  Danny Member Username: Danny Post Number: 7904 Registered: 02-2004 |
What would happen to Detroit and suburbs after the Ford, Chrysler and GM dies? Will our family and friends leave Michigan to find new jobs. Will there be crime and violence? Will our leaders deliver the money to save the Big three from going dead broke? So many questions, but I hope there is light after this economic crisis. Any thoughts? | ||
Crumbled_pavement Member Username: Crumbled_pavement Post Number: 593 Registered: 08-2007 |
What would happen to Detroit and suburbs after the Ford, Chrysler and GM dies? Those companies won't die, they will transform. Either some or all will be bought out by other companies, merge, or restructure under bankruptcy. In any event, while these companies will still exist, there will be extremely painful job cuts. That will be devastating to Metro Detroit and Michigan as a whole. Will our family and friends leave Michigan to find new jobs. They already are and at record numbers. I fully expect the outward migration to continue. Will there be crime and violence? There already is crime and violence and always will be. The question is will governments in Michigan be able to fight crime effectively with diminished tax revenues. Municipalities in Michigan are going to have to become more creative and efficient in the next decade or there will be an increase in crime. Will our leaders deliver the money to save the Big three from going dead broke? Especially with Democratic control over the three branches of government and the powerful impact the Detroit auto makers have on the economy, jobs, and tax revenue I fully expect a bail out package to be offered to them. So many questions, but I hope there is light after this economic crisis. Any thoughts? The future global economy and American economy should rebound in the next couple of years. Recessions are just part of the economic cycle. Michigan's economy, however, probable won't level off until the population dwindles down so that it is on par with the job opportunities in this state. | ||
Buyamerican Member Username: Buyamerican Post Number: 862 Registered: 02-2007 |
It would be devastating to Detroit, Michigan AND the U.S.A. if the Big 3 died. Also, the ripple effect from their demise would be just as devastating to the small businesses that supply parts to the Big 3. Incidentally, quite a few of these smaller businesses that have depended on the auto industry for their business also supply parts to foreign automakers as well. The entire U.S. does not realize the ramifications of losing the Big 3, but because of some peoples' perceptions that foreign was better, the Big 3 is suffering the consequences. Some people blame the Big 3 for getting themselves into this situation, and in some respects they are probably right, but one thing is for certain...they are a major employer for U.S. jobs and if they go away, so do the jobs. Maybe those that bought Hondas or Toyotas can go to those companies and ask for a handout since they were loyal to them instead of being loyal to the Big 3 who (even making errors in judgement as times) have supported Detroit, Michigan and the U.S.A. Jobs will be just as difficult to find in other cities throughout the U.S. Yes, there will more likely be more crime and violence because there are certain individuals out there who will take advantage of any situation and want to take what is not theirs. Those are my thoughts. God help us all. There are those out there who don't like the slogans that I sometimes leave at the end of my postings, but they are truer today than ever before. I am afraid it's too late for hundreds of thousands of working people today. WHAT YOU DRIVE, DRIVES AMERICA! OUT OF A JOB YET? KEEP BUYING FOREIGN! | ||
Ggores Member Username: Ggores Post Number: 477 Registered: 10-2007 |
The reults already have been devastating, as Michigan been in a single-state recession for five years now. Should GM go under (it's said that they have enough bucks to burn until June '09), then it would only add to the urgency of Michigan's absolute need to transition towards alternate iindustry's. Hell, we already have the Governess publicly PLEADING, and the leaders of The Three PLEADING, at the steps of Capitol Hill for A LOAN. Even though I've been very vocal in the past about the misguided automotives (going back to 1997 when me and coworkers would absolutely watch in astonishment, wondering how in the hell the then Big Three could be spending SO much money), THE LOAN is essential. But here's the kicker. A Senator goes on television, saying "yes Tom, it ABSOLUTELY will be a loan." In other words, may and mac fucked up so terribly that the National economy was supposedley on the brink of elimination, but that's ok, because they are directly affiliated with political factions, and one hand washes the other, soooooooooo, yes, print up 700 billion bucks for 'em. In the case of "Detroit", yes, they fucked up so bad, and yeah we MIGHT be able to help them out, BUT, we sure do fight with them guys alot over emissions, fuel economy standards, and such. Heh heh. So, it's going to be a great, great obstacle for them to overcome to get so much as a nod of approval from Capitol Hill. What assholes. But one thing is certainly guranteed. Auto Execs are VERY good with numbers. If they borrow money, I bet that their ego's really take a big, big hit. And they'll pay it back, just like Iaccoca. Despite their tendency's to be extravegant and wasteful, the Automotive Industry Executiveship are a proud bunch, because, in no certain order: 1) They build cars 2) They design cars 3) They create jobs, and those jobs create jobs, and the jobs created from the jobs that were created from the jobs they created, create more jobs, and there might even be some further job creation in the advancing Decal manufacturing sector, Tee-shirt printing, marketing, etc. 4) They successfully conduct their business five years ahead of time and are very forward-looking CrumbledPavement pretty much nailed the questions asked. I'm just adding to the "thoughts" part. Until Americans get it straight in their head that it really DOES make a difference where the products we buy come from, then we'll end up being just any other country, which, very unfortunately, many people actually WANT. Washington D.C. STILL doesn't get it either. | ||
Retroit Member Username: Retroit Post Number: 448 Registered: 04-2008 |
If the Big 3 go out of business, Detroit will become a ghost town. We should have listened to Buyamerican! | ||
Melocoton Member Username: Melocoton Post Number: 50 Registered: 01-2008 |
How exactly have the Big Three "supported" Detroit again? | ||
Retroit Member Username: Retroit Post Number: 452 Registered: 04-2008 |
Have you heard of the Auto Industry? | ||
Buyamerican Member Username: Buyamerican Post Number: 863 Registered: 02-2007 |
Melocoton, just in case you are for real...the Big 3 have numerous buildings in the City, including GM's RenCen, Chrysler's Jefferson Plant, and suppliers, all located within the City limits. They pay huge taxes to the City and so do their employees, providing the major source of income for Detroit. They are the highest taxpayers in the City and City employees and retirees should remember that when purchasing their next automobile. FYI, I have never worked for any of the Big 3 but I have worked for the City of Detroit. WHAT YOU DRIVE, DRIVES AMERICA! OUT OF A JOB YET? KEEP BUYING FOREIGN! (Message edited by Buyamerican on November 09, 2008) | ||
Sludgedaddy Member Username: Sludgedaddy Post Number: 211 Registered: 01-2008 |
Does the American Public really need vehicles with heated ash trays or ass warming seats? Nothing quite as useless as one of those Lincoln pick-ups which will never see a load of cow manure hauled in it's bed. It's time to re-tool and build an attractive an functional "People's Car". For example, I drive a 17 yr. old Ford Ranger which runs like a Zulu. I wonder if Ford threw away the mold when they made those babies. You can see many old Rangers of the same vintage as mine still working and going strong. Big Three..get off your ass.. you defeated the Axis Powers with your inventiveness and industrial know how...it's time to do it again. When Henry Ford created his T's enmass, the cheaper and more prolific they got. BuyAmerican.....and fuck Wal-Mart,too! | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 5565 Registered: 06-2004 |
Ford still makes the Ranger but many consumers opt up for the F-150. The new F-150 rollout is what sparked the callback of 1,000 workers at the Rouge. One news article a while ago had Mulally expressing thoughts similar to yours. He noted how one model (Lincoln Navigator?) had over 120 possible different dash or console designs, depending upon the options chosen. That kind of excess was one of the things that surprised him as he learned about the company. Excesses like that are marketing/MBA driven, not engineering driven. | ||
Bratt Member Username: Bratt Post Number: 778 Registered: 01-2004 |
Foreign automobiles did not take American companies down. I have grown up in a family who works for the big three. While I may have reaped the benefits in the past, it was just a matter of time. Reality is, the workers there made excellent money and got helluva benefits. Janitors were making over 6 figures and bragged how they didn't do anything. Just raked in the money. On lunch hour, workers in the parking lot getting drunk and high. The old saying, don't buy an american car that was built on a Monday or Friday. Not saying that these people didn't work hard because I am sure alot of them did and still do. But the economy sucks, there is no way you can keep paying workers these salaries and give them the same benefits. | ||
East_detroit Member Username: East_detroit Post Number: 2279 Registered: 11-2003 |
The old saying and old ways... of the 1970s. Today's companies are lean and producing high quality vehicles. If someone thinks its prestigious to drive something foreign, then I guess that is their short-sighted right. | ||
Luckycar Member Username: Luckycar Post Number: 117 Registered: 02-2007 |
I see a future where I'm selling used Kias,Hondas,Nissans and Toyotas.The former Big 3 stuff will be in the back,the lower end stuff that the driveway mechanic can get parts for at the parts yard for 10 more years.This would suck.Maybe GM will merge with a group of Chinese automakers.Maybe some south american billionaire will take over Ford.Maybe some wealthy american will take over Jeep,running it like a specialty vehicle operation like Shelby or Saleen.And maybe Michigan will revert back to wilderness and become an outdoor destination like Wyoming or Montana,only with lots of water. | ||
Wash_man Member Username: Wash_man Post Number: 1033 Registered: 05-2006 |
"WHAT YOU DRIVE, DRIVES AMERICA! OUT OF A JOB YET? KEEP BUYING FOREIGN!" Just don't buy: Ford Fusion, Crown Vic, Mercury Marquis Chevrolet Equinox, Aveo, Impala, Monte Carlo, Camaro Chrysler 300, Charger, Challenger, Mini-van Buick Lacrosse Pontiac Torrent, G8 Saturn Vue These "American" cars are all built outside of the U.S. I'm sure there are more, I'm going by memory. Check out a Mazda 6 built in Flat Rock! | ||
Buyamerican Member Username: Buyamerican Post Number: 864 Registered: 02-2007 |
Bratt, you're right, foreign automobiles did not take the American companies down....some Americans did. Those that continued to purchase foreign automobiles with the perception that "foreign is better" showed their true colors. Americans whose bread and butter come from the Big 3 or companies that supply the Big 3, either through research and development or supplied parts or lived in this United States and continued to purchase foreign are largely responsible for the demise of the American Car companies. Michiganders especially should have been loyal to American automobiles....and I don't want to hear from the diehards on this forum who keep repeating their same old story that American cars have foreign parts or was built in Canada, because what is the bottom line here? People are losing jobs by the thousands here in Michigan. Most of those are due to job losses from the auto industry. Whatever any of you may have thought about the Big 3 and the things they did or did not do...does it matter right now? Absolutely not! Buy the foreign cars, lose your job...does that make any sense? If you work in Detroit and continue to buy foreign and GM, Chrysler and Ford close their doors... it's your fault. I doubt very much if Honda or Toyota will help any American who is out of work, or help Detroit or Michigan, but Americans sure put a lot of money in their pockets...and believe me, the CEO's got their high salaries and the workers got nothing except a weekly wage, and a low one at that. Bratt...you will have the slackers and lazy bums in any company. The drunks in the parking lot were not common, and I doubt if a janitor made six figures. I remember one guy who worked for Chrysler who, as the years went on and he got more seniority, would boast about how much money he made to do nothing. I resented that very much, and I resented the fact that because of his laziness I probably had to pay a couple of thousand more for a car; but I still bought American because it's American industry that butters our bread. The unions did get greedy in some respects, but when you have CEO's making millions upon millions of dollars then I would think they should share the spoils with their employees. The unions fought for their piece of the pie and made decent wages and got good health care and a nice retirement...why not? 99% of the union workers at the automobile plants were decent, hard working individuals and deserve to be paid well for making a product everyone wanted. Thank God for the union workers and their sacrifices during a strike. They fought for and won many concessions from the companies that we all benefitted from in the long run, even if you worked at a different company; the CEO's listened and many employees got better wages and benefits because of union workers. Had they not fought for workers rights, other union workers wouldn't have had a chance for a better life. You say you have grown up in a family who works for the Big 3 so you know what would happen to perhaps your retired father or mother if they lost their health care or pension. They worked for it, they were promised it, they deserve it. I know many people who have retired from the auto companies, white and blue collar...if they lost their benefits totally or even partially, they would be devastated. I have been, and am still on my soapbox regarding Americans buying American products. It's getting harder and harder to find anything that's made here, but when it's a "for sure" product, like one of the Big 3, even though people say it was built here or there, built with this part or that from foreign countries, it's still AMERICAN and the profits stay in AMERICA! (Message edited by Buyamerican on November 09, 2008) | ||
Mashugruskie Member Username: Mashugruskie Post Number: 196 Registered: 09-2006 |
I just saw an ad for a position in MI today for receptionist. Must have a bachelor's degree and type 45 wpm. 13k per year. I made 13k per year when I was 19 years old....in 1980! It's going to be a very cold winter. | ||
_sj_ Member Username: _sj_ Post Number: 2764 Registered: 12-2003 |
It is not perception, it is reality. Stop making excuses and trying to hide behind your inferiority complex. Don't forget the Billions in tax breaks, Billions in bailouts they have gotten from the taxpayers. Also don't forget the damage they have done to the environment and to the chances in passing laws to help the environment. quote: No they don't. The real problem is, not matters how many times you are told, you still don't believe. It has been told for 40 years the problem and the cracks, but yet you still played blind until it bit you in the ass. What do you do? You blame others and come up with lame ass slogans that are so far from the truth, you can't waddle through the bullshit. You want people to buy american, yet GM broke the record numerous times this decade for most cars sold. So once again it shows it is EXPENSES that are killing the company not WHAT PEOPLE BUY. But keep on believing, hey it worked for the Germans who believed they were winning the war. America lost its spirit and transformed itself. No other country is responsible and we the people who believe in being worker drones and should be exempt from the wage laborers they made themselves are the real problem. Not what people are buying. | ||
Lefty2 Member Username: Lefty2 Post Number: 2804 Registered: 07-2007 |
As Kenneth Galbraith, the harvard 1930 ish libereal economist once said, "in the long run, were all dead". So it's either change or die, sadly. | ||
Chrissy_snow Member Username: Chrissy_snow Post Number: 348 Registered: 07-2008 |
I agree with Bratt. I've worked for the auto industry (in the executive offices) since high school (20+ years) and saw firsthand the ridiculously disgusting salaries the head honchos made while the little people lost jobs, took paycuts, lost benefits, etc. My boss at Ford even lamented to me one day that she knew she made a ridiculous amount of money for what she did and she felt guilty for accepting it. She made nearly 300k a year for managing the HR dept, but the real work was done by the people beneath her. And before she took her cushy buyout, she set up all of her friends on fat independent contracts making 100K and more, to provide "services" to Ford. Years ago, I reported a GM manager who set his friend up to receive millions as a Tier 1 supplier. I know because I worked for him. They did nothing. The exec eventually retired off of his kickback and went on to success elsewhere. The supplier stayed until the work fizzled out, but by then he had collected several million from GM. They turned their head. So now all of a sudden they're claiming they'll go broke if they don't get some of that bailout money the government seems to be handing out. I call BS on that one, but whatever, they didn't ask me. I think its all a crock and even if they get the money they won't be restoring any of the jobs they cut, it'll just be more perks and bonuses for the execs. And Mashugruskie, I know exactly what you mean. I've been laid off for 8 months now, about to exhaust my extended benefits, and the jobs I'm seeing are paying less than half of what I made. I can't live on that!!! I get more than that in unemployment! And I have three degrees! For the first time in my life, I may have to work two jobs and give up precious time with my kids just to pay the bills. If I get an opportunity to get the hell out of Michigan, I'm gone. | ||
Janesback Member Username: Janesback Post Number: 495 Registered: 08-2006 |
If there are people who need jobs, Im not trying to encourage departure from Michigan, but Houston and Galveston Texas are in dire need of construction people, as well as the East Texas Gulf counties and parts of Louisiana Gulf coast cities. Included in that mix are still people rebuilding from Katrina I did see many Michigan and Missouri plates here in Texas in the last couple of weeks. I wish everyone the best and hope with our new President that a healthy economy returns.....Jane | ||
Higgs1634 Member Username: Higgs1634 Post Number: 745 Registered: 10-2005 |
http://freep.com/article/20081 110/BUSINESS01/81110020 quote: "if" can now be replaced with "when". | ||
Fury13 Member Username: Fury13 Post Number: 4188 Registered: 10-2003 |
First of all, US autoworkers are overpaid. Most factory workers shouldn't earn more than about $9 per hour. They are uneducated. They have the same qualifications as a 7-11 employee. Hey, if they want a bigger salary, they need go to college and get a degree. And I'm sorry: if $9 an hour won't feed their families, then, don't have a family. Or, get a second job... or even a third one, if necessary. Also... when are the US automakers going to make a well-built, versatile car (non-hybrid) that gets 40-50 mpg, lasts 200,000 miles with only perfunctory maintenance, and costs less than $16K to purchase? They'd sell a zillion of them... it would be the Model T for the new century. That's what we need now. Instead, Ford and GM still make SUV behemoths, muscle cars, Hummers, and other useless vehicles. Even the American so-called economy cars get dubious fuel economy. Why can't Detroit be the LEADER in fuel efficiency, not a follower? Sorry, I won't buy a mediocre-MPG vehicle just 'cause it's American. No, Detroit needs to make A BETTER PRODUCT. The US automakers are in trouble because they didn't react with new product fast enough to the shift in market trends/demands. It should only take a year or 18 months to gear up and get a new model in production. If they can't do that, I guess they deserve to die. | ||
Danny Member Username: Danny Post Number: 7905 Registered: 02-2004 |
What is Detroit and the suburbs without the Big Three? A ghost town with a big concrete wall all over and freeways blocked off from the open pastures. Maybe Detroit and suburbs may survive without the big three. But more people will be moving out of Michigan and the population will be reduced to under 1,000,000 all over. Detroit will be under 100,000 with lots of vacant and abandon buildings. Maybe the big three might consider doing synergy works. Like making toys, drinks, foods, and any media products. It worked for Coca Cola and Stroh's and Fox Network. Or there's one last hope for them. Either merge with as one American Car Company or merge with those Japanese car companies. | ||
Crumbled_pavement Member Username: Crumbled_pavement Post Number: 594 Registered: 08-2007 |
quote: quote: ^^^Looks like we have someone on this very forum ready to leave Michigan. I'm sure she won't be alone as the economy in Michigan looks bleaker by the day. | ||
Buyamerican Member Username: Buyamerican Post Number: 865 Registered: 02-2007 |
_sj_ "It is not perception, it is reality. Stop making excuses and trying to hide behind your inferiority complex." Too bad you can't post on a thread without insults. You're wrong about reality. "Don't forget the Billions in tax breaks" All major companies in the U.S. get some sort of tax break. "Also don't forget the damage they have done to the environment and to the chances in passing laws to help the environment" Maybe you should rethink that statement. The U.S. has some of the most stringent environmental laws in the world, where China and Japan don't care what goes into their land, waterways, the oceans, or the air. "But keep on believing, hey it worked for the Germans who believed they were winning the war." I advocate buying American...you blame American car companies for what's happening. Where is your allegiance? What I did for a living is of no concern to you _sj_, it's what I believe in that is the concern. I believe in America and what it stands for. You don't, therefore you're mad and you're defensive. Fury13, I'm sure there are a lot of autoworkers out there who would love to meet with you and debate your statements. To insult the working class because of what they do is arrogant...but of course, you may have that document on the wall to show your education and that makes you better...right? WHAT YOU DRIVE, DRIVES AMERICA! OUT OF A JOB YET? KEEP BUYING FOREIGN! (Message edited by Buyamerican on November 10, 2008) | ||
Fury13 Member Username: Fury13 Post Number: 4190 Registered: 10-2003 |
Buyamerican, My education doesn't make me better at all. But I did invest time, energy, money, and discipline to get a degree that, theoretically, allows me more potential upward mobility that the average shlep who simply managed to graduate high school and did not progress beyond that point. I am not insulting the working class. My family is largely working class. Yet... ambition, drive, and training (vocational and/or academic) ought to count for something, my friend. By the way, Buyamerican: being "working class" doesn't make YOU better or more noble, either. And let me just say that for years, I was one of those average shleps. In that phase of my life, I didn't deserve more than $8 or $9 an hour. I hadn't applied myself yet. And, I welcome any debates from autoworkers. Those with specialized training/skills are a different story, however. My remarks refer to the typical unskilled line worker. | ||
Fury13 Member Username: Fury13 Post Number: 4191 Registered: 10-2003 |
Buyamerican, You didn't answer my other statements: "Also... when are the US automakers going to make a well-built, versatile car (non-hybrid) that gets 40-50 mpg, lasts 200,000 miles with only perfunctory maintenance, and costs less than $16K to purchase? " WHEN???? 40 mpg... THAT'S what America wants now. Product, product, product. "Why can't Detroit be the LEADER in fuel efficiency, not a follower?" WHY? Why do we have to settle for less than the best fuel economy if we buy American? "(Detroit) didn't react with new product fast enough to the shift in market trends/demands. It should only take a year or 18 months to gear up and get a new model in production." WHY CAN'T U.S. AUTOMAKERS DO THIS? | ||
Sstashmoo Member Username: Sstashmoo Post Number: 2853 Registered: 02-2007 |
Quote: "The US automakers are in trouble because they didn't react with new product fast enough to the shift in market trends/demands." I always laugh at this idiotic remark. Shift in market? Like overnight. Thats like saying anyone that didn't buy Microsoft stock 15 years ago is an idiot. The big3 should have seen this coming two years ahead of time? Michigan truck just a few short years ago was one of the most profitable plants in the world. Building SUV's, because thats what people were buying. Quote: "Most factory workers shouldn't earn more than about $9 per hour. They are uneducated. They have the same qualifications as a 7-11 employee. Hey, if they want a bigger salary, they need go to college and get a degree." Any worker is worth what someone is willing to pay. Setting these across the board pay scales does fit for those who don't try. But what about those who do? They are underpaid. | ||
Fury13 Member Username: Fury13 Post Number: 4192 Registered: 10-2003 |
"The big3 should have seen this coming two years ahead of time?" Yes, they should have. Toyota and Honda sure saw it ahead of time. | ||
Sstashmoo Member Username: Sstashmoo Post Number: 2854 Registered: 02-2007 |
Fury, gas is 1.99 a gallon, if that's putting an economic stranglehold on ya, maybe you shoulda stayed in school a few more years  |
