 
Buyamerican
Member
Username: Buyamerican
Post Number: 837
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, October 30, 2008 - 9:48 am: |    |
Tonight is the infamous "Angels Night". The name has been changed but the goal for some young thugs and arsonists is the same, to trash and burn, loot and destroy the City of Detroit. When I read the paper this morning I was astonished to learn that:
1. Over 40,000 volunteers will be on the road tonight.
2. The National Guard is volunteering to help.
3. Wayne County Sheriff's Department is helping out.
4. Michigan State Police has a presence.
5. The U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives Bureau will be visible.
6. The Homeland Security Department is helping.
7. The U.S. Postal Police are volunteering.
8. The Detroit Police Department
9. The Detroit Fire Department.
What the hell is wrong with this picture. There should be a strong message to those that wish to destroy...get caught and you will face a very stiff penalty. Council should pass a law that anyone caught tonight or tomorrow night setting a fire or breaking into a home or business will get 5 years, period; no appeals, no pastors vouching for them (we had enough of that with thug KK), no grandmas or aunts coming forward and saying they are good kids. 5 years, PERIOD! Maybe this will stop.
(Message edited by Buyamerican on October 30, 2008) |
Secondndfloorwalkup
Member
Username: Secondndfloorwalkup
Post Number: 14
Registered: 08-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, October 30, 2008 - 9:59 am: | |
Council should pass a law that anyone caught tonight or tomorrow night setting a fire or breaking into a home or business will get 5 years, period; no appeals,
How about if thats that standard no matter what day it is? |
Alan55
Member
Username: Alan55
Post Number: 2328
Registered: 09-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, October 30, 2008 - 10:03 am: | |
What's wrong is that the picture you paint is at least a decade outdated, maybe more like 20 years outdated. Over the last number of years, "Angel's Night" has been peaceful and quiet, with typically fewer fires and acts of vandalism than on an ordinary night. It is evolving into a night of community support and togetherness, and hope for the future.
Maybe you can provide a few cures for the Civil War draft riots that plagued Detroit.....in the 1860's. |
Rsa
Member
Username: Rsa
Post Number: 1572
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 30, 2008 - 10:26 am: | |
um, what exactly should detroiter's be embarrassed about? that the community bands together to prevent arson? that there are the lowest amounts of fires on the 3 days around and including angels night? i mean you do realize that penalties for arson are handled through the judicial branch of the government right? |
Bragaboutme
Member
Username: Bragaboutme
Post Number: 555
Registered: 02-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, October 30, 2008 - 10:31 am: | |
I'm not embarrassed, that to me sounds like a community banding together for a common cause. Actually I'm proud of the amount of support. I just think it should be year round. |
Ggores
Member
Username: Ggores
Post Number: 461
Registered: 10-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, October 30, 2008 - 10:37 am: | |
Yeah, it's astonishment to show a "unification" to thwart activity that is many many years abated. Anyway, more arson happens on any old "un-angelic" night. National Guard? Heh. Too much. And again Detroit makes headlines, as if the city were on the verge of riot. Angel's Night has been a huge success with simple neighborhood patrols - now it's this? Whatever. |
East_detroit
Member
Username: East_detroit
Post Number: 2234
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 30, 2008 - 10:46 am: | |
quote:
2. The National Guard is volunteering to help.
6. The Homeland Security Department is helping.
Yikes and no thanks. |
Detroitnerd
Member
Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 3515
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, October 30, 2008 - 10:47 am: | |
If anything, Detroiters should be proud of the progress we've made in the last 15 years. I remember living in the Corridor around 1991, driving home on Devil's Night and seeing fires lighting up the sides of the freeways, smelling smoke everywhere. Somehow, I feel Detroiters have pulled together on this one to make a difference. |
Dhugger
Member
Username: Dhugger
Post Number: 426
Registered: 03-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, October 30, 2008 - 10:48 am: | |
I lived in the Cass Corridor in the 80's at the high point of 'Devils Night'. I watched buildings burn from our balcony.
What the police said & neighbors knew on the street was many of these arsons where slumlords trashing their buildings for insurance money.
That does not make news. |
Gravitymachine
Member
Username: Gravitymachine
Post Number: 2392
Registered: 05-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, October 30, 2008 - 10:49 am: | |
detroiters should be embarassed that this level of community organization, involvment and good will isn't put forth the other 364 (or 365 in case of leap year) days of the year.
ok, maybe that's a bit unfair as the type of effort being put forth here isn't really sustainable long term, but i think you all see where i'm going with it
(Message edited by gravitymachine on October 30, 2008) |
Cman710
Member
Username: Cman710
Post Number: 508
Registered: 07-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, October 30, 2008 - 10:56 am: | |
I agree with those who are taking a positive look at this. This is one example in which authorities and Detroiters have gotten together to solve a problem. If only there was such cooperation to thwart other kinds of crimes.
And to those suggesting the city council pass a law penalizing arson without appeal: First off, you would probably need to the state legislature to pass such a law, not the city council. Second, even if such a law passed, it would be unconstitutional and struck down. |
Denbytar64
Member
Username: Denbytar64
Post Number: 37
Registered: 03-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, October 30, 2008 - 11:51 am: | |
Seems like every night is "Devils" night in Detroit. So, why not have this level of protection every night? Happy Halloweenie! |
Buyamerican
Member
Username: Buyamerican
Post Number: 838
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, October 30, 2008 - 12:34 pm: | |
In 1984 the City of Detroit was hit the hardest by arson fires on Devils Night. After Coleman Young saw how bad that looked for him and his administration, the powers that be decided that from then on they wouldn't count rubbish fires, vacant home fires, car fires. That's how the count went down.
For the last 20 years Angels Night has not been peaceful and quiet, ask any Detroit Fire Department firefighter about tonight and they will tell you. Also, the numbers that the City has given the press the next day don't match the fires.
What should the Detroit community be ashamed of? They should be ashamed that they have to band together, get thousands of people on the streets with two-way radios and flashlights, get the National Guard and every other agency out to help prevent arson fires (this isn't happening in other communities)...and, if they are going to band together, be active in the community, unify themselves get together; whatever, do it every day and night to prevent drive-bys, school shootings, robberies, gang activity. Why just tonight and tomorrow? Aren't all of the above common occurences EVERY day in Detroit?
For those of you with your heads in the sand, remember....in five years thug KK will run for office again and I'm sure you'll put him back in office for a third term.
Where is the outrage?
(Message edited by Buyamerican on October 30, 2008) |
Detroitnerd
Member
Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 3518
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, October 30, 2008 - 12:38 pm: | |
Buyamerican, your contempt for the city disqualifies you from lecturing anybody. |
Blueidone
Member
Username: Blueidone
Post Number: 375
Registered: 03-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, October 30, 2008 - 12:41 pm: | |
I, too, choose to take the positive outlook. It shows that if the people of the city band together they can be a formidable group. True, that it can't be sustained long term, but at least for this 3-day event people do come together. It's a start! |
Buyamerican
Member
Username: Buyamerican
Post Number: 839
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, October 30, 2008 - 12:43 pm: | |
Contempt? No, I don't think so. I'm ashamed of Detroit and what it's become. You should be too.
Maybe you are too young to remember what a wonderful, vibrant, welcoming city Detroit was. I have wonderful memories of Detroit, but today is a different story. |
Detroitbred
Member
Username: Detroitbred
Post Number: 155
Registered: 06-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, October 30, 2008 - 12:44 pm: | |
Don't be too hard on Denby...I have wondered myself if any other cities go to the extent that Detroiter's do to protect their neighborhoods this time of the year. I wonder if all that will ever be unnecessary? I think what Denby means is...it is a little embarrassing to HAVE to go to those lengths, not embarrased about all the wonderful volunteers who have banded together each year. It is a damn shame to have to do it, that's all. |
Detroitnerd
Member
Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 3520
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, October 30, 2008 - 12:46 pm: | |
Where do you live, Buy? |
Lilpup
Member
Username: Lilpup
Post Number: 5537
Registered: 06-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, October 30, 2008 - 12:48 pm: | |
"For the last 20 years Angels Night has not been peaceful and quiet, ask any Detroit Fire Department firefighter about tonight and they will tell you. Also, the numbers that the City has given the press the next day don't match the fires."
We have some DFD on the board. Perhaps one of them can chime in. |
Saintme
Member
Username: Saintme
Post Number: 265
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, October 30, 2008 - 12:49 pm: | |
"For the last 20 years Angels Night has not been peaceful and quiet, ask any Detroit Fire Department firefighter about tonight and they will tell you. Also, the numbers that the City has given the press the next day don't match the fires. "
Can you show us the DFD fire count vs. the city's count given to the press? |
Daddeeo
Member
Username: Daddeeo
Post Number: 251
Registered: 09-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, October 30, 2008 - 12:54 pm: | |
I think Detroiters should be proud that they have acted to cut the amount of fires down considerably over the years on Devil's Night.
This type of action is needed throughout the city against dumping and crime all year around. The city would be a lot better to live in with this effort. |
Buyamerican
Member
Username: Buyamerican
Post Number: 840
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, October 30, 2008 - 12:54 pm: | |
Detroitnerd, I live in a community where I don't have to worry that someone will set fire to my house or garage or rubbish or car. It's not a perfect community by any means, but I am not afraid to sit on my porch at night or walk around the block. |
Cub
Member
Username: Cub
Post Number: 921
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, October 30, 2008 - 12:58 pm: | |
Buyamerican, I am not afraid to sit on my porch at night either and I live In Detroit. So whats your point? |
Tkshreve
Member
Username: Tkshreve
Post Number: 645
Registered: 07-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, October 30, 2008 - 12:59 pm: | |
Detroitnerd,
His residence has little relevance to his frustrations towards Detroit proper.
Quite a large list can be generated that links (monetarily, politically, etc.) Detroit proper to its' surrounding suburbs.
That argument is yesterdays popcorn. |
Saintme
Member
Username: Saintme
Post Number: 266
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, October 30, 2008 - 12:59 pm: | |
Again, I ask . . .
Can you show us the DFD fire count vs. the city's count given to the press? |
Detroitbred
Member
Username: Detroitbred
Post Number: 156
Registered: 06-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, October 30, 2008 - 1:01 pm: | |
Buy...I feel sad more than ashamed...I am not too young to remember Detroit's former self, and have many happy memories growing up there. I feel badly for the children coming up in Detroit today, who can't feel safe or happy. |
Buyamerican
Member
Username: Buyamerican
Post Number: 841
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, October 30, 2008 - 1:03 pm: | |
Although I am not privy to those records today, I can tell you for a fact that after 1984 the count was changed to reflect better numbers. Fire Department officials were not allowed to discuss with the news media anything about the number of "actual" fires versus the numbers given.
There are others on this board who can substantiate this as well.
(Message edited by Buyamerican on October 30, 2008) |
Tkshreve
Member
Username: Tkshreve
Post Number: 646
Registered: 07-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, October 30, 2008 - 1:05 pm: | |
Quote:
I think Detroiters should be proud that they have acted to cut the amount of fires down considerably over the years on Devil's Night.
This type of action is needed throughout the city against dumping and crime all year around. The city would be a lot better to live in with this effort.
Pretty much sums up this entire debate. |
Detroitnerd
Member
Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 3521
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, October 30, 2008 - 1:22 pm: | |
I think Buyamerican's frustrations sound like many people who used to live in Detroit but moved to the suburbs.
Now, when the U.S. government gave home loans to G.I.'s (who were mostly white males), and rolled freeways out into the farmland, what did people think would happen? It was a real-estate bonanza. Capital, people of means and factories and shops left the city. By the 1970s, the only people who remained were die-hard city folk or poor folks. Everybody who moved out, starting in the 1950s, must have known that bad days awaited the city. Revenues were falling, costs were rising, jobs were leaving. But these were great days for Detroit's suburbs, which felt insulated from urban problems.
And so, as revenues grew in the suburbs to care for people who had few social problems, the suburbs felt great. But maybe there was a gnawing guilt that expressed itself as rage at the city. (Rage is often guilt in disguise.) All of a sudden, it wasn't that they abandoned the city that they loved so much, it was "Look what THEY did it to MY city. THEY should be ASHAMED of themselves."
Trust me, from the historical view of things, there's plenty of shame to go around, THEM and US. Honestly, what's so surprising that a city plagued by annual problems and with diminished capacity to deal with them would enlist the help of other governments for one particularly troubling night?
Forgive me if I'm wrong, and I doubt I am, but that seems to be what's informing your lecture about Devil's Night, which is, like so many of your conceptions (like not being able to sit on my porch or walk around the block at night), is embarrassingly outdated. |
Docterry
Member
Username: Docterry
Post Number: 108
Registered: 08-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, October 30, 2008 - 1:25 pm: | |
Tk - yes, it does. I would add, though, that I do, vaguely, have early childhood memories of a great Detroit. I also have memories of a time when it was much worse than it is today. So, no, I do not think we need to be "ashamed". While we are a long way from the city's height, we're also a long way from it's "bottom". I don't mean "bottom" in an economic sense - although I do think that is improving as well. I mean it in the sense of there having been a time when people did a whole lot less in terms of looking out for each other and collaborating across all kinds of line to get the necessary accomplished. So...no, not ashamed, but optimistic in that we have learned something about cooperating, even if it can't be sustained on a large scale. And yes, we do sit on the front porch at night without fear. Even walk over to the gas station after dark. And I do think residence is relevant. It is too easy not to see the small - and even larger - improvements if you aren't here at ground level. As someone else pointed out on another thread, the emphasis in the media here is always on the negative. So we don't say "Hurray! Devil's night isn't what it used to be because individuals and organizations and government have come together!" We say "Ohhh! Look at all they have to do to keep the city from burning down!" Glass half-empty or half-full is always a matter of choice in perspective. |