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Archive through November 04, 2008Bike4beer30 11-04-08  12:59 pm
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Mikeg
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Username: Mikeg

Post Number: 2085
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Tuesday, November 04, 2008 - 1:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Windmills split town and families - Fallout from green energy; 'Is it worth destroying a whole way of life?'

Video of the wind turbines that are the subject of the above article.
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Wkl
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Username: Wkl

Post Number: 135
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Tuesday, November 04, 2008 - 1:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Nobody seems to want to live around wind farms. Those things are noisy.

I've seen wind farms in CA and WY are out in the middle of nowhere.
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Professorscott
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Username: Professorscott

Post Number: 1676
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Posted on Tuesday, November 04, 2008 - 2:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The problem with all energy everywhere, except maybe solar. Nobody wants to live near an oil refinery, coal-fired electric plant, hydroelectric plant, nuclear plant or windfarm. But we all want cheap power.

Everybody wants a freeway, power plant and landfill, but nobody wants to live near any of them.
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Bike4beer
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Username: Bike4beer

Post Number: 23
Registered: 09-2008
Posted on Tuesday, November 04, 2008 - 2:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

How about a wind farm on top of a landfill. Kill two birds with one stone :-)
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Jams
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Post Number: 9587
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Posted on Tuesday, November 04, 2008 - 2:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

... or along railway and freeway right-of-ways?
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Zrx_doug
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Username: Zrx_doug

Post Number: 784
Registered: 03-2008
Posted on Tuesday, November 04, 2008 - 2:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Killing birds is another of the issues with windmills..those big humungous majestic looking blades that look like they're swooshing around so gracefully are actually moving REALLY fast. Tip speeds are measured in hundreds of MPH..tends to really screw up the day for any migratory boids that are dumb enough to cross their path.

Oh, and for the record, I'd live next door to a nuclear power plant before I would a wind farm..noise is way more annoying than uninformed hysteria is.
:-)
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Bike4beer
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Post Number: 24
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Posted on Tuesday, November 04, 2008 - 2:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Figured that would open the bird door. I have heard the arguments of birds and wind mill farms. there are many more dangers faced by birds not sure if a wind farm would likely make any species reach the point of extinction. Glass windows are dangerous for birds but I wouln't want to do away with them. I am not saying wind farms should be put right in the middle of a known migration path either.

uninformed hysteria is more entertaining as well :-)
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Zrx_doug
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Username: Zrx_doug

Post Number: 785
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Posted on Tuesday, November 04, 2008 - 3:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Canadian Geese.
Can ya think of any bird dumber? I can picture a flock of 'em meandering across the river right thru a windfarm, and is there anywhere in Michigan that's NOT on their migratory route?
..on the upside, this would inevitably lead to less goose shit in the parks.
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Retroit
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Username: Retroit

Post Number: 420
Registered: 04-2008
Posted on Tuesday, November 04, 2008 - 3:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What's wrong with this picture? Have we so given up on the possibility of people actually living in this city that we now want to turn it into a wind farm? How about building HOUSES?
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Ltorivia485
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Username: Ltorivia485

Post Number: 3186
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Posted on Tuesday, November 04, 2008 - 3:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Detroit does NOT need Windfarms. Those things are noisy, polluted, and dangerous. Detroit needs HOMES. Not unnecessary crap.
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Bike4beer
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Username: Bike4beer

Post Number: 25
Registered: 09-2008
Posted on Tuesday, November 04, 2008 - 3:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

for the record i think wind farms in the city are a bad idea too. wind farms in general are a good (not great) idea. Also. Detroit needs people more then homes. Homes are useless if no one is going to live in them. I would think there is enough available housing at the moment.
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Zrx_doug
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Username: Zrx_doug

Post Number: 786
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Posted on Tuesday, November 04, 2008 - 3:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dead-on, Bike4beer (I also like the handle, BTW)..since people aren't exactly rushing in to fill the city, how 'bout we fill the empty lots with plain ol' FARMS, hold the wind?
Amber waves of grain & what-not..pretty easy to plow it back under and build on top of it if/when the people ever come back, and it'd sure look nicer than what we've got now..
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Retroit
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Username: Retroit

Post Number: 430
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Posted on Tuesday, November 04, 2008 - 5:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

We have more choices than windfarms and "what we've got now". One of the reason people aren't "rushing in" is because there is nothing to rush in to. The housing stock in Detroit is in terrible condition and must be rebuilt.
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Bike4beer
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Username: Bike4beer

Post Number: 26
Registered: 09-2008
Posted on Tuesday, November 04, 2008 - 6:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Build it and they will come worked for a bit but now there seems to be a glut of new housing that is sitting vacant or being converted to other uses. I am sure that with the state of the economy and housing market hasn't helped but I am not sure if it the only reason that things are sitting.

Now that I have gone wayyyyyyyyyyyyy off topic for this thread.

I am sure this horse has been beat enough
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Retroit
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Username: Retroit

Post Number: 433
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Posted on Tuesday, November 04, 2008 - 7:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The topic is wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy off reality.
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Bike4beer
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Username: Bike4beer

Post Number: 27
Registered: 09-2008
Posted on Tuesday, November 04, 2008 - 7:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

true
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Jams
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Post Number: 9595
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Posted on Tuesday, November 04, 2008 - 7:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Detroit does NOT need Windfarms. Those things are noisy, polluted, and dangerous. Detroit needs HOMES. Not unnecessary crap.



But yet cell phone towers are everywhere.

Passing by John King's building while on the bus yesterday, I noted the number of the antennas(?) filling the roof.

It was that in mind that I made my remark about running wind turbines along railway and freeway right-of-ways.

There is already a lot of noise and the towers would not be taking up land from other development.
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Thegryphon
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Username: Thegryphon

Post Number: 61
Registered: 11-2007
Posted on Friday, November 14, 2008 - 5:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well, for those who say there is not enough wind, i say your an idiot. Did anyone attend the Air Race? They had to CANCEL the first day because of the high winds off the river. Now the Air Races usually take place on OCEANS (eg San Diego) yet they shut down from the River. I am all for more homes, but the fact is there is plenty of vacant land that can be harnessed to produce energy and jobs. There is an abundance of land (I am not sure of the stat. but isn't like aprox. .5 of all land in the city is vacant??). There is little to no demand for residential growth in the neighborhoods, so a wind farm would be used to utilize land.
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Fishtoes2000
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Username: Fishtoes2000

Post Number: 728
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Posted on Friday, November 14, 2008 - 6:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Anyone who attended this year's Rouge 08 would have heard a pitch for a proposed windfarm in an industrial area along the Rouge River.

Windfarms are a working advertisement that says this area is progressive and investing in sustainability. Windfarms can be integrated with college training and employee re-training. Detroit may not have optimal wind, but we can manufacture the equipment for the rest of the world. A windfarm can be worth more than just the power it generates.
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Bike4beer
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Username: Bike4beer

Post Number: 42
Registered: 09-2008
Posted on Friday, November 14, 2008 - 6:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

anyone know of any turbines in the middle of any of the lakes? Lake Erie is shallow and would provide an unobstructed area for better wind speeds.
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Eriedearie
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Username: Eriedearie

Post Number: 3986
Registered: 08-2007
Posted on Friday, November 14, 2008 - 7:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You're on to something Fishtoes...why couldn't the closed up auto factories be retooled to manufacture the necessary equipment. While we're at it, wouldn't it be feasible to affix the roofs of those manufacturing facilities with turbines? The energy harvested could supplement the energy necessary to operate the plant couldn't it?

What better working advertising than having a manufacturing facility be darn near self sufficient as far as electricity goes? Would that be doable?

Just my 2 cents worth.
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Lilpup
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Username: Lilpup

Post Number: 5616
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Posted on Friday, November 14, 2008 - 7:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You don't want them on the roofs. Every place should have a living roof like the Rouge has.

Windmills are nothing new and they don't have to be the behemoths a commercial windfarm has. Virtually every farm used to have it's own windmill. There's no reason (other than zoning perhaps) that facilities can't have them, or hydro turbines if the facility is on a waterway. Why do you think Ford bought up the old mills along the river for his village industries?
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Eriedearie
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Username: Eriedearie

Post Number: 3987
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Posted on Friday, November 14, 2008 - 7:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bike4beer - First studies are encouraging -

http://blog.cleveland.com/busi ness/2008/09/first_studies_enc ouraging_on_l.html
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Lilpup
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Username: Lilpup

Post Number: 5617
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Posted on Friday, November 14, 2008 - 7:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Studies have also been done all along the Michigan shoreline. Michigan ranks 14th for wind potential energy.

http://www.windpoweringamerica .gov/filter_detail.asp?itemid= 2045
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Dalangdon
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Username: Dalangdon

Post Number: 162
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Posted on Friday, November 14, 2008 - 8:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I work for the power company in Seattle. There are new wind generators that are like pylons: they don't have the big blades - they have a vertical chamber that spins in the wind. (I wish I had a better description of how they look. They're pretty cool)

I've only seen them in residential applications, not in in anything big, however.

As far as solar goes, there are some amazing technologies developing that show great promise. If nothing else, there are theories that existing arrays, spread out of the roofs of factories, schools and malls, could not only generate power, but help offset the AC load on those buildings.

We are blessed with abundant hydro here, but even that is adapting: One idea is to float solar arrays on barges behind the dams: minimal impact on fish, and the transmission infrastructure is there already.

I'm excited about all these new developments. It's the one interesting place in what is a very boring industry. :-)
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Lilpup
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Username: Lilpup

Post Number: 5619
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Posted on Friday, November 14, 2008 - 8:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

GM is already using rooftop arrays. They have two installed at California facilities and one in Spain.

Don't know how well that would work in snowy Michigan, though, that's why the living roofs would probably be better here.
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Bobl
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Username: Bobl

Post Number: 200
Registered: 07-2008
Posted on Friday, November 14, 2008 - 11:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There has been little written about hydro turbines, other than the contribution here on another post.
The St Clair and Detroit Rivers might offer some locations.
Do any readers have information on the feasibility of these in the Great Lakes region?
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Lilpup
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Username: Lilpup

Post Number: 5621
Registered: 06-2004
Posted on Saturday, November 15, 2008 - 12:06 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There's this test project that will be associated with the just started port authority dock:

http://www.geni.org/globalener gy/library/technical-articles/ generation/hydro/mcclatchy-tri bune-regional-news/project-to- make-electricity-from-detroit- rivers-flow/index.shtml
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Yupislyr
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Username: Yupislyr

Post Number: 332
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Posted on Saturday, November 15, 2008 - 1:20 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I assume this is something like one of the vertical chamber ones you guys mentioned above: http://www.pacwind.net/images/ Delta-II_lg.jpg

I haven't seen any around here myself but there was a local TV report about some people using them in Metro Detroit. I think it was on WDIV.
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Dalangdon
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Username: Dalangdon

Post Number: 164
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Saturday, November 15, 2008 - 12:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The turbines I've seen are a little bit more enclosed, but that's the general idea.

The only thing that is holding them back right now is problems getting their UL listing. Hopefully, that can be resolved in the near future - or might even be resolved now, and I just haven't heard about it.
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Retroit
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Username: Retroit

Post Number: 468
Registered: 04-2008
Posted on Saturday, November 15, 2008 - 4:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I doubt that people who have the money to build windfarms are going to choose Detroit over the other 99.99999999% of this country.
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Busterwmu
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Username: Busterwmu

Post Number: 576
Registered: 09-2004
Posted on Saturday, November 15, 2008 - 11:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Why not build the windfarm out in Lake St. Clair? There's plenty of breeze out there and the noise might only bother the fish.... or not. It also might decrease the number of illegally immigrating Canadian Geese that arrive at Harper Woods and St. Clair Shores, too.
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Lilpup
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Username: Lilpup

Post Number: 5631
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Posted on Saturday, November 15, 2008 - 11:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Pretty soon we might need those geese for dinner.
I found it interesting that one of the newspapers expressed surprise that so many more were expected to go hunting this year 'despite the bad economy.' I guess the reporter never made the connection between hunting and a lot of relatively free food for the winter.

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