 
Lilpup
Member
Username: Lilpup
Post Number: 5641
Registered: 06-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, November 16, 2008 - 8:27 pm: |    |
One thing I've noticed since this whole Big 3 money crunch started - a lot of posts here from people who I assume are metro Detroiters seem to not care much about the survival of the domestic industry. This would seem to indicate that those people identify Detroit more heavily with something other than the auto industry.
What would that be? What are people seeing as Detroit's primary, sustaining identity if it's not the auto industry? |
East_detroit
Member
Username: East_detroit
Post Number: 2290
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 16, 2008 - 8:35 pm: | |
It would also be interesting to know how their jobs are not at all connected to the survival of the Detroit 3. |
Digitalvision
Member
Username: Digitalvision
Post Number: 1448
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 16, 2008 - 9:51 pm: | |
A lot of people who post on this board are NOT metro Detroiters anymore... |
Lilpup
Member
Username: Lilpup
Post Number: 5643
Registered: 06-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, November 16, 2008 - 10:17 pm: | |
I realize that, DV, just wondering all the same. |
_sj_
Member
Username: _sj_
Post Number: 2789
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 16, 2008 - 10:48 pm: | |
quote:It would also be interesting to know how their jobs are not at all connected to the survival of the Detroit 3.
Because not every job is connected to the car business. I guess the real interesting question would be will the arrogance stop.
quote:What would that be? What are people seeing as Detroit's primary, sustaining identity if it's not the auto industry?
I would say crime and racism. |
Gazhekwe
Member
Username: Gazhekwe
Post Number: 2719
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, November 16, 2008 - 10:53 pm: | |
Most jobs are connected to the auto industry here, because that has been the largest employer. A lot of Dearborn places will start hurting if Ford goes away, and that will be multiplied as suppliers begin to fold or downsize. The more people out of work, the less money is around to be spent on things. Banks, restaurants, retail stores of all kinds will suffer. Then there are the tax dollars we will lose as the jobs go away. Everything from schools to city services to the state budget will be severely impacted. Wherever you work in the Detroit area, you will be impacted if the auto companies all go under. |
_sj_
Member
Username: _sj_
Post Number: 2793
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 16, 2008 - 11:21 pm: | |
No different than when any other area faces an issue with their large industries. |
English
Member
Username: English
Post Number: 847
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 16, 2008 - 11:25 pm: | |
The entire nation will be affected if we let the auto industry go under, not just Michigan. I am bewildered by Americans' nonchalance at becoming a Third World tourist nation that has to import everything. Don't we care about our national security anymore? |
Scarlet_crush
Member
Username: Scarlet_crush
Post Number: 17
Registered: 06-2008
| | Posted on Sunday, November 16, 2008 - 11:27 pm: | |
I was making pretty good supplemental income working for a special events company for a number of years. My income from that second job has kept me afloat over the years. Many if not most of our events were for the big 3, dealers or suppliers. That income is gone and sorely missed. I have not worked for them in months and I am having a hard time subsequently. There is of course a ripple effect. According to Governor Granholm, one in ten jobs is tied to the auto industry.
I have heard a lot of talk that Detroit would be an ideal workforce for the manufacturing of wind turbines, but I don't really know if that's the answer. It's something I often wonder about. |
Haikoont
Member
Username: Haikoont
Post Number: 34
Registered: 09-2008
| | Posted on Monday, November 17, 2008 - 2:14 am: | |
quote:Because not every job is connected to the car business. I guess the real interesting question would be will the arrogance stop.
I would say crime and racism.
No different than when any other area faces an issue with their large industries.
This is clearly the attitude of someone who either left the area or never lived here and gets a certain schadenfreude at our struggles here. The loans to the domestics are looking iffier by the day. You will probably get your wish soon and see our state go completely over the cliff. I am not connected to the auto industry, but I know if any or all of the Big 3 go under, I am fucked. My house is already worthless. I'm glad you can enjoy that. |
Gazhekwe
Member
Username: Gazhekwe
Post Number: 2721
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Monday, November 17, 2008 - 4:12 pm: | |
Michigan is not the only state with a significant auto presence related to the Big 3. There are large plants in Ohio, PA, Illinois and more. Ontario across the river is shaking in its boots as well. There are tons of parts companies, advertising and PR firms, the hospitality industry, real estate. It is not just the automotive jobs. Those people spend money. Anything they are used to spending money on is going to get hit big time.
The other thing everyone is ignoring. What made this place the Arsenal of Democracy in WWII was the manufacturing ability of the Big Three. They were able to turn their plants around to make things the country needed to fight that war. How will we do that if we allow our biggest manufacturers to go down? Outsource national defense? |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 3618
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Monday, November 17, 2008 - 4:46 pm: | |
I must have missed something. Who implied that they don't care whether or not the Big 3 survive? |
401don
Member
Username: 401don
Post Number: 861
Registered: 11-2007
| | Posted on Monday, November 17, 2008 - 5:09 pm: | |
It's quite a leap to assume that the same people who don't care about the auto industry's survival have thought about a separate business/industry identity for Detroit.
Do most cities have such an identity anyway? Quick, what industry do you identify with Denver, St. Louis, Philadelphia, Cleveland, Minneapolis, Toronto, Montreal etc.? Maybe not having an identity should be our goal. It indicates a diverse economy. |
Cman710
Member
Username: Cman710
Post Number: 533
Registered: 07-2006
| | Posted on Monday, November 17, 2008 - 6:00 pm: | |
While I think there are valid points being made on both sides, I find that the national security issue is overblown. (Note: Before someone accuses me of not caring about national security, I want to note that I consider it the number one issue facing the country, support the Patriot Act, and think that we should increase military spending.)
First, regardless of what happens in terms of a bailout, we are not going to have zero domestic production of cars. The assets that would impact national security, manufacturing plants, are extremely valuable assets that are not going to be shuddered forever. Some plants may close, but in the end, the vast majority of them will likely be reorganized under a domestic company or companies. (Some may be sold to a Japanese or European company, but given the current economic environment, it remains unlikely most of them would be. Besides, for most of these companies, a number of new plants would result in excess capacity.)
Finally, in the modern world of military supply, large manufacturers are not the only (or sometimes, even major) providers. For example, in the past five years, when the Iraq war created a demand for MRAP vehicles, it was companies like Force Protection and BAE that ramped up production, not automotive manufacturers. |
Ray
Member
Username: Ray
Post Number: 1165
Registered: 06-2004
| | Posted on Monday, November 17, 2008 - 11:03 pm: | |
It's a sad day for us. The antipathy toward are state by the rest of the country is shocking. Headline after headline essentially says fuck Michigan.
Two places where this especially iritates me: Wall Street and Silicon Valley. Wall Street, having single-handedly destroyed the economy through sheer greed and incompetence now tut-tuts Michigan and the car companies. And, NY got loads of federal help after 9-11. Really, at this point, I don't have an ounce of sympathy for NY after the next inevitable attack.
The other place is Silicon Valley, where the vitriol against Michigan is unreal. They are "experts" at everything and have this all figured out. One thing they haven't though through is that they are sitting in the kill zone for a 8.0 quake within 30 years. When that happens, they'll be the first to beg for assistance.
We'll if "Detroit deserves to die" (quote from today's paper in SF) for not having the foresight to build fuel efficient cars, then surely the citizens of the Bay Area also "deserve to die" for not having the foresight to avoid building and living on a major fault.
I'm personnally rather bitter about it. I hope people in Michigan will not forget this for a long time. |
Lilpup
Member
Username: Lilpup
Post Number: 5652
Registered: 06-2004
| | Posted on Monday, November 17, 2008 - 11:27 pm: | |
^^ (my take on LA's fires is much the same) |
_sj_
Member
Username: _sj_
Post Number: 2799
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 18, 2008 - 10:12 am: | |
quote:This is clearly the attitude of someone who either left the area or never lived here and gets a certain schadenfreude at our struggles here.
You know what they say about assumption. Gotta love the arrogance.
quote:Two places where this especially iritates me: Wall Street and Silicon Valley. Wall Street, having single-handedly destroyed the economy through sheer greed and incompetence now tut-tuts Michigan and the car companies. And, NY got loads of federal help after 9-11. Really, at this point, I don't have an ounce of sympathy for NY after the next inevitable attack.
Are you seriously comparing the problems the Big Three have created to a tragedy that ruined and took the lives of many people. And you wonder why people won't shed a tear for you. |
Norwalk
Member
Username: Norwalk
Post Number: 423
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 18, 2008 - 10:34 am: | |
I'm with you Ray. I keep hearing Detroit created their own mess obviously someone had to create the Financial mess but no one mentions that. |
Lilpup
Member
Username: Lilpup
Post Number: 5655
Registered: 06-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 18, 2008 - 10:37 am: | |
"And you wonder why people won't shed a tear for you"
Those are the same people who purport to have absolutely no clue as to why NY and D.C. were attacked. |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 3621
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 18, 2008 - 10:58 am: | |
This is silly. There were people who were born and raised in Michigan that were in those buildings attacked on 9/11. There are people in New York and California whose jobs depend directly on the auto industry (where is Lincoln-Mercury Headquartered again!?). |
Lilpup
Member
Username: Lilpup
Post Number: 5656
Registered: 06-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 18, 2008 - 11:04 am: | |
Lincoln Mercury was called back to Dearborn five years ago. |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 3622
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 18, 2008 - 11:07 am: | |
>Lincoln Mercury was called back to Dearborn five years ago.
Well, I'm glad they are able to correct stupid decisions. There is still hope yet. |
Big_baby_jebus
Member
Username: Big_baby_jebus
Post Number: 17
Registered: 09-2008
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 18, 2008 - 11:52 am: | |
I wonder how much Kilpatrick's conduct over the last couple years influenced the lawmakers that we now hold our fate in. I'm sure not one thing he did as mayor now helps our situation. |
Detroitrise
Member
Username: Detroitrise
Post Number: 3931
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 18, 2008 - 2:24 pm: | |
BTW, Phoenix, Atlanta & Las Vegas deserves to die from lack of water. |
Izzyindetroit
Member
Username: Izzyindetroit
Post Number: 130
Registered: 07-2008
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 18, 2008 - 6:16 pm: | |
"Quick, what industry do you identify with Denver, St. Louis, Philadelphia, Cleveland, Minneapolis, Toronto, Montreal etc.? Maybe not having an identity should be our goal. It indicates a diverse economy."
Denver - Weapons
St. Louis - Beer
Philadelphia - Cheese Steaks
Cleveland - Steel
Minn - Hospitals
Toronto - Maple Syrup
Montreal - Hockey
Who woulda thunk autos wasn't a sure thing?? |
Thecarl
Member
Username: Thecarl
Post Number: 1443
Registered: 04-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 18, 2008 - 6:52 pm: | |
i'm up for the challenge too!
quote:Quick, what industry do you identify with Denver, St. Louis, Philadelphia, Cleveland, Minneapolis, Toronto, Montreal etc.?
denver - brewing, mining, tourism
st. louis - brewing, shipping, tourism
philadelphia - insurance and finance, tourism
cleveland - shipping, manufacturing
minneapolis - agriculture, retail, tourism
toronto - finance, culture, entertainment, tourism
montreal - finance, culture, hunting, tourism
that's just top-of-mind for me; i've only been to a handful of those cities. |
Englishkills
Member
Username: Englishkills
Post Number: 16
Registered: 10-2008
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 18, 2008 - 7:51 pm: | |
I identify the towns mentioned with the following economies/industries:
Denver - It's isolation makes it a regional hub for a significant section of the country. One of the top cities in the U.S. as far as Federal Government employees. Defense industry in particular is big there. Location also makes it a key link for the communications industry. Mining and energy still play a role in their local economy although not as much so as in the past. Coors is also a major player there and it's a State Capital.
St. Louis is hurting pretty badly. McDonnell-Douglas essentially swallowed up by Boeing. Budweiser was bought by INBEV. Federated Department Stores bought by May. St. Louis has had more of its companies acquired by out of towners than almost any place I can think of. A Times article a few months ago pointed out how the locals are extremely bitter because of this.
Philly - Pretty well diversified. Health care including Cigna. Oil and energy including Sunoco. Chemicals. Pharma including Wyeth and GloxoSmithKline. Education - some great Universities located in the city including UPenn, Villanova, Temple, Drexel, etc...
Cleveland - Education, medical and biotech. Case Western and Cleveland Clinic are world renowned. Probably have lost as many corporate HQs as St; Louis though. Declining manufacturing. Losing National City HQ to Pittsburgh really hurts.
Minneapolis - Target is based there. I know little about Minneapolis other than it is a regional capital similar to the way Denver is. Finance is important there. Food processing... and some kind of grain exchange where certain futures are traded. I'm interested to research them since they seem to be doing well and I don't know much else about them.
Toronto - A truly global city. Financial center of Canada with a significant stock exchange. Media and film industries are huge there. Aerospace and other hi-tech industries. One of the most diverse and livable places on the planet.
Montreal - Shipping, largest inland port on earth. Rail industry including Bombardier. Aviation and aerospace. One of only 3 UNESCO Cities of design in the world. Architecture and graphic design are a huge to Montreal. Video game development. Being the largest French speaking city in North America also brings a lot to the economy. |
Thecarl
Member
Username: Thecarl
Post Number: 1445
Registered: 04-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 18, 2008 - 7:55 pm: | |
c'mon, english! you're embarrassing us! you were supposed to answer quick, like you were competing in the $10,000 pyramid! |
Englishkills
Member
Username: Englishkills
Post Number: 18
Registered: 10-2008
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 18, 2008 - 8:04 pm: | |
I just got home from work and saw where the discussion had headed on this post. I had a horrible commute getting home today. |
Thecarl
Member
Username: Thecarl
Post Number: 1446
Registered: 04-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 18, 2008 - 8:08 pm: | |
serenity now! |
Bearinabox
Member
Username: Bearinabox
Post Number: 1032
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 18, 2008 - 8:21 pm: | |
Commutingkills. |
Lefty2
Member
Username: Lefty2
Post Number: 2915
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 18, 2008 - 10:07 pm: | |
i still have yet to hear from anyone who does not want the indi to prosper. I do hear read from some that there needs to be corrections in the direction of what should happen. |
Ct_alum
Member
Username: Ct_alum
Post Number: 26
Registered: 10-2008
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 18, 2008 - 10:32 pm: | |
Englishkills:
Toronto? When was the last time you were there? Try picking up a Toronto Sun and reading about the multiple shootings they have every weekend......The place is slipping out of control - I dare you to walk down Yonge & Finch Streets any day and see how far you get. |
Thecarl
Member
Username: Thecarl
Post Number: 1447
Registered: 04-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 18, 2008 - 11:35 pm: | |
ct, you're right. i tried picking up a toronto sun - at the corner of yonge & finch. some young ruffians grabbed the paper and garotted me with it, then folded it into a blade, and stabbed me repeatedly. finally, someone folded a pistol into the rag and shot me. when i was taken into the emergency room, i was told that kind of thing happens all the time. that's what toronto is known for.
thanks for drawing attention to toronto's insalubrious reality, ct! |
Englishkills
Member
Username: Englishkills
Post Number: 19
Registered: 10-2008
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2008 - 10:54 am: | |
Ct_alum:
I'll have to look into the crime stats for Toronto. I didn't realize it was slipping out of control. Thanks for the update. You're right, I haven't been there in 3 or 4 years. Perhaps I managed to avoid the high-crime areas, although I usually try to see as much of the city I'm studying as possible.
I was writing an article for an academic journal regarding Toronto's ethnic composition at the time.
Maybe it's because I grew up in New York City - Queens in particular, in the 70s and 80s, but I have to say that for the most part Toronto seemed relatively calm, safe and vibrant to be, compared to some of the shit I've had to live with.
Bearinabox or anyone else:
Since my screen name has been brought up on several occasions in my first month or so on this forum, I will offer a prize to anyone who can explain what it means!
And I don't commute that far. I work in Midtown Manhattan and live in Brooklyn. Hope I didn't sound as though I was a commuter in the other sense of the word, meaning from somewhere else in the tri-state area to the City.
I don't take commuter rail. I take the train, meaning the subway. I just meant I had a commute as in a journey from home to work and it took longer than usual yesterday.
Anyway, who wants a transit related prize? |
Scarlet_crush
Member
Username: Scarlet_crush
Post Number: 20
Registered: 06-2008
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2008 - 12:16 pm: | |
English Kills, are you referring to the waterway in Brooklyn? Destroyed, polluted and stagnant due to industrial pollution? Once thriving and bringing prosperity and promise to the region, now destroyed through neglect and abuse? |
Ray
Member
Username: Ray
Post Number: 1167
Registered: 06-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2008 - 10:16 pm: | |
_sj_ the collapse of the Big Three will be a far greater human castrophe then 9/11 and Huricane Katrina. The thousands of lives that will be lost will lost over a decade in slow motion, silently, without media fanfare, from poor nutrion, crime, and poor health care and suicide. |
Ray
Member
Username: Ray
Post Number: 1168
Registered: 06-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2008 - 10:19 pm: | |
_sj_ the collapse of the Big Three will be a far greater human castrophe then 9/11 or Huricane Katrina. The tens of thousands of lives that will be lost will lost over a decade in slow motion, silently, without media fanfare, from poor nutrion, crime, and poor health care and suicide. |
Grumpyoldlady
Member
Username: Grumpyoldlady
Post Number: 280
Registered: 06-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 8:38 am: | |
Sustaining Detroit industry?? Methamphetamine manufacturing and distribution! With branches specializing in crack and pot.
Otherwise, how could people who never go to work afford $100,000+ homes in Detroit, and I'm not talking the fancy neighborhoods...I'm talking the 7/Kelly area. They can't all have a rich uncle. |
Englishkills
Member
Username: Englishkills
Post Number: 22
Registered: 10-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 1:29 pm: | |
Scarlet Crush is correct. My family used to build ships in the area of English Kills. That was a while ago...
I wouldn't say that the Newtown Creek and its tributaries including English Kills are beyond salvaging. Close, but not completely dead. |
Wfw
Member
Username: Wfw
Post Number: 338
Registered: 03-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 4:19 pm: | |
Toronto slipping out of control? That's a laugh. I've lived here for several years and I can assure you that's a gross exaggeration. The only thing slipping out of control is the cost of living, with even a modest house within city limits costing in the $500,000 range. There have been a few random shootings over the last few years, but so far Toronto's homicide total for 2008 is 61 - and that's for a city of 2.5 million (5.5 metro). |
Scarlet_crush
Member
Username: Scarlet_crush
Post Number: 21
Registered: 06-2008
| | Posted on Friday, November 21, 2008 - 5:15 pm: | |
I guess my prize is your acknowledgment? Woo hoo! Thanks!
When you said there was a transit related prize, I thought I was going to win a car or something. Hell, I'd be happy with a bus pass. |