 
Ltorivia485
Member
Username: Ltorivia485
Post Number: 3093
Registered: 08-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, October 05, 2008 - 11:29 pm: |    |
Okay, we all know that 8 Mile Road is the "racial" divide in this city. Detroit proper is mostly black and most communities north of 8 Mile Road are predominately white.
Has 10 Mile Road become the new socioeconomic divide? If you tell anyone you live between 8 Mile and 10 Mile (think Eastpointe, Warren, Hazel Park, Ferndale, etc.), they think you're working-class or it's a deteriorating neighborhood. No one would recommend this areas to visitors or new residents. What do you think? |
Youngprofessionaldetroiter
Member
Username: Youngprofessionaldetroiter
Post Number: 433
Registered: 07-2008
| | Posted on Sunday, October 05, 2008 - 11:41 pm: | |
quote:they think you're working-class or it's a deteriorating neighborhood
Interesting that those two words are linked. There was once a time where the working-class didn't necessarily mean deteriorating. And I think that's part of the problem.
Ferndale has its own vibe. Lots of yuppies that didn't want to spend quite so much to live in Royal Oak. Plus, posh Pleasant Ridge is right there, as well.
Can't say for the rest, cuz I don't spend much time in any of the others. |
Vetalalumni
Member
Username: Vetalalumni
Post Number: 1170
Registered: 05-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, October 05, 2008 - 11:44 pm: | |
Maybe so. Know of a large family that moved from 9 mile 80s/early 90s, to 10 mile late 90s, to 11 mile earlier this decade, and finally 13 mile last year. Each move was positive and profitable. |
Mwilbert
Member
Username: Mwilbert
Post Number: 410
Registered: 11-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, October 05, 2008 - 11:47 pm: | |
I disagree. I might recommend the area between 8 and 10 Mile to visitors or new residents. Depends on what they are looking for. Of course I might also recommend areas below 8 Mile too, if that were appropriate. It really depends on the person.
Anyone intrepid enough to move into the Detroit area right now can probably handle the dangers of Ferndale or Pleasant Ridge. |
Texorama
Member
Username: Texorama
Post Number: 292
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, October 05, 2008 - 11:48 pm: | |
In Paul Clemens' book "Made in Detroit: A South of 8 Mile Memoir," he recalls the belief of the whites he grew up with that they would move up the mile roads at the rate of one per decade, i.e., they would move north of 6 Mile in the 1960s, 7 Mile in the 1970s, etc. It doesn't hold for Ferndale, but for some communities (like Warren) 10 Mile, now that it's the 00s, is the current dividing line. |
Cmubryan
Member
Username: Cmubryan
Post Number: 620
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, October 05, 2008 - 11:53 pm: | |
Southfield is really no different on one side of 10 mile versus the other. Oak Park is completely different but that is due to school districts (Berkley north of 10 and Oak Park south of 10). Hazel Park vs. Madison Heights? Really not sure. I know Farmington Hills really doesn't "count" because it's not directly north of the city however I don't think there is a huge divide there with 10 mile, same with Novi. |
Ltorivia485
Member
Username: Ltorivia485
Post Number: 3096
Registered: 08-2004
| | Posted on Monday, October 06, 2008 - 12:00 am: | |
For this thread, newer or less developed suburbs like Novi and Northville don't count because they don't border Detroit and are located west of Interstate 275 (really outer fringes).
(Message edited by LTOrivia485 on October 06, 2008) |
Cmubryan
Member
Username: Cmubryan
Post Number: 621
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 06, 2008 - 12:09 am: | |
Yes I realized that hence why I said "don't count" in my above post. I was simply mentioning Novi because it came to mind as a city that has 10 mile running though it. |
Jjaba
Member
Username: Jjaba
Post Number: 7416
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 06, 2008 - 12:58 am: | |
jjaba recently drove West from Grosse Pointe on 8Mile Rd. to Ferndale. He noticed there were plenty of Black people walking on the North side of 8 Mile Rd., waiting for buses, and shopping. Unless they sre simply leaving jobs for home, it appeared that the divide is no longer 8 Mile Rd.
jjaba |
Digitalvision
Member
Username: Digitalvision
Post Number: 1350
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 06, 2008 - 1:01 am: | |
696 is quickly becoming the new 8 mile east of John R.; and from there on it's 9/10 mile until you bump against Ferndale which is holding together.
I don't think it's everyone Ltvoria; you run into the bias I constantly do. Detroit is X; Ferndale is Y; mainly because you have a culture in our area that has little contact with one another. When I take people in the city to some neighborhoods, they can't believe it's there. They have location-based ignorance.
When someone labels any city or area in a blanket manner, be suspicious as they probably don't know that much about it except what their friends tell them.
I get the parties where people talk about how Big Beaver is passe and the new hot place is Rochester.
Whatever. They can waste their money and good luck selling their homes. I dislike locust-people (and not all suburbanites are locust people, but these folks are). |
Cmubryan
Member
Username: Cmubryan
Post Number: 622
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 06, 2008 - 1:04 am: | |
It is and it isn't a divide. I believe it isn't a divide any more in the sense that Detroiters for the most part feel very comfortable travelling north of 8 mile to take care of business, etc. However I believe to many suburbanites, many of them white, it still is a divide to them and they don't feel comfortable crossing 8 mile (unless it is on the expressway to go downtown or a non-Detroit destination). |
Mikeg
Member
Username: Mikeg
Post Number: 1910
Registered: 12-2005
| | Posted on Monday, October 06, 2008 - 1:15 am: | |
Admittedly dated, this 2000 US Census data has been transposed into a visual map showing differences by census tract, which is then overlaid on a Google map of the region. Darker reds indicate more, older or higher percentages.
Percent owner-occupied homes:
Percent single mothers with children:
Median age:
For reference, percent black:
|
Digitalvision
Member
Username: Digitalvision
Post Number: 1351
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 06, 2008 - 1:40 am: | |
I can't wait for the 2010 data plot, Mikeg. I can guarantee you anything light red is solid red; and a lot more light red areas will have popped up.
I think that has a lot to do with perception of a "declining" area, too. |
Sean_of_detroit
Member
Username: Sean_of_detroit
Post Number: 1934
Registered: 03-2008
| | Posted on Monday, October 06, 2008 - 7:25 am: | |
~Now playing at the Ford-Wyoming Drive-In~
From Metro Detroit they came!
LOCUST PEOPLE!
Terrorising the Michigan country sides...
"Ahh!"
"They are consuming everything in sight."
"OH NO!"
"They infect our children with indifference and consumerism."
LOCUST PEOPLE!
You might be next!
~Now Playing at the Ford-Wyoming Drive-In~
Double feature with 8 Mile II: 10 Mile. Every moment is another chance to escape the working class.
~TONIGHT ONLY, buy a Locust People popcorn bucket, and receive unlimited refills for just one thin dime. That's right, now YOU can consume just like the Locust People!~ |
Sean_of_detroit
Member
Username: Sean_of_detroit
Post Number: 1935
Registered: 03-2008
| | Posted on Monday, October 06, 2008 - 7:35 am: | |
No offence meant to you DV. It's just all these movies being filmed around here... it's starting to get to me, I think. |
Danny
Member
Username: Danny
Post Number: 7805
Registered: 02-2004
| | Posted on Monday, October 06, 2008 - 8:19 am: | |
Mikeg and everyone,
I have been noticed by the red factual data map of Detroit and its suburbs. If you all see the Southfield, Oak Park, R.O.T. and Lathrup Village. Those are the areas that the black community has spread. Thanks the 25 year exodus of organized Jewish communities. Mostly in the past 90 years from Paradise Valley to West Bloomfield TWP. They have been selling their homes to blacks as a their gratitude and a their tactic to combat restrictive covenants.
Eight Mile Rd. is still considered to be the " Demarcation Line" from Eastpointe to Ferndale. However the borders of Wyoming Rd, 13 Mile Rd. and Inkster Rd. from 8 Mile Rd. to 13 Mile Rd. is the new version of the demarcation line.
By 2020 the black community will surpass 8 Mile Rd. in most Macomb County cities of Warren, Eastpointe up to 11 Mile Rd. and I-696. Anything over the new demarcation line will be mostly white. |
Ct4438
Member
Username: Ct4438
Post Number: 64
Registered: 08-2005
| | Posted on Monday, October 06, 2008 - 11:24 am: | |
Between 9 & 8 mile, neighborhoods along Harper in SCS reflect this idea. More and more neighborhoods have foreclosed homes and rental properties are rivaling the number of owner-occupied homes. But go down sidestreets off Harper and north of 10 and you see a difference. |
Rjlj
Member
Username: Rjlj
Post Number: 697
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 06, 2008 - 11:38 am: | |
Ferndale is far from deteriorating. There is nothing wrong with working-class.
Why must everything be divided and classified? Does that make you feel most comfortable? |
Professorscott
Member
Username: Professorscott
Post Number: 1650
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Monday, October 06, 2008 - 11:57 am: | |
Let's split into two groups: those who want to divide and classify us in order to feel comfortable, and those who don't. |
Ndavies
Member
Username: Ndavies
Post Number: 3072
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 06, 2008 - 12:51 pm: | |
The entire region is tied to the life expectancy of a wood framed house. That is about 100 years in the Detroit region.
The first 3 owners live in the house doing minor cosmetic upgrades. This is the heyday of this neighborhood.
When the third owner sells the house, it is becoming functionally obsolete. Electrical and plumbing are becoming seriously outdated. It desperately needs a new kitchen and bathrooms. It will either need a thorough rehab or it becomes rental. The houses in the neighborhood begin to decline in value. This is the point a neighborhood starts to decay.
If the neighborhood has some feature that makes it worth rehabbing, the neighborhood will survive. If there isn't a good reason the houses will sink into rental and eventually into demolition.
It is still cheaper to build new on the edge of sprawl than it is to rehab in the older neighborhoods. As long as this continues there is no hope for the inner ring suburbs.
There has to be some barrier to prevent cities from sprawling. We have eliminated all of the barriers preventing sprawl in the region.
quote:Why must everything be divided and classified? Does that make you feel most comfortable?
It is built into human nature. It is a matter of survival. Human's divide and classify everything we encounter.
You can't make decisions without the ability to divide and classify. How can you distinguish between healthy food and a rotten piece of meat, if you don't divide and classify it? How do you decide something's a threat, if you can't divide and classify? |
Lilpup
Member
Username: Lilpup
Post Number: 5314
Registered: 06-2004
| | Posted on Monday, October 06, 2008 - 1:39 pm: | |
The idea that I-696 would become the 'new 8 Mile' was a major force behind the opposition to building it. |
_sj_
Member
Username: _sj_
Post Number: 2637
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 06, 2008 - 1:49 pm: | |
Depending on how long this current mess lasts, all these pre-conceived lines may be changing. |
Johnlodge
Member
Username: Johnlodge
Post Number: 8798
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 06, 2008 - 1:58 pm: | |
That's a good post Ndavies. What are the incentives to renovate vs. build new? You have to love your house and community enough to not want to leave. Also, it helps to be handy enough to do a lot of the work yourself, to make it cost effective. I think a lot of that is fading each generation. I take a lot of joy and pride in renovating my house. Both because I get to do it in a way that is my own particular style, and because I know I'm making that house relevant for more years to come. Meanwhile friends my age need my help to change a doorknob. |
Professorscott
Member
Username: Professorscott
Post Number: 1651
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Monday, October 06, 2008 - 2:17 pm: | |
In southeast Michigan it was primarily through the efforts of MDOT and the Detroit Water & Sewer Department that it became possible to build exurbs all the way out through Twentywhatever Mile Road.
If those two organizations had acted differently from the end of World War II through the 1970s, it simply would not have been possible to house 80% of the region's population outside the City of Detroit, and things would look mighty different today. |
Sean_of_detroit
Member
Username: Sean_of_detroit
Post Number: 1944
Registered: 03-2008
| | Posted on Monday, October 06, 2008 - 2:54 pm: | |
We need a home trade in program?
New was also a preference back then (and now, in some areas). New was in, and old was out... right? |
Patrick
Member
Username: Patrick
Post Number: 5655
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 06, 2008 - 3:11 pm: | |
NDavies pretty much nailed it. I'd like to add that there are several "borders" within the area. For instance, the people of North Warren, shun those who live south of 696. The people in the fringe burbs (25 Mile) thing 16 Mile is the new 8 Mile. |
Ltorivia485
Member
Username: Ltorivia485
Post Number: 3098
Registered: 08-2004
| | Posted on Monday, October 06, 2008 - 4:11 pm: | |
I also noticed that the school rankings and quality of life in suburbs beyond 10 Mile Road is greater than those between 8 Mile and 10 Mile Road.
How many of you here would want to live in neighborhoods in Hazel Park, Eastpointe, South Warren, and South Roseville? |
Mikeg
Member
Username: Mikeg
Post Number: 1911
Registered: 12-2005
| | Posted on Monday, October 06, 2008 - 4:34 pm: | |
How about some data to support what you've noticed? |
Professorscott
Member
Username: Professorscott
Post Number: 1652
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Monday, October 06, 2008 - 4:44 pm: | |
...such as data about "quality of life". I've never seen that particular data. |
Hornwrecker
Member
Username: Hornwrecker
Post Number: 2111
Registered: 04-2005
| | Posted on Monday, October 06, 2008 - 4:56 pm: | |
I'm still wondering about that corridor of single mothers that goes up Van Dyke, on the images that MikeG posted.
(Mike, got anything about German cigar makers for the American Eagle Tobacco thread?) |