  Urbanoutdoors Member Username: Urbanoutdoors Post Number: 1059 Registered: 11-2005 |
As a lifelong Detroiter I find myself full of anti-suburb sentiment to the point that it can hinder me in certain aspects of my life. Still I am crazy and take pride in the fact that I am kind of anti suburb/Pro Detroit. Anyone else find them with this type of sentiment? | ||
Malcovemagnesia Member Username: Malcovemagnesia Post Number: 111 Registered: 12-2005 |
where do you do your grocery shopping then? | ||
Urbanoutdoors Member Username: Urbanoutdoors Post Number: 1060 Registered: 11-2005 |
University Foods, Honey Bee, and Eastern market | ||
Fareastsider Member Username: Fareastsider Post Number: 977 Registered: 08-2006 |
Yes you are kind of crazy. Its no different than someone from the suburbs hating and disliking Detroit. One of my biggest gripes on here is the pretentious "Im so great because I appreciate Detroit and well designed urban neighborhoods and people in the suburbs dont!" Detroit is hardly a very urban place when compared to better off cities and to many people ignore this fact. Detroit was and can return to the real dense city it was but to act that like it still is, is quite ignorant. We are on our way and things seem to be improving but the brewing suburb hate from Detroiters makes me sick. Just as suburban residents can learn a whole hell of a lot from the city by just going there or hell even moving onto a block the same goes for Detroiters. The suburbs have a lot to offer, see and do just dont be so closed minded. Then again what the hell do I know I live north of Hall Rd! What the hell could I know! ••• | ||
Zrx_doug Member Username: Zrx_doug Post Number: 720 Registered: 03-2008 |
No, I never felt that the suburbs were anything but the other side of whatever street you have to cross to get there. The only time I ever give city lines much thought at all is if I'm passing thru Redford, as several judges in that city have expressed a desire to separate me from my driver's license..  On the upside, I do realize that Canada is another country..I figure I'm at least one or two steps ahead of the clowns who've been pushing this "us vs the suburbanites" agenda. | ||
Erikd Member Username: Erikd Post Number: 1061 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: Props to Malcovemagnesia for giving us a perfect example of the ignorant suburban mindset.... Many suburbanites seem to believe that groceries are only available at large suburban mega-chains, such as Wal-Mart, Meijer, or Kroger. Contrary to popular belief, there are many alternatives to these big-box mega-chains, even in *gasp* the city of Detroit. From the largest farmers market in the state (Eastern Market), to ethnic markets (such as Honey Bee), to specialty markets (such as Zaccaro's), to independent grocery stores (such as University Foods, Indian Village Market, Harbortown Market, or Mike's Fresh Market) there are many places to buy groceries without leaving the city. | ||
Malcovemagnesia Member Username: Malcovemagnesia Post Number: 112 Registered: 12-2005 |
you're welcome for the flame bait. There are plenty of suburbanites who have no reason or motivation to ever set foot into the city. I'm sure they (or their dollars) are not welcome, with your 'tude as well. | ||
Erikd Member Username: Erikd Post Number: 1063 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: Malcovemagnesia, I welcome suburbanites, and people from all around the world, to come to the city. However, I don't welcome people with condescending attitudes, spewing ignorance and an "I'm better than you" attitude. | ||
Evelyn Member Username: Evelyn Post Number: 339 Registered: 02-2005 |
I'd call it quaint. The distinction between Detroit and it's suburbs because less important, the farther one moves away from Detroit. Like it or not, the city and the suburbs are one area. And the two-way dislike drags the whole region down. | ||
Youngprofessionaldetroiter Member Username: Youngprofessionaldetroiter Post Number: 364 Registered: 07-2008 |
quote: quote: It sounds like there is lots lingering resentments and unexpressed anger that is coming to the surface. I also truly believe that all of it is valid given the experiences people have endured. But the anger is a poison that threatens us in a few ways: (1) Anger and resentment when unresolved will eat away at us over time. (2) It also gets in our way..."hindering" -- as you say -- our ability to move forward (3) It further perpetuates the very things that caused the anger to begin with. For what its worth, I don't like dealing with condescending people, either. But the way to get them to become less condescending isn't to react to them...it's to realize that they do so because of their own insecurities, and not because of you. You're better than that...you don't need their validation, and the anger they trigger in you is the red flag to you that you aren't strong enough in yourself. Lastly, the way we all move past this is stop seeing the suburbs and the city as separate entities. Especially as you expand your awareness to the the issues facing the state and the nation, it will become clear to you that the only people who view as separate are ourselves. The people in the suburbs need to do the same. And it's not about arguing over who goes first. The more people that step forward make it easier for everyone else to follow. The sooner we see us as one unit, the faster things get better for everyone. | ||
Digitalvision Member Username: Digitalvision Post Number: 1298 Registered: 11-2003 |
People are usually afraid or anti- things they don't understand - which is the key to suburbanites and Detroit. So many have zero clue what's going on, and they don't have any cause to because their lives are encapsulated 16-20 miles away from the city. So being a tolerant ambassador with those that have open ears is really what the city needs; and not letting the close-minded get to you (I've done it before, I know it's tough). I also think that both sides shit stinks and both sides are antagonistic to the other on a pretty regular basis. Life is not black and white, it's almost always shades of gray. Worrying about those minds' who you cannot change is really wasted emotional energy. If you have to deal with it, you make adjustments, you make compromises, and move on. | ||
Detroitrise Member Username: Detroitrise Post Number: 3609 Registered: 09-2007 |
Urbanoutdoors, I'm with you. Unfortunately, I must venture into the suburbs to fully meet my shopping needs (not necessarily food or clothes, but other household items). Usually the places in Detroit sell that same stuff at an inflated price. | ||
Bobl Member Username: Bobl Post Number: 78 Registered: 07-2008 |
It seems Detroit has always had a "we" vs "they" attitude. Earlier, it was based on ethnic and religious differences. Neighborhoods were defined by the local church. The city was a checkerboard of enclaves, with Woodward defining "eastsiders" and "westsiders". Later, the division was between African Americans, European Americans, Latino Americans. The smallest group, of course were the unhyphenated Americans ("Indians"). Evelyn is correct. This has, and does, drag the whole area down. How do we end this, and encourage a more regional or metropolitan attitude? | ||
Cinderpath Member Username: Cinderpath Post Number: 815 Registered: 05-2006 |
Sorry folks, like Evelyn posted, I hate to burst your bubble but anywhere else but SE Mich i.e the rest of the planet- any suburb of Detroit is still considered Detroit, so put that in your pipe and smoke it. Detroit/Suburb haters- we are indeed one. Get over it, and yourselves. When I do business in Switzerland, or NY, or LA, or Berlin- they don't know Corktown or Troy, and could care less for that matter, they only know Detroit. The whole division between the two is a sign of immaturity and lack of sophistication. Listen to what Youngprofessionaldetroiter says, he is spot on. Personally I want the whole region to prosper, the city and suburbs. (Message edited by Cinderpath on September 21, 2008) | ||
English Member Username: English Post Number: 823 Registered: 10-2003 |
"When I do business in Switzerland, or NY, or LA, or Berlin- they don't know Corktown or Troy, and could care less for that matter, they only know Detroit." I totally agree, and once again beat my drum -- it's provincialism! Too many SE Michiganders, no matter what their background, simply do not travel except to visit relatives or tourist destination hot spots (i.e., Disneyworld, a Caribbean cruise). Living somewhere else for a few years gives one a totally different POV on what is/is not normal. | ||
Cinderpath Member Username: Cinderpath Post Number: 816 Registered: 05-2006 |
Exactly English- I wish in fact more auto executives from the Big 3 had paid $100 to fill up small a VW Golf a 5 years ago in Europe, it was indeed are harbinger of things to come, same for our political leaders. They are so out of touch with the reality that is happening in emerging economies it is amazing. They blew past us, and we are still looking in the rear view mirror. This is indeed an extremely provincial place. I won't even start on what L. Brooks Paterson claims is a good quality of living because of the amount of golf courses in Oakland County. Never mind you have to rot in traffic to even get to them. The brain drain of young college grads leaving the region is quite alarming and disheartening to say the least. It is time for us to look outside the bubble that has burst, that we still think we are living in. Unfortunately Kwame was very successful and re-building the wall of city/suburbs, race and ethnicity. I for one won't have any part of it. | ||
Digitalvision Member Username: Digitalvision Post Number: 1301 Registered: 11-2003 |
+1 on the provincial attitudes. That really is a huge problem - and Cinder, you're right, we're all in one boat, despite what our local political leaders want to tell us. | ||
Urbanoutdoors Member Username: Urbanoutdoors Post Number: 1061 Registered: 11-2005 |
I do try to see it in many forms from both sides. I hate when I am in Auburn Hills at a concert and they say "whats up detroit" for some reason that just urks me although on the otherhand I realize that they aren't from here and have no concept of city boarders. I guess my anti-suburb sentiment grew when I went to high school in Royal Oak at Shrine and the kids would always say that you lived in the ghetto if you lived in Detroit and come up with all sorts of negative stereotypes so I guess as a teen I developed alot of anger towards the suburbs. That said not all of my shopping happens in the city and its not like I see every suburbanite as an enemy. I am a walking stereotype breaker and love it. There are not a ton of white lifelong Detroiters, and I consider my interaction with those from the suburbs key to help breaking the negative stigma towards the city and therefore do everything I can to get suburbanites to come and enjoy all the city has to offer. My roots in the city run very deep and I love my city. Therefore even though my cousin may offer me his house in Livonia for free for 2 years, while he is living in Germany, Detroit is such a part of me that I would rather pay inflated rent in the city and be broke. (Message edited by urbanoutdoors on September 21, 2008) | ||
Oldestuff Member Username: Oldestuff Post Number: 89 Registered: 01-2007 |
I'm a lifelong Detroiter, dealt with a lot of flack when I worked for living in the City - put on the defensive almost daily. I shop in the City as much as possible and only venture out to suburbs in Wayne County. I guess I'm sort of anti-Oakland County, took too much crap from people out that way. | ||
Cinderpath Member Username: Cinderpath Post Number: 818 Registered: 05-2006 |
Its great you challenge stereotypes Urbanoutdoors, even when at times it can be frustrating and challenging, but in the bigger picture, this is the only way positive change happens. I actually moved from Rochester to Ferndale to be closer to the city, hated it up there, and it works out well for me, as Ferndale is centrally located for my work. The less amount of time I can spend time behind the wheel, is time gained in my life as I see it. I actually had people tell me if I moved to Ferndale, I'd have to put bars on all my doors and windows. The only place in my life my vehicle was broken into was not on the Cass Corridor, or Ecourse, Springwells or Delray, but in the outer burbs of Rochester. My wife and kids and I go to the city all the time, in fact we spend much more time there, than other suburbs. I have friends who are life long residents in the city and are shocked that I tell them, or show them photos about parts of the city they did not know existed. That too breaks the stereotypes, you can't assume all non-residents or as they are often labeled here as "Suburbanites" are ill-informed about the city. We too tell friends about places we go in the city, and sure some of the make uniformed comments like "Aren't you scared", etc, but every now and then, a few will listen and go and have a great time, and change their perspective. Your not going to convert the masses with words, like everything in life, focus on individuals and slowly it'll change, just not always on the timetable we like. -Keep the faith, take the good stuff, dump the bad and the hate. | ||
Evander Member Username: Evander Post Number: 8 Registered: 06-2008 |
One thing I have always found funny is that in SE Michigan the label "suburb" has come to represent such a diverse group of communities that it hardly retains any meaning. thus grosse pointe woods is a suburb and so is river rouge. bloomfield hills is a suburb and so is romeo. all are defined and permitted to identify with each other on the basis of not being Detroit. where class could have been a unifying factor, race has always been the dividing one. I must admit to being "annoyed" at inner-ring suburbs like ferndale and royal oak, because I view them as "bottlenecks" to the city's recovery via gentrification. the same sort of people you would consider "city people" that would live---and raise their families---in Chicago or Brooklyn or Boston are told YOU CAN'T LIVE IN DETROIT when they get relocated here or when they get jobs here, so they buy houses in ferndale or royal oak and still maintain this perception of being "city people" because both ferndale and royal oak do have the sort of amenities you might be accustomed to in your gentrified neighborhoods of other big cities. in that way both ferndale and royal oak seem more like "nice" neighborhoods of Detroit rather than separate municipalities, without providing any benefit to the city of Detroit. they are suburbs, but they have morphed into what "real" cities are like in most parts of the country. meanwhile, detroit itself continues its long decline. When I lived in detroit I always resented ferndale and royal oak for being so much like other gentrified cities and I resented the people who lived there for thinking they were urbane city-dwellers when, in my view at the time, they simply didn't have the sack to live in the real city south of eight mile. But my resentment for the exurbs or some of the other communities in oakland county was based more on the (false) perception that everyone up there was a rich racist republican asshole who moved there to get away from people like me. So basically, yes I have felt resentment towards the suburbs in my lifetime. But it's very complicated. Probably because the idea of homogeneity of the suburbs is pretty ridiculous. | ||
East_detroit Member Username: East_detroit Post Number: 2104 Registered: 11-2003 |
Government loves when you play into their hands. Divisiveness is a common way to do this. L Brooks Patterson and Kwame Kilpatrick laughing it up together while their "constituents" hate each other for no good reason (other than to elect and re-elect the divisive "leaders). Democrats and Republicans... same thing. Who said that there is an imaginary line at 8 Mile? Make it one regional government and stop the nonsense. But that will never happen because people are lead to dislike each other. | ||
Mikeg Member Username: Mikeg Post Number: 1846 Registered: 12-2005 |
Residents of Detroit and the surrounding tri-county region could also benefit from a better historical understanding of their symbiotic relationship and demographics. "Exhilaration - a walk out on the Gratiot road in the morning and meeting a hundred loads of wood and 50 tons of hay coming to market, gives us a grand idea of the great city and it's power of consumption." - Detroit Free Press, Tuesday, Nov. 16, 1869 Where was that wood and hay coming from? Warren Township, Clinton Township, maybe even as far away as Chesterfield Township, but that would have meant an all-night wagon ride on rutted roads to get to Detroit. You can be sure that similar loads were also coming to market along the Woodward road, the Grand River road and the Michigan road. Who was cutting all that wood and hay? They were hard-working folks who lived in rural, semi-rural and incorporated areas of Wayne, Oakland and Macomb counties. They lived, farmed and worked outside the Detroit city limits, relying on the "the great city and it's power of consumption" for their financial success and also to purchase the extras for their household that they couldn't grow or make by themselves or locally. The many descendants of these original "suburbanites" prospered over the years, right along with their counterparts in the city of Detroit. In 1910, 24.1% of the total Wayne, Oakland and Macomb County population lived outside the Detroit city limits. The 1910 population of Detroit was 465,800 and there were an additional 148,000 people living outside the Detroit city limits in Wayne, Oakland and Macomb counties. This number grew to 500,000 by 1930 (22.9% of the total population), 653,000 by 1940 (27.5%) and 1,077,000 by 1950 (35.7%). This population growth did not come at the expense of the City of Detroit, which also continued to grow during this same time frame. The population growth continued for both areas through the 1950 census, but for the first time beginning in 1930, Detroit's population growth rate was less than the outlying areas, a trend which continued through the 1950 census, after which Detroit's growth rate went negative. Conservatively estimated, more than half of the current tri-county population outside the Detroit city limits have never resided in Detroit, nor do they have any ancestors who ever resided in Detroit, and thus the "fled and abandoned" arguments and anti-suburban sentiments fall on the deaf ears of a majority of that population. The only way to engage them is to appeal to the economic benefits that the region will enjoy as a result of a rejuvenated and healthy city of Detroit. | ||
Cinderpath Member Username: Cinderpath Post Number: 820 Registered: 05-2006 |
Evander, interesting perspective. I'm going to call a spade, a spade here. The reason I'm not living in Detroit, has absolutely ZERO to do with race, or other socioeconomic reasons and is solely based on two criteria: Geography and quality of government/city services. As I said before, it is much closer to the places I need to go to, again, commute times for me matter, and I have to commute to the whole region. The second reason, and most important is that city services and schools in Detroit are terrible compared with where I currently live and property taxes for these services are much higher. This is a simple fact. When I call the police, they are here within minutes, if I have a gripe I can easily go to a city council meeting and it is not a circus, or or call the city I don't get the run around. Wether we like it or not, there is the perception both real and imagined of how the City of Detroit conducts its business that it is corrupt. Businesses in today's world when relocating, or willing to set-up simply are not going to tolerate this, when they can easily go elsewhere and not deal with this sort of BS. Until this is realistically dealt with, economically, culturally the city will and whole region will not advance. That's the facts. You yourself write about people relocating: "YOU CAN'T LIVE IN DETROIT when they get relocated here or when they get jobs here, so they buy houses in ferndale or royal oak and still maintain this perception of being "city people" because both ferndale and royal oak do have the sort of amenities you might be accustomed to in your gentrified neighborhoods of other big cities." -I hardly think of myself in Ferndale as and urban city dweller, far from it, and find the notion laughable, anyway you yourself answered your own question/comment. Create the amenities and services, and they will come. Without it, and the situation remains as it currently is. Then you mention: ".... they simply didn't have the sack to live in the real city south of eight mile" And I respond by saying why should we? Life is is complicated enough without worrying about minor details if the city is going fix the street, pick up the trash, of if the neighbors house burns, is there enough water-pressure from the fire-hydrant to put the fire out. (recent true story) or the police will show up. Could having the "Sack" versus wasting time in one's life dealing with these issues is not appealing to everybody. And I am fully aware of the urban pioneer types trying to make the place better. I applaud them. That is great when you have time, but like many raising a family and trying to run a business or time consuming career in tough economic times, it is simply too much. Truth be told though, I am not alone here, but people simply expect these things, if its not there, they move on. Rather than being "annoyed" at inner-ring suburbs like Ferndale and Royal Oak, I'd recommend reaching out to people these communities, their residents are the ones sitting on the fence closest to Detroit, and are actually the ones most sympathetic to the city's plight, and also the ones most open to relocate, when things improve to meet their standards. And note, I did say "their" standards. Yes, they can vote with their feet, and already have. If you want to bring, jobs, money, shopping, economic development and more cultural options, the status quo in Detroit in regards to city services/amenities are lacking to say the least. People here are hardly anti-city. Rather anti-incompetence. It is not this way in Chicago, Toronto, San Francisco or Boston. Political leaders who say "That is just how we do it here in Detroit" are morons, and should be held to higher standards. Fortunately recent political events will hopefully change this for the positive, and bring the region together. Like I mentioned in previous post there is more than enough frustration and lack of knowledge on both sides, but it is at its core provincialism, that is getting us on the fast track to nowhere. Thanks for the post and thoughts, and no I don't view them as any way shape or form hostile, and don't want to discount them, and appreciate the frankness. | ||
Tayshaun22 Member Username: Tayshaun22 Post Number: 444 Registered: 02-2005 |
Mikeg, that's nonsense. You and I both know that every resident of the suburbs left Detroit in the 50's/60's. | ||
Mortalman Member Username: Mortalman Post Number: 282 Registered: 03-2007 |
All this "tribal" horseshit is so boring! People are going to believe what they believe and any effort to change other people's minds is a GIANT waste of time. The world is changed one person at a time by the efforts of one person directed towards his own evolution. Anything more than that is.....Well, you figure it out because I already have and decided it's not worth my time or effort. | ||
Bearinabox Member Username: Bearinabox Post Number: 864 Registered: 04-2006 |
I don't like most suburbs, in that I don't find them very appealing places to live or spend time. I don't hate people who live in the suburbs just because they live in the suburbs, and I certainly don't regard the suburbs as "the enemy" or anything like that. The entire region is in trouble, and the entire region needs to work together to find solutions that benefit everyone. Troy should not be competing against Auburn Hills. They should both be competing, along with the rest of the metro area, against other large metropolitan areas across the country. | ||
Cinderpath Member Username: Cinderpath Post Number: 822 Registered: 05-2006 |
Great post Mikeg, the insight from a historical perspective is always great, especially when people want to view it through the prism of the '67 riots and beyond. Like was pointed out, there are a lot of shades of grey here. The only constant is that were are all in the same geographic boat here when viewed from a distance. | ||
Jb3 Member Username: Jb3 Post Number: 498 Registered: 06-2007 |
Bearinabox, I like your optimism. The truth of the matter is though, that these cities have to compete with each other because they are all trying to sell the same product. The market is flooded with cul-de-sacs and strip malls and they want to keep selling that same product because, between 1940 and 1990, it worked for them. When federal funding for highways and state funding for roads and infrastructure opened the doors to unchecked growth, these cities came to like what they tasted. The only way for Detroit to stage a come back will have be from up on high (State of MI). The state will have to come to terms with its overall geographic area and the resources it can produce in those areas and set limits for what cities can become. I'm going to go back to what MikeG said about the City being a center of consumption, but i won't relate it to what he have now as multiple horizontallly sprawling cities that are NOT consumption centers, but simply cancer (wait, i just did), and how With the foreclosure crisis, Detroit could be shipping in 70's and 80's crap homes for the reused material to build market rate homes for a fraction of the cost (The federal government just bought up our debt on those properties, didn't it?) and retasking he land for what it should be, farms and nature - parks and rec. In order for that to happen though, one small thing would have to occur and even though provincialism may sound like a negative quality to have, if we were to consider ourselves as part of the Michigan province, and not the Troy or Auburn Hills community, we might start to see people thinking about and understanding our place in the world and voting accordingly. Here, read my little short story on how a 'pack' mentality could help us. http://detroitsustainablecity1 .blogspot.com/2008/08/whos-afr aid-of-big-bad-wolf.html I'm thinking my next blog may be about, while the government is waiting for our mortgage securities to mature enough to sell them at a profit, they should do everything possible to make the land we all now own to be able to retain its value. We have just learned the hardway that what we are building now is not a good investment. cheers | ||
Dtowncitylover Member Username: Dtowncitylover Post Number: 302 Registered: 02-2008 |
Urbanoutdoors, I went to Shrine and never felt such sentiments. Of course we have a bigger black population then 10 years ago which means many of us are friends with Detroiters, but many of friends just never go down to Detroit. I know one of my classmates was white and lives on the west side. They have no reason to. I think your anti-suburb sentiment is a little irrational. I am a proud suburbanite, proud of my city of Royal Oak, but I would really love to live in the city! I do feel an anti-suburban sentiment on this website and very sick of it. Many times when people say "Detroit" they also refer to the suburbs, do to the fact that 2/3 of the Big Three are HQed in the suburbs. The suburbs are a great place to live. Do not think that the suburbanites of other major cities perhaps also have a negative view of their large city? I am sure of it. |
