 
_sj_
Member
Username: _sj_
Post Number: 2811
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 5:21 pm: |    |
quote:Screw Alabama.We whipped them at Little Round Top and the Wheatfield,July 1863.Hate them.Yes its a strong word,but I hate them.Next time a hurricane blows thru,go piss in wind but don't ask me for any cash.
Dude, not even comparable. That is as bad as the idiots who try to compare this to 9/11. |
Philbert
Member
Username: Philbert
Post Number: 415
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 5:54 pm: | |
for the record I am for the bailout.
But just remember an awful lot is being asked considering the quality of the products that have been sold previously for decades and now. A lot of people spend thousands on repairs and because of that put off purchases of other items, didn't pay down this or that loan, had an unreliable car they couldn't afford to replace and really struggled financially with the vehicle they purchased all the while the auto workers and executives lived extremely well. A wealthy person can recover fast from a bad vehicle purchased but a working person loses it all. It not like a bad Cell Phone made by Motorola and you swear by Sanyo now. That only costs little in perspective but it is the same concept with autos.
Also dismissing other industries as not as good or viable, such as the restaurant industry, is a poor way to gain sympathy or support. An employee at Circuit City still has to live to.
Also for the record it is mighty ironic a guy from Alabama complaining about tax dollars and an auto bailout when he represents a state that gets back billions a year more in federal spending than that state contributes towards the federal government and especially ironic that Michigan pays billions a year more in federal taxes than it gets back in spending from the federal government. |
Lilpup
Member
Username: Lilpup
Post Number: 5702
Registered: 06-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 6:03 pm: | |
Exactly how does a well-maintained vehicle with a factory warranty end up costing someone thousands of dollars in repairs anyway? |
Luckycar
Member
Username: Luckycar
Post Number: 122
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 6:04 pm: | |
I know in my heart this will be worse than 9/11 for us in Michigan,sj.How many lives will be destroyed here due to broken homes,crime,drugs,child neglect,lack of money for schools and police.It is our 9/11 and those planes are heading for for our state.There,I just did the comparison.I'm an idiot sj,but not from Alabama.We need a little understanding,a little credit,a better plan,and Pelosi Waxman Ried and the idiots on the hill to stop piling on for a few years.
Just wondering,where is Barry O?Shouldn't the Pres. elect say something?He is still a senator.Doesn't he have a mouth,speak up.Damm I get mad,I may have to stop reading DY until this all shakes out! |
Lodgedodger
Member
Username: Lodgedodger
Post Number: 944
Registered: 05-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 6:10 pm: | |
It ends up costing money because of stuff that's not covered under warranty. Transmission issues--that's a big one. Even though a car is well-maintained and not misused, design flaws and mechanical issues can be costly. |
Lilpup
Member
Username: Lilpup
Post Number: 5703
Registered: 06-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 6:21 pm: | |
design flaws are covered under warranty or recall
(including transmissions) |
Philbert
Member
Username: Philbert
Post Number: 416
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 6:44 pm: | |
under warranty the problems are often not resolved and go into the warranty is up. Just like my last well maintained, followed scheduled everything, GM car and had to have the engine replaced 15,000 miles after the warranty was up, also not everyone can afford to buy a new car everytime the warranty is up. |
Lilpup
Member
Username: Lilpup
Post Number: 5704
Registered: 06-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 6:53 pm: | |
No, you don't buy a new car. If you suspect you have a car that has issues you buy an extended warranty. Everyone was telling me my car would need a news trans before I got rid of it so I bought an extended warranty just before my factory one ran out. I never needed a new trans. I did have two non-manufacturer shops TELL me I needed one, but I did not. That is not the manufacturer's fault.
I also observed someone bring a relatively new Japanese SUV into our shop one day with a blown engine at 50,000 miles...she finally admitted she had never changed the oil...
What year, make, and model GM did you have? |
Philbert
Member
Username: Philbert
Post Number: 417
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 7:11 pm: | |
^most people do not make as much as an auto worker. not everyone has money sitting around like that and not no one wants another bill because of quality issues.
buy an extended warranty for the quality problems. and now you want the american people to bail out the auto industry.
like bad meals in a restaurant you won't go back. except you are only out $20 or something not thousands. |
Lilpup
Member
Username: Lilpup
Post Number: 5705
Registered: 06-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 7:39 pm: | |
People like you told me I would have problems with my car even though I never had. Since I intended to keep my car for at least another five years I bought the warranty just in case, but never had cause to use it.
You still haven't given any detail to back up your sob story of poor GM quality/high repair expense. |
Alan55
Member
Username: Alan55
Post Number: 2418
Registered: 09-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 7:42 pm: | |
Phil: "Alan55, you have no clue where I am from but I will say again insulting people will gain you no sympathy."
Take your own advice, Phil. You were the outsider who came onto a forum for a place he's never been, talking about an industry he knows nothing about, and started lecturing in an insulting manner.
Johnlodge, come off your soapbox. If Phil can't defend his opinions, tough - he doesn't need a mother superior like you defending him. |
Lefty2
Member
Username: Lefty2
Post Number: 2946
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 7:46 pm: | |
Leno helps the PR campaign for Detroit.
Sometimes helping an industry helps all. http://www.freep.com/article/2 0081120/ENT03/81120085
“I can’t believe they give these sleazeball financial guys a bailout and not people who actually make a product,” he said. “It’s amazing to me.”
“They have great products in the pipeline,” said Leno. “The Volt is a terrific concept that will surpass the Prius.” |
Thames
Member
Username: Thames
Post Number: 311
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 8:46 pm: | |
We have 3 Ford's. Two have over 100k on them. All have been reliable. I've never had to retrieve my family from the side of the road, never had out of the ordinary expenditures, just the usual, brakes, tires, oil change etc.
Don't know about GM these days. However, my neighbor down the street swears by them and we have a 72' GTO. We love it!
Sorry about your luck Philbert, and comparing the auto industry to the restaurant business as it relates to the economy is like comparing apple and oranges.
Losing domestic manufacturing capacity and the billions in lost tax revenue is a lot different than a restaurant closing because they serve shitty food. As you say, a lot of restaurant workers don't make a lot of money, that means they pay little or no taxes at all.
You think you don't have any ties to the auto industry, just wait until you are expected to pick up the slack ($$$) that they leave behind. Not only will you be liable for the tax revenue that they no longer generate for this country, but you will have to feed all the people they once employed.
I don't care how you try to slice it, the analogy does not hold water.
I say, give them the loan, with strict guidelines, no more AIG fucking bullshit, and keep these industries viable through these turbulent financial times.
BTW, I'm going over to the "Words and phrases to eliminate" thread right now to add the word "bailout". It's not a fucking bailout, it's a LOAN. |
Retroit
Member
Username: Retroit
Post Number: 498
Registered: 04-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 9:06 pm: | |
Philbert, thank you for taking us on; I welcome your difference of opinion on this matter. If you ever have 2 crappy foreign cars, I hope you will give the US automakers another chance. I agree, quality was a problem in the past, but Toyota had quality problems once, too. They learned how to make a better car by carefully observing the US automakers. Now we are learning from them that quality does matter. And I am grateful to everyone who bought a foreign car, because it forced the US automakers to realize how important quality is, and that is good for all of us.
Regarding restaurant vs. auto industry:
The basic building block of a modern economy is its manufacturing sector. Without that, you can not sustain all the secondary service sectors. History will prove this: from England to the US to Japan to the smaller Asian countries to China and India now. The prosperity in all these countries was fed by the introduction of the manufacturing sector. |
Pffft
Member
Username: Pffft
Post Number: 1820
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 9:37 pm: | |
Sorry I got the Lodges mixed up...
Don't be sorry about my brother's bad Suburu experience, like many of us he had to go through it in order to understand that Asian cars are not bulletproof. He now has a Ford Edge and is much happier.
But that isn't "conventional wisdom," which Philbert comes on here spouting, about how of course "everybody knows" Asian cars are of a higher quality. Why are you even engaging with someone who clearly doesn't understand the industry, or care to try? |
Philbert
Member
Username: Philbert
Post Number: 418
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 9:57 pm: | |
dismiss the customers, they don't know what they want!
look at the market share of u.s. autos in america over the years. clearly i'm not the only one who feels this way.
maybe detroit really does need a reality check if they think the customer is wrong and should prefer their product. |
Retroit
Member
Username: Retroit
Post Number: 501
Registered: 04-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 10:02 pm: | |
The decrease in market share is due to the introduction of foreign competitors. If you own the only restaurant in town, everyone eats there. If another restaurant opens, your business is cut in half. |
Pffft
Member
Username: Pffft
Post Number: 1821
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 10:39 pm: | |
Plus, what do the customers want?
They wanted big ass SUVs.
Nancy Pelosi and Henry Waxman want fuel efficient vehicles, but the American public has clamored for Ford F-150s, Escalades and Envoys.
Philbert, you just betray with every post that you know nothing of the industry you criticize. |
Philbert
Member
Username: Philbert
Post Number: 419
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 10:51 pm: | |
and now they don't want SUV's |
Pffft
Member
Username: Pffft
Post Number: 1824
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 11:19 pm: | |
That only happened after gas skyrocketed.
How do you think those Toyota Tundras are doing?
Funny thing... those foreign auto plants based in the South, that those screaming Republican senators are so bent on protecting ...they all make guess what? Big old gas guzzlers.
How do you think that's working out?
Here's a photo and story, Philbert, that will educate you on the economic meltdown we're in. Your favorite automakers aren't doing so well, either. Maybe you'd better go visit Tokyoyes and tell them what they're doing wrong.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11 /19/business/economy/19ports.h tml |
Philbert
Member
Username: Philbert
Post Number: 420
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 11:29 pm: | |
"How do you think those Toyota Tundras are doing?"
Toyota is not near bankruptcy and doesn't need a bailout. They have other products that could more keep up with what the CONSUMER WANTED than the big three.
They didn't most all of their eggs in one basket. They were smart and they have quality cars, cars that most importantly the consumer feels are good quality and the product they want. |
Pffft
Member
Username: Pffft
Post Number: 1825
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 11:37 pm: | |
Proof? They're doing well...because you say so?
Provide a link.
I gave one, "A Sea of Unwanted Imports," from the New York Times. |
Philbert
Member
Username: Philbert
Post Number: 421
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 11:44 pm: | |
Toyota I didn't say was doing well, I said they are no where near bankruptcy. For the current fiscal year for Toyota they are projected to make a profit of 6 billion dollars.
A 6 billion dollar profit is no where near needing a bailout. |
Pffft
Member
Username: Pffft
Post Number: 1826
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 11:46 pm: | |
You might try updating your 1975 perspective on imports vs. domestic. Ever hear of the Chevy Malibu? Top-ranked in the mid-size car class for quality, sales are up 39% even in this year of economic free-fall, and it gets 33 mpg.
Oh wait! Detroit doesn't build cars like that. Must be a Toyota in disguise. |
Lilpup
Member
Username: Lilpup
Post Number: 5707
Registered: 06-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 11:51 pm: | |
"A 6 billion dollar profit is no where near needing a bailout."
It is if the company needs a loan or asset mortgage to boost CASH ON HAND and can't get it.
You don't even understand the problem. |
Philbert
Member
Username: Philbert
Post Number: 422
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 21, 2008 - 12:09 am: | |
and you don't understand the consumer, the most important part here, outside of Michigan.
sayonara |
Pffft
Member
Username: Pffft
Post Number: 1828
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 21, 2008 - 12:23 am: | |
You keep saying goodbye, but you're still here, Philbert.
You have no idea how many times this town has had to rip out its guts and reinvent itself. Detroit is tougher than you will ever know, and bids you sayonara as well. |
Otter
Member
Username: Otter
Post Number: 395
Registered: 12-2007
| | Posted on Friday, November 21, 2008 - 12:34 am: | |
Is this 6th grade now or something?
And what's with the ritual demand of "proof!" everyone someone says something that someone else doesn't agree with?
"It is if the company needs a loan or asset mortgage to boost CASH ON HAND and can't get it."
What are you trying to say? It doesn't make much sense.
As far as cash goes, Toyota, while getting clobbered this fall like everyone else, is still making money, and they have huge amounts of cash, something like $50 billion, I think. |
Lilpup
Member
Username: Lilpup
Post Number: 5708
Registered: 06-2004
| | Posted on Friday, November 21, 2008 - 1:00 am: | |
It's possible to be profitable and not have enough cash on hand to function, in which case the company could end up in a situation like GM is now.
It's also possible to be unprofitable and have enough cash on hand to function, which is Ford's recent condition.
Cash on hand and profitability are not the same thing.
You could have a million in the bank but if the bank (credit market) is closed for whatever reason, you have only $5 cash in your pocket but need more for something, and the ATM just ate your card - you're screwed, kinda like GM. |
Otter
Member
Username: Otter
Post Number: 397
Registered: 12-2007
| | Posted on Friday, November 21, 2008 - 1:06 am: | |
Yes, i get that, but....
Philbert was explicitly talking about Toyota, which is well-known to have epic quantities of cash.
It sounded like a chilidsh response.
Not trying to be the house mother, just encourage a more substantial converstion than verbal girl-slapping. |
Lilpup
Member
Username: Lilpup
Post Number: 5709
Registered: 06-2004
| | Posted on Friday, November 21, 2008 - 1:38 am: | |
What Philbert said - "A 6 billion dollar profit is no where near needing a bailout" - is a generalization not always true and does not show an understanding of the immediate issue. The immediate issue IS NOT about profitability. |
Ct_alum
Member
Username: Ct_alum
Post Number: 28
Registered: 10-2008
| | Posted on Friday, November 21, 2008 - 9:11 pm: | |
Toyota has no current cash worries because they have no legacy costs. Go into their plants in Canada (I have) and you will not see an employee (Oops! I mean "Team Member") over 40 years old, even fewer women and NO black people. This is not an accident folks............... |
Lmichigan
Member
Username: Lmichigan
Post Number: 6439
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, November 22, 2008 - 12:49 am: | |
No, they don't have cash worries because their financial system isn't shot. They are able to borrow cheaply from conventional sources. Detroit is not. One of the biggest myths is that Detroit (domestic autos) is in its particular survival mode, right now because of its own fault. The truth is that the domestics were very much on a downward trend, but up until the financial crisis the worst thing that was happening is that GM was going to fall from number one to number two in production. Contrary to popular belief, GM was not fighting for its imminent survival before the credit crisis. This particular situation is the result of the domestics not being able to borrow from conventional sources, not because of company policies. Dare I say if the Japanese autos were headquartered in this country, right now, they may still have been healthier than the existing Big Three, but they'd be hard pressed to borrow from conventional sources, as well.
That's not even to get into the Japanese paying for their autos R&D and their unions not being saddled with having to fight for health care.
(Message edited by lmichigan on November 22, 2008) |
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