Discuss Detroit » Archives - July 2008 » Gettlefinger indicates no further concessions. Arrogance 101 « Previous Next »
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Sstashmoo
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Posted on Saturday, November 15, 2008 - 2:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

These folks are going to make their last stand. If they had any sense they'd be entering emergency talks to save the automakers and their jobs via temporary concessions.

Bye Bye UAW.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200 81115/ap_on_bi_ge/auto_bailout _gettelfinger
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Lilpup
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Posted on Saturday, November 15, 2008 - 2:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

No, the UAW isn't about to set a precedent that way. They have a contract and gave substantial concessions for the 2010 contract. There's absolutely no reason for them to give more.

GM wouldn't even be in this position - having to ask the Feds for a bridge loan - if the pieces of scum on Wall Street hadn't robbed everyone blind. GM has assets they would sell off or draw against in a stable market. It was Wall Street that put them in the position were they can't.

The UAW shouldn't give anything. GM needs to seek financing wherever they can get it - Fed, financial sector, private, or overseas.

If Toyota and Honda will be as threatened by GM's demise due to the impact on the supply chain, maybe GM can get some of that low interest funding the Bank of Japan has been supplying for years.
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Pffft
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Posted on Saturday, November 15, 2008 - 2:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The German and Asian automakers pay their workers more, and yet they manage to make money.

Those countries have universal healthcare and protectionist policies toward their home industries that give them a huge advantage over American automakers.
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Thames
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Posted on Saturday, November 15, 2008 - 2:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I don't blame the UAW in this case. Chrysler is giving away $30 million in bonuses (because they were promised last year), yet they have their hand out to the fed. gov't for money.

What those people were guaranteed a year ago is not an option today. The offer should be withdrawn and no bonuses should be paid.

Doing so is not a novice idea. There are retired salaried employees that were guaranteed certain conditions at retirement that were later taken away.

When Iaccoca asked for a loan, he was paying himself a $1.00 a year salary. All three companies should show the same restraint and commitment before anybody gives them anything, whether it be the UAW or the US taxpayers.

I have a severe case of donor fatigue, especially after AIG's shenanigans. I don't blame the UAW for saying "no more".
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Omaha
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Posted on Saturday, November 15, 2008 - 3:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

No union wants to intentionally kill its employer. And there aren't usually employers with death wishes. Last I checked the NLRA requires both parties to bargain with each other, in good faith, over mandatory items of bargaining...wages, hours of work and other terms and conditions of bargaining.

And there is the equity of sacrifice principle that Thames speaks of. How much is management willing to share the pain? Sharing pain is not a mandatory item and it is wholly in management's purview to open that door.

There is also the reality that it's management's inability to put out a product that can win back market share. That is not the union's fault. It the union were asked to examine the operating model to find efficiencies, as was done with Eastern Airlines and the IAM, who knows what could be found. In Eastern's case the union's ideas put the company in the black, but the CEO ended the labor/management cooperation because other CEOs remarked that you can't "have the monkeys running the zoo." Alas, no one has flow Eastern in over 2 decades.

If during negotiations, a deadlock/impasse is reached over $ items, it can lead to strikes or lockouts. If the employer says that it can't afford what the union is asking for, it has an obligation to open its books for inspection by the union. Once the union looks, it can either agree or disagree based upon real data and not just posturing over the bargaining table.

I don't think any Big Three auto maker has ever claimed that it couldn't afford what was being asked for, but what a change it would be if it was transparent.

There are lots of options still unexplored and the keys to opening the doors to look...are all in management's hands.

And as Colbert Conservative, I hope that the Big Three will look at these so they can better compete in the free market.
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1kielsondrive
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Posted on Saturday, November 15, 2008 - 3:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

No more concessions until all books from GM, Ford and Chrysler are opened to the public. Everything! I don't care that Chrysler is privately owned, they have an incompetent leader in Nardelli, and he makes a ton. Mullaly is a failure to this point, and largely unproven in his present position. GM's CEO is likely the most experienced of the three, but has a very questionable track record. This is about the incompetence and arrogance of corporate America, not about the wages and benefits of labor. The only reason anyone questions labor anyway, is because wages and living conditions for most everyone in this country have deteriorated so badly, as to make wages and benefits above minimum look exorbitant. The focus in our society should be elevating EVERYONE's wages and benefits, thereby benefitting our whole society. Have we yet to hear of a BAILOUT for working people? Have we yet to hear of a BAILOUT for homeowners? Is there a BAILOUT for the unemployed? Is there a BAILOUT for the uninsured? Have your credit card rates gone down?
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Lilpup
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Posted on Saturday, November 15, 2008 - 4:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Mulally and Wagoner are competent, probably the most competent CEOs in America. It's mind-boggling that so many people think retail, service, or other non-manufacturing oriented CEOs can waltz in and take over an automaker. No other industry has the complexity the auto industry does and few, if any, are as truly globalized.

Cerberus with Nardelli? - prime example of mind-boggling thinking. Manufacturing and selling cars isn't quit the same as retailing penny nails.

(Message edited by lilpup on November 15, 2008)
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Rhymeswithrawk
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Posted on Saturday, November 15, 2008 - 8:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

At this point, the war on the middle class cannot and will not be stopped. Gettelfinger can either make concessions so the middle class can exist a little longer or put everyone out of work at once. And this is coming from a pro-union Guild member. Times have changed. You're either broke or a millionaire in this country and no job should be taken for granted.
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Daddeeo
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Posted on Saturday, November 15, 2008 - 8:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I don't think Ron will have much of a choice pretty soon.
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Detx
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Posted on Saturday, November 15, 2008 - 8:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

OLD Ron Ron has got to go!
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Lefty2
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Posted on Saturday, November 15, 2008 - 9:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

bankruptcy will change the concession alternative real quick.
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Mauser765
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Posted on Saturday, November 15, 2008 - 9:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

the UAW and Teamsters should all shut the country down that this point and make the president crawl on his fucking knees begging to help them.
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Warriorfan
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Posted on Saturday, November 15, 2008 - 9:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

At this point, the war on the middle class cannot and will not be stopped. Gettelfinger can either make concessions so the middle class can exist a little longer or put everyone out of work at once.



Since when does the Middle Class consist entirely of unskilled manufacturing jobs?

What we are seeing is a transition to an educated middle class. The days of expecting to get a sweet assembly line job straight out of high school and be making 70K a year are dead and gone. We live in an information society, a college education or at least a skilled trade is a must have for a guaranteed future middle class life. If you don't have an education or a skill, then you are expendable. If you're doing a job that can be done by a robot or a trained monkey, then you are expendable.

Ask yourself this, can an uneducated peasant in Mexico or an illiterate high school dropout in Alabama be trained to do your job? If the answer is "yes", then you don't really deserve to be paid more than $15 an hour to do anything. Expecting $20 an hour and full benefits to tighten a screw is the past, not the future. Those who refuse to get with the program are going to be left behind, and I think that's exactly what's going to happen in Michigan, a state that traditionally has not valued education and where people have foolishly expected the golden goose of manufacturing to keep shitting golden eggs forever when that clearly was never going to happen.
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Lilpup
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Posted on Saturday, November 15, 2008 - 10:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There is no guaranteed middle class life, with or without a degree, and woe to anyone with excessive student loan debt.

But, FWIW, when Chrysler/GEMA started up their Dundee engine plant they said they weren't hiring anyone without a college degree.
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Mikeg
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Posted on Saturday, November 15, 2008 - 10:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

This is about the incompetence and arrogance of corporate America,



No, it's about the incompetence and arrogance of the Federal Reserve and their Congressional overseers.

It was the Fed who first proposed the lowering of mortgage credit requirements, and Congress who told their GSE buddies to promote them, which they did and made a mint off them (while donating some of it back to their overseers). Risk was minimal since home values will always continue to appreciate, right? Besides (wink, wink), everybody knows that the GSEs are backed by the full faith and credit of the US Government.

It was the Fed (with the complicity of their Congressional overseers) who further helped the housing bubble expand with its monetary policy that gave us negative real interest rates from 2002 into 2005.

It was the Fed who mistakenly thought that the credit panic in August 2007 could be simply addressed by supplying liquidity instead of supplying public capital and numerous guarantees to the financial system. The Fed persisted with this liquidity approach for 11 months, without success.

The result of the Fed's misguided liquidity approach was to send the dollar price of oil and the dollar-euro exchange rate on a 14 month roller coaster ride, during which the credit markets froze solid and Congress did nothing. We were told that the oil price signal was just due to China and India getting their fair share of oil, and that we should just "get used to it".

Consumers started "getting used to it" by exhibiting a structural shift in demand in the automotive sector. Auto manufacturers responded by shifting production capacity and shuttering plants.

Then the bubble bursts, the financial system begins a melt-down, Congress gives the Treasury Secretary a blank check to reverse it, yet the credit markets remain frozen, consumers still can't get car loans, consumers are too afraid to trust the favorable impact to their budget from the falling price of oil.....

All of the domestic auto manufacturers got whipsawed by Congress and the Fed's ineptitude, yet Congress has the gall to tell the most vulnerable of our auto manufacturers to deal with it on their own and take Chapter 11 if they cannot.

Maybe Congress will end up saving the financial system with bailouts, but the irony will be that there won't be much of a need for the financial system over the next ten years if the Detroit automakers go bankrupt and take this country into a deep depression.
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Frankg
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Posted on Saturday, November 15, 2008 - 11:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well put, Mike!

I remember after the 2007 contract between GM and the UAW, the Wall Street Journal cited one analyst as saying something like with this new contract, the US is now the low-cost producer of automobiles in the world.

The 2007 agreement gets retiree health care off the books. It phases out the defined-benefit pension plan. It provides for 2-tier wage structure. What more do people want from the union?

People talk about the lazy autoworkers. Well anyone who says that has not been in an assembly plant in the last couple years. Those guys are cranking out, that's for sure.

There are ideologues who are salivating for the end of GM, solely because they think it will take the UAW with them. They don't care that a GM failure will take 3 million other jobs with them, too - because they are ideologues! They don't think, they let others do it for them.
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Lmichigan
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Posted on Sunday, November 16, 2008 - 12:34 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm with Ron on this one. The UAW already gave away the shop in their last contract negotiations. It is a conservative talking point and myth that the unions have some how brought the autos to this point. 2007 was a giveaway to corporate and they still managed to fuck it up. No, not this time. They need to find some other scapegoat. I've criticized the UAW, before, but this time this is not their fault.

(Message edited by lmichigan on November 16, 2008)
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Reuel
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Posted on Sunday, November 16, 2008 - 1:34 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hang tough UAW!!!!! You'll show the automakers, just like you showed the buggy whip manufacturers. Solidarity forever, common sense, never!
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Gnome
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Posted on Sunday, November 16, 2008 - 2:58 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Why doesn't the UAW buy Chrysler and show everybody how to build cars the right way? Gettlefinger is obviously an expert in all-things automotive.

See the beauty of the UAW becoming owners, they could then force management to join the Union and create an entire new class of union brethren: White-Collar Unions. With the shrinking union membership, this plan would expand their ranks, spread distrust and suspicion in Board Rooms across the Nation. Perfect.

Seriously, if the UAW made a legit play for Chrysler, then appealed to other Unions to join with them, Gettlefinger could re-write the purpose and the future of the Union movement.

Currently, the Union guys seem stuck in the Sam Gompers era.
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Smogboy
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Posted on Sunday, November 16, 2008 - 3:07 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Now that's a novel idea Gnome. Why not? If the UAW really want to put their money where their mouth is, buy the company! You've pointed out some really interesting points there as well in regards to them making a real impact with the state of unions the way they're run now. But would the UAW top brass' ego & hubris call this stepping across to the dark side (aka. management)?

I think it's brilliant but I seriously doubt it would happen just because the UAW seems so rigid in regards to their internal power structure.
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Gnome
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Posted on Sunday, November 16, 2008 - 3:22 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The UAW just won't look beyond their dirty fingernails to see the world of opportunity offered by our current economic tazering.
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Sstashmoo
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Posted on Sunday, November 16, 2008 - 11:32 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Quote: "Why doesn't the UAW buy Chrysler and show everybody how to build cars the right way? Gettlefinger is obviously an expert in all-things automotive."

That's a great idea. Would there maybe be a quasi union again to represent the workers against tyrannical leadership?
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Lilpup
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Posted on Sunday, November 16, 2008 - 11:41 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"But would the UAW top brass' ego & hubris call this stepping across to the dark side (aka. management)?"

I doubt it, but GM and Ford might take issue with it.
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Frankg
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Posted on Sunday, November 16, 2008 - 12:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You folks are whacky. Where would the union find the money to buy Chrysler? OK, it has a strike fund, but it also has a fiduciary responsibility to its members, and leveraging the strike fund like that would not be in member's best interests. Besides, the strike fund is not nearly big enough to buy Chrysler.

It is interesting to note that back in the 1940's, the UAW demanded that GM open its books to the union, so the union could participate in decision-making about how the business was run. Let's not forget too that the UAW was telling GM they should build small cars, too. Nevertheless, the UAW lost that contract demand, and since that time there has been a sharper divide between management responsibility and union responsibility. I think it is unfortunate. Look at the car exporting countries - Japan, Germany, Korea - and what do they have in common? A strong labor movement! Labor has a seat at the table with business when government sets trade and industrial policy. Labor has a seat in the business. Workers have a voice on the shop floor. The result of a strong labor movement is more competitive industry, not less competitive.
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Lodgedodger
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Posted on Sunday, November 16, 2008 - 12:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Quite frankly, I believe the GM, Ford, and Chrysler, 'We're close to bankruptcy, we need a bailout!!!" alarm is a ploy to get money from the government. Three months ago, didn't we hear differently? More greed.

Problem is, they'll take us all down with them to prove their point.

They need to open their books...
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Lilpup
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Posted on Sunday, November 16, 2008 - 12:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Three months ago the credit market wasn't so constipated. If GM could get this loan from anywhere other than the government right now I'm sure they would.
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Retroit
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Posted on Sunday, November 16, 2008 - 12:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

A few facts that I learned today (watching Channel 4 10-11am):
1. The European automakers have asked for $57 Billion from the European Union. (i.e. they are hurting too.)
2. AIG and Bear-Stearns employees were not asked to take concessions when their companies were bailed out.
3. Senator Richard Shelby (R-AL and chairman of the banking subcommittee) seems determined to let the auto industry fail.
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Sstashmoo
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Posted on Sunday, November 16, 2008 - 1:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Quote: "alarm is a ploy to get money from the government."

These folks have been blowing the warning longer than a few weeks. GM's announcement they could be facing bankruptcy due to slow sales and high labor costs came out a few years ago.

GM is around $3 and Ford is around $1.80. Dam near penny stocks. Open their books? And scare of the last few stockholders?
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Lowell
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Posted on Sunday, November 16, 2008 - 9:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Great post Mikeg on your description of the current chaos not being due to the unions who have done their share by taking a huge hit in the last contract.

It is management of the 'big' 3 who got drunk and drove their cars in the ditch, not the Unions, not the Japanese.

It is they who could not see beyond the end of their nose and understand the precarious nature of the supply of oil. Instead they embarked on building models that increasingly grew larger, sucking more ever oil. "A fish rots from the head."

The culmination of this was the Hummer. Talk about a backward-looking car of the past! Where would GM be if they had put that energy in making a hybrid like the Prius?

Meanwhile, management and their cronies on the boards of directors were looting the stockholders. How about this headline from April 2007.

quote:

Ford CEO: $28,000,000 for 4 months work
Former Boeing exec got $18.5 million bonus, almost $9 million in stock and options and base salary at annual $2 million rate.

The stock and company have continued to sink under him. How about cutting his salary to that of one of those 'overpaid' line workers. Heck, let's be generous and pay him Gettlfinger's wage.

quote:

UAW officers get pay raise
Modest increases come a year after leadership took 2.5 percent pay cuts.
David Shepardson / Detroit News Washington Bureau
WASHINGTON -- UAW President Ron Gettelfinger got a 2.3 percent raise in 2006, a year after taking a pay cut, a federal report released Thursday showed.

Gettelfinger earned $145,126 and received $13,405 in allowances and official expenses for a total compensation of $158,530.


"No more concessions until all books from GM, Ford and Chrysler are opened to the public."

Amen 1kielson.
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_sj_
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Posted on Sunday, November 16, 2008 - 9:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Those countries have universal healthcare and protectionist policies toward their home industries that give them a huge advantage over American automakers.



Don't stop believing in falsehoods and mis-understandings. That 25% tariff on pickup trucks must have been a figment of people's imaginations since the early 60's

quote:

What we are seeing is a transition to an educated middle class.



Just as has happened in the past. About three times already. But don't tell the autoworkers that they still believe they created and consist of the middle class.

quote:

No more concessions until all books from GM, Ford and Chrysler are opened to the public



Why? All it would do is paint a more bleak picture and show just how expensive and wasteful the car companies are.

No taxpayer bailout until all sides take concessions.

(Message edited by _sj_ on November 16, 2008)
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Lilpup
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Posted on Sunday, November 16, 2008 - 9:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Alan Mulally, the Ford CEO, has a base salary of $2 million a year. The $28 million he received that Lowell quotes above was paid the first year he arrived at Ford from Boeing and reflects a one time payment for the value of everything Mulally gave up at Boeing to come to Detroit as well as a signing bonus. It is not at all indicative of the annual pay he receives working for Ford.

http://www.crainsdetroit.com/a rticle/20070528/SUB/70525005/- 1

You can also throw in there the fact that any stock options are currently worth zip.
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_sj_
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Posted on Sunday, November 16, 2008 - 9:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

They need billions but are offering 10k in employee discounts according to a commerical on TV just a few seconds ago.

Nothing will change.
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Lilpup
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Posted on Sunday, November 16, 2008 - 10:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

GM and Chrysler are the ones in trouble.
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_sj_
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Posted on Sunday, November 16, 2008 - 10:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Who do you think was running the ad.

(Message edited by _sj_ on November 16, 2008)
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Higgs1634
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Posted on Monday, November 17, 2008 - 9:53 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

What more do people want from the union?



A statement that says: "Today we closed the Job's Bank and laid those workers off, it was a difficult decision but the reality was it had to be done." -Ron Gettlefinger

I know personally two individuals who work at Fords(sic). Both are in the so-called Jobs bank. Both have a second job (which is how I happened to meet one of them). I understand this is not supposed to happen, but I also understand from these two, that for those who want to, it is easy to do. Both draw full salaries at both jobs. And both have all benefits through Ford ONLY. Their second jobs love them b/c they are just salary and no benefits. In fact at second job, others were laid off to keep the Ford employee b/c he is cheaper to employ. Nice.

There are 10-15,000 in the Jobs bank all making full salary and benefits. 15,000 at 100k per man PER YEAR dwarfs any so-called 'waste' on exec compensation.

But of course, it's all managements fault.

quote:

The culmination of this was the Hummer. Talk about a backward-looking car of the past! Where would GM be if they had put that energy in making a hybrid like the Prius?



So, they should have been making a car that is heavily subsidized by both the Company itself and the home country (Toyota LOSES MONEY ON EVERY PRIUS IT SELLS) INSTEAD of what were very profitable vehicles that they could barely make enough of to keep up with demand?

If GM followed your advice, Lowell, they'd have been bankrupt around 1995.
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Reuel
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Posted on Monday, November 17, 2008 - 10:04 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

GM and Ford's books are open. As publicly traded companies that's been true for decades. Calling for their books to be opened betrays a certain level of ignorance in things financial.
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Higgs1634
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Posted on Monday, November 17, 2008 - 10:05 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

They need billions but are offering 10k in employee discounts according to a commerical on TV just a few seconds ago.



They also need to move product and consumers have shut their wallets. What would you have them do?
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Gambling_man
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Posted on Monday, November 17, 2008 - 10:12 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Higgs, you couldn't be more correct. Building the trucks and SUV's that they did made them billions. Anyhow, if anyone doesn't know, with a Chapter 11 filing, GM and Chrysler could erase the Union Contract (certainly any onerous provisions of it) and basically start over........
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_sj_
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Posted on Monday, November 17, 2008 - 10:12 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well for one, it is only available to employees, a $32,000 car selling for $21,000. It also depresses the resale value of the cars for the people who were forced to overpay to make up the difference.

Take that discount and cut it in half and sell that price to everyone would make more sense.

quote:


But of course, it's all managements fault.



Well, they did negotiate those deals, so they are not blameless.
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Higgs1634
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Posted on Monday, November 17, 2008 - 10:19 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Not saying they are blameless. Not saying that at all. They should have stood up to the extortionist UAW deals, but they took the easy route of buying peace and putting it off. Well, times up.
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Digitalvision
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Posted on Monday, November 17, 2008 - 10:20 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The UAW has made a lot of concessions, and by 2010, according to some sources, they will be in-line with their Japanese US plant counterparts.

This is a product and service, not a production, problem.

Perception has to change - there are some really great American cars out there, but I can't tell you how many people I know around the country won't buy another American car as long as they live because they were burned with high repair bills in the past, or unreliability.

Personally, having had experience with a friend who owned a Honda, it was reliable and the dealer service was exemplary.

Having now dealt as I got older with a GM and a Chrysler, GM has been great; the Chrysler dealer service experience (which is what people see) was horrid, rude at multiple dealers for multiple service points in the 20k I've had to deal with this car. It makes me not want to buy a Chrysler myself, because I don't want to be treated like cattle.

Frankly, this is where a lot of the front line issues are. It's the same problem, in a lot of ways, as Microsoft Windows. It's not that Windows is always bad (I'm a mac user); it's that the third-parties screw it up by putting bad drivers, bloatware, and junk on it before you get it, then their service sucks as the third parties handle the service calls for the computers they sell with Vista, not Microsoft, creating a poor user experience. And Microsoft gets the blame for the third-parties problems.

Frankly, the dealers suck. Every time I've been in a foreign dealership for myself or with friends, they've always wanted our business, and sold the car that I or my friend wanted to buy.

I can't say as much for all the US dealers, continually trying to push the cars that THEY make the most profit on as opposed to what the customer wants. And this might be why there's more of a perception of "they don't make what I want," because the dealers keep trying to talk them out of it.
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Goat
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Posted on Monday, November 17, 2008 - 11:44 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I just love the union and business rhetoric on this thread. Both sides entrenched in their philosophy, arguing about their merits while the entire ship goes down with all aboard.

One of the biggest issues is the fact that only a small amount of working people are paying for the benefits of many retirees (no, not the ones the UAW has taken over but the large amount of recently retired or about to retire employees). I am not suggesting these people didn't earn or deserve a pension and/or benefits this is just hard cold facts.

The other are these huge payouts for people to retire early. Talk about digging your own grave...damned if you do damned if you don't but the fact remains. Either work together or screw a lot more people over because of unbridled greed by both sides.

One thing that is not talked about is the media's role in this. For too many years they have championed imports over domestic which at one time was true. However that is not the case any longer. In fact the amount of defects between the two are so small the average purchaser wouldn't know the difference in defects. But the media won't tell you that.
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Novine
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Username: Novine

Post Number: 840
Registered: 07-2007
Posted on Monday, November 17, 2008 - 12:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

" Anyhow, if anyone doesn't know, with a Chapter 11 filing, GM and Chrysler could erase the Union Contract (certainly any onerous provisions of it) and basically start over........"

Who's going to buy a car from a company in Bankruptcy? Not me and I've always supported the Big 3.
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Otter
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Post Number: 381
Registered: 12-2007
Posted on Monday, November 17, 2008 - 1:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Higgs,

Toyota does not lose money on the Prius. The program broke even early in the product cycle of the current car, or at the very end of the first Prius' lifecycle. One thing Toyota is good at is making money.

As for the Big 3's production of big-ass trucks and SUVs, arguing (if that is the word) that they made them because that's what people wanted is pretty weak. They were what people wanted, until they weren't, and they do not have the flexibility to adapt to new demands profitably.
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Digitalvision
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Username: Digitalvision

Post Number: 1451
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Monday, November 17, 2008 - 1:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Reputable buyer statistics show, Novine, that 80% of people would NOT buy a car from a firm in bankruptcy. You're not alone.

There's anecdotal evidence that the fear of bankruptcy is already manifesting in the current 45% drop as opposed to the 23% or so Toyota drop in sales. Although everyone has been hurting, the US public is voting with their wallets by not buying GM.

So expect a 70%-80% drop in sales from where we're at if they declare it... I firmly believe chapter 11 will turn into chapter 7 because it's not like this a small purchase, it's an investment.
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Higgs1634
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Username: Higgs1634

Post Number: 769
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Monday, November 17, 2008 - 2:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

The program broke even early in the product cycle of the current car, or at the very end of the first Prius' lifecycle.



Ok, I'll go with you and say...this (3rd?) generation finally might have made the vehicle line line profitable. I don't believe Toyota will say one way or another...could be wrong, and I'm not anti prius.. btw. My point is this; GM was making cars the market demanded in th 1990s. It could not finance a hybrid, and no one (not even the Japanese) thought gas would run up so fast. Toyota took some extra cash, made a bet, and that has paid off 10 years later. Ok..score one for the Japs. But, if you think the Japanese thought trucks were dead, why did they start building giant trucks?

GM did not and does not have the luxury of subsidizing a niche hybrid for the better part of a decade based on a hunch hoping it will pay off.

Judging from the sneers of derision on this board and from the media, even when GM does come up with it's own "game changer" in the Volt, it is slammed as ridiculous because it's too expensive (even with GM eating costs) and not convenient. But he freaking Insight (a two seat go cart) is lauded when it came out? Seriously?

Heck, if GM had introduce the Prius it probably would have killed the whole hybrid movement simply because GM made it. Everyone knows GM (and Detroit) can't innovate or build anything worth a damn.

quote:

One thing Toyota is good at is making money.



That's true...especially when the Japanese Government is doing the heavy lifting.

"The Japanese government paid for 100 per cent of the development of the battery and hybrid system that went into the Toyota Prius."- Jim Press, president of Chrysler LLC and a former Toyota board member. Press worked for 37 years at Toyota, including the years of research for the Prius, which went on sale 10 years ago.

Press has been accused of lying, so I guess the question is whom to believe and who has something to hide? I'd believe Press over a Toyota spokesman.
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Townonenorth
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Post Number: 356
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Posted on Monday, November 17, 2008 - 2:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It's in Japan's (among other countries) best interest to destroy the U.S. auto industry. Why else would they subsidize their industries? Not out of the goodness of their hearts, that's for sure.

We as a country need to figure out what we want to be, an exporter of goods and services, or a nation of consumers. And really, the model we've been following doesn't seem to be working too well.
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Warrenite84
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Username: Warrenite84

Post Number: 432
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Monday, November 17, 2008 - 4:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You have to make money to be a consumer. That is why Henry Ford was smart in raising his employee's wages so they could afford what they made.

IMHO, without manufacturing, a service economy cannot survive. Manufacturing adds durable commodities to the market that also add value through service, maintainance, and increased productivity.
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Trainman
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Username: Trainman

Post Number: 807
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Monday, November 17, 2008 - 9:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If we support a one half percent four county sales tax for SMART then the auto workers who lose thier jobs could become union bus drivers, should GM or Chrysler need to lay off more workers.

We as taxpayers really should care about workers by raising taxes and supporting the multi billion dollar bail out plan for GM, Chrysler and SMART by voting YES next August 2010 to raise over $50 Million dollar per year.

And remember to support the efforts to get the SMART buses back in Livonia.

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