 
Mackinaw
Member
Username: Mackinaw
Post Number: 5456
Registered: 02-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, October 26, 2008 - 10:00 am: |    |
Or just move south and work for the foreign automakers. That was MI's unemployment rate would go down.
-----
VW is releasing that new minivan in America, and that is sure to be the death-blow for Chrysler. When that happens, why don't you stop ragging on people and just give another company credit winning out in a competitive market? |
Sstashmoo
Member
Username: Sstashmoo
Post Number: 2765
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, October 26, 2008 - 10:06 am: | |
Quote: "VW is releasing that new minivan in America,"
They already did about 50 years ago. Hopefully they do a better job this time. |
Wykkidx
Member
Username: Wykkidx
Post Number: 64
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, October 26, 2008 - 10:36 am: | |
Quote: "Every dime of profit from purchasing an American Big 3 automobile remains in the U.S. Not one dime of profit from Honda or Toyota stays here."
If someone could please explain this comment for me I would be grateful. Is the comment meaning that because the Big 3 are american that they spend their profits in america ? And if that is the case if someone could show where they have spent their money to benefit americans'. |
Newport1128
Member
Username: Newport1128
Post Number: 220
Registered: 05-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, October 26, 2008 - 10:59 am: | |
Buyamerican, I'm just curious. What make and year vehicle(s) do you and your family drive? |
Buyamerican
Member
Username: Buyamerican
Post Number: 823
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, October 26, 2008 - 11:13 am: | |
Wykkidx....what percentage of "profit" from Honda, Toyota, Suburu, Nissans, etc., stays in the U.S. is a better question. What name is on the RenCen downtown? What huge Chrysler plant is on Conner and Jefferson? What companies made Detroit the "Motor City". I don't want to hear about foreign companies down South paying American workers to work there. When retirement time rolls around, there is no pension. Do the foreign automakers provide health care for their workers? Do they protect their workers from a hostile work environment? Can a worker even afford to purchase the product they build?
Newport1128...Everyone in my family drives one of the American Big 3, 2007's or newer....and, I might add that they are all dependable, comfortable, attractive and affordable cars or trucks.
WHAT YOU DRIVE, DRIVES AMERICA!
OUT OF A JOB YET? KEEP BUYING FOREIGN.
How true^^^ that is proving to be today. |
Sstashmoo
Member
Username: Sstashmoo
Post Number: 2768
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, October 26, 2008 - 11:25 am: | |
BuyAmerican, these guys just don't get it. The Asian car companies are here leeching the American dollar, when it isn't worth anything, and cars become playthings for the rich..again, those Asian car companies will be gone. Along with their legacy liabilities to it's retirees.
Or they may hang around for the cheap labor. They'll be like the Chinese, watching goods go down the line bound for US markets, and dreaming of someday owning one.
We're trading our way of life with a 3rd world country. But you can't only blame the consumer. Politicians and lobbyists are the real culprits here. |
Buyamerican
Member
Username: Buyamerican
Post Number: 825
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, October 26, 2008 - 11:42 am: | |
^^^^You are 100% correct "BuyAmerican, these guys just don't get it"....
It's hopeless and very sad.
"But you can't only blame the consumer. Politicians and lobbyists are the real culprits here."....
Consumers have always had the option to purchase American. A lot more could have been done on their part to remedy this situation and never have it get to the point where it is today. Those who have purchased foreign automobiles have bitten the very hand that feeds them!
Politicians and lobbyists have always been out for THEIR best interest and never made the very people who put them in office and in leadership positions top priority. |
Wazootyman
Member
Username: Wazootyman
Post Number: 397
Registered: 02-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, October 26, 2008 - 12:18 pm: | |
quote:VW is releasing that new minivan in America, and that is sure to be the death-blow for Chrysler.
You can't be serious. Do you know anything about the Routan?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V olkswagen_Routan
It's very much a dressed-up Chrysler. Made at the same plant as the Town & Country, in fact.
quote:Wazooty, did you notice the inherent contradiction in what you said? You propose not buying the least cost good made overseas because doing that, which benefits both the consumer and the worker in the other country, is "charity," but then you suggest that it is right and good to buy the similar or inferior American good because it was made here. Sounds like charity to me.
Fair enough. I should have been clearer - a 'charity to the developing parts of the world'. Hell, maybe charity was the wrong word altogether.
What I don't understand is the motivation behind this argument. There will always be someone willing to work for cheaper. The fact that we're so anxious to utilize them over a middle-class American provides a dim outlook for the future of this country. I'm all for helping other people out, but not at the expense of my neighbor. If I'm going to be charitable, it's for him, not for someone thousands of miles away.
In my opinion, the problem has deep roots in the mentality of the American consumer, who looks for the best bargains at Wal-Mart, and doesn't even care WHY the goods they are purchasing are so cheap. Every time I hear the Wal-Mart slogan "Save Money...Live Better", I cringe. How ironic.
My previous employer was a supplier to GM, and sensitivity to cost comes from the top down - the consumer won't pay more, so GM won't pay more, so the supplier can't pay more. If it costs 3x as much to produce a circuit board domestically, and the end-consumer (and as a consequence, GM) won't pay the premium, what can you do? Send it to Mexico. Wait, too expensive - send it to China. The fact is, any GM car on the market has to compete with an Asian-counterpart, because your average consumer looks strictly at the bottom line. Suppose a car made 100% domestically cost $5,000 more over an identical Asian-counterpart. Sadly, few would pay that premium. It's all about price, few think of the cost to their community and country.
My boss and I wanted to produce our circuit boards domestically, even locally. We really tried, but it just wasn't going to happen. Chinese circuit board manufacturers dump chemical run-off into the river. An identical manufacturer in Romulus has filtering equipment that has to guarantee run-off enters the sewer as clean (if not cleaner) than the Detroit city water that enters the building. All so-called hazardous scrap metals have to be carefully collected and processed - not dumped into a landfill. Environmental regulations, combined with worker compensation (even if minimum wage), makes it impossible to compete with China.
For those who equate buying a domestically-assembled foreign brand as a patriotic purchase, think about this:
quote:GM alone employs more Americans than all foreign automakers combined; 40 percent of GM’s worldwide workforce is in the United States, compared to only 11 percent of Toyota’s.
Chrysler employs about 83 workers for every 2,500 vehicles sold, Ford employs 80 and General Motors 71, according to the Washington-based Level Field Institute. By comparison, Toyota employs 33 American workers for every 2,500 cars sold.
From http://www.forbesautos.com/adv ice/toptens/buy-american-most- patriotic-cars-2008-story.html ?partner=wn_presidents
Foreign makers only built assembly plants here to improve their bottom line. It's just too expensive to ship them overseas. Profits still ultimately travel back to the headquarters, in whatever country they're housed in.
What kind of sovereign nation are we if some day our paychecks are all signed by foreign-owned companies? |
Wykkidx
Member
Username: Wykkidx
Post Number: 65
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, October 26, 2008 - 12:20 pm: | |
Yes the GM tag is on the Ren-Cen, but where is the Big 3 building new production plants? Ford closed down wixom, where are those workers getting money from now? Did Ford give them life time medical ? Did Ford start paying for their retirement from the point of them being let go ?
You point out how horrible the Asian company's are, and I am sorry but they are paying a wage to many men and women so they can put food on their table, pay their bills.
To be point blank and honest, the Big 3's downfall is due to Greed, pure and simple Greed, from the CEOs and Board members, to the UAW and the workers. There is nothing a CEO does that a multimillion dollar bonus is deserved. Same point there is no reason to pay a line worker $28+ a hour for putting a part on.
I have worked in automotive plants and tier1 plants and the only thing the Big 3 cares about it getting its parts on time and at the cheapest price, they don't care where they come from US, Mexico, Asia, it don't matter to them. The only reason they would pick a US supplier is because if they needed the parts quicker they could get them instead of waiting for a overseas shipment or flight.
So don't shop at wal-mart, I am sure your neighbor whom is working there to survive won't mind.
So don't buy a Asian car, I am sure the 12 plants that Honda has in the US employing US people will be ok. And the new Toyota tech center they are building in Ann Arbor, well where are they getting the workers from? |
Lilpup
Member
Username: Lilpup
Post Number: 5484
Registered: 06-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, October 26, 2008 - 12:58 pm: | |
Toyota still imports more than they build here and the Big 3 still employ more in the US than the foreign makers.
Wal-mart is heinous. Anyone working there would be better off working at one of the small businesses Wal-mart displaced. |
Furnitureguy
Member
Username: Furnitureguy
Post Number: 65
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, October 26, 2008 - 3:31 pm: | |
Gosh, One only has to look to Flint to see metro Detroits future if we lose one of the big 3. Many areas in town will be devastated and may never revive, just like flint. |
Mackinaw
Member
Username: Mackinaw
Post Number: 5457
Registered: 02-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, October 26, 2008 - 6:53 pm: | |
Wazooty, thanks for the clarification. I agree with you when you point out what some would call the "unfairness" in trade. In China industry is unregulated largely (e.g. pollution) and that creates a clear cost disparity compared to the US. The question is what can we do about this? We can't make China legislate, and we wouldn't want to roll back our environmental legislation. Tariffs, you say? Well, I'd like to see some studies from economists, but odds are, the American people would be worse off because they'd pay more and have fewer options.
Honestly, I'm kind of impressed that a Japanese companies employees nearly half as many Americans per 2500 cars sold as GM. Honestly I think that helps the other side's point about how global integration brings foreign jobs to America while it also moves American jobs out. And, we should be clear, many "Detroit jobs" are simply down south now. Thank the unions. But most of all thank the unions for setting up all the pension/health care funds. More than disparities in currency and regulations, I think that the high healthcare costs that the Big 3 owe to people who aren't even assets to the company anymore is what saps away all their profits and makes them losing corporations right now. But perhaps I'm misinformed. |
Buyamerican
Member
Username: Buyamerican
Post Number: 828
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, October 26, 2008 - 7:14 pm: | |
^^^^"I think that the high healthcare costs that the Big 3 owe to people who aren't even assets to the company anymore is what saps away all their profits and makes them losing corporations right now."
Are you saying that you don't think employees who have given the best part of their lives to a company are owed anything; things that were negotiated into contracts throughout their working careers? Pensions, healthcare?
Without the unions negotiating pay raises, safer work environments, pensions, health care benefits, not one person in Detroit who works at a job not associated with the auto industry and receives those same type of benefits would have them today. The unions may not have been right all of the time but thank God we had them. The unions fought for people like you and me to have better lives and be able to purchase the products that we made. Does anyone believe that Japan or China gives two $hits about their employees? Hell, China is killing their own babies with poison in milk and they are trying to kill our kids with lead in toys. |
Optima
Member
Username: Optima
Post Number: 54
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, October 26, 2008 - 7:54 pm: | |
We are all seemingly trying to find a singular point of blame for this debacle when it has been in the making for many a decade now. My take on this mess is that everyone plays a part in the blame game but primarily (in no particular order) the government for not enacting "fair trade" by establishing or enforcing tariffs equal to those of our "trading partners," unions for repeatedly "demanding" unrealistic contracts then watching jobs leave the country in droves(nice policy) and finally the Big Three for being so incredibly slow to respond to changing market conditions decade after decade.
How's that?? Did I succeed in pissing everyone off now??
Many books chronicle the turndown and downfall of this industry and government policies and globalization are agendas that have been foreseen for a long time and this is a direct result of those very implementations.
Cm |
Mashugruskie
Member
Username: Mashugruskie
Post Number: 90
Registered: 09-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, October 26, 2008 - 8:22 pm: | |
Michigan is surrounded by water. Why corporations would not want to be here when water-power can run a plant is beyond me.
The only thing American-made at Walmart are the greeters at the door. I don't shop there. I buy US products and hunt for them. We are not rich and my husband will probably be losing his job before the end of the year. I have owned a few Ford cars, one Sunbird, two used Toyota's and the rest have been Chrysler products. The last Toyota I sold to my uncle. It died the day he bought it from me in 1986. Poor guy.
If Chrysler is sold to GM, I'll buy a Ford and never purchase a Chrysler or GM product again. I probably will never be able to afford to buy a new car again, but that's beside the point. Unless you have inside info on Chrysler, you don't know what's going on. If you believe anything that comes out of Daimler's mouth, you're nuts (Dieter: "I want it big, BIG! Build it BIG!" ....German penis envy...) Also, those 250 employees the Free Press reported as laid off a few weeks ago was so off. Try over 700.
And don't forget that Walter Reuther and brothers Emil and Ernest Mazey were socialists. |
Jams
Member
Username: Jams
Post Number: 9540
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, October 26, 2008 - 10:06 pm: | |
So Buyamerican,
No response to the BIG 3 buying offshore, killing the American steel industry, as well as making demands upon their suppliers to relocate to foreign climes to cut costs in order for us to BUY AMERICAN?
You continue to make your bumpersticker claims, while I watch vacant homes due to the BIG 3 buying foreign to save a few bucks. |
Buyamerican
Member
Username: Buyamerican
Post Number: 829
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, October 26, 2008 - 10:15 pm: | |
^^^^Hopeless.
WHAT YOU DRIVE, DRIVES AMERICA!
OUT OF A JOB YET? KEEP BUYING FOREIGN. |
Ltdave
Member
Username: Ltdave
Post Number: 289
Registered: 09-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, October 26, 2008 - 11:08 pm: | |
""It's very much a dressed-up Chrysler. Made at the same plant as the Town & Country, in fact""
at my Chrysler plant we built some of the dies for it. that was one of Dieter's plans. "Hey i know what we can do, lets build dies for our COMPETITION."
my dad's first car was a 1949 Ford he bought in 1954. followed by a '54 in '56, a '62 Chevy in '62, another Ford in '67, again in '73, he got my Grandfathers '76 Pontiac in '79, a Mercury in '85, a Ford in '89, a Chrysler in '93, a Saturn in '95, Dodge in '07...
other than some minor issues hes not had much trouble in the 64 years hes been driving...
ive never owned any car or truck not built in America by Americans working for an American company other than my wifes Intrepid and 300M (Brampton Ont) and none of us shop at Wal-mart, we buy produce at Kroger or the local market and i try to only buy Carhartt jeans. the rest of our consumerism is hit or miss. we get what we need and we will pay a bit more if its not imported. Whirlpool appliances instead of LG or Bosch or Samsung. yes we have old TVs. probably not built in America but ive not seen any Curtis Mathis stores around in 25 years...
as far as the unions go. a journeyman of mine when i was an apprentice worked for GM at one time. his bosses used to make everyone put their lunch buckets on the table in the shop. the bosses would then go thru them buffet style taking whatever they wanted for lunch and leaving not much of anything substantial for the workers. do you remember reading about the children in the garment/fabric industries on the east coast during the early part of the last century? who do you think was behind the child labor laws? the benevolent companies that had the children in the plant in the first place? the unions fought to get laws in place to prevent that. when the companies got workers that worked and did a good job and they wanted to keep them, they paid them and paid them well. they offered benefits and made it worth the employees while to stay. is it the MLBPA that FORCED Illitch to pay $138 million in salaries last year for the crappy performance? or do you think maybe he wanted to pay that for what he thought was good 'workers'...
the companies down south pay what they do, to KEEP THE WORKERS that are there. since they arent union is it because they just love being so magnanimous or is it because the unions up here helped establish the industry standard? does what they make impact what others downstream of them make? does everyone benefit? yeah pretty much...
there are many sides to this issue and im afraid ragging on any one of those sides (presented here) will help much other than to realize that charity DOES start at home and unfortunately things are going DOWN to the lowest common denominator... |
Eastsidedame
Member
Username: Eastsidedame
Post Number: 611
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Monday, October 27, 2008 - 8:42 pm: | |
1. You can't spend money you don't have. No matter how much you love your country. And I love mine a lot.
2. Do Not Kid Yourself: if you buy a product whose main HQ is not in America, you are sending your $ to the big cheese in Japan, Germany or wherever. You're helping their GNP, not ours.
3. If you are in a union, it is very difficult to get fired, even if you are at fault. That's one reason management hates them so much. Crappy employees you can't dump costs companies hundreds of thousands of dollars. Any of you who have had a business know I'm right. The good ones are like gold, but a bad employee can ruin you.
In "right-to-work" states, it is a contract in fact between you and the employer that either of you may terminate for any reason. You can walk in, say "I quit" and leave..you cannot be sued or have your pay withheld to compel you to stay.
There's something to be said for both sides, which is what makes this a difficult topic. |
Turkeycall
Member
Username: Turkeycall
Post Number: 50
Registered: 09-2008
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 28, 2008 - 7:44 am: | |
Quote: "Same point there is no reason to pay a line worker $28+ a hour for putting a part on."
I'm not out to pick a fight but, wages are always tied to productivity. Here's an example:
I was laid-off from the GM stamping plant in Marion, Indiana in 1992. I accepted a transfer to the Coopersville, Michigan plant, GM's - AC Rochester's only domestic fuel injector
manufacturing plant. The other fuel injector plant is in Vienna, Austria.
In 1992 there were 1160 employees at Coopersville. This number included EVERYONE, from the plant manager, engineers, supervisors, maintenance, production - EVERYONE.
We were working seven days per week and a lot of twelve hour shifts. Every day there were 70,000 fuel injectors manufactured and assembled at a cost of $10.50 each. Labor cost: About $0.0091 per injector. [Call it a penny or less.] Employees per injector: .017
As employees retired they were not replaced. The work load was added to the existing force.
By 2005 there had been many advancements in fuel injector design and the manufacturing process, all, by the way, accomplished by in-house GM/Delphi design and manufacturing engineers.
In 2005 the production rate was 115,000 injectors per day with only 650 employees [everyone from the Plant Manager down] in the plant. The cost of the injector was $5.75 each. Labor cost per injector: $0.0088 [Something less than a penny.] Employees per injector: .006.
That's productivity improvement! That's why wages can increase and have a "zero" effect on production costs. That's how more vehicles, washing machines and dryers, pots and pans, - you name it - are purchased and keep the economy on the move.
Sadly, the Coopersville plant was closed in 2007. The bulk of the production was moved to Rochester, NY where the infamous Rochester carburator was made.
The Rochester facility was built in the '30's and the ground has probably been contaminated. You close your plant. you clean up the ground. Guess why Delphi kept Rochester and closed Coopersville?
The Coopersville plant was built in 1980-81 with the environment in mind. Twenty-seven years of production and it's still considered "greenfield" for ground contamination, so it was easiest to close.
Kind of a "Catch 22" for the working man, isn't it?
The Vienna plant, we were told, was built to supply the European Common Market. The rules of the market - again, my understanding - require that products sold in the Market must be manufactured in the Market.
My '03 Malibu had Vienna fuel injectors in it. Don't know why. Maybe the application. |
East_detroit
Member
Username: East_detroit
Post Number: 2225
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 28, 2008 - 8:00 am: | |
Sure are a lot of clueless haters.
Putting a part on? More like putting a part on every minute with a time study engineer watching every move to see if you can put more parts on while you're walking back to the stock. And the part isnt one screw. I'm sure most people posting here couldnt handle it.
I'd love to see a time study engineer watching guys leaning on cube walls talking about the Detroit Lions and the new Toyota they bought.
Want American? Go to www.sears.com and search for "Made in the USA" |
Mackinaw
Member
Username: Mackinaw
Post Number: 5459
Registered: 02-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 28, 2008 - 9:51 am: | |
Fine Buyamerican, but at some point you have to settle with yourself. Just understand, all those concessions to the righteous unions which could do no wrong and which America could not have done without has led to less healthy and stable corporations today which cannot weather the competition, when they otherwise probably could. The corporations you want us to collectively bail out by buying American are in this situation pretty much because they got broken by the unions. They were poorly managed corporations (still are from the accounts I heard), and they were subject to very strong union price distortions.
You seem to admit that with pride, but then insinuate that we need to keep buying from those corporations products just so they can pay off their liabilities to union members.
There is a big, big difference between America, even in 1930, and China, in terms of how the workers are treated. Throughout the last century, at least the last 40-60 years, the unions have demanded health care and enough income to live the "american dream," which is denoted by a suburban home and two cars. Not a bad deal, eh? |
Upinottawa
Member
Username: Upinottawa
Post Number: 1139
Registered: 09-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 28, 2008 - 11:09 am: | |
Not to interrupt the discussion, but someone mentioned Whirlpool. Tough times for that company as well: http://www.freep.com/article/2 0081028/BUSINESS06/81028028 |
Wykkidx
Member
Username: Wykkidx
Post Number: 67
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 28, 2008 - 12:05 pm: | |
Quote: "3. If you are in a union, it is very difficult to get fired, even if you are at fault."
Sadly that is not always true, one of my positions was a supervisor, when I had started at the company, the shop was non-union. After 7 years there the UAW finally came in, When the contract was signed a person from human resources came around with a UAW rep.
When they came to me I asked them what would happen with my position as I was a hourly supervisor, I was told that I would be joining the union and as a bonus I would have my wages frozen for 7 years. About a year later the company hired a head chopper to look for a way to cut costs, I was one of the many whom was removed, because they figured they could get someone to do my job for a quarter of the cost.
When I went to the UAW and showed them the tactics the company was using to get rid of people, they shrugged at me and told me that our shop was too small to form a strike and there was nothing that they could do. So just because you have a union does not mean your job is safe.
And yes I have worked on a assembly line and put parts on, worked screw guns and driven Hi/Lo's. I am not saying that the American workers are totally at fault, and honestly I truly belive that even if all the workers cut their wages down to $10 dollars a hour, the only thing that would happen is the money saved would go into a bonus to the CEO.
Until the top is cleaned and someone steps in that will not use the company as their personal piggy bank the Big 3 is destined to fail sooner or later. |
Optima
Member
Username: Optima
Post Number: 55
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 28, 2008 - 7:24 pm: | |
Mackinaw, I believe you are sadly on target. Yes, it's a complex issue but the unions along with some consistently bad corporate decision-making (along with unfavorable government activity or non-activity as it were) all helped contribute to our situation.
I cannot and will not admonish people for buying the best product they can afford - regardless of make or model. That, to me, is simply responsible behavior.
As I mentioned before, we are and have been experiencing an economic transformation out of a manufacturing society and I believe unions could have played a very pivotal role in that transformation to a information-processing society. Training the workers while making them realize that the old days were over and looking forward to new opportunities and skill levels would have been the utmost in a responsible approach. I still think it's a possibility and hope it is an agenda that will at least be considered for the many workers who deserve better.
Unions can play a very key role but there needs to be some reality interspersed with the demands. We all know the stories and the situation we find ourselves in but I'm afraid the real enemy (if there really is one) is still being mis-identified.
For the survival of the companies and possibly unions alike, I believe there needs to be a shake-up of mass proportions and even then it may be a huge question mark as to whether they can survival with or without each other.
In my opinion, the present situation and affiliations of the unions and what's left of the Big Three is untenable and unworkable.
I, for one, welcome the change. |
Lilpup
Member
Username: Lilpup
Post Number: 5520
Registered: 06-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 28, 2008 - 7:45 pm: | |
"we are and have been experiencing an economic transformation out of a manufacturing society"
not sustainable, not sustainable, not sustainable, not sustainable, not sustainable, not sustainable,
not sustainable, not sustainable, not sustainable, not sustainable, not sustainable, not sustainable,
not sustainable, not sustainable, not sustainable, not sustainable, not sustainable, not sustainable,
not sustainable, not sustainable, not sustainable, not sustainable, not sustainable, not sustainable,
not sustainable, not sustainable, not sustainable, not sustainable, not sustainable, not sustainable
maybe some day you will understand it but probably not before destroying what's left |
Optima
Member
Username: Optima
Post Number: 57
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 28, 2008 - 8:20 pm: | |
Don't shoot the messenger. I understand it very well and am only stating the obvious while truly hoping for a better future. Books such as Mega-Trends projected this change into an information - processing society and away from manufacturing in the mid-80's. Innumerable economic and forward - looking books throughout the 90's warned of the same impending social change.
Current publications such as those by Richard Florida foretell of the implications of not adapting to an area attractive to creative (as he defines it) people and unfortunately he uses Detroit as the worst case scenario. His wife is from here and he knows the area fairly well.
In a global economy it's a natural progression to transfer mfging to an area where labor costs are lower - painful, yet natural. I am not shocked or stunned that it is happening, only disappointed that I'm not watching it from afar.
Believe me, I am not a fan of globalization, was not consulted on NAFTA or CAFTA, was squeezed out of several automotive - related jobs due to outsourcing and forced into a new career at the height of my "peak-earning" years.
It's far too late for blame now but what is left can still be salvaged - just not under former rules or structures. |
Optima
Member
Username: Optima
Post Number: 58
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 28, 2008 - 8:23 pm: | |
Don't shoot the messenger. I understand it very well and am only stating the obvious while truly hoping for a better future. Books such as Mega-Trends projected this change into an information - processing society and away from manufacturing in the mid-80's. Innumerable economic and forward - looking books throughout the 90's warned of the same impending social change.
Current publications such as those by Richard Florida foretell of the implications of not adapting to an area attractive to creative (as he defines it) people and unfortunately he uses Detroit as the worst case scenario. His wife is from here and he knows the area fairly well.
In a global economy it's a natural progression to transfer mfging to an area where labor costs are lower - painful, yet natural. I am not shocked or stunned that it is happening, only disappointed that I'm not watching it from afar.
Believe me, I am not a fan of globalization, was not consulted on NAFTA or CAFTA, was squeezed out of several automotive - related jobs due to outsourcing and forced into a new career at the height of my "peak-earning" years.
It's far too late for blame now but what is left can still be salvaged - just not under former rules or structures. |
Eastsidedame
Member
Username: Eastsidedame
Post Number: 614
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 29, 2008 - 2:21 am: | |
Wykkidx, that's just rotten what happened with you and the union. If a company is too small for them to put the screws to management, then the company is too small to be compelled to hire union members. A "contract" must benefit both parties.
BOTH political parties ignored the fact that the USA is on the losing end of the trade business. Voting doesn't even seem to work, because politicians seem to be against the resurrection and success of American manufacturing. Are there no politicians on a national level who are trying to get something accomplished here?
Royce, if Michigan is manufacturing, then Michigan's politicians should be the standard bearers...both Dems and Reps. I just don't see that happening. Diane Feinstein's husband is in cahoots with the Chinese and Carl Levin is fossilizing before our eyes. Zzzzzz! WTF?
Detroiters make things? Make noise about this...a lot of noise. I've been to enough concerts to know Detroit can do it. Letters, protests, whatever it takes. PLEASE do not let another administration get away with this. Our grandparents had to step up and do it, perhaps this generation does too. |
Lilpup
Member
Username: Lilpup
Post Number: 5523
Registered: 06-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 29, 2008 - 2:51 am: | |
Michigan's politicians, along with others from the Rust Belt and Great Lakes region in general, have been very active in advocating for the manufacturers and fair trade. The automakers would probably be gone by now if not for John Dingell, who has also gotten a lot of other funding for the state. Carl Levin fights for the defense manufacturing here and has done well on the front. Kilpatrick, Conyers, and the Repubs maybe not so much, but Conyers is certainly in a position of power. If Pelosi hadn't made him her bitch Conyers would have bounced Bush years ago. He had a report all written up ready to go while the Repubs were still in control of Congress but then Pelosi wouldn't let him pull the trigger.
Pelosi really sucks and needs to go. |
Mackinaw
Member
Username: Mackinaw
Post Number: 5462
Registered: 02-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 29, 2008 - 10:12 am: | |
"BOTH political parties ignored the fact that the USA is on the losing end of the trade business"
Eastsidedame, insert "Michigan and a handful of other states stuck in the past" where you have "USA."
And, seriously, Obama does have a lot of overtones that suggest anti-trade policies to come. They won't happen though. No rational leader would take serious measures to control trade. He's just fishing for votes in Ohio.
Lilpup, what has John Dingell done other than constantly swim against the tide? Even most democrats understand and respect the basics of the market and the fact that certain jobs disappear sometimes because certain companies are simply out-competed by better companies. Dingell and people of his ilk hold us back-- they constantly chase the idea that this area can and should be the world's leader in auto production, and that the government should pay to get us back to 1960 status quo. Of course, it's all understandble...when a person has millions in auto company stock options and "pals around" with lobbyists and has PACs almost fully funded by the Big 3, yeah, he's gonna watch out for them... |
Eastsidedame
Member
Username: Eastsidedame
Post Number: 617
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 29, 2008 - 12:21 pm: | |
Lilpup: "Pelosi really sucks and needs to go."
Can I get an "Amen" from the choir? Ditching your Democrat house reps. is the only way to get rid of the Pelosi Menace. You can count on the TX 22nd to get a Republican back in there.
After Tom Delay, everyone needed a "change". We took a chance on a Democrat and he was awful. Back to the lab, yo: there's good change and then there's bad change.
Make Republicans the majority in the House, and Pelosi is out of the Speaker's Chair! |
Lilpup
Member
Username: Lilpup
Post Number: 5527
Registered: 06-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 29, 2008 - 12:42 pm: | |
No, I didn't say all the Dems suck, just Pelosi. |
Lilpup
Member
Username: Lilpup
Post Number: 5528
Registered: 06-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 29, 2008 - 12:45 pm: | |
Mackinaw, why do you hate the US? Why do you not care whether the country is economically viable? Are you high enough up a globalized corporate ladder that you are no longer part of the food chain? If you aren't you're just fooling yourself. |
Optima
Member
Username: Optima
Post Number: 59
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 29, 2008 - 12:48 pm: | |
Eastsidedame stated: Make Republicans the majority in the House, and Pelosi is out of the Speaker's Chair!
I think the solution is at hand.
*****
I appreciate the wisdom of Mackinaw regarding the stoic leadership here under Dingell and Levin's watch. We have seen catastrophic and horrific economic changes in this state under their watch and it is foolish not to hold these two relatively powerful legislators at least partially responsible after decades of repeated failure(s).
Let's sweep them out and give some new, energetic and realistic ideas a chance. Status quo is simply no longer an option...
Remember, THEY work for US and loyalty is NOT a one-way street. This is a "what have you done for me lately game." |
Buyamerican
Member
Username: Buyamerican
Post Number: 836
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 29, 2008 - 7:24 pm: | |
Wykkidx said "You point out how horrible the Asian company's are"
That is not correct. I have never said the Asian companies are horrible. I have said on a couple of occasions to some posters to put their foreign automobile where the sun don't shine. Please read my posts.
I say to you that I won't bite the hand that feeds me. Honda, Toyota or any foreign automaker here do not contribute anything to the U.S. except to pay some American workers a low wage with no benefits to build their cars. |
Wykkidx
Member
Username: Wykkidx
Post Number: 69
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 29, 2008 - 7:46 pm: | |
Quote:"say to you that I won't bite the hand that feeds me. Honda, Toyota or any foreign automaker here do not contribute anything to the U.S. except to pay some American workers a low wage with no benefits to build their cars."
So are you saying that those American workers making $15-$17 per/hr, they would be better off without those jobs?? Because the only thing I see the Big 3 doing is closing plants.
I was of the same mind set, in 97 I purchased a brand new custom built 3/4 ton dodge ram, I was beaming because I was buying American, when the dealer called me to tell me how far along the truck was and if it was still on time to be delivered he let me know that it was being built in MEXICO.
My hard earned American money was going to mexico and going to mexican workers in a mexican plant. So much for my buying American. |
Aaron
Member
Username: Aaron
Post Number: 142
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 29, 2008 - 8:23 pm: | |
"WHAT YOU DRIVE, DRIVES AMERICA!"
I would strongly recommend removing that incorrect comma if you're planning to print that on bumper stickers. |
Patrick
Member
Username: Patrick
Post Number: 5736
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 29, 2008 - 9:15 pm: | |
^^I think a comma may work in this case because there could be a slight pause between drive and drives. Eh, ya know, for dramatic effect. |
Mackinaw
Member
Username: Mackinaw
Post Number: 5463
Registered: 02-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, October 30, 2008 - 2:05 am: | |
haha of course Lilpup I hate the US lol! Because I say Detroit should imitate the other successful parts of the country (you know, the US of A?).
ohhhh, there's many things I don't like about America and our culture, but trust me, the things I've been saying on this thread are just rehashing what's made America a powerful economy for the last few decades. It's only Detroit and a handful of other regions that harbor discontent, and my credo is that it is the responsbility of the citizens and leaders of Michgian to not be stubborn, and to admit that there are new rules in a new economy, rules that seem to work for everyone else, but rules we don't want to play by because "we used to do so good with the old rules."
I want Detroit to do BETTER than all these other places, but I can guarantee you, even as someone who knows some history often wishes he could have seen the olden days of Detroit, that trying to reproduce Detroit's 20th century history in terms of the economic formula that brought prosperity is...impossible.
I am on no corporate ladder, trust me. |
Eastsidedame
Member
Username: Eastsidedame
Post Number: 624
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Friday, October 31, 2008 - 10:05 pm: | |
Hey, I feel like I was born 100 years too late, myself. I'm sure, Mackinaw, that there were those who remembered a Detroit before automobiles who wanted to reproduce 19th century Detroit economics. We were moving too fast, they probably said back in the day.
There's no reason we can't have our 19th Century architecture and our 20th Century enterprise in 21st Century Detroit...IF GIVEN THE OPPORTUNITY.
Detroit MUST be the best, no-brainer place to start or relocate a business. Period. Nothing happens before that does. |
Lilpup
Member
Username: Lilpup
Post Number: 5546
Registered: 06-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, November 01, 2008 - 6:53 am: | |
guess it isn't just a backwards, unionized Detroit problem...
Mercedes-Benz is offering buyouts to its 4,000 employees at the Vance plant,
Honda, Hyundai also scaling back
http://www.al.com/business/bir minghamnews/news.ssf?/base/bus iness/1225440953193620.xml&col l=2 |
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