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French777
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Username: French777

Post Number: 612
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Sunday, November 16, 2008 - 4:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Do you think that it is better that?

1.) The Museums are in Midtown instead of downtown?
2.) That WSU and Orch Hall are in Midtown?

I think it is good that they are spread out so more of the woodward area can improve faster , but on the contrary Downtown is pretty empty when it comes to people walking around and such. . . . .

What do you think?
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Hans57
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Username: Hans57

Post Number: 357
Registered: 05-2006
Posted on Sunday, November 16, 2008 - 4:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think that if Midtown continues to get better, as it's still doing, it is inevitable that more positive things will happen Downtown.

Rails?
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Detroitrise
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Username: Detroitrise

Post Number: 3922
Registered: 09-2007
Posted on Sunday, November 16, 2008 - 4:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

but on the contrary Downtown is pretty empty when it comes to people walking around and such. . . . .



I agree.

quote:

1.) The Museums are in Midtown instead of downtown?
2.) That WSU and Orch Hall are in Midtown?



It really doesn't make a difference to me.
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Bearinabox
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Username: Bearinabox

Post Number: 1027
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Sunday, November 16, 2008 - 4:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I don't really see how any of those things would help improve foot traffic. Most people don't walk out of the DIA or Orchestra Hall and then decide to go for a stroll down Woodward.
IMHO, the lack of foot traffic downtown boils down to three basic things:

1. Lack of a cohesive strip of businesses. There are nice businesses downtown, but you have to look for them. You can't just walk down a street going in and out of shops the way you can in other cities. Because the businesses people want to patronize are so far apart, it's easier just to drive from one to the next, especially since there is plenty of parking everywhere.

2. Lack of transit options. If there were better transit and more of a transit-riding culture here, people would take transit downtown and then walk from place to place. That would increase foot traffic.

3. The atmosphere. Those of us who spend a lot of time walking around downtown put up with quite a lot--constant panhandling, piss in the alleys, pieces of buildings falling on our heads, broken sidewalks, broken liquor bottles, occasionally getting whacked over the head for no reason by some punk kids in Cadillac Square--simply put, it's not the world's most welcoming place to go for a stroll. Some people are willing to overlook that, and others aren't. The better it gets, the more people will want to walk there. I'm not saying turn it into Royal Oak, but have you smelled that alley off Grand River between Woodward and Griswold?
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Andylinn
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Username: Andylinn

Post Number: 1096
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Sunday, November 16, 2008 - 5:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Foot traffic REALLY boils down to transit options and residential housing patterns. What, maybe 10,000 people live in the CBD? That is not enough people to generate foot traffic. As the population in the CBD builds, as it is, then foot traffic will increase.
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Hans57
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Username: Hans57

Post Number: 358
Registered: 05-2006
Posted on Sunday, November 16, 2008 - 5:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I would say about 5,000 or less, Andy.
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Oldredfordette
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Username: Oldredfordette

Post Number: 5657
Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Sunday, November 16, 2008 - 5:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

When these things were built, there were thriving neighborhoods along the way, and a streetcar to take you everywhere.
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Douglasm
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Username: Douglasm

Post Number: 1173
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Sunday, November 16, 2008 - 5:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Look at it another way. How long has the Cultural Center been in Midtown, and how much commercial enterprise has grown up around it? In a way, the library, DIA and the Historical Museum are like banks are in the middle of a commercial strip. They absolutely stop the flow of foot traffic because any retail opertunity is a block away.

A downtown university location would improve street traffic, but then you've got a different problem, as best shown by the University Avenue commercial district near the University of Washington near downtown Seattle.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T he_Ave

I don't know what kind of impact the University of Michigan has on downtown Ann Arbor although my memory says not much, Downtown being about 6 blocks away along Main Street. Eastern had absolutely no impact on Ypsilanti's downtown when I lived there......
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Border5150
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Username: Border5150

Post Number: 279
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Sunday, November 16, 2008 - 7:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't EMU and U-M built, only to have have Ypsi and Ann Arbor develop around them later?
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Sumas
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Username: Sumas

Post Number: 352
Registered: 01-2008
Posted on Sunday, November 16, 2008 - 8:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sigh, I am old enough to remember downtown Detroit as a viable retail and walking district. It was fantastic.
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French777
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Username: French777

Post Number: 613
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Sunday, November 16, 2008 - 8:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Recently I have become more interested in Midtown rather than Downtown. . . .
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Detroitrise
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Username: Detroitrise

Post Number: 3926
Registered: 09-2007
Posted on Sunday, November 16, 2008 - 10:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Sigh, I am old enough to remember downtown Detroit as a viable retail and walking district. It was fantastic.



As yes, the NYC & Paris of the midwest.

If noly we could see those days again. :-(
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Stromberg2
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Username: Stromberg2

Post Number: 143
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Monday, November 17, 2008 - 2:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

French, Do you get to Detroit very often?

Stromberg2
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French777
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Username: French777

Post Number: 614
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Monday, November 17, 2008 - 3:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

At leased once month but sometimes more or less depending on the month....Now my parents let me drive there by myself so i will be going down A LOT MORE now!!! On sunday I drove to The Museum of African American History museum by myself!
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Margdar
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Username: Margdar

Post Number: 24
Registered: 08-2007
Posted on Monday, November 17, 2008 - 4:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bearinabox, yes! That alley! I always talk about that alley! It should be noted in a tour guide, for real.

Because of my proximity to this landmark, I am forced to alter my daily pedal commute to avoid the most-foul, noxious alley-fumes EVER. It is BY FAR the worst smelling alley in all of Detroit. I am no stranger to street funk, but this alley takes the cake.
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Eastsideal
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Username: Eastsideal

Post Number: 46
Registered: 10-2007
Posted on Monday, November 17, 2008 - 10:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"When these things were built, there were thriving neighborhoods along the way, and a streetcar to take you everywhere."

Exactly. And downtown was seen as too crowded/congested and too much of a business center (i.e. vulgar commerce) to be a good place to locate cultural institutions. It's actually much the same in other big cities. In NYC, Chicago, Philadelphia, L.A., S.F., etc. the city's major art museum is located separate from the main business district, most often in a park. Similarly, almost no big cities in the country have a university located in the main business district.

The difference of Detroit is, though, that it no longer has many businesses located in its downtown either.

"If there were better transit and more of a transit-riding culture here, people would take transit downtown and then walk from place to place. That would increase foot traffic"

That's the other big difference for Detroit. This is a city that has valet parking for shopping malls. People around here just do not like to walk, or take the bus.
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Detroitrise
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Username: Detroitrise

Post Number: 3930
Registered: 09-2007
Posted on Monday, November 17, 2008 - 10:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

or take the bus.



I'm sorry, but DDOT (or SMART) aren't the most friendly transit services either.
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6nois
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Username: 6nois

Post Number: 763
Registered: 11-2006
Posted on Tuesday, November 18, 2008 - 12:06 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

DDot and SMART aren't that bad. Speaking as someone who now uses both of them because a slight car wreck has altered me auto less.
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Sean_of_detroit
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Username: Sean_of_detroit

Post Number: 2227
Registered: 03-2008
Posted on Tuesday, November 18, 2008 - 4:03 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

French, you should have seen the CBD in 2005. Living down there... it was like having the entire CBD to yourself. I'd walk from Grand Circus Park to the Ren Cen, and see maybe one pedestrian (usually a pan handler), and less than a dozen cars on the roads.

The CBD's activity now is like night and day. It's like the difference between the activity in Chicago compared to the Detroit of now. All that in less than five years.

That is (in part) why I'm so confident we can double our foot traffic, almost overnight again (not to mention, fix our many other massive problems). I saw it happen once already. I came to a Downtown where many had what appeared to be blind faith (it wasn't, but only they knew that). Majority of the current residents and business owners I met, couldn't understand why I would choose to live in their community (many of them had given up on the idea of making it better, and dreamed of leaving. They HATED Detroit. It was inspiring to see that way of thinking change in a good number of them).

On the other hand, the attitudes of our area make perfect sense when you realize that most of the people much older than us saw the exact opposite happen. I guess that door swings both ways?
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Bobl
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Username: Bobl

Post Number: 206
Registered: 07-2008
Posted on Tuesday, November 18, 2008 - 5:51 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Sigh, I am old enough to remember downtown Detroit as a viable retail and walking district. It was fantastic."
Yes, it was...and my memory is of the later stages of viable commercial and social activity downtown. It was already dwindling.
My first Christmas shopping memory is taking the streetcar to Hudson's, where an entire section of the store was dedicated to youthful shoppers, with "chaperones" looking on and helping. Crowded sidewalks, happy people everywhere.
It is nice to read Sean's contribution, but there is a long way back!
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Kathleen
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Username: Kathleen

Post Number: 3085
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Tuesday, November 18, 2008 - 7:02 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The Cultural Center was envisioned by the city fathers and its patrons roughly 100 years ago, although it took some 20 years to develop into what we see today with the Detroit Public Library and the Detroit Institute of Arts anchoring the area. With all the residences up and down Woodward Ave. plus these fine institutions and churches and hotels and apartments in the area, one can only imagine the Sunday afternoon strolls up and down the Avenue, cars driving by....

But times change, and people move on and out... the University moved nearby...and the Cultural Center expanded with the addition of three more museums (plus CCS and other museums and institutions). So now it is a destination rather than a continuation of daily life. But with Midtown coming back and more residential and retail there, the Cultural Center could reap the benefits of people walking to their destination.

French777: Preservation Wayne offers walking tours of both the Cultural Center and Midtown during their summer walking tour season. I'm the facilitator for the Cultural Center tour, and would be happy to meet up with you for a tour around the area sometime. Email me at dkosh <at> msn.com.

And if you want to really experience what the Cultural Center has to offer, check out the upcoming Noel Night on Saturday, December 6. It's free...and packed with so many opportunities that you can't possibly get to everything. For more info, http://www.detroitmidtown.com/ 05/noelnight.php
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French777
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Username: French777

Post Number: 615
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Tuesday, November 18, 2008 - 3:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I am planning on going to Noel Night! I have yet to see the Detroit Public Library and other attractions around Midtown!
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Detroitplanner
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Username: Detroitplanner

Post Number: 2011
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Tuesday, November 18, 2008 - 3:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Did you know that there was once a grand boulevard planned to extend from the Train Station to the Library?

I like having the Museums and Colleges grouped together. I can recall as an undergrad heading over to the DIA or another museum when I was waiting for another class. Sure beat spending the afternoon in Circa's or Tappers on 3rd getting hammered.
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Stromberg2
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Username: Stromberg2

Post Number: 144
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2008 - 3:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

We should all meet somewhere on Noel Night. I've never been to it.

Stromberg2

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