 
1kielsondrive
Member
Username: 1kielsondrive
Post Number: 207
Registered: 08-2008
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 24, 2008 - 1:57 am: |    |
(Oh no, I brought up the race card!). How silly of me. Aren't we all aware we're now living in a post race America? After all, a black man has been nominated to run for president. See how nice we've been to black (@#*+*) people. My bad. Everything is better now.
(Message edited by 1KielsonDrive on September 24, 2008) |
Newlaster
Member
Username: Newlaster
Post Number: 259
Registered: 06-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 24, 2008 - 1:57 am: | |
An unjust law is no law at all! |
Zrx_doug
Member
Username: Zrx_doug
Post Number: 725
Registered: 03-2008
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 24, 2008 - 3:29 am: | |
1Kielson..you really ought to do a search and read the whole story. Your "innocent man" was (finally) stopped after fleeing a routine traffic stop. The officer who pulled him over was a female, and your "innocent man" was successfully resisting arrest, since he out-weighed her by about two times.
If you want my opinion, I'd say that the "innocent man" is damned lucky that two cars showed to back the female officer up, or she'd have had little recourse but to shoot if he'd continued to manhandle her.
It's not about race, it's about doing what the person with the badge damned well tells you, regardless of race.
Gannon, I know plenty about adrenaline. Primarily, I know that I don't let it own me, or it will kill me.
I've known a few riders who were adrenaline's bitch..you'll note that I chose the past tense.
The cop game is no different..your average on-duty cop knows more about reining in emotions than you or I could imagine.
At any rate, as I said, the medical records won't lie..there's no mistaking a beat-down for anything else..
But until this makes it to court, I'll take the words of the five (or six?) folks in blue who were actually THERE over those of an attorney who wasn't..and who stands to make, what..a third of twenty million? |
Gannon
Member
Username: Gannon
Post Number: 14120
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 24, 2008 - 7:57 am: | |
I appreciate that...but we're bumping into some curious stuff here.
Single female cruiser with no male in the car...then HOW many cars without any sort of dash cam available? Why would they even let a single officer run in a vehicle without ANY form of second witness?!
In Allen Park and Dearborn? Right! I'm again calling bullshit on the lack of dashcam evidence.
Listen, I was pulled over one early morning by an Allen Park cop, after I flashed my lights at him because a Free Press delivery truck driver had been harassing and aggressively tailgating me.
It took a L-O-N-G while for him to calm down after following me into my father's driveway...and he was EXTRAORDINARILY rude and offensive to him when he came out of the house to see what was happening on HIS land. It could've gone really wrong at any time, if not for my extreme patience and verbal skills he was poised to manhandle ME!
I simply kept repeating the question of why I would bring attention to MYSELF if I had been doing any wrong! For a full fifteen minutes I didn't know which way the situation would go...when it turned my way, the guy started joking that it USED to be that everyone he encountered between three and six in the morning was out for trouble...and we talked of the changes in society now that we've got 24-hour tv and stores and all that modern stuff. He admitted his bias against any civilians who dared be out driving at four in the morning...in so many words!
Nah, this paradigm of skimming off traffic law disobeyers for extra income is going to run into MORE people with medical and emotional difficulties who DON'T have communication skills or any ability to control themselves.
You are talking as IF this fellow was in his right mind...when YOU had the story about your friend and his medical emergency while riding.
It is really complicated...but the whole picture is the natural and normal result of the trend in the population...coupled with increased stress in our front-line officers...and their training of ESCALATING force until submission and ganging up on any- and every-one who for whatever reason does not obey their every command.
It will ONLY get worse as more of our officers return from their part-time warrior duties overseas...once they taste killing on a mass scale and have their senses deadened to humanity...I don't want to imagine how fucked up it will get.
(which is why I am alarmed at the new changes in law to allow the Army to be called in for civil unrest, they say one group of National Guardsmen were responsible for much of the heavy destruction during the '67 riots...after the fires set by the insurrectionists, obviously) |
Hpgrmln
Member
Username: Hpgrmln
Post Number: 590
Registered: 06-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 24, 2008 - 9:05 am: | |
As a diabetic, I find it hard to believe that he could try to run off if his sugar was THAT low. Usually one in that situation is almost too weak to even pull themselves out of the car.Theyre on the verge of passing out. |
Gnome
Member
Username: Gnome
Post Number: 1907
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 24, 2008 - 9:48 am: | |
http://www.kptv.com/news/11226 636/detail.html
story about a lady who was having a violent diabetic seizure and had to be tazed.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2 007/06/20/diabteic_tasering/
another story about a texas man who was tazed.
http://www.diabetesresponse.co m/diabeticseizures.html |
_sj_
Member
Username: _sj_
Post Number: 2584
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 24, 2008 - 9:52 am: | |
quote:Single female cruiser with no male in the car.
Nothing like adding a little sexism to the party. |
Warriorfan
Member
Username: Warriorfan
Post Number: 1006
Registered: 08-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 24, 2008 - 9:53 am: | |
quote: This gave me a horrible flashback to Malice Green (may he rest in peace).
Malice Green was high on crack and resisting arrest. The coroner found NO skull fractures or swelling of the brain, so the blows to head couldn't have killed him. What did kill him was the damage done to his heart by years of cocaine abuse, which when combined with the adrenaline rush created by his struggle with the police caused him to go into cardiac arrest.
Malice Green killed himself. He died because he was a worthless piece of shit crackhead who abused his own body to the point where a struggle became fatal to his heart.
But then again, in the CoD, criminals like Proof and Malice Green are treated like heroes and the police are the ones who are viewed as the bad guys. I've never seen so much criminal-worship in one city, it's really no surprise why the Mayor's Office, City Council and School Board are thus filled with criminals in a city that idolizes criminals. |
Plymouthres
Member
Username: Plymouthres
Post Number: 914
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 24, 2008 - 9:57 am: | |
Gannon-
Your penchant for constant paranoia regarding police state tactics against those that are clearly breaking the law is becoming a bit much, even for me.
Is it at all possible, in your mind, that those that are returning from their "part-time warrior duties overseas", as you call them, will be MORE acutely aware of their actions and take the appropriate steps that their experience there has taught them rather than escalate those experiences into some neo-nazi state that you have conceived out of your own paranoia?
Generally, the people that I have known that have experienced "killing on a mass scale" are overtly sensitive to NOT perpetuating those acts as opposed to those who haven't been there.
This guy was fleeing and eluding,a high court misdemeanor, almost a felony, CLEARLY BREAKING THE LAW, and then, when the cops step in, it is somehow their fault for over reacting? When are they just reacting to people breaking the law and doing their jobs, in your mind? You clearly admit to it being "really complicated" but, not having been there for the particular incident, you go about second guessing and supposing things only one who was there would know, perpetuating that paranoia onto others.
It doesn't make sense to operate so far beyond logic.
Not everything needs to be on a dashcam to pass the smell test that you seem to think has to happen for every single incident that occurs. These cops have enough of a hard time without always being second-guessed by someone after the fact, and you know better than that.
Lastly, since you lived in Dearborn all of your early life, when was the last time that you remember seeing more than one cop in a car in either Dearborn or AP, LP, Melvindale or any of the other downriver cities? Only during training, as I recall. Other than that, those cities seem to do just fine with one cop-one car, including lone females.
These cops were doing their jobs, period. When the original cop called in the incident, she was backed by the others, just like cops always do, especially in those jurisdictions. To blow it out of proportion without having been there simply is wrong and not very prudent.
The truth will come out in the end, and if they were wrong, we will see it and hear of it. Then we will judge the incident in its entirety, not by supposition and conjecture of a strung together theory. |
Mauser765
Member
Username: Mauser765
Post Number: 3251
Registered: 01-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 24, 2008 - 9:59 am: | |
tazers are torture devices.
police are not educated enough to handle such devices.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v =BPYW82-Blik&NR=1
Every single contact between law enforcement and civilian citizens should be monitored INDEPENDENTLY to ensure that all civil and HUMAN rights are respected. And I am not talking about dash cam bullshit that the police keep internal. That is to cover asses, not protect rights. |
Downtown_lady
Member
Username: Downtown_lady
Post Number: 275
Registered: 08-2008
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 24, 2008 - 10:22 am: | |
quote:He died because he was a worthless piece of shit crackhead who abused his own body to the point where a struggle became fatal to his heart.
But then again, in the CoD, criminals like Proof and Malice Green are treated like heroes
WOW.
I love when people reveal their true colors, because then you know exactly what you're dealing with. To call anyone "a worthless piece of shit crackhead" (even if factually they were indeed a crackhead) is truly a disgusting display of moral superiority.
In terms of your suggestion that hero worship of criminals exists in the city, I cannot speak for anyone but myself. By no means do I view Malice Green as a hero. But he is a child of God, whose life ended tragically after his encounter with the police. |
Danny
Member
Username: Danny
Post Number: 7776
Registered: 02-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 24, 2008 - 10:46 am: | |
Don't punish me with brutality. |
Detblue
Member
Username: Detblue
Post Number: 64
Registered: 04-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 24, 2008 - 11:14 am: | |
Warriorfan, shame on you...
we all fall short of Gods grace and glory. |
Zrx_doug
Member
Username: Zrx_doug
Post Number: 726
Registered: 03-2008
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 24, 2008 - 11:30 am: | |
Tasers are most assuredly NOT "torture devices," and cops receive very intensive training before being issued one..in my own experience (lotsa cop friends) it's even a requirement that the officer be on the receiving end of a shot from the taser so he understands exactly what he's dealing with.
I've been tazed myself (like I said, lotta cop friends)..it hurts, and it puts you down on the ground RIGHT NOW, but there's no lasting damage to speak of..had pepper spray in the eyes as well..FWIW, the civilian stuff ain't worth crap w/o a direct hit, the cop stuff made me cry uncle when it just came near my face.
Tasers, pepper spray, night sticks..they all friggin' HURT. But properly used, all are non-lethal means of controlling someone who won't/can't control themselves..and they all beat the living hell out of a well-placed .40 caliber slug.
It would be really sweet if cops had the option of being warm & cuddly with every single person they have to deal with in the line of duty, but the reality of the situation is that such behavior results in dead cops.
Downtown Lady..I don't particularly believe in "God." Malice Green was a child of Mr. & Mrs Green in my book.
The way I see it, Malice Green was a man who voluntarily impaired his own thinking and then proceeded to commit suicide by cop.
Yes, it's a shame that he ended up dead..but if he'd just incoherently staggered in front of a semi instead, would you be crying "truck brutality?" |
Alley
Member
Username: Alley
Post Number: 662
Registered: 02-2008
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 24, 2008 - 11:47 am: | |
Magnum Vs. Taser
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v =eAKbplNGhDo |
Downtown_lady
Member
Username: Downtown_lady
Post Number: 276
Registered: 08-2008
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 24, 2008 - 11:50 am: | |
As I'm sure we both agree Doug, everyone is entitled to their individual beliefs. I do believe in God (name not in quotation marks). But to use the word suicide to describe Malice Green's death conveniently removes any guilt from the officers involved and places all the blame in Malice Green's hands. After a lengthy trial, lots of testimony and review of the medical examiner's findings, the cops were found guilty. We can retry the case here, but why when it's already been tried?
I understand what you're trying to say with the comparison to the semi truck, but I don't feel it is an apt comparison. One set of circumstances involves a vehicular accident over which the semi driver may have had no control, and one set of circumstances involves a man's death after the conscious choices of others. |
Mauser765
Member
Username: Mauser765
Post Number: 3256
Registered: 01-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 24, 2008 - 12:12 pm: | |
"Tasers are most assuredly NOT "torture devices,"
bullshit. They assuredly are NOT devices that are required to enforce laws. If you need help, use the radio. If you are being challenged with lethal force, shoot the person.
Read a few books about these devices and the philosophies behind using them on our own citizens:
http://www.naomiklein.org/shoc k-doctrine |
Servite76
Member
Username: Servite76
Post Number: 80
Registered: 02-2008
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 24, 2008 - 12:16 pm: | |
Downtown_lady,
Your last 2 posts were very lucid and well thought out, but I have to totally disagree with your original post. I feel you made an assumption without regards to knowledge or facts in this very tragic case. It appears you entered this discussion with bias or some sort preconceived notion that police thrive beating people. I know for a fact that one of the officers involved is one of the most compassionate and caring people I know. This has nothing to do with race. He is a decorated vet of Afganistan and Irag. It doesn't matter what anybody here thinks of the war, that's not the issue. He believes in his country and believes he was fighting for our freedom and liberties. Pray for this man and hope he recovers and please don't be so quick to judge. This officer is also a "child of God". |
Detblue
Member
Username: Detblue
Post Number: 65
Registered: 04-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 24, 2008 - 12:55 pm: | |
Servite76's
Pleas allow me to retort regarding Downtown_lady's point (going back to my original post), We ALL fall short of Gods's grace and glory... “Crack heads” and “Officers” included.
I’m not exactly sure if judging was ever a factor, simply observing how bias warriorfan's post was. |
Detblue
Member
Username: Detblue
Post Number: 66
Registered: 04-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 24, 2008 - 12:58 pm: | |
-Downtown_lady,
please correct me if I'm wrong... |
Macknwarren
Member
Username: Macknwarren
Post Number: 63
Registered: 10-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 24, 2008 - 1:16 pm: | |
Warriorfan: Regarding Malice Green's cause of death, didn't asst. medical examiner Kalil Jiraki testify at trial that repeated blows to the head killed Green?
Yes, he had coke and alcohol in his system, but 14 blows to the head is what ended his life. |
_sj_
Member
Username: _sj_
Post Number: 2588
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 24, 2008 - 1:21 pm: | |
It has always been a point of controversy.
for example, each side making a different case.
quote:In the original 1993 Nevers and Budzyn trial, five Doctors testified as to the cause of Malice Green’s death. Oakland County Medical Examiner L. Dragovic, Philadelphia Medical Examiner Haresh Mirchandani, and Lucy Rorke, a neuropathologist from Philadelphia’s Children’s Hospital with outstanding credentials, all testified that Green’s head injuries were all "superficial" and "could not have caused his death." They all agreed that Green had no fractures, no significant bleeding or bruising of the brain, and no swelling of the brain. They all testified that Malice Green died as a result of his consumption of cocaine and alcohol, combined with his physical struggle with police as he resisted arrest, and the minor head injuries. These things, in combination, caused a surge of adrenaline which overloaded the electrical circuits in Green’s brain resulting in brain seizure, respiratory failure, cardiac arrest and death. |
Detroitnerd
Member
Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 3300
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 24, 2008 - 1:24 pm: | |
Oh, yeah, he also ate some twinkies before the beating. And the cops did too. So it couldn't have been the savage beating, right? It was the glucose.
Except in the case of the blue-suited heroes, the glucose overran their "restraint" receptors, and they couldn't help giving Malice a vigorous beating. And that's why these knights of law enforcement are the real victims in this case. |
Downtown_lady
Member
Username: Downtown_lady
Post Number: 277
Registered: 08-2008
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 24, 2008 - 1:51 pm: | |
Hi Servite -- I don't believe that police thrive on beating people, but I do know that it happens. I appreciate seeing the point of view of the other side. It is not my intention to be quick to judge, and your point is well taken. That said, I just have a hard time understanding why six officers were unable to restrain one person without substantial head injuries resulting.
Detblue, I really appreciate your thoughts and I agree completely. Your comments are thought-provoking related to this discussion and to life in general. |
Zrx_doug
Member
Username: Zrx_doug
Post Number: 727
Registered: 03-2008
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 24, 2008 - 1:54 pm: | |
Mauser, don't you find it a bit ironic that you're okay with a cop carrying a gun and shooting someone, but you're so deeply concerned about an incapacitating but non-fatal taser?
Have you ever been tazed? Have you ever seen one in use or viewed a training session, or is your knowledge of the device limited to propaganda of the sort you linked to? |
Downtown_lady
Member
Username: Downtown_lady
Post Number: 278
Registered: 08-2008
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 24, 2008 - 1:57 pm: | |
Naomi Klein = propaganda? Naomi Klein speaks the truth. |
Detroitnerd
Member
Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 3304
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 24, 2008 - 1:58 pm: | |
They're considering banning them in Canada unless the RCMP stop using them in nonemergency situations. Once again, our neighbors to the north are ahead of us. |
Downriviera
Member
Username: Downriviera
Post Number: 995
Registered: 02-2008
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 24, 2008 - 3:22 pm: | |
Time for this again.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v =uj0mtxXEGE8 |
Dougw
Member
Username: Dougw
Post Number: 2172
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 24, 2008 - 4:51 pm: | |
quote:Every single contact between law enforcement and civilian citizens should be monitored INDEPENDENTLY to ensure that all civil and HUMAN rights are respected. And I am not talking about dash cam bullshit that the police keep internal.
The only feasible way to do that is with dash cams. If you are saying that dash cam video should always be made available to all parties involved in a police incident, and not kept internal, then I agree with you. |
Zrx_doug
Member
Username: Zrx_doug
Post Number: 728
Registered: 03-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, September 25, 2008 - 1:22 am: | |
"The only feasible way to do that is with dash cams.."
Well, yeah..assuming the criminal is kind enough to stay within the field of view and range of the mic..given your assertion, all a crook would need to do is take a few steps to the side to automatically become a victim of abuse due to lack of video evidence proving otherwise..
FWIW, I don't see how a dash cam would have made a whole helluva lot of difference in this case.
The cameras are stationary-mounted facing the front of the squad car..the action in this case took place on the embankment of the Southfield freeway, presumably to the right of the cam's field of view..with afternoon traffic noise, it seems unlikely that the audio portion of a dashcam tape would have been worth much either.
Let's assume for a second that there WAS at least one camera operating, and that it captured nothing but the rear-view of the perp's empty car and a lot of traffic noise..would the folks who are crying "foul" over the lack of video evidence change their tunes? I'm guessing not..they'd likely find another piece of non-evidence to hang their skewed outlooks upon. |
Mauser765
Member
Username: Mauser765
Post Number: 3261
Registered: 01-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, September 25, 2008 - 7:26 am: | |
The newest psycho-cop incident with this torture device was reported this morning on the national news. A mentally ill man was naked and out on a fire escape holding a fluorescent lightbulb. His mother called police for help. For help.
The responding officer murdered the mentally ill man with his taser. While the mans mother can be heard on cell phone video begging the police not to kill her son, the idiot tazed the mentally ill man until he fell to his death.
Who was the man threatening that he needed to be tortured via electrocution ? The torture is delivered as a direct result of non compliance with the officers demands - regardless of whether the victim is ABLE to comply.
If the officer was armed only with a gun, he probably would not have considered that appropriate. Before tasers however, the police baton was the weapon of choice - but those leave marks. |
Gannon
Member
Username: Gannon
Post Number: 14185
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 25, 2008 - 10:18 am: | |
I'm with you on this one, Mauser.
Just wait until they get those EM beam weapons in the field, and people don't comply...and they turn UP the juice. |
_sj_
Member
Username: _sj_
Post Number: 2592
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 25, 2008 - 10:27 am: | |
First that is not murder, and her son was so out of control she needed help. What kind of help did she expect when she called the cops.
He was a danger to himself and to anyone that could come in contact with him.
You remind of the people who cut off ambulances and fire trucks and then bitch when they don't get their fast enough.
(Message edited by _sj_ on September 25, 2008) |
Plymouthres
Member
Username: Plymouthres
Post Number: 916
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, September 25, 2008 - 10:40 am: | |
Gannon/Mauser-
I guess that I would be interested in hearing all of your "revolutionary" ideas on what you would do to solve the problems of cops using "excessive force" and how you would insure the safety of the public. |
Southwestmap
Member
Username: Southwestmap
Post Number: 1098
Registered: 01-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, September 25, 2008 - 10:51 am: | |
I wonder what the Mother thought the cops would do - maybe attempt to wrestle him off the fire escape and fall over with him?
A cop can only do so much. Call an ambulance if the issue is medical. call your brother or nephew if the guy is too big for you to get him in the house. Don't call a cop and hope for compassion. They have a different mission and different tools. |
Plymouthres
Member
Username: Plymouthres
Post Number: 918
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, September 25, 2008 - 10:57 am: | |
EM Beam Weapons-seriously? That is really a stretch, Gannon. |
Gannon
Member
Username: Gannon
Post Number: 14190
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 25, 2008 - 11:27 am: | |
I thought you were in the know. Funny how your posture has changed here... |
Plymouthres
Member
Username: Plymouthres
Post Number: 920
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, September 25, 2008 - 12:13 pm: | |
My posture in regard to the issues of government surveillance into our lives has NEVER changed here or in personal discussions we have had at all. Maybe you haven't been listening very well.
Perhaps EM development, from a military standpoint, is a reality but for use on civilians? That is a stretch, in my opinion, and not something I would assert as surely as you do.
People like you and I are not even on the map of the agencies that are responsible for the safety or security of the citizens of this country, and to think so is a bit self aggrandizing, again, in my opinion. It doesn't make sense, either, as the beauty of this country is to have and behold certain ideals and to be able to espouse them without fear of retribution.
I guess that we differ in how much we believe "they" are watching us, something I have repeatedly said both here and in person to you during our conversations. Don't make more out of this issue than that, as it is not as complicated a topic as you may think it is.
This thread is and was about AP cops beating a man for supposedly being intoxicated, not a government conspiracy thread. Perhaps sticking to that topic and not expanding it to something else would serve this topic better. |
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