 
Fareastsider
Member
Username: Fareastsider
Post Number: 1016
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, October 30, 2008 - 1:38 pm: |    |
The pretentious attitude of I LIVE in the city and EVERYTHING is fine now and those who dont live here have no opinion on things especially when its bad is nauseating. Detroitnerd your textbook explanations are just part of the problem of why people left. There are many personal and safety related issues as to why people left. Even if somebody has a negative view of the city they still have and opinion and view to the condition of things in the city. Detroit offers the best and worst of the region at the far ends of each spectrum. To say that he feels safe on his porch or to walk his block does not mean that you cant do that ANYWHERE in Detroit but the facts are that in most parts of the city one would not freely stroll at night as they would in other communities. |
Detroitnerd
Member
Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 3523
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, October 30, 2008 - 1:40 pm: | |
Fareast: Straw man much? Nice of you to try to build a caricature of my argument and then rip it apart with such fervor. Very entertaining. Now read what I wrote carefully and respond to that.  |
Fareastsider
Member
Username: Fareastsider
Post Number: 1017
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, October 30, 2008 - 1:52 pm: | |
Glad I could entertain im here all day! My first sentance was not accurate to your points but its a frustration that drives me nuts with people in the city. |
Higgs1634
Member
Username: Higgs1634
Post Number: 722
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, October 30, 2008 - 1:54 pm: | |
BuyAmerican- Why don't you live in Detroit?
Buyamerican's answer-
quote:I live in a community where I don't have to worry that someone will set fire to my house or garage or rubbish or car. It's not a perfect community by any means, but I am not afraid to sit on my porch at night or walk around the block.
Buyamerican's question to anyone that will listen:
"WHAT YOU DRIVE, DRIVES AMERICA" If you live in Michigan why aren't you buying an AMERICAN car!?!?!??!?
Everyone that has refused to buy a Domestic responds:
quote: I drive a car where I don't have to worry that it will spontaneously set fire, fall apart, leak oil all over my garage because some UAW worker making twice my salary didn't feel like doing his job that day. It's not a perfect car by any means, but I am not afraid to rely on it and drive it for 5-10 years or 100,000+ miles.
yet the irony is lost. |
Detroitnerd
Member
Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 3526
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, October 30, 2008 - 2:02 pm: | |
Fareast: Yeah, it's not perfect by a long shot. But I find that the set of problems my neighborhood throws my way are preferable to the problems of supposedly "nicer" neighborhoods. FWIW. |
Tkshreve
Member
Username: Tkshreve
Post Number: 648
Registered: 07-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, October 30, 2008 - 2:40 pm: | |
Quote:
By the 1970s, the only people who remained were die-hard city folk or poor folks. Everybody who moved out, starting in the 1950s, must have known that bad days awaited the city. Revenues were falling, costs were rising, jobs were leaving. But these were great days for Detroit's suburbs, which felt insulated from urban problems.
Sorry Detroitnerd,
While your historical recollection of Detroit's woes may be accurate, your assumption of and on behalf of flighters is not. No more could they predict the future of the Detroit proper than we could predict the financial meltdown were seeing today. Hindsight is always 20/20. The initial wave of flighters left to acquire land and status. It was aided by the government and state, and spurned by the shifting demographics of the city. But no one predicted where we would be today. Back then the mentality of people was the city will just continue to manufacture, grow, and fill in the gaps. I don't think our mentality allowed us to predict the end of the industrialization age as we know it. Capacities have been met in this world and growth is no longer a given. It is an award (some may differ) for properly run cities with services and order. |
Detroitnerd
Member
Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 3527
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, October 30, 2008 - 3:03 pm: | |
Hey, when people of means move OUT of the city, what's going to happen to the city? I'm saying that the city we were left with at the end of the 1990s was the direct result of people of means leaving it. And so, when people who've left start dumping on the city, saying the people who live there ought to be ashamed, my crap detector starts buzzing like crazy. And the point is that Detroit is what it is not just because of the people who left it, but because of a region that has fractured small governments who feel they don't have to address urban ills because it's not their problem. If anything, Detroit should be an example of why we need true regional government and people who don't want to run away from problems and then blame the problem's victims. Poor people don't have the same choices other people do. The people with the greatest means are the ones who get to make the choices, and the choices people have had are this: Don't want problems? Save your pennies and move out of that hell-hole so that only the REAL losers live there. Then you can join us in the great complaining about what THEY have done to OUR city.
IMHO, of course. |
Bearinabox
Member
Username: Bearinabox
Post Number: 1001
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, October 30, 2008 - 4:05 pm: | |
Well, I think your HO is spot on. |
Bragaboutme
Member
Username: Bragaboutme
Post Number: 556
Registered: 02-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, October 30, 2008 - 4:12 pm: | |
The thing is, Chrysler is about to do to Auburn hills what they did to Highland Park. The amount of loss that is about to happen in the Suburbs is about to trickle into the whole surrounding area. Highland Park is supposedly where Devils' Night started. Some need to learn from the history of this area to see why Detroit has the problems it has. Angels' Night needs to be looked at from a community stand point, and the fact that we are coming together even suburban communities are coming to help the City on these nights.
I remember Devils Night and the feeling in 84' even though I was just 7 years old. I remember there were alot of prominent people still living in the City proper. There are still to this day believe it or not more than just poor and working class. I agree it is way better than the 80's, but there are still pockets of the City where crime isn't out of control but still a problem. The difference I remember from that time is race relations, they are way better today than back then. There is alot of positive focus on Detroit and I'm definitely not embarrassed about that.
I think Angels' Night is a good thing for Detroit, not an embarrassment. |
Tkshreve
Member
Username: Tkshreve
Post Number: 651
Registered: 07-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, October 30, 2008 - 4:53 pm: | |
Quotes:
"And the point is that Detroit is what it is not just because of the people who left it, but because of a region that has fractured small governments who feel they don't have to address urban ills because it's not their problem."
"Well, I think your HO is spot on."
As long as your HO passes no blame on to the current residents of city. A rather obtuse way of framing the issue.
I will not give a hall pass to the droves of people who abandoned the city and the subsidies that made that flight possible. They have their hand in the cookie jar.
But what about the city residents? What about their inability root out corruption and crime? What about the fact that they continue to vote into office people who would rather take advantage of the city and its residents? What about the no-snitch policies that the city folk abide by so religiously? And the littering, it's everywhere. There is so much more here than meets the eye. Unfortunately, by not assuming any responsibility for the current conditions, you will only cast the city into a deeper hole than it already is. |
Detroitnerd
Member
Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 3528
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, October 30, 2008 - 4:55 pm: | |
TK: I said there's plenty of shame for all to share. Didn't I? |
Detroitnerd
Member
Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 3529
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, October 30, 2008 - 5:01 pm: | |
I think we perhaps expect too much from poor people, though. I've heard that the definition of poverty in this country is "not having the same choices available to others." So, when people can't choose where they live, what job they want, what car they want, what school they want, they're supposed to be able to change things? I find that hard to accept. In my opinion, it's the people of means who really get to choose how society is ordered, and I find it more difficult to blame our poorest people. They just trying to get by, you know? |
Bulletmagnet
Member
Username: Bulletmagnet
Post Number: 1681
Registered: 01-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, October 30, 2008 - 5:24 pm: | |
Buyamerican, what’s wrong here is that the Navy wasn't called in to help put out fires too. And what about some help from our neighbors to the south, Canada? They should have a presence, don’t you think? And I'd like to see the Shriners on those little motorcycles keeping an eye on things, along with the Detroit Zoo monkeys on their bikes tagging along with them. Let’s not forget about the culprit in all this mess: the Suburbanites! Yes, they started this Devil’s night rioting in the first place and should now be called upon to help put an end to it. Barack Obama could get the rich folk to pay for the rebuilding of Detroit after Devil’s Night is over, that way the po’ folk will have something to burn down next year.
Gun safety tip of the day: To safely check if your handgun is unloaded, simply look down the barrel and pull the trigger. |
Crumbled_pavement
Member
Username: Crumbled_pavement
Post Number: 585
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, October 30, 2008 - 5:40 pm: | |
quote:Originally posted by Buyamerican:
In 1984 the City of Detroit was hit the hardest by arson fires on Devils Night. After Coleman Young saw how bad that looked for him and his administration, the powers that be decided that from then on they wouldn't count rubbish fires, vacant home fires, car fires. That's how the count went down.
For the last 20 years Angels Night has not been peaceful and quiet, ask any Detroit Fire Department firefighter about tonight and they will tell you. Also, the numbers that the City has given the press the next day don't match the fires.
What should the Detroit community be ashamed of? They should be ashamed that they have to band together, get thousands of people on the streets with two-way radios and flashlights, get the National Guard and every other agency out to help prevent arson fires (this isn't happening in other communities)...and, if they are going to band together, be active in the community, unify themselves get together; whatever, do it every day and night to prevent drive-bys, school shootings, robberies, gang activity. Why just tonight and tomorrow? Aren't all of the above common occurences EVERY day in Detroit?
For those of you with your heads in the sand, remember....in five years thug KK will run for office again and I'm sure you'll put him back in office for a third term.
Where is the outrage?
I think you answered your own question. You ask people who you basically describe as having no morals, values, work ethic, or hope and then ask why they are not outraged? That's like asking why a woodpecker isn't outraged that it's pecking up a tree. I mean, if your assessment of Detroiters is accurate, that's a dumb question. |
Buyamerican
Member
Username: Buyamerican
Post Number: 842
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, October 30, 2008 - 8:19 pm: | |
"Hey, when people of means move OUT of the city, what's going to happen to the city? I'm saying that the city we were left with at the end of the 1990s was the direct result of people of means leaving it."
Hey, Detroitnerd....when are people going to start taking responsibility for their own actions, huh? I left in 1993 after living in Detroit for my entire life. I left my home in perfect condition...why was it a mess a year later? I didn't create that, someone else did. People move in and out of cities every day.
Take responsibility for your own actions and stop blaming others when you have no answers.
Are you related to thug KK? |
Mayor_sekou
Member
Username: Mayor_sekou
Post Number: 2686
Registered: 09-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, October 30, 2008 - 8:24 pm: | |
Just a lunchbox full of frustration. |
Buyamerican
Member
Username: Buyamerican
Post Number: 843
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, October 30, 2008 - 8:54 pm: | |
" Fareast: Yeah, it's not perfect by a long shot. But I find that the set of problems my neighborhood throws my way are preferable to the problems of supposedly "nicer" neighborhoods. FWIW."
What could you possibly find preferable in Detroit over a "nicer" neighborhood? Be honest. |
River_rat
Member
Username: River_rat
Post Number: 361
Registered: 02-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, October 30, 2008 - 9:01 pm: | |
Condolences to BuyAmerican for expressing an opinion that was well reasoned and, I assume, sincere. Don't expect reason in return, BA, the world has changed. If an opinion is contrary to another individual's thought, then you respond with invictive. Take a look at our current political campaigns.
Sorry. |
Ericdetfan
Member
Username: Ericdetfan
Post Number: 295
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, October 30, 2008 - 10:38 pm: | |
somebodys f'in around. Half of dowriver is without power. |
Lmichigan
Member
Username: Lmichigan
Post Number: 6385
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 30, 2008 - 10:39 pm: | |
As someone already said, perhaps his opinion would have been on spot and poignant 20 years ago. Today? Yeah, not so much. Yeah, because everyone should be receptive and supportive to Buy shitting on a community coming together for a noble cause.
Angel's Night is so far removed from simply responding to Devil's Night it's not even funny. It's become a positive tradition. No, he should be ashamed, if anyone's to be ashamed, for taking the one time the community mass mobilizes to take back the night, and turning it into a night to chide and malign Detroiters.
Shame on your, Buy.
How's that invictive taste, Rat? |
Buyamerican
Member
Username: Buyamerican
Post Number: 844
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, October 30, 2008 - 11:10 pm: | |
^^^Wrong, and again, hopeless. Using words like "receptive" and "supportive", "noble cause" sounds good doesn't it? Truthfully, tell me why does it takes an army of people on this night and tomorrow night to keep thugs from running rampant and burning a once vibrant City to the ground. Is there any thought of hurting innocent people? Is there any thought of a firefighter getting hurt or killed? None whatsoever. The pranks of putting peanut butter on doorknobs or turning over garbage cans have turned into senseless rampages. The irony of it all is that these stupid thugs will burn the very neighborhoods they live in. They will burn the stores they have been going to for years, just for the fun of it.
This is not normal behavior.
Save your "invective" for those who need it, not the ones in the know. |
6nois
Member
Username: 6nois
Post Number: 743
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, October 30, 2008 - 11:18 pm: | |
Angel's Night is a huge success, so much so that Saginaw has replicated the same methods to take care of their devil's night problem. |
Barnesfoto
Member
Username: Barnesfoto
Post Number: 5528
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 30, 2008 - 11:49 pm: | |
"In 1984 the City of Detroit was hit the hardest by arson fires on Devils Night"
I remember that night, as well as the following years. Besides the repulsive behavior by a handful of city residents, I remember that there were many cases of arson by suburban slumlords who wanted to get rid of their properties, collect the insurance money and conveniently blame it all on the "natives".
There was even a case of a suburban "volunteer" who was caught setting fire to a house near me on Scotten Ave....turns out the guy was a firefighter wannabe and wanted to make himself look important.
He forgot to notice that the neighbors were watching the house.
But don't let reality disrupt your demonization of Detroiters, as you sit on your ass typing and waggling your finger at "them". |
Gumby
Member
Username: Gumby
Post Number: 1857
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 30, 2008 - 11:54 pm: | |
quote:I'm not embarrassed, that to me sounds like a community banding together for a common cause. Actually I'm proud of the amount of support. I just think it should be year round.
You mean community Organization is a good thing?
|
Wolverine
Member
Username: Wolverine
Post Number: 636
Registered: 04-2004
| | Posted on Friday, October 31, 2008 - 12:10 am: | |
Just drove down Davison Ave between the Lodge and 96. In that stretch I must have seen over 100 vehicles with flashing orange lights.
I'm very impressed with the effort. |
Limafin
Member
Username: Limafin
Post Number: 27
Registered: 01-2007
| | Posted on Friday, October 31, 2008 - 12:27 am: | |
I thought Devil's night was on the 31st... |
Reddog289
Member
Username: Reddog289
Post Number: 670
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Friday, October 31, 2008 - 3:50 am: | |
I loved sitting on the porch on Lafayette, and later Lexington watching every vehicle the city could muster[1950,s era street sweepers etc] keeping the city safe on Devils Night back in the 90,s yet 10 years earlier I feared for the safety of my Grandparents, Uncles and anyone else I knew who lived in Detroit. I too like many posters Hate to see the places in which they grew up Burned out, empty lots every where, But thats the way it is. As I have said before my whole life I have heard from my Parents, Aunts, Uncles, and others how great Detroit was. I now know what they mean, I would not want to live in a city where my tax dollar is not spent wisely. Where the Mayor is in constant trouble with the law, Where it,s people like Cub have to basically rebuild their own block, AND when they do put out the trash the city says they don,t want to take it? Thats a reason to be embarrassed, I can say that I would be. |
Buyamerican
Member
Username: Buyamerican
Post Number: 845
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Friday, October 31, 2008 - 8:43 am: | |
Barn...when you speak of one or two slumlords, and don't leave out those who lived in the City... (I see you are quick to "type" in suburban ones), burning their properties in comparison to hundreds of fires, the stats don't add up. You can shift the blame wherever you want to but the outcome is the same. Incidentally, I've never used the word "natives" in any of my posts, that's your thing.
"But don't let reality disrupt your demonization of Detroiters, as you sit on your ass typing and waggling your finger at "them"." ...
Where were you when you were sitting on your ass typing your post?
(Message edited by Buyamerican on October 31, 2008) |
Noggin
Member
Username: Noggin
Post Number: 106
Registered: 09-2004
| | Posted on Friday, October 31, 2008 - 9:01 am: | |
"Council should pass a law that anyone caught tonight or tomorrow night setting a fire or breaking into a home or business will get 5 years, period; no appeals,
How about if thats that standard no matter what day it is?"
At least Acorn can still get them registered to vote. |
Masterblaster
Member
Username: Masterblaster
Post Number: 226
Registered: 03-2005
| | Posted on Friday, October 31, 2008 - 10:27 am: | |
I can understand Buyamerican's point. It should not take the mobilization of all those different forces to keep the neighborhoods from getting torched by the anti-social wackos.
It reflects poorly on the city that so many are willing to burn our neighborhoods down that it would require SO much policing.
HOWEVER,
Buyamerican gives the excuse in response to Detroitnerd - "well people move in and out of cities all the time". Well, in Detroit, there are 20 times as many people moving out as there are moving in - and its been like that for a long time - And this makes Detroit different from all other cities.
No one is willing to stick around and fix the problems - the good people have ALLOWED the bad people to "drive" them out. |