammer should be grammar.

Spelling lesson over.
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Lefty2
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Posted on Monday, August 25, 2008 - 11:42 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

HA, too funny sean, good catch.
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Detroitnerd
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Posted on Monday, August 25, 2008 - 11:46 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Grammer should be grammar

And all sentences should end with periods.

Punctuation lesson over. :-)
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Lefty2
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Post Number: 1869
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Posted on Monday, August 25, 2008 - 11:46 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I worked on a 350 Mil class A high rise in LA and it cost just over 300.00 a foot.
They want to retrofit, upgrade, rehab etc. for over $1,000.00 a foot. There is something very wrong here.

How much is Kwame getting in Kickbacks from Ferguson on this deal?
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Fareastsider
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Posted on Monday, August 25, 2008 - 11:53 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This would be Cobo plan #343 by my count. What a joke it will never get done. Both sides make up plans and the other balks at it. It will never happen and if it does it will be 200 million over budget just to keep the auto show and never another large show anyways.
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Detroitrise
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Posted on Monday, August 25, 2008 - 12:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Grammer should be grammar

And all sentences should end with periods.

Punctuation lesson over."


All quotations should begin & end with quotation marks.

Punctuation lesson over! :-)
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Detroitnerd
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Username: Detroitnerd

Post Number: 3054
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Monday, August 25, 2008 - 12:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

DR: You have bungled my copy. I'm putting you back on the general assignment desk. :-)
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Gistok
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Username: Gistok

Post Number: 7229
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Monday, August 25, 2008 - 1:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sorry Zrx_doug, but you're way off base on rather spending money to fix up the city infrastructure rather than on expansion of Cobo.

This is NOT Detroit citizens revenue being spent on an expansion, but regional hotel, motel and restaurant/liquor dollars being collected for the Cobo expansion.

It would be politically impossible for the hotels and bars of the region to support city infrastructure fixes. So that is a non-issue.

As for saving Cobo Arena, it makes for a beautiful expansion of the existing Cobo without using the wreckers ball to start from scratch again.

The large rotunda interior will make for a very nice addition to Cobo exhibition space, and could also house smaller functions in that room alone. Those sketches are preliminary, and the look of the final rotunda could make for a very nice addition to downtown. Perhaps some muralists or other public artwork (such as the private funding of the People Mover station Art) could enhance the upper curved walls of the rotunda. It could enhance the otherwise drabness of the other rectangular halls of Cobo (Wayne, Oakland, Macomb, Detroit).
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Professorscott
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Username: Professorscott

Post Number: 1574
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Monday, August 25, 2008 - 1:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This is all just smoke and flash. Kwame released this to try to get the real story about him out of the papers, but it just won't go away.

I could make pretty drawings of a 200 mile subway system for the region, too. The fact that I can draw a picture of something is completely irrelevant to the question of whether the thing will be built.

I also question, and have questioned here repeatedly, the auto show's importance to the region. We are a very sick region, and we need basic things to work better before we can improve. Like the casinos, the auto show is a form of the "bread and circuses" the Caesars used to distract the Roman public from its situation.

I've never heard of any company saying "we didn't open our new office in Detroit because their auto show isn't big enough". I've never seen a 22 year old college graduate leave the region and say, "I'd love to stay, but my God, that teensy auto show". This isn't the problem with our region; we should be focusing on the problem, not getting distracted by irrelevancies.
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Digitalvision
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Username: Digitalvision

Post Number: 1169
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Monday, August 25, 2008 - 1:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It's the economic spinoff of the auto show, PS.

It creates a lot of jobs, and without the auto show, you have no convention center as that's basically Cobo's only reason to exist - the rest of the year, compared to other national convention centers, it's a ghost town with discounted rates to attract shows due to it's high labor rates and poor facilities. The auto show pays for pretty much everything else there. I read a statistic somewhere that it accounts for over 80% of Cobo's revenue, but don't quote me on it.
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Professorscott
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Username: Professorscott

Post Number: 1575
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Monday, August 25, 2008 - 1:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Digital, we don't offer discounted rates compared to other cities, because of the high labor costs. We don't get a lot of conventions for two reasons: number one, people don't want to convention in Detroit, and number two, the facility isn't great.

Now, if we had an otherwise great city that lots of people wanted to visit, then you could make the argument that solving the convention center problem would help you attract a lot of conventions, which would generate enough business to more than pay for the cost of the improvements.

But to spend hundreds of millions of dollars for a facility that by your own argument is only useful a few days a year - since we can't use that same money to fix any part of the other problem - seems to me excessive.

It's like painting the kitchen while your house is burning down, using the argument that one of the reasons nobody wants to visit our house right now is that the kitchen is inadequate. You may be right, but you're right about a completely irrelevant point.
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Jasoncw
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Username: Jasoncw

Post Number: 557
Registered: 07-2005
Posted on Monday, August 25, 2008 - 3:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think that Cobo is an investment that easily repays itself. If it costs 1 Billion, then the costs are recovered after a few years, and all of the years between that time and the next time it needs to be renovated are profits.

So lets say the Auto Show brings in .5 billion every year (it's higher than that, but this is more convenient). Then lets say Cobo will need to be renovated again in 20 years. Then let's say we spend 1 billion on the current renovation.

The first two years of economic benefit pays off the renovation. The next 18 years, at .5 billion a year, results in 9 billion dollars that the region wouldn't have had before.


I agree that the overall plan should be to fix the real problems of the city, but both can happen at the same time.
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Professorscott
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Username: Professorscott

Post Number: 1576
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Monday, August 25, 2008 - 3:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jason, the .5 billion that you say is an underestimate of what the Auto Show "brings in", goes where? Who has the $500M+ from this year's Auto Show? How can we make that person (well, those companies) use any part of it to do what we want?

"The region" doesn't have any money. "The region" does not exist except on maps. The governments, at any level, doesn't have the $500M either; they get pieces of it in the form of various taxes, which they use to cover expenditures they've already made. Various companies in many industries get the bulk of that money, which of course they spend on their own efforts and try to have a little left over for profit, which is why they exist.

Nobody is collecting it and saving it to pay for future renovations. If they had, for instance, we'd not be in the position we're in.
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Ffdfd
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Username: Ffdfd

Post Number: 339
Registered: 09-2006
Posted on Monday, August 25, 2008 - 4:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

I read a statistic somewhere that it accounts for over 80% of Cobo's revenue, but don't quote me on it.



Just to be funny, I quoted you on it.
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Jasoncw
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Username: Jasoncw

Post Number: 558
Registered: 07-2005
Posted on Monday, August 25, 2008 - 6:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I know that, what I mean is that people should be willing to work together, and be willing to spend the money to take advantage of the opportunity.
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Gistok
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Username: Gistok

Post Number: 7230
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Monday, August 25, 2008 - 7:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Professorscott, I understand your point, but the revenues generated to fund the Cobo expansion are mainly via bonds paid off by a "tourist tax".

No one is taking dollars otherwise destined for local infrastructure improvements and diverting it to the Cobo expansion.

KK aside, I like the rather prudent way that this idea is heading... rather than do a complete teardown of the riverfront portion of Cobo, they are utilizing what they have and making the most of it.

By the way, when CAY originally got Cobo expanded back in the 80's, he later wanted another $25 million to finish the job on the riverfront side (which is why the ballrooms/Cobo Arena are located). But that bond issue somehow never was passed, and so that is why the waterfront side of Cobo still has its' 1960 facade and interiors.

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