  Busterwmu Member Username: Busterwmu Post Number: 564 Registered: 09-2004 |
The Michigan Central Station could once again be a hub for Detroit Transit, with some vision, lots of $$$, and a plan in place. It won’t be the only transportation option, but an important cog in the revitalization of transit in and out and through the Motor City. We’ve all seen the destruction of the inside of the building, thanks to the neglect of owner Matty Moron and the constant bombardments by vagrants and film crews and everything else. Here is my plan for the building’s revitalization: We need to realize that the building can once again be successful as a train station, even though not in the CBD, as long as we also provide a direct and convenient link to the CBD for such passengers. MC is about 2.5 miles outside of the city center. When constructed in 1913, the station sat on the right of way with Chicago to the west and the Detroit River Tunnel to the east. Also to the east, was the direct connection to the old Michigan Central Third Street Depot and freight yards. Much of this alignment remains today, covered only with vegetation. The rail alignment to Third Street continued at ground level where the Tunnel entrance descends down, then continues through a trough grade separation under Bagley, Rosa Parks, Lafayette, and Fort Street, where it begins to curve to parallel the river and more of less was built over by the enlargement of W. Jefferson in the 80s, after the remnants of FSUD and the approach viaduct were removed. By this time, the freight houses along the river were a thing of the past, too, and the tracks were trimmed back to roughly 15th Street, where the present CSX alignment and NS Boat Yard line end. The tracks between MCS and the Third St. depot were removed, though the trough remained. This still-remaining old freight alignment is very important. As I see it, Detroit needs a commuter rail station downtown, but that does not mean MC cannot be significant, too. We all know that the time is running out for both Joe Louis and Cobo in their current forms. Joe Louis might be replaced by a new arena near the Fox, while numerous plans are afloat to rebuild and enlarge Cobo. What if the Joe Louis parking garage was demolished, and the Northern face of Cobo demolished, and a trainshed was constructed parallel to Congress, with all stub tracks terminating near the corner of Washington Blvd and Congress St? This would be more downtown than old Fort St. station by 3-4 blocks, and more central than a station near Brush Street (old GTW Station, where the Ren Cen is today). What’s to say the new commuter station cannot be tied in to a redeveloped Cobo Hall? It could not be any more convenient in regard to downtown location, and would have a direct tie to the DPM/Cobo Station. Put the trainshed on the lower level and build Cobo above, or scale the north wall of Cobo away from Congress a few hundred feet and put a glass ceiling over part of the trainshed, to give it plenty of ambient lighting (we don’t want to copy oldie Detroit Metro Airport terminals... do we?) Most of this alignment is in place and with nothing built over it. Commuter trains can stop at MCS on their away into the city. The trains can then skirt the river tunnel, follow the old alignment under Fort Street, then follow the old FSUD viaduct alignment behind the post office. The Joe Louis garage could be demoed when the Joe is no longer used. Cobo will be essentially rebuilt, anyhow. A bridge can carry the tracks over W. Jefferson behind Riverfront Apartments, and the Lodge Freeway. As for MC, it can again become the Detroit terminal for Amtrak trains into an out of the city. You say, “how will Amtrak service to Pontiac, etc. be maintained with a loop out of the way to MCS?” In California, the successful Amtrak Pacific Surfliner trains operate between San Diego and LA, with some continuing north to Santa Barbara. Los Angeles Union Passenger Terminal is a stub ended terminal, but it is still used for these through trains. The trains operate push-pull, stay at Los Angeles for 20 minutes, the engineer hops on the cab at the other end, and the train takes off. The process is reversed for trains coming south. Michigan Amtrak trains already operate in push-pull mode. Why can’t the train follow it’s current route from Chicago and go straight in to MCS? It could then reverse direction, get on the Conrail alignment at Bay City Jct, access the CN at CP-Vinewood, and take the same route it already does to get there. MC gets used, and service north is retained. It would also be able to be used effectively in a start up service south to Toledo, and for any future trains which would utilize the Detroit River Tunnel to Canada. MCS would then be Detroit’s hub for Amtrak service, and a stop for every commuter train operating on the AA-Detroit line, or any other future line. Shorter “Shuttle” commuter trains could be timed to carry passengers between MCS and the downtown terminal to get people to and from the Amtrak trains, while the commuter trains on the AA line could just continue after stopping at MC toward downtown. As for MCS revitalization, we can make it an important administrative transit center. SEMCOG, DDOT and SMART are working to slowly combine the two services. Why not centralize the headquarters, marketing, route planning, and all administrative positions in the MCS office tower? Both authorities are probably in need of new facilities (DDOT, for sure). How about the new commuter rail line from AA to Detroit, all of it’s operations can be housed here. How about dispatching, planning, and operations for the new Woodward Ave. light rail operations? Transit police can base their operations here, too. They can all be headquartered on the floors of the MCS office tower. While the incompleteness of the upper floors of the office tower was once seen as a negative, it can now be a substantial positive. No need to tear out walls, wiring, old systems, old supplies. It’s already been done, because it was never done in the first place. It’s like a new building within the frame of an old building. Everything can be customized, because they’re starting from a nearly clean slate. Extra unoccupied room in the tower? Lease it out to companies that need office space. In LA, the Metropolitan Transit Authority built a new headquarters building beside LAUPT. In Detroit, we already have our office building atop our train station. MC can be a stop on the commuter line, and THE Detroit station for Amtrak trains. Thus, it would serve Mexicantown and Corktown neighborhood commuters, and area wide Amtrak passengers. Amtrak passengers could take the commuter shuttle downtown or to another commuter stop, but most Amtrak passengers would drive their car to MC or be dropped off. I mean, that’s pretty much how it is at other Michigan Amtrak stations. Know about the old Post Office building a block to MC’s east on 15th Street at Marantette St.? It’s been abandoned for years, with as many windows broken as MC has. I forsee parking garage written all over it. Knock out the windows, now we have air vents. Insert parking garage decks, as in the Michigan Theatre. Suddenly you have the prettiest garage in Detroit, serving commuters and passengers every day. Put a pedestrian tunnel under 15th Street into MC’s east side. It can have moving walkways if you like, and escalators up onto the main floor of MC at the east entrance. Renovate and update the station’s public areas. Chicago’s Union Station has a busy food court... MC can have one too. Gift Shops, news stands. Open the ticket windows for Amtrak and commuter passengers. Restore seating in the concourse. Restore the great hall (waiting room), but rent it out for weddings, company meetings, events, etc. Other big city train stations do this. We have precedents many in other places. Although the trainsheds were demolished in 2000, the platforms remain, and the track areas were simply paved with asphalt. Relaying new track would not be a problem, nor would erecting modern style platform canopies....unless... Anyone familiar with the Grand Rapids area might know that there used to be a Union Terminal near downtown to serve the Pere Marquette, Pennsylvania, and New York Central. Today, it sits under the US-131 freeway, and the station was demoed in the late 50's in preparation for the freeway build. The large glass and steel frame trainshed was taken apart piece by piece and moved to 28th Street for use as a lumber warehouse. Although it’s been taken apart again, it is now safely in storage in the Grand Rapids area. Wouldn’t it be cool to re-erect the Grand Rapids trainshed behind MC as a way to utilize pieces of two of the state’s grandest train stations? We’d need a trainshed anyway, and a large one with lots of light and protection from the elements would be the best. In one stroke, we’ve reopened MC and found important realistic, valuable uses for it. We’ve got a grand train station for intercity passengers. We’ve got a facility that can handle an expansion and the current and future capacity. We’ve got a new downtown commuter terminal. No more #53 DDOT Woodward bus transfer from New Center to a bus to get downtown. No major demolition of buildings that wasn’t already going to be done. The alignment to downtown is already there. I realize this would take what seems like and endless supply of $$$ and a lot of planning. I realize it won’t have support from everyone. This is just my idea, one person’s, to try to stem the flow of demolition, reliance on the automobile, and negativity in our great city. | ||
Registeredguest Member Username: Registeredguest Post Number: 438 Registered: 10-2003 |
What if Detroit just left this and all other buildings vacant and secured as a skyscraper acropolis and focused 100% of its attention on addressing the structural issues such as an archaic tax system, an abundance of under-qualified workers, and an unconscionably high entitlement system that stifles and prevents market based growth? | ||
Greatlakes Member Username: Greatlakes Post Number: 271 Registered: 07-2007 |
We can't even secure the schools closed in the past few years. A skyscraper acropolis would probably seem more like a necropolis even with the best of intentions. I'm sure that'll just spur development... I was prepared to be cynical about your plan, Busterwmu, but I have to say I like it. It'd be tough to pull in even great economic times, unfortunately. | ||
Burnsie Member Username: Burnsie Post Number: 1533 Registered: 11-2003 |
Busterwmu-- Your ideas are exciting and I appreciate the time you took to type them out. However, as long as Moroun owns the property, NOTHING will happen to the depot except further decay, and ultimately demolition if huge chunks start falling off regularly. Our best hope is that after Moroun dies, whoever in his family who will run his company will have a more enlightened view of the depot. I won't be holding my breath. | ||
Eastsidedame Member Username: Eastsidedame Post Number: 630 Registered: 12-2006 |
Are there any laws on the books, whereby Moroun can be sued and forced to improve or sell the property? Are they current on their taxes...must be enormous. Isn't this building protected as a landmark of some kind? | ||
Sean_of_detroit Member Username: Sean_of_detroit Post Number: 2091 Registered: 03-2008 |
You have some good ideas (please don't take this post the wrong way). Need has to come before anything else (unless it serves a purpose sort of like Fort Wayne). You'd have to prove a need for the uses in mind. Then you would have to prove MCS as the best option. Playing devils advocate; Why should the few resources and tax dollars we have, be put into consolidating anything to MCS, when a new building would possibly be much cheaper? Also, why is the proposed commuter station in New Center/Midtown good enough? What significant benefit does moving/building the station in Downtown? The light rail line with a more central regional station seems to make some sense. No? (This is just a guess) The owner's suggestion for using it as a casino and convention center, was in response to the need for such things. For whatever reasons, MCS was not the best option. | ||
Dtowncitylover Member Username: Dtowncitylover Post Number: 376 Registered: 02-2008 |
If we want the commuter rail that the RTCC envisions, we are going to need a large station than the one in the New Center area. Alot more trains are going to be rolling in and out from Detroit, maybe not something as big as MSC, but much larger than the Amtrak station. (Message edited by dtowncitylover on November 01, 2008) | ||
Burnsie Member Username: Burnsie Post Number: 1534 Registered: 11-2003 |
Eastsidedame-- Landmark laws might give some protection against tearing down a building, but they don't require the owner to keep it maintained-- except in some designated local historic districts, perhaps. | ||
Retroit Member Username: Retroit Post Number: 408 Registered: 04-2008 |
Busterwmu, your Master Plan is impressive, but a very expensive expenditure for only a few hundred daily passengers. Before your plan can be expected to come to fruition, demand will have to increase substantially, perhaps with a 2 hour high-speed rail link to Chicago. I hate to see your talent go to waste, and your proposal is no less reasonable than an "Aerotropolis", a Cruise Ship Marine Terminal, or an Alternate Space Shuttle Launching Facility, but this is Detroit after all. | ||
Busterwmu Member Username: Busterwmu Post Number: 566 Registered: 09-2004 |
I must say I appreciate the comments. I didn't know if I was going to get anything other than the usual "tear that schitt down." Greatlakes, Burnsie, Sean, Retroit and others, thanks for reading it all the way through and responding with your thoughtful comments. I realize that even in an optimal economic condition, this would be a hard pull, considering the amount of decay MC and the surrounding area has gone through. KK is gone. MM still stands in the way of progress and preservation. Retroit, "a few hundred passengers" may be the current Amtrak passengers plus the beginning use of the AA-Detroit commuter line, but things will grow. Once additional trains and an expansion of routes continue, the numbers would continue to increase. I don't think the numbers would stay low for long. Did someone say we should start the ball rolling to put MC in its own historic district? Thanks again, all. | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 3576 Registered: 04-2006 |
Another thing about re-opening MCS, instead of building another smaller station downtown is that you could extend the Canadian VIA Rail line that runs from Windsor to Quebec City. This is Canada's equivalent to the Amtrak Northeast Corridor line; the line that runs from Boston through NYC, Philly and terminates in DC. | ||
Russix Member Username: Russix Post Number: 148 Registered: 11-2006 |
gotta do this on the cheap, mothball all the upper floors, renovate the station platform and lobby. run a free shuttle between michigan people mover station and MCS, organize a high speed rail link between Chicago and Toronto with MCS as the transfer station. If you have an increase in business commuters between the cities, demand for the upper floors will arise to fund its development with private investment. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 5131 Registered: 10-2003 |
Busterwmu, I like your ideas. I've always thought that MCS should be renovated to use as the hub of a regional rail network, as well as the main station for intercity trains. You seem to have thought things through pretty well! 1. I think a light rail link from MCS to downtown would probably be more feasible than another commuter rail shuttle. The commuter rail shuttle would, from an operation standpoint, almost have to be a "free" service. If fares do not reflect this additional cost, it might be expensive to operate over such a relatively short distance. If you used a light rail as a shuttle, it could run along Michigan Avenue and attract passengers along the route instead of only to/from the train station. 2. There may not be a perceived need for such a project now, but there will be. The Midwest High Speed Rail and Ohio Hub plans are going to be moving along a lot faster now that they have Congressional support. If we see an Obama administration, greater investment in rail is almost a certainty. One has to consider the sheer number of trains per day that would use this station, both commuter, "regional" and Amtrak. I believe the Ohio Hub plan alone would have 8-10 trains per day into Detroit. 3. MCS has train storage and maintenance space that the New Center area, heavy with freight traffic, does not, right? 4. The renovation of the office portion would be absolutely essential to the success of the project. Leases from the office space are likely needed to cover the cost of the project. In addition, the office space could help introduce additional activity and investment into the neighborhood, especially if good connectivity to Michigan Avenue is implemented. These are just thoughts off the top of my head. Of course, they're fair game just like anything else. | ||
Reuel Member Username: Reuel Post Number: 1 Registered: 11-2008 |
Can you flesh out the likely costs, sources of funds and timeline? | ||
Sean_of_detroit Member Username: Sean_of_detroit Post Number: 2114 Registered: 03-2008 |
Aren't they building some sort of transit center just North of Midtown, near Tech Town? | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 5133 Registered: 10-2003 |
More information would be needed before you could determine the costs and timeline. First, a scope of work would need to be determined. Included in this scope would be a decision on whether to proceed with a restoration, or limit the work to a renovation project. Once you quantify the track repairs and upgrades, platform construction/repair (including ADA requirements), interior finishes and fixtures, HVAC requirements, structural repairs, etc, then you can begin developing a budget and schedule. The first step would be a feasibility study, to include a complete condition assessment of the existing structures and facilities. The work could be phased, as funding permits. Of course, the City, County, or State (or a regional authority-ha!) would need to purchase the property first. For those who are discouraged by such a huge undertaking, the City of Richmond has already begun a similar project. Several years ago, they restored the station building of the 1901 Main Street Station. Currently, there are two Amtrak Regional trains in each direction servicing this station, and the shed behind the station building is currently vacant and in a state of disrepair. The City, however, has conducted a feasibility study of renovating the train shed, and has plans to eventually construct an intermodal transportation hub there, to include increased Regional service, through trains to the South (which currently bypass Main Street Station), Southeast High Speed Rail, a proposed VRE commuter rail extension, light rail, city bus, light rail or street car, and Greyhound bus. Detroit at least has the advantage of the office building that it could leverage toward the funding of the remainder of the work (and what a great office building it could be!). (Message edited by DaninDC on November 03, 2008) | ||
Busterwmu Member Username: Busterwmu Post Number: 568 Registered: 09-2004 |
Good comments, all. You're right about the extension from Canada, iheartthed. I believe Windsor and VIA Rail Canada have a master plan in place which will someday move the current Windsor terminal off the lonely CN line in the shadow of Hiram Walker & Sons to someplace on the Canadian Pacific - the same line the tunnel is on. I know the Windsor-Toronto-Montreal-Quebe c City line is the "NEC" of Canada; I wonder if there would be much of a market for a Detroit extension ever. How many people want to go direct from Toronto to Detroit or the other way? If the train terminated in Detroit, it would be easy to do customs and inspection, as Detroit would be the only international stop. Everyone who gets on at Detroit gets customs before they get on. At least there would be no delays Toronto-bound. It makes sense that the way to go about doing a renovation of sorts would be in phases. Open up the Concourse waiting area, underground tunnel to gutted parking garage to the east and the train platforms. Then slowly work toward each office tower floor, the great hall, and other parts. I think for the sake of speed, the "shuttle" commuter trains would be a good idea from MCS to a downtown station at Congress & Washington, which would ferry Amtrak bound passengers from downtown and vice versa. This no stops train could make the move in what? 5 minutes from start to stop, even at only 20mph. I do agree though, that if a light rail link is every developed on Michigan Ave, a reopened MCS would be a very important stop. As mentioned, MC and the surrounding area do offer room for coach yards, service facilities, etc, because it was built with all of these in the first place. At the present new center area, the trains are elevated above grade and cross side streets every block on bridges. There is no place right at the station to put in a trainyard without some serious work. The closest place, I imagine, would be just east of Milwaukee Junction along the old GTW. But the Conrail crosses here too and frequent coach moves from yard to station could clog that interlocking up even more than it may already be. Speaking of the stores offered in a renovated MC, not only can they cater to the travelling passenger, but for the neighborhood as well. A drug store might be useful for both homebound passenger and for the local who lives at Bagley and 18th. Same with salon, gift store, small grocery place, etc, etc. This would add to the general appeal from the surrounding community and prove it's value to them as well. Danindc, you bring up the Richmond train station, an excellent example. The fact is, we have numerous precedents all around the country. Earlier, I cited Chicago's Union Station and LAUPT, both thriving passenger terminals today. Cincinnati, Indianapolis, and Kansas City quickly come to mind as other places where train travel shares space with some other adaptive reuse at their historic train terminals. I think the MC office tower, as mentioned, would be essential, bringing in profits from rents to subsidize other areas which need work. Once again, thanks for your comments. | ||
Busterwmu Member Username: Busterwmu Post Number: 569 Registered: 09-2004 |
Just had a friend of mine send me this link. Very cool photo gallery of recent MC photos, including some areas I've never seen before in other photo galleries of the station. Such a depressing scene, and really sad to see just how bad it's gotten over the past few years. Too bad Catfish doesn't keep watch still..... http://www.citrusmilo.com/mcs/ depot01.cfm | ||
Izzyindetroit Member Username: Izzyindetroit Post Number: 127 Registered: 07-2008 |
Those pictures are so colorful and professional. I really like the comments too. For anyone who hasn't been in the basement levels of the station where the tunnels are, please keep in mind that it is pitch black down there. The camera lighting in these photos here are very deceiving. I was about crapping my pants when I was down there with only a mini-maglight with bad batteries held by my roommate and the flash of my camera. Very creepy. | ||
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner Post Number: 1993 Registered: 04-2006 |
Amtrak moved the station to its current location because it serves the N suburbs. You cannot get from MCS to the N Suburbs very easily. This would result in fewer riders. Are you sure that this is 2.5 miles outside of the CBD?? I would check that figure. Are you aware that the Parking garage next to Joe Louis was designed to be a train station that would link into the people mover? How do you propose to pay for this plan? A plan is nothing if it can't be financed. \ Where is your justifcation in saying that SMART, SEMCOG and DDOT are being combined? Yes SMART has moved to the Buhl, but these are to very separate agencies. SEMCOG has a much larger coverage area and would need to take over AATA, Blue Water and several smaller transit companies in orger for this to be true. The agencies also have very different missions and members. | ||
Mcwalbucksnfitch Member Username: Mcwalbucksnfitch Post Number: 80 Registered: 10-2006 |
Buster, talk to John Ferchill. If anyone has the resources and determination, it's him. | ||
Glowblue Member Username: Glowblue Post Number: 6 Registered: 09-2008 |
Amtrak moved the station to its current location because it serves the N suburbs. You cannot get from MCS to the N Suburbs very easily. This would result in fewer riders. But Amtrak has three stations in the northern suburbs (Pontiac, Birmingham, Royal Oak). If anybody from the northern suburbs wants to use Amtrak, they'll use one of those stations. They won't go all the way to Detroit. Also, MCS is less than a half mile from an I-75 exit, so anybody from the suburbs could access it easily if needed. Are you sure that this is 2.5 miles outside of the CBD?? I would check that figure. According to Google Earth, the distance from MCS to Campus Martius is 1.58 miles. The distance from the current station on Woodward to CM is 2.88 miles. | ||
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner Post Number: 1995 Registered: 04-2006 |
Glow, the location allows Amtrak to get to those 3 stations in the N Burbs. You can't get to the N burbs from MCS without being a contortionist conductor, adding lots of time to the trip. Thats what I thought in terms of distance. To say that MCS is 2.5 miles from the CBD is a stretch. | ||
Irish_mafia Member Username: Irish_mafia Post Number: 1469 Registered: 10-2003 |
Has anyone connected with John Hertel on this? | ||
Huraporta Member Username: Huraporta Post Number: 5 Registered: 09-2008 |
This was suggested before. Just leave the MCS as it is - free it of any harmful and unsafe debris and appreciate it as a monument - in the way Europeans have for ages - there are columns and artifacts left all over Rome that serve no present day purpose but are admired for their beauty. Turn the area around the MCS into a lovely park with some fountains and add night time lighting to the building and people will flock to the MCS. Then maybe a few years out the lobby or terminal area could be restored with shops and restaurants. I think this is a more immediate way to save the MCS and far more affordable. Also Detroit would receive a lot of kudos as we would be the first American city to take this approach at saving an architectural landmark. | ||
Dtowncitylover Member Username: Dtowncitylover Post Number: 382 Registered: 02-2008 |
Huraporta, your right. Except for that fact that MCS is littered with trash, graffitied like there's no tomorrow, and the entrance is a barbed wired fence. At least in Rome, one can go up to the ruins. The MCS is a beauty, but then you see all the graffiti and trash and its another schitthole. | ||
Rhymeswithrawk Member Username: Rhymeswithrawk Post Number: 1505 Registered: 11-2005 |
You'd have to wrest it from the evil clutches of the dastardly Matty "Moron" Moroun. | ||
Sean_of_detroit Member Username: Sean_of_detroit Post Number: 2150 Registered: 03-2008 |
ITC Renovated Michigan Central Station Rendering: http://www.interstatetraveler. us/Forward.Thinking/Urban.Rest oration/MichiganCentralDepot.D etroit.htm | ||
Exmotowner Member Username: Exmotowner Post Number: 510 Registered: 06-2005 |
It either needs to be restored or torn down. I hope you guys can get rid of some of the corruption in the city goverment and get after guys like these. It just blows my mind that they get away with it. I personally think moroun is an idiot for not cashing in on the casino business that Detroit is trying to attract. That would make one AWESOME casino! Evidently this guy has the money to pull it off. What the hell? I think he should go to jail.Does he not worry about getting sued if someone gets killed there? This Moroun guy must be an idiot. IMO | ||
Gumby Member Username: Gumby Post Number: 1866 Registered: 11-2003 |
quote: Man I am glad the people in Rome don't think like that otherwise we wouldn't have the Colosseum. What if the Greeks were so flippant about their past? No Parthenon the whole Acropolis would have been destroyed for condos. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 5187 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: You're missing a couple key differences here. One, the MCS Terminal is 95 years old, while Roman ruins are over 2000 years old. I probably wouldn't use 2000 year old concrete structures, either, given the unknowns of the materials--especially if the structure hasn't been maintained for centuries. Two, Michigan Central Station CAN have a use, as illustrated above. It's not as obsolete as you believe, given record passenger ridership on Amtrak, and current plans for high speed and commuter rail. quote: I seriously doubt this. The National Trust and other preservation organizations don't have a habit of rewarding "preservation through neglect". Frankly, I think your ideas are fanciful, at best--people are going to "flock" to MCS just because someone cuts the grass and installs lighting? Have you ever been to Grand Circus Park? quote: Tear it down for more parking lots? This is the same kind of thinking that has put Detroit where it is. Demolition costs a lot of money, especially when the ROI is virtually zero. There is such a thing as "mothballing", you know. Unfortunately, the MCS has an owner that doesn't give two shits about the public welfare. | ||
Busterwmu Member Username: Busterwmu Post Number: 570 Registered: 09-2004 |
Appologies, MCS is only about 1.5 miles from the city center. My 2.5 miles was incorrect. Still, it is a distance I doubt anyone will be walking, thus, the shuttle commuter train from MCS downtown AND light rail/streetcars on Michigan would be necessary. You're right about the easy access from I-75. With the rebuilt on ramps to Michigan from I-96, the station is really accessible by freeway from many inner burbs, and by surface streets in the city. Mothballing is an idea, something they are working on in Buffalo while they preserve parts of the old New York Central depot there. Temporary opaque glass panes have been installed on the windows to keep the rain and birds out, until they can secure funds to put new windows in. Buffalo Central Terminal was also built outside of the city center and was actually abandoned in the late 70's when Amtrak chose a different site for their station. Sounds a lot like MCS actually. Check out this website to see what they're doing and what they've accomplished. http://buffalocentralterminal. org/ | ||
Evander Member Username: Evander Post Number: 17 Registered: 06-2008 |
exactly, busterwmu. buffalo has done with their (architectural masterpiece, too-far-out of the CBD) ruined train station exactly what a detroit nonprofit should be established to: work with scumbag slumlord to put ownership in a trust, restore the public areas for art shows, performances, modeltrain collector shows, etc., mothball the offices/tower, secure the goddamn building and charge all those stupid urban explorers a fee to come in there and take their stupid pictures. | ||
Huraporta Member Username: Huraporta Post Number: 6 Registered: 09-2008 |
The architectural monument idea I proposed. Was meant as a short term solution. (clean up hazardous debris, light it, appreciate it, and maybe someone with money and vision will re-utilize it. I realize it is not 2000 years old but nothing man-made on this continent is. Why does a building have to be ancient to be appreciated. I think the MCS is beautiful, my hope is that it will be preserved. Metro Detroiters have to stop thinking everything new is the best. | ||
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner Post Number: 1999 Registered: 04-2006 |
Evander, keep being frank with your opinions dude don't let the herd of one way thinkers run you over! Buster, thanks for the post and comparative to Buffalo's station. Detroit has a lot to learn, and its best to learn from example so we don't make the same mistakes as those that blazed a trail did. | ||
Sumas Member Username: Sumas Post Number: 342 Registered: 01-2008 |
Lots of good thinking on this thread. Take it to the next level. | ||
Cman710 Member Username: Cman710 Post Number: 518 Registered: 07-2006 |
I would be happy (and excited) to start an organization dedicated to saving MCS. The problem I see, however, is that so long as the property is held up by Maroun, nothing can really be done about it. The preservation group in Buffalo purchased the station from the city for $1. If that was a possibility, I would be the first one trying to form a non-profit to try to save the station. With the situation the way it is now, however, I would be reluctant to start such a group. How can you get people to donate money for a cause when you have no tangible goal? Perhaps I will write Maroun a letter and ask whether he would work in concert with a preservation group. (I am not holding my breath, however.) I think he cares about the land for the train tracks, not the building itself. And the property itself is unlikely to become commercially valuable anytime soon, so you never know. | ||
Leannam1989 Member Username: Leannam1989 Post Number: 102 Registered: 06-2008 |
Not sure if this is helpful, but it's interesting. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L ist_of_railway_stations#United _States Train Stations in the U.S. and what they are used for now. I've been to the St. Louis Union Station. It's pretty nice to wander around in. There's a food court there and some shops. It's fancy, but it's like any mall. St. Louis Union Station was abandoned from 1978 to 1985. The final fight scene in Escape From New York was filmed in Union Station (the movie itself was mostly filmed in St. Louis. Fortunately, the city is improving). | ||
Leannam1989 Member Username: Leannam1989 Post Number: 103 Registered: 06-2008 |
St. Louis Union Station Pre-Renovation. http://farm1.static.flickr.com /43/74312403_1a1487a2a1.jpg?v= 1139132410 The trainshed now covers the parking. http://farm1.static.flickr.com /37/74312404_feef643d8c.jpg?v= 1139132705 The platforms were removed during renovation. http://farm1.static.flickr.com /43/74312406_582c15543d.jpg?v= 1139133076 http://farm1.static.flickr.com /38/74312407_a118390fe9.jpg?v= 1139133287 http://farm1.static.flickr.com /38/74312408_ec4162f735.jpg?v= 1139133378 I don't know if it had the extent of damage that MCS has. Union Station was abandoned about 7 years, I think, not like 20. MCS being so big may prohibit what it can be developed into, I would think. It's still kind of a train station, in the fact that MetroLink stops at it. But it's mostly a mall now. | ||
Sean_of_detroit Member Username: Sean_of_detroit Post Number: 2166 Registered: 03-2008 |
Representatives for the company that owns the station have proposed redevelopment plans in the past, with no luck. I would guess that if you include making the owner money, and good publicity, you might get somewhere. You don't necessarily have to own the property. Developers will sometimes redevelop properties under a development contract. Also, don't believe everything you hear about anyone. People love to talk about people, without knowing them personally, or knowing all the facts. I'm not saying they are not true either, I'm just saying that maybe you should judge and find out for yourself. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 5193 Registered: 10-2003 |
Does MCS have any sort of state or federal historic designation? | ||
Busterwmu Member Username: Busterwmu Post Number: 571 Registered: 09-2004 |
It is on the National Register of Historc Places, under the name Penn Central Station, because that is what it was called when it was so designated: MI Wayne Penn Central Station 2405 W. Vernor St. Detroit Designated 1975-04-16 It is also listed on the Michigan State Register of Historic Places: Michigan Central Railroad Detroit Station 2405 West Vernor Street, Detroit - Wayne County Other Names Penn Central Station Property Type railroad depot Historic Use TRANSPORTATION Current Use TRANSPORTATION Style Beaux Arts Architect/Builder Charles A. Reed Warren and Wetmore Narrative Description - The Michigan Central Railroad Detroit Station is an I-shaped, sixteen-story Beaux Arts railway passenger station and office building. The entire structure is supported by a steel-frame faced with limestone. A 100-foot tall entrance pavilion topped by a hip-roof, set into the recessed I-form fronts the building, flanked by subsidiary wings extending the width of the facade. The elaborate pavilion features three massive, full-height arch windows topped by ornate Beaux Arts pediments, flanked by paired Corinthian columns. Other details include garlands, scroll bandcourses, shields, and heavily ornamented tympanums. The subsidiary wings feature tall arch windows and balustraded shed-roofs. The sixteen-story section of the structure is dominated by windows divided by fluted piers and features little ornament other than a balcony at the fourteenth floor and brackets supporting the overhanging hip-roof. Statement of Significance - The Michigan Central Railroad Station was Detroit's main mass transit point of entry, an elaborate structure that was the world's highest at the time of its construction in 1913. The building was designed by the firm of Warren & Westmore (the team that designed New York City's Grand Central Station) with the firm of Reed & Stern. The cost of the grand station surpassed $2,500,000, and its design was one of the most elaborate in the nation. Closed in 1986, the station is currently vacant and heavily damaged. Period of Significance 1901-1930 Significant Date(s) 1923 1913 Registry Type(s) 04/16/1975 National Register listed 09/17/1974 State Register listed Site ID# P25201 | ||
Cman710 Member Username: Cman710 Post Number: 519 Registered: 07-2006 |
Sean, I agree with you, which is why I am thinking of writing a letter, as you said. While I could not say that Maroun is perfect, it is worth it to give him a chance and work with him, since he really holds the key to everything right now. I think any kind of plan would have to include something helpful for him, and I am very aware of that. I will think things through more before writing my letter, but I think it is worth something. | ||
Scooter2k7 Member Username: Scooter2k7 Post Number: 157 Registered: 10-2007 |
I think before you make a plan for the Depot you have to wait and see what is going to happen to the Tiger Stadium land. If they knock down the remaining section and builds homes, townhomes, condos, whatever there, then I think the MCS becomes a marketplace. With Corktown, Mexicantown, and now a neighboorhood on Tiger Stadium, you could have the MCS serve the area. And I am not talking about some little shops. Stores would move in there that would serve the area. ie Meijer or Walmart, Target, Home Depot or Lowes. I know that Detroit hates big boxes and we all know that they were created by the Devil. But they serve a purpose. And that is what the MCS should become, something that would serve a purpose to the area in which it is in. Or we could let rot away for another 20 years. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 5211 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: I understand your intent, but frankly, that shit can be built anywhere. MCS is a historic structure that has valuable transportation infrastructure associated with it. There are plenty of empty lots available for big box shopping. | ||
Scooter2k7 Member Username: Scooter2k7 Post Number: 158 Registered: 10-2007 |
I understand the history involved, I really do, but seriously what is the alternative? True, big boxes can be built anywhere, but the city has let the building sit for 20 years. What would be better on that land for the city, a bunch of big boxes that create jobs and pay taxes or an old, abandoned, out of date building that serves as a symbol for Detroit's downfall? I am all for saving history, but not at the expense of the present. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 5223 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: What would be better on that land--an beautiful, historic, abandoned buliding that can be renovated, returned to the tax rolls, and serve as the hub of a 21st Century transportation network? Or a shit-tastic clusterfuck of cheap suburban buildings and parking lots that MIGHT last 10 years? | ||
D_mcc Member Username: D_mcc Post Number: 1610 Registered: 12-2007 |
I like a shit-tastic clusterfuck as much as the next guy... But I think we should keep the building...Someday MM will die...and a developer that wants to bring back a gem will do so. Think the Book Cadillac... | ||
Cman710 Member Username: Cman710 Post Number: 527 Registered: 07-2006 |
Does anyone know what entity owns the building? Is it the Ambassador Bridge Company? I doubt Maroun holds it in his personal capacity. | ||
Lowell Moderator Username: Lowell Post Number: 5152 Registered: 09-2003 |
Very nice and thoughtful thread Buster! My plan, now that Moroun's protector KK sits in jail, is to reverse bribe city inspectors to slap deserved violations on Moroun and hold his Ambassador properties in escrow until he de-blights the building and brings it up to code. Okay, I am engaging in reveries, but it just annoys me to no end that this slumlord with his billion plus in wealth gets pass on these blatant violations and eyesore. Why? | ||
Fishtoes2000 Member Username: Fishtoes2000 Post Number: 727 Registered: 06-2005 |
It'd make a nice looking Google Datacenter. | ||
Burnsie Member Username: Burnsie Post Number: 1536 Registered: 11-2003 |
For those who want to write letters, Moroun's main company is Centra, Inc. Its address is 12225 Stephens Rd., Warren, MI 48089. Ambassador Bridge Management, Inc. is another one of his companies headquartered at that address. | ||
Ct_alum Member Username: Ct_alum Post Number: 22 Registered: 10-2008 |
Didn't know that Moroun owned it......that explains why Kwame was so hot to turn it into the new DPD headquarters - Kickbacks for all! | ||
Busterwmu Member Username: Busterwmu Post Number: 575 Registered: 09-2004 |
Lowell, thanks for the good words. I knew if I wanted to post such a plan and not get thrown overboard for any number of various reasons, I'd have to do some research and think it through from several angles. I am proud to see that I'm not the only one who agrees we don't need to resort to the "tear that schitt down" mentality. I think there are a few important keys which we hold here: 1- If we were to attempt a reuse project, for transit and adaptive reuse (think office tower), we would not be sailing into uncharted waters. All of the other projects I and others have mentioned involving reuse of old train terminals have laid a groundwork of several options and paths we can follow. 2- The office tower could realistically be a saving grace for MC. By having that space available to rent for a profit, it gives an important boost to the financial side of such a plan. 3- Since the city is currently mulling over Cobo and Illitch has his eye on the future of the Joe, a downtown commuter terminal may just be possible, as I said earlier, an important cog in the reuse of MC and shot in the arm transit may need in our city. Just summorizing some thoughts on this late and windy Saturday night. | ||
Jtf1972 Member Username: Jtf1972 Post Number: 79 Registered: 08-2008 |
Nice plan. I have felt something similar should be done with it for a while. I travel quite a bit by train. Washington's Union Station and Kansas City's Union Station are excellent examples of what can be done with MCS (not to even get into GCS!) I've thought however, that due to the current lack of train traffic an excellent solution would be to house both Amtrak and Greyhound in MCS, making it the transit hub for Detroit. Commuter rail could go to Ann Arbor via Metro Airport, making it unnecessary to drive from Detroit to these popular destinations. There is plenty of land for short and long-term parking structures. MCS could be the real key to development in Detroit. To increase the amount of importance, I would propose however that instead of returning the office building towering above the station to office use that the building could be gutted and rebuilt for retail use. Then one of the most visible building in the city could become that elusive mall that the city has needed forever, and it wouldn't have to be built to conform to suburban standards! The Manhattan Mall in NYC at Herald Square is an example of what could be done. The visibility would entice anybody driving down I-75 to head to Michigan Central Mall, plus the $$$ from retail would be something that would make the project more viable than office space could ever do. I cannot imagine NYC allowing GCS to rot away like Detroit has MCS. Is there no legal standing that can be made to wrestle properties such as this away from owners who have no intention of doing anything with a property? The city can cite a homeowner with no money for allowing a property to fall into disrepair, yet a multi-millionare (or billionare) is allowed to destroy landmarks, areas and cities for speculatory purposes (or whatever the hell it is that they let things rot for.) | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 5224 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: Retail (including restaurants) could very well be an important component of the project. In Union Station, as you mentioned, the leased retail space helps support operation of the facility. On the other hand, there must be enough pedestrian traffic to support the businesses. This works well in Washington, where there are a lot of departures and arrivals from intercity and commuter rail, as well as the adjacent Metro station. As you stated, though, in Detroit, you would likely need to draw a lot of "outside" traffic (in other words, deliberate trips) to support retail. Given the current retailing environment, as well as the general decline of mall retailing, I don't necessarily see this happening without difficulty--at least until passenger rail becomes more developed in Detroit. Other factors to consider are that retail customers aren't likely to ride an elevator 20 stories up to shop at a store, and that office space generally leases at higher rates than retail space. If you rely on "deliberate" trips, you're suddenly entering the realm of constructing parking garages at $15,000-$20,000 per space. New York almost *did* let Grand Central Terminal go to pot in the 1960s. Ironically, the near-sighted demolition of Penn Station caused such an uproar that the modern preservation movement was created. Because of the financial difficulties of the railroads at that time, it was reasonable to assume that Grand Central was next for demolition. There are methods that the general public can use for a structure of MCS's historical significance. It has been posted that MCS already has historic designation, so this would keep the structure from being outright demolished. For preserving the structure, though, Detroit would need to create some sort of incentive/penalty mechanism to coerce Maroun to renovate or sell the building, such as a tiered property tax rate. For example, the District of Columbia taxes vacant properties at approximately 10 times the rate as inhabited properties. Pennsylvania has a property tax system that assesses rates based not on the use of the structure, but the value of the land beneath it. Of course, Maroun is the obvious roadblock, and until he has some sort of financial incentive, positive or negative, to do something with the property, it will likely continue to sit empty. | ||
Rob_in_warren Member Username: Rob_in_warren Post Number: 147 Registered: 11-2007 |
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11 /20/nyregion/20thennow.html?hp How about a then and now for MCS? | ||
Cman710 Member Username: Cman710 Post Number: 548 Registered: 07-2006 |
In that picture, it is very easy to see that the far staircase was added during the renovation, even though it looks identical to the original. The designers actually made the staircase a few inches different in placement or size so that future archaeologists would know the staircase was not original. |
