  Flanders_field Member Username: Flanders_field Post Number: 1383 Registered: 01-2008 |
I posted the same link on the conservative website Townhall and it was met with a firestorm of hate towards the automakers, Detroit and Michigan. For example: "We can build tanks and carriers and hummvees just fine. We don't need to build Corvairs. "This is all about Big Labor. Screw em." "Let em DIE!" "Turn Detroit into a kind of Labor Toxic Waste Cleanup Squad." The Japanese automakers must be overjoyed to learn that most of the US could not care less if it's domestic auto manufacturers survive, and as demonstrated above, many are actually rooting for them to crash and burn. It is no use to try to explain to these idiots what the potential economic consequences would be to the US economy. Below is a link to an interesting article by the National Labor Committee about Toyota: The Toyota You Don’t Know "By April 2008, the Wall Street Journal was reporting that “Toyota Motor Company is now pushing to lower labor costs in the U.S., say people familiar with the matter….Toyota has stopped pegging its wages to UAW rates when it builds new plants, company executives said. It won't cut wages of current workers, but new hires will be paid no more than 50 percent above the prevailing manufacturing wage in the area where a plant is located, they said.” In fact, months earlier, in September 2007, an internal memo was leaked at Toyota’s giant Georgetown, Kentucky plant laying out management’s plans to cut $300 million in labor costs across Toyota’s North American operations over the next three years. Not only would new hires come in at lower wages—no longer comparable to U.S. union wages—but benefits would also be cut, including reduced health coverage" One can only imagine what concessions Toyota could demand from their employees that build vehicles here, if their domestic competitors were to disappear. (Message edited by Flanders_field on December 10, 2008) | ||
Warrenite84 Member Username: Warrenite84 Post Number: 451 Registered: 01-2007 |
There are idiots on both sides of the aisle trying to scuttle this deal. Most of them are looking at this selfishly for their district/state. Hardly a team player. In the future, people will ask when the U.S. started its downward spiral. I'll say when GOD was taken out of schools, and when THE STATES failed to act in a unified manner but for their own selfish interests. United we stand, divided we fall. | ||
Huggybear Member Username: Huggybear Post Number: 349 Registered: 08-2005 |
quote:SJ, just out of curiosity, is "arrogance" your favorite word? And while we are at it, why is it that any time anyone suggests that Michigan (or the auto industry) should stand up for itself, or points out why those things count in the grand scheme of things, you call it "arrogance" (or whatever type of negative connotation you are trying to get across by repeatedly using that word)? I've seen this on topic after topic after topic. The "Boycott Alabama" site is inarticulate. And it could be done better. But frankly, if not acting like a doormat is "arrogance," then people in Michigan ought to be more "arrogant." Other states are more assertive about getting their share (or more than it) - why should Michigan give and give and give in taxes but then bend over and take it when it experiences an economic act of God (i.e., a credit meltdown that knocks 35% out of the car market)? Over decades, federal government has screwed Detroit again and again and again in the name of geopolitics. The automakers, Michigan and Detroit have refrained from being "arrogant." It's gotten them nowhere - and they have adapted and adapted and adapted. But now the industry and the region are facing their own version of Katrina (and one brought about by the government), and the Senate is essentially telling drowning people that they need to justify being rescued. Humble, polite, "non-arrogant" people should just slip under the waves, right? (Message edited by Huggybear on December 10, 2008) | ||
Detroitej72 Member Username: Detroitej72 Post Number: 778 Registered: 05-2006 |
Just remember this when they want government aid whenever a hurricane strikes. We know they hit the south, why should we support someone who foolishly lives in the path of a hurricane. The same can be said for the jack asses who build their cities on a fault line or on the side of a cliff known to have mud slides. Next time they try to steal our fresh water, we can tell them to ask Toyota, Honda, or any other foreign automaker for a bottle. | ||
Novine Member Username: Novine Post Number: 921 Registered: 07-2007 |
"Rep. Barney Frank, D-Mass., who chairs the House Financial Services Committee, said there appeared to be a double standard on the part of Republicans focusing on autoworkers’ pay, when they voiced no similar concerns about employee wages or benefits before approving a $700-billion bailout for the financial industry. “The average worker at AIG makes more money than an autoworker. The average worker at Citigroup … makes more than an autoworker,” Frank said today. “Does anybody remember Citigroup being told that as a condition of its money, they have to get no more than a community banker gets?”" If management and the UAW is going to take a "haircut", how about the clowns at AIG who continue to suck down Billions from the taxpayers while giving millions in bonuses to top management? "Dec. 9 (Bloomberg) -- American International Group Inc., the insurer whose bonuses and perks are under fire from U.S. lawmakers, offered cash awards to another 38 executives in a retention program with payments of as much as $4 million. The incentives range from $92,500 to $4 million for employees earning salaries between $160,000 and $1 million, Chief Executive Officer Edward Liddy said in a letter dated Dec. 5 to Representative Elijah Cummings. The New York-based insurer had previously disclosed that 130 managers would get the awards and that one executive would get $3 million." http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/ news?pid=20601103&sid=aKIvmgvN l6zA&refer=us | ||
Ktkeller08 Member Username: Ktkeller08 Post Number: 10 Registered: 10-2008 |
If people think that the GOP is the only thing bringing the auto industry down, you obviously don't know what the Democratic party is today. Just look at the pressure the Democrats are giving in Cali. http://www.caranddriver.com/re views/hot_lists/car_shopping/l atest_news_reviews/drastic_fue l_economy_increases_could_stem _from_bailout_and_cripple_auto makers_car_news I watched part of the congressional hearings with the auto CEO's, and the thing that struck me as the most bizarre is that the Representative from California was trying to force the(essentially bankrupt automakers) into agreeing to adhere with more strict CAFE standards quicker than they would have. If you think that the GOP is the only reason for this, you're crazy. | ||
Oladub Member Username: Oladub Post Number: 1 Registered: 08-2006 |
PE Obama has stated that if the auto bill passed, all stakeholders, including the unions, would have to make some tough decisions. Well it did pass. Democrats voted 205-20 for the auto company bailout. Republicans voted 32-150 against the bailout. vote by member http://clerk.house.gov/evs/200 8/roll690.xml But what's a bailout without a little pork? U.S. District court judges will get a $5,000/year raise thanks to Harry Reid (D) who slipped that provision into the auto bill. | ||
Wally Member Username: Wally Post Number: 1 Registered: 12-2003 |
You mean Harry "We won't smell the tourists anymore" Reid is up to his old tricks again? | ||
Mopardan Member Username: Mopardan Post Number: 1 Registered: 11-2008 |
The pathetic bottom line in all this? For lack of a better description, this nation is beginning to experience an "Economic Civil War". And you can bet the lobbyists for Toyota, Honda, Hyundai, VW & BMW are fanning the flames in the halls of DC. We have basically given up our manufacturing capacity & industrial base to foreign countries. Politicians from all states have sold out the country to get a facility in their own district, but the money goes back to a foreign country's coffers. Remember the former Soviet Union? It is slowly rising back up & wants to be a major player again. Russia is already establishing alliances with hostile countries such as Venezuela. Don't be surprised when their military machine starts humming again & we have next to nothing here to match or overtake them. The U.S. car companies & the UAW are to blame for some of the predicament for sure. Many in Congress are putting unrealistic demands on them to "prove" their viability or restructuring. The financial meltdown couldn't have come at a worse time. They are competing not with just foreign subsidized automakers but now our own government. What the Auto Industry asks for is barely 5% of what was given to the financial sector for basically the same crime: greed. They're requesting loans not grants. We won WWII through our industrial might...God only knows what the remaining Greatest Generation thinks of us now. We have created a service-oriented soft society that looks down on blue collar work or anything that may cause sweating. (Message edited by MoparDan on December 11, 2008) | ||
Bob Member Username: Bob Post Number: 2 Registered: 11-2003 |
Well, we are about to find out what the Senate does, they just opened debate on the auto loans. | ||
Oladub Member Username: Oladub Post Number: 4 Registered: 08-2006 |
Mopardan, It is sad that the traitors in Washington have sold us out to foreign countries and the banks at home. Ron Paul takes your argument a little further except he opposed the bailout. He notes that the $15B is but a distraction compared with the over $8T recently handed out. Also, he notes that the government is nationalizing the economy and no one is complaining. When Truman nationalized the steel industry, by comparison, the courts outlawed his move. http://www.dailypaul.com/node/ 75707 | ||
Ronjm23 Member Username: Ronjm23 Post Number: 1 Registered: 11-2007 |
If this loan fails due to southern states GOP senators demanding that the auto manufacturers declare bankruptcy I have an idea that will cool their heels. Have Nextel cancel races in Talladega, Bristol, and Las Vegas to start because there should be any partcipation by US brands. I wonder in the south how much of an attraction it would be to just have Toyota's circling the tracks. | ||
Mopardan Member Username: Mopardan Post Number: 2 Registered: 11-2008 |
Ola, my brother is a "yella dawg" Dem who lives in Paul's district. However, he voted for Paul in this last election. To be fair, Paul is actually a Libertarian who joined the GOP. If anyone is a true maverick in that party, it is him. I agree that for so long the pols have sold us out in order to fatten their own wallets. A big argument during the 80s was how the U.S. could manufacture wickedly sophisticated military weapons but not consumer products such as a VCR. Granted, the Cold War was on, but I believe we are still having a hard time adjusting to the world since the Wall fell. Being the lone Superpower & World's Policeman does has its drawbacks. | ||
Jcole Member Username: Jcole Post Number: 12 Registered: 04-2005 |
Next hurricane, have DTE stay home. I'm sure that they wouldn't want Detroiters there anyway | ||
Mopardan Member Username: Mopardan Post Number: 3 Registered: 11-2008 |
Ron, you have to remember that you're talking about a segment of the population that is largely hardcore anti-Union, anti-Democrat, you name it. I hate using the stereotype because I will normally watch a NASCAR race. However, people like Shelby will play cards like "protecting taxpayers", "breaking the Commie UAW", "liberals" & "free market" to win over Redneck Nation. The people these southern senators are playing to will vote against their best financial interests every time. I live in a red state, trust me, I know how they play this game all too well. Ironic that one Shelby is out to destroy the U.S. Auto Industry, while another Shelby modified U.S. cars into high performance beasts. | ||
Oladub Member Username: Oladub Post Number: 963 Registered: 08-2006 |
Mopardan, I appreciate irony. Maybe the two Shelby concepts could create a fusion Nascar rice burner. | ||
Ronjm23 Member Username: Ronjm23 Post Number: 11 Registered: 11-2007 |
Mopar Dan: I too live in a red state and you are spot on with your assessment. I agree that the sentiment is to bust the union and they don't give a darned the consequences of 100,000 + sent to the unemployment line. The south benefitted from sub standard wages when they lured the clothing mills to the south in the 50's & 60's only to have the rug pulled out from under them by foreign competition in the 80's & 90's. People must understand that Toyota, Mercedes, etc. did not establish assembly centers without 1st getting hundreds of millions of taxpayer dollars in incentives. | ||
Cinderpath Member Username: Cinderpath Post Number: 922 Registered: 05-2006 |
I hope the Big 3 can buckle down until Obama makes it in Jan; it is there only hope now. Who would have thought a Democrat President, and Congress would be the ones coming to the aid of US Automakers. Strange bedfellows indeed. I suspect if GM makes it out of this alive (Chrysler is toast, and will be chopped up regardless), there memories will be long, and Republicans will indeed pay a price for this. | ||
Mopardan Member Username: Mopardan Post Number: 27 Registered: 11-2008 |
This was posted on Tony Stewart's website back in November: http://www.tonystewart.com/new s/index.php?article=view&id=37 7 Brian France of NASCAR on Dec 7th...I stand corrected thank God! http://www.nascar.com/2008/new s/headlines/cup/12/07/france.c ongress.automakers.ap/index.ht ml | ||
Novine Member Username: Novine Post Number: 908 Registered: 07-2007 |
The new Congress takes office on January 6th. In theory, they could pass legislation with expanded Democratic majorities and have President Bush sign it before his term ends January 20th when Barack Obama is sworn in. That's an unlikely scenario but if things are really desperate, waiting 2 more weeks for Obama to take office might not be an option. | ||
Mopardan Member Username: Mopardan Post Number: 28 Registered: 11-2008 |
Ron, I'm glad to see I'm not alone on this. Too many times I feel like the only civilized voice in the wilderness down here. Toyota established a Tundra plant in San Antonio not that long ago, so I can only wonder how much they extorted from the city in the process. Plus, who do you think will lose their jobs first in a series of layoffs were to occur? Not the folks back in Japan that's for sure. Cinder, I'm a Mopar guy & I know Chrysler will most likely be eliminated. I was against the merger with Daimler in the first place...those guys took a profitable company & ran it into the ground. Now that Cerberus owns it, I bet that will be the final nail in their coffin. I wanted to get the new Challenger when they started mass production. These first run SRTs will be worth a mint if Chrysler is actually forced out. The real tragedy from all this is that the average American doesn't care or has any vision beyond the next hour. | ||
Bcscott Member Username: Bcscott Post Number: 100 Registered: 05-2008 |
My daily driver is a 2004 Ford F150 FX4. Last year I decided it was time to help out the auto industry with a bailout of my own and pick up a new Ford truck. The only problem, to replace my exact same truck just trading in my old one would've cost me $705 a month!! When I picked myself up off the floor the salesman suggested leasing it. Well that brought it to $563 a month for something I don't own and can't modify. Needless to say, the 2004 is still in my driveway. I'm a bachelor with no kids and a really good job and I can't afford a new truck, how the Hell is someone who makes less than me and has more responsibilities supposed to buy one? I know there's a lot of union supporters here but I'm not one of them. The big 3 are not going to survive when they've got their collective hands tied behind their backs by the unions. I've got a $25+ an hour factory job, but my company is non union and we're very competetive and have facilities all over the world. I don't have a guaranteed job if I screw up. I can't go on strike and make money. My girlfriend's mom was an electrician for Delphi and I watched her lounge around the pool all summer in 1998 or 99 during that big strike. She just laughed and laughed about how much money she was still making having a Long Island by the pool. My former father in law worked at a GM foundry and talked about a guy getting stabbed for borrowing another guy's forktruck. The union got the attacker his job back. One of his supervisors was shot at work and shoved down the stairs. Nobody was chaged in the incident, a show of solidarity I guess. When you see and hear things like this how on Earth does a union person expect support from non union folks? If they're one of the biggest burdens on the manufacturers get rid of them. | ||
Novine Member Username: Novine Post Number: 910 Registered: 07-2007 |
Who knew that stuff like that doesn't happen in non-union shops. | ||
Bcscott Member Username: Bcscott Post Number: 101 Registered: 05-2008 |
Doesn't happen at my shop. I don't know any other place on Earth where you can stab a co-worker and still keep your job. I went through a GM plant in Saginaw for my metalurgy class two years ago. The whole group walked past a breakroom and there we're guys stretched out fast asleep on the tables, in the middle of the afternoon. Now I know about being tired at work, I work a 3 on 3 off 12 hour swing shift. That's 2200 hours a year plus almost 400 hours of overtime and I was going to school three days a week as well. So I understand being run down. But pulling stuff like that while a tour group is going through would get you in serious trouble where I work. And I'm supposed to have sympathy for these guys? | ||
Sstashmoo Member Username: Sstashmoo Post Number: 2930 Registered: 02-2007 |
Quote: "Nice move by these losers. They are intent on pushing the auto companies over the edge." Actually it's the smartest thing to happen yet. Why loan these companies money when they all three are involved in ridiculous labor agreements? How can they hope to pay it back? Sales are flat, Labor costs are still excessive. Can't keep doing the same thing and expect a different result. They have no plan to make themselves solvent. Why loan them the money? Would you? | ||
Glowblue Member Username: Glowblue Post Number: 47 Registered: 09-2008 |
I hope every GOPer in the Michigan Congressional caucus turns Democrat after this. | ||
Angry_dad Member Username: Angry_dad Post Number: 281 Registered: 02-2006 |
""Toyota established a Tundra plant in San Antonio not that long ago, so I can only wonder how much they extorted from the city in the process. Plus, who do you think will lose their jobs first in a series of layoffs were to occur? Not the folks back in Japan that's for sure."" Toyota got at a minimum 600 million in tax abatements for that plant. There were also a great deal of tax incentives and structure costs absorbed for the suppliers that followed. Nissan got at a minimum 750 million between tax incentives and land from Mississippi for the Titan plant and yes they have shifted some production of other vehicles out of that plant back to Japan to keep "the home fires burning". BTW, Nissan is well on the way to abandoning the Titan, it has been a slug on the market and they will replace it with a Dodge truck derivative. It woud be nice if all manufacturing didn't go the route of "welfare" but once it started, how do you stop it and who's first? And why give anything to those that don't even live here? | ||
Otter Member Username: Otter Post Number: 447 Registered: 12-2007 |
Perhaps once they fall off the edge they can pull themselves back over the other side as more competitive businesses. | ||
Novine Member Username: Novine Post Number: 912 Registered: 07-2007 |
"And I'm supposed to have sympathy for these guys?" No one is asking you to have sympathy for anyone. If you believe that is representative of union workers in general and that non-union workers are angels, that's the end of the discussion. | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 4978 Registered: 06-2004 |
quote: Believe it or not, that's exactly what's happened. Toyota has been curtailing their production in Japan. This paper shows that "public funds and assets transferred to TMC account tfor close to 40 percent of the total capital investment in the Texas auto plant! and if you look at the breakdown it's not all local and state taxpayer funds, there are some Federal funds there, too. |
