  Lowell Moderator Username: Lowell Post Number: 5182 Registered: 09-2003 |
Huge news eh? It appears the Stephen Harper's move to consolidate his minority government Prime Ministership of Canada has blown up in his face. Three minority majority parties, including most importantly the Bloc Quebecois, have cut a deal and are backing Stéphane Dion, leader of the liberals, for Prime Minister. This has to be almost gleeful for Stéphane Dion who was ridiculed for his flawed English and seemingly headed into political oblivion following the losses of his party in the last election. Suddenly he is on the doorstep. Now I know a lot of northsiders may be oblivious ot this, but if you are a political junkie at all you know this is a huge and extremely rare political event. So to the our friends on the southside I ask, "Whaddup?" Good or bad for Windsor ergo Detroit? Since Windsor is NDP and NDP gets five portfolio is this good for Windsor? | ||
Gannon Member Username: Gannon Post Number: 14837 Registered: 12-2003 |
This reminds me of the first time I ever heard a Cricket score on the BBC. | ||
Mortgageking Member Username: Mortgageking Post Number: 258 Registered: 12-2006 |
Reminds me of this: http://www.hulu.com/watch/3816 9/late-night-with-conan-obrien -federal-assumption-of-debt-sm all-talk-moment-10708 | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 6478 Registered: 10-2003 |
I thought Stéphane Dion had resigned? To be honest, I do wonder how long this is going to last, and particularly if Dion is at the head of this restructured coalition. It'd have probably have been best to wait until everything had settled down and the left to have rebuilt itself for this to have happened. This all sounds a bit rushed. What are the polls on this? Obviously they must have polled this to think it was a good idea to topple a freshly-reelected Conservative government. I don't know; I'm skeptical to say the least. | ||
Lowell Moderator Username: Lowell Post Number: 5184 Registered: 09-2003 |
Dion was down and out, headed out the door, his own party coming at him with daggers and all. Now he's all smiles. This seems to be all Stephen Harper's doing. He thought he was slick in calling the Oct. election and then announces he was going to cut funding to the opposition parties and made himself, never very popular to start with, the issue. Final straw. The only remotely similar thing we could experience would be where a presidential candidate won a large number of the electoral votes, but not a majority, which was in hands of three parties who hated the winner so much they swallowed their own extreme differences and voted for a candidate who only won 25% of the vote. What is going on is largely unprecedented. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 7571 Registered: 08-2004 |
I was watching the Canadian Channel 32 (TVO) today, and they were discussing the problem of just how long a coalition minority government will stay in power... especially with the whims of the Party Quebecois? One option that was discussed (and hasn't been invoked since the early 20th century) was for Stephen Harper to ask Canada's Governor General Michaelle Jean (appointed by Queen Elizabeth) to dissolve parliament and thus call for new elections. From a historical perspective this is highly unlikely, but not unprecedented. If so, this would be the 4th parliamentary elections in 4 years... a bit much a lot of Canadians believe. I was just reading up on the Canadian parliamentary system, and was surprised to find that the Governor General is not only the queens representative of the Crown in Canada, but also the "Commander-in-Chief" of Canada's armed forces. (Although this is a figure head position.) Also what was discussed on the show was that the fact that minority parties in a coalition government historically fare very poorly in subsequent Canadian elections. It's interesting that just like Queen Elizabeth can dissolve the British Parliament, the Governor General of Canada can do the same there. Here's some interesting facts about the Canadian office of Governor General: http://www.gg.ca/gg/rr/index_e .asp | ||
Lowell Moderator Username: Lowell Post Number: 5186 Registered: 09-2003 |
And, interestingly, Michaëlle Jean is a Haitian who came to Canada when she was 11. Now she thrust to the front in this most curious situation. Quite a year for two descendants of Africa. | ||
Texorama Member Username: Texorama Post Number: 321 Registered: 12-2006 |
Also interesting is that the Governor General is not Canadian by birth but Haitian. She seems unlikely to be terribly sympathetic to Stephen Harper. I personally like Stéphane Dion, whose global warming proposals have been the most detailed of those advanced by any leader in a Western democracy. However, he's playing with fire; the presence of the Quebec separatists in the coalition is sheer craziness. And whoever gets the government now could end up with the blame for the worst of the recession. Anything could happen, including Harper eventually coming back stronger than before if the coalition does indeed go through. | ||
Mikeg Member Username: Mikeg Post Number: 2111 Registered: 12-2005 |
They're baaaack! It appears that the Liberal Party of Canada, the party of the brainiacs who came up with "AdScam", have foisted yet another scam on the Canadian electorate.  The Three Stooges of "CoupScam" So much for all that NDP and Bloc Québécois fiery rhetoric in 2006 about corruption in the Liberal Party of Canada. | ||
Aiw Member Username: Aiw Post Number: 6821 Registered: 10-2003 |
Here is the situation in a nutshell: The Harper government just made a move and it blew up. The next step is a vote of "confidence" in the house. The opposition parties will propose a bill in the house stating that they have lost confidence in the ability of the Conservatives to govern. This is called a motion of No Confidence. Five times in Canadian history the house has fallen in a confidence vote. Arthur Meighen (1926) John Diefenbaker (1963) Pierre Trudeau (1974) Joe Clark (1979) Paul Martin (2005) Trudeau lost a motion of confidence when he failed to pass the 1974 budget. However, it was later revealed that this was done purposely by Prime Minister Trudeau in a successful attempt to win a majority government. This is the only time the tactic has been used in federal Canadian politics, but it established a precedent. Such a tactic is now called "engineering the defeat of one's own government", and the practice is widely frowned upon. While Meighen, Diefenbaker and Trudeau were toppled by loss of supply, and Joe Clark was defeated by the passage of a subamendment to a budget bill that read "that this House has lost confidence in the government," only Paul Martin lost an actual motion of no confidence put forward by the opposition parties. That vote is due to take place on December 8th. Tune in to CBC if you can, it will likely be carried live as breaking news. There are three possible scenarios: Prior to the vote, the PM Steven Harper could ask the Governor General to prorogue parliament, and suspend the parliament until the new year. This is a stalling tactic, and would prevent the vote from taking place. The constitution of Canada only says that the house of commons only has to sit once a year (which it has). Proroguing it would delay the vote until the new year. However it would be seen as a cowardly act, and a desperate ploy to cling to power by the Conservative party. Plus the risk exists that the G.G. could refuse the request. The second scenario is after losing the vote of confidence, the G.G. could dissolve parliament, and call for a new election, less than 8 weeks after our last one. This is what would normally happen, however... The third and most likely scenario is one where the opposition parties are invited by the G.G. to form the government. This is very rare, and has only ever happened once before in Canadian history and it caused an uproar. It occurred in 1926, and is known as the King-Byng affair. quote: If the Liberal/NDP coalition happens, this would be the first ever coalition government in Canadian history. While at heart I am a Conservative supporter, I hate Steven Harper, and haven't voted Conservative since he's been leader. There was a political satire magazine in Canada called Frank (that just recently folded), they called Harper - "President Steven W. Harper". I would be very surprised if the coalition happens that NDP Joe Comartin of Windsor doesn't end up with a cabinet post. Either way, if you are a political junkie stay tuned. What ever happens over the next few weeks will end up in the history books... | ||
Aiw Member Username: Aiw Post Number: 6822 Registered: 10-2003 |
Looking at the results of the last election, the Conservatives won 143 of 301 seats. They received 37.6% of the vote. The Liberals & NDP combined won 113 seats, but garnered 44.4% of the vote. With the 50 Bloc Québecois seats the coalition would have 163 seats. The BQ would remain the wild card. They could pull their support at anytime, and topple the house of cards. In the news the G.G. is on her way back from a European Trip: http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story /2008/12/02/gg-return.html?ref =rss quote: The CBC also has a coalition FAQ online... http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story /2008/11/28/f-faq-coalition.ht ml | ||
401don Member Username: 401don Post Number: 883 Registered: 11-2007 |
Having the Bloc, whose goal is to have Quebec separate from Canada, form part of the ruling gov't would be the ultimate joke. Maybe it would be enough to push a rich conservative province like Alberta to have their own referendum on separation. Either way, Windsor, like Detroit, is so far in the economic crapper right now that none of this is going to have much effect on it for the next few years. | ||
Raptor56 Member Username: Raptor56 Post Number: 657 Registered: 05-2007 |
and you folks think US politics are screwy?? You have an unelected official with the power to change the balance of power, and a fractured system of political parties that can't seem to compromise. | ||
Lowell Moderator Username: Lowell Post Number: 5188 Registered: 09-2003 |
Yeah, ^ but Cromartin in the Cabinet can't hurt. Every scrap counts. Thanks for all the great details AIW. The BQ is definitely the x-factor. In someways perhaps there is a glimmer of hope that a taste of power will cause them to shy away from their total separation tendencies and perhaps become a part of Canada. As long as the remaining left is split among the liberals, NDP and greens with the conservatives left as the greatest of the lessers, the BQ holds the cards. After all even Harper flirted with them. If the nationalist issue did not exist they would fall solidly on the left side; so it is not surprising that, on most issues, they would be agreeable with the liberals and NDP. This could work. Nonetheless, Dion's resurrection has to be the greatest since Lazarus. Meanwhile, the look on Harper's face is to die for - something between crying and vomiting. It all makes for great viewing and exciting politics. Tune in to the National at 10 on 9. | ||
Lowell Moderator Username: Lowell Post Number: 5189 Registered: 09-2003 |
quote:You mean like George Bush in 2000?  | ||
Bussey Member Username: Bussey Post Number: 706 Registered: 12-2003 |
You do realize you are talking about Canadian politics and not beer aye? | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 6485 Registered: 10-2003 |
I don't know what you love so much about Dion, Lowell. Harper may be a dick, but putting Dion at the head of the new coalition just seems to be asking for a short-term coalition and the return of Harper. In theory, the coalition looks nice, but from what I've been able to tell their message still seems to be little more than that "we're not the Conservatives". How long they can sustain that remains to be seen. I really hope that I'm wrong. | ||
Walkerpub Member Username: Walkerpub Post Number: 216 Registered: 12-2003 |
Concerning the Tories: If Harper had won a majority we wouldn't be having the conversation. I say: "Off with their heads!" | ||
Aiw Member Username: Aiw Post Number: 6823 Registered: 10-2003 |
The best thing about the Bloc holding the balance of power is that it will likely cause the restoration of funding for the arts. Harper's chop of arts funding turned off many Québec voters, and caused them to vote BQ versus Conservative. His miscalculated backlash over arts funding cost him a majority. The BQ would insist that it is restored. | ||
Aiw Member Username: Aiw Post Number: 6824 Registered: 10-2003 |
For reference: quote: http://www.thestar.com/Federal Election/article/504811 | ||
Walkerpub Member Username: Walkerpub Post Number: 217 Registered: 12-2003 |
Good backgrounder for our US friends concerning this so-called "coup" http://www.windsorstar.com/cou p+dean+says/1023853/story.html | ||
Goat Member Username: Goat Post Number: 10566 Registered: 10-2003 |
Legally they are allowed to do this but the only confidence issue is that the parties still wanted to use taxpayers dollars to support their endeavours (to which I think is putrid). The Conservatives caved on this idea so why are these idiots continuing on? NOTHING MORE THAN A POWER GRAB! This is nothing short of a coup but doing it by legal means especially when an election was only called 6 weeks back! The CANADIAN PEOPLE decided they wanted another minority Conservative gov't (to which they gained even more seats than previously held)and that is what they got. What is even more galling is the fact they are using a traitor to help their cause, Giles Duceppe. Don't think for a moment this isn't cost us big not only in terms of money but in terms of an unbalanced country. The sad thing is that the liberals have this odd sense of liberal gov't only mentality. They have had power for more 60% of the entire 20th century. I guess absolute power corrupts absolutely. Layton is nothing but a greasy used car salesmen who would sell his mother's soul for a taste of power, Dion a lame-duck no confidence "leader" and Duceppe the traitor...gee, nice "coalition". To add insult to injury just we are going through the worst economic crisis since WWII they pull this stunt. This is the time to show confidence and strength not tear a country apart! Besides, both left leaning parties (NDP liberal) believe that HIGHER corporate taxes are the answer! Imagine that in this fragile economy? We are fucked! This just shows nothing but disdain for the election process, for the taxpaying public and for all voters regardless of who you voted for. What a waste of $300 million! Well if they can revolt, so should the citizens and not allow this to happen. If this so-called coalition thinks they are the answer then let's go to the polls again and let the voters decide, yet again who should be in power. This is nothing more than 2nd world politics without the guns. | ||
Lowell Moderator Username: Lowell Post Number: 5192 Registered: 09-2003 |
LMich, I don't "love" or hate Dion, I am quite neutral toward him. If I were Candadian I would probably vote NDP even if I am not overly fond of Jack Layton. What I do love is this story, being the political junkie that I am, because it is one of historic and, from yesterday's session in Parliament, hysteric proportions. It also has Greek drama aspect in that it has centered around the pride and arrogance of Stephen Harper. Walkerpub hit the nail on the head. If Harper had won a majority we wouldn't be having this conversation. I would even venture to say that if his party had even topped 40% we might not be having this conversation. To think two sub 40% wins gives him a mandate to walk over the other 60% points out his personal flaws. Whining that someone with 25% will be PM when you only have 38% yourself is a pot meet kettle. I can't wait for the knives to come out for him in the Conservative party for blowing this one. | ||
Raptor56 Member Username: Raptor56 Post Number: 662 Registered: 05-2007 |
Watched The National last night for a bit. Seems rather ironic that Dion the Separatist was speaking of bringing Canadians together. Amazing the change of heart that happens when all of a sudden you have the potential to take power... | ||
Raptor56 Member Username: Raptor56 Post Number: 663 Registered: 05-2007 |
Also find it interesting that all these shinanigans going on just over the border are not being covered by Fox News or CNN. Nothing on either site's front page | ||
Goat Member Username: Goat Post Number: 10569 Registered: 10-2003 |
Lowell, that is Canadian politics and percentages don't mean anything. I don't know why people bring it up. What DOES matter is the number of seats. Debate parliamentary systems all you like but this has nothing to do with what is happening and that is the utter contempt these ego-filled assholes have for the electorate. The NDP won't even answer their phone today...NONE OF THEM! They are nothing but cowards! If they really cared they would at least wait for the budget to be tabled on Jan .27/09, then if the people don't like it they can topple the gov't. Until then I will call it what it is, a power grab by the entitled-minded liberals with Jack orchestrating the demise of Canada utilizing a traitorous BQ party. (I still think it is disgusting that taxpayers pay for 80% of the opposition's money. Nothing like using taxpayers dollars to fund a separatist's agenda. I guess that is o.k. in Jack Layton's and your own book, but not mine!) | ||
Walkerpub Member Username: Walkerpub Post Number: 218 Registered: 12-2003 |
Goat- nice try concerning the number of seats, but the bottom line is that Harper pulled the trigger, called a very cynical election when one wasn't needed (to the tune of $300,000,000) and thought he could achieve a majority of seats but didn't quite make the mark- can anyone say "Al Gore?" | ||
Aiw Member Username: Aiw Post Number: 6825 Registered: 10-2003 |
Harper is to address the nation tonight at 7:00 pm. Get your rabbit ears out to tune into CBC or watch it live streaming online, on CPAC (Canadian version of C-SPAN) http://www.cpac.ca | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 7578 Registered: 08-2004 |
So Harper cut Arts funding... sounds like another John Engler to me...  | ||
Aiw Member Username: Aiw Post Number: 6826 Registered: 10-2003 |
AM800 CKLW has announced that they will carry Harper's address live at 7:00 pm. You can tune in that way if so inclined as well. | ||
Goat Member Username: Goat Post Number: 10572 Registered: 10-2003 |
I'll bite Walkerpub. O.k $300 mill was spent but what an even bigger waste to now throw that election in the toilet. Personally I am glad they still have a minority (I am in the same boat as AIW) and not the majority but had it come down to this BS I would rather a Conservative majority than the crap I am seeing now. | ||
Walkerpub Member Username: Walkerpub Post Number: 219 Registered: 12-2003 |
I liked the last minority government much better- seemed like lots was accomplished with checks and balances on all sides- this one is a little wackier but also there is much testosterone involved... | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 6488 Registered: 10-2003 |
Goat, you kind of lose your credibility when you go total drama queen on the issue with all of the all-caps type and referring to your fellow countryman as a "traitor". That has all of the venom attached to calling someone "un-American" down in these parts. It's really sad, because I think one can oppose this coalition without having to go bat-shit crazy and dropping some serious rhetorical bombs and charges. | ||
Lowell Moderator Username: Lowell Post Number: 5194 Registered: 09-2003 |
Whaaat? Goat get animated? Never. I wonder if the end result will be the conservatives rule but Harper gets tossed over. | ||
Irish_mafia Member Username: Irish_mafia Post Number: 1479 Registered: 10-2003 |
So does this mean that Dion gives up her singing career? | ||
Aiw Member Username: Aiw Post Number: 6827 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: That's one scenario I've heard. Harper asks the Gov. General to suspend parliament today at 9:30 am, and she complies. Harper (who is responsible for this mess) steps down, and a new leader takes over the party and becomes interim PM. Industry minister Jim Prentice's name has been tossed about. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J im_Prentice http://conservativesforprentic e.blogspot.com/2008/11/welcome -to-conservatives-for-prentice .html Either way, if Harper is tossed aside, I could be persuaded to vote Conservative again. | ||
Goat Member Username: Goat Post Number: 10577 Registered: 10-2003 |
I too have heard teh same thing. I think it would be great if Harper was tossed. Some pundits think Peter MacKay would then lead the Conservatives which I don't mind at all. Prentice wouldn't be a bad choice either. LMichigan. What drama? This to me is disgusting that these people would make backroom deals with a separatist party who's only goal is to separate from Canada by whatever means necessary. Dion, the architect of the much hated Clarity Act must be giving something to the BQ to court their vote? But that is one slippery slope to be dancing near. As for Layton he was already delaing with the BQ before the election to try and trigger this. Tell me I am wrong or being over dramatic? These are facts. When a person goes to bed with a party that wants to split Canada apart (which is a party that is a traitor to the nation that give it their funding) then that person is a traitor as well. One of the biggest reasons I am pissed is because the NDP orechstrated this and then coulnd't and won't fact the electorate. Instead they ingore those who try and call. I only call it as I see it. Drama? Yep lots of it going on at Parliament Hill. | ||
Texorama Member Username: Texorama Post Number: 322 Registered: 12-2006 |
Looks like it's not happening--Parliament will be suspended or "prorogued" (truly a $64,000 [Can.] word): http://www.google.com/hostedne ws/canadianpress/article/ALeqM 5hsWCWQwAlsJNxzi0bVvj3XuJ5wlw | ||
Walkerpub Member Username: Walkerpub Post Number: 220 Registered: 12-2003 |
I still can't imagine Dion as the Prime Minister- he produced one of the worst showings of a Liberal in 20th century- and he gets a shot at the top job- WTF! | ||
Goat Member Username: Goat Post Number: 10581 Registered: 10-2003 |
At least Harper is willing to talk to the opposition about the budget that is to be tabled on Jan 27th. yet these parties are still talking coalition with no plan themselves. So either they come to a compromise or an election will be called in January. by the way it looks like the coalition is cracking as a few liberal MP's have stated Dion should just step down now. Not a power grab? You tell me. | ||
Lowell Moderator Username: Lowell Post Number: 5197 Registered: 09-2003 |
Sounds like the first polls are running against the coalition, although at 44-24 cons - lib it is not overwhelming. I am finding the heated exchanges extreme for Canadian discourse, as if they have picked up some usa manners. | ||
Aiw Member Username: Aiw Post Number: 6830 Registered: 10-2003 |
Back to the ballot box please! Harper's gambled and lost. He needs to go too... | ||
Goat Member Username: Goat Post Number: 10594 Registered: 10-2003 |
Agreed. Looking forward to an election and I hope Harper steps down as he should. He blew it (and has blown it for some time)and needs to go as head of the Conservatives. Lowell, the reason it is so heated is that many people in Canada (somewhere around 84%) believe that this is wrong for the opposition parties to try and remove the gov't. It was released today that 74% of the population feared for the country because of the backroom deals going on. Most voters feel duped and many are now so disenfranchised many said they won't vote again as all of the "leaders", regardless of party are anything but. Which I have to agree. Truly, where is the leadership the western world once had? | ||
Jams Member Username: Jams Post Number: 9789 Registered: 10-2003 |
It won't be Dion. quote: http://www.reuters.com/article /bondsNews/idUSOTW000204200812 10 | ||
Raptor56 Member Username: Raptor56 Post Number: 672 Registered: 05-2007 |
This whole fiasco illustrates the inherent problem with Parliamentary government vs a Presidential style of government. In the parliamentary system, everyone is elected first, then, once in office, they barter and bicker over who becomes the leader. All of the compromising and backroom stuff is done after they are all elected, and if they fail to come to a consensus, the whole election process starts over again. In a Presidential system (like the USA), all of the compromising and backroom bartering for party leadership and power control is primarily done BEFORE elections, so once elections are complete, everyone in government knows their role and are theoretically ready to "serve" the people. | ||
Jams Member Username: Jams Post Number: 9792 Registered: 10-2003 |
Well, except for Al Haig's "I am in charge!" | ||
Dtowncitylover Member Username: Dtowncitylover Post Number: 415 Registered: 02-2008 |
I prefer the parliamentary system over presidential. It makes the nation's leader alot more accountable towards the people because of the Question Period (at least in British parliamentary systems, like UK, Canada, Australia, and NZ). The problem with presidential system is that the president is too cut off from the people. Bus doesn't have to answer directly to people, of course that's the press secretary's job. And those press questions the president get to answer every few months does nothing. But America would never want a Prime Minister, that's too British and that's what we fought against. | ||
Raptor56 Member Username: Raptor56 Post Number: 668 Registered: 05-2007 |
I agree that the Question Period would be a good idea, even in a presidential system. I have watched the UK Question Period on C-SPAN a number of times. Rather interesting. In my opinion the Parliamentary System allows the leader to be totally unaccountable. In the Presidential System, voters "elect" a leader. Regardless of which party is in charge, that guy is THE leader, and owes his election and re-election to the people. In the Parliamentary system, the people elect members of the parties, and then the party members choose the leader. All the leader has to do is keep his fellow party cronies happy, and he keeps his job. You get a case like this one where the opposition parties see an opportunity for a power grab, and with the parliamentary system, they have the ability to take it. Now instead of a clear elected leader, the people of Canada are stuck with whoever the "in power at the moment" party/coalition prop up as Prime Minister. If electing a leader by the people, I guarantee there'd be no way in heck a bloc leader would be elected, yet, up until recently, Dion would have been the Prime Minister, if everything had panned out. |
