  Crumbled_pavement Member Username: Crumbled_pavement Post Number: 609 Registered: 08-2007 |
Initially I thought the D3 would weather the storm. I figured if worse comes to worse Obama would aid the industry. On this day, it does not look like either Chrysler or GM have the ability to hang on to January 20th. What this simply means is the collapse of one of these institutions is IMMINENT. Once the dominos start tumbling it will touch each and every auto maker in the U.S. Are you prepared for the final nail to be put in the coffin of Michigan? The end is days away... | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 5022 Registered: 06-2004 |
Gee, thanks, like I wasn't depressed enough | ||
Crumbled_pavement Member Username: Crumbled_pavement Post Number: 611 Registered: 08-2007 |
Sorry Lilpup. I'm in the same boat with a lot of Michiganders. My knee-jerk reaction is to escape Michigan before the walls all come tumbling down, but there is no way I could sell my house in Michigan's economy. Have you looked outside today? Man, is the sky dark and grim looking. I think that's a sign of things to come! On the horizon for Michigan: - Huge budget cuts - Lost revenue for city/county governments from lower property taxes, foreclosures, and out-migration - Double-digit unemployment - Many other businesses in Michigan will also go bankrupt (suppliers, restaurants, retailers, etc.) - Increase in crime/neighborhods (city & suburban) that are currently on the edge will plummet Some truly dark days are on the horizon.... | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 5889 Registered: 10-2003 |
I suspect that if the Big 3 get no support there will be more than enough unemployeed auto workers out of jobs to ruin this state. The federal government will do nothing to help one of their 'donor' states. If the money doesn'tgo through 2 will fail within the next year and I will say with almost certainty that Shelby will be assassinated (not by me but I really see someone losing it and doing that). High levels of unemployed with their anger directed at a single, or few people will not be good for our dear friend in Alabama. I certainly would not act out based upon people's politics but I won't shed a tear for him if he makes front page news in an outcome that is not good for him. This very well may be the beginning of what turns out to be less than peaceful class warfare. Too many people will have nothing to lose and act out with that in mind. I will be donating to those running against the hypocrites like Shelby but that will be the extent of my action. I just don't think everyone else will limit their hate to merely political contributions. | ||
Detroitrise Member Username: Detroitrise Post Number: 3738 Registered: 09-2007 |
Yeah Crumbled_pavement, I see what you're saying. When a city (and state) loses it's main economic base, it's bound for doom & gloom. Whoever thought the worse was behind us, think again. I just feel sorry for those good people (mainly elderly & young children) who aren't as mobile. If it wasn't for GM, downtown Detroit probably wouldn't have come as far as it did. Now I can partially see why Comerica got the hell outta Dodge (no pun intended). They saw all of this coming. (Message edited by DetroitRise on December 14, 2008) | ||
Crumbled_pavement Member Username: Crumbled_pavement Post Number: 612 Registered: 08-2007 |
quote: Oh, don't worry, all of that will be reversed. Once GM crumbles to the ground there won't be much left at the Ren Cen. Detroit is truly doomed now. I see foreclosures escalating to their worst year in '09 and '10, along with a huge deficits from falling tax revenues. Think you see boarded up store fronts now? Wait until '10. It's going to be crazy in the D. I predict the census report for 2010 to have Detroit's population in the low 700K range. City services? Think they're bad now, they'll get much worse. Hold on people, we're the last of the dinosaurs.... | ||
Sean_of_detroit Member Username: Sean_of_detroit Post Number: 2091 Registered: 03-2008 |
"There will be some things that make it hard to smile in the future." Tough times are ahead. Then again... "Every new beginning really does come from some other beginnings end." I was talking about this to a family member, who spent 35+ years working in one of those plants... and now might have to deal with the realization that it's possible it was all a waste. That person said something to the affect of; "Who would've imagined five years ago that GM would be facing bankruptcy". Unfortunately, like people, every company will eventually die. Change is the only thing that you can count on. Whether you're wearing rose colored glasses or not, now isn't the time to get depressed and feel sorry for yourself... and if the sky really is falling, and we have to go down with the ship; Let's go out playing the songs we love (IE: Keep calm and carry on). (Yeah, I know how cheesy it is to quote Green Day and Tupac... but it's still true). (Message edited by Sean_of_Detroit on December 14, 2008) | ||
Lodgedodger Member Username: Lodgedodger Post Number: 1110 Registered: 05-2008 |
Crumbled, we're worried enough here. Could you take it easy on us with all the gloom and doom? Thank you. | ||
French777 Member Username: French777 Post Number: 623 Registered: 10-2006 |
OK. . . I Know that I'm only 16. . but there are other jobs then just GM, Chrysler in Michigan. Obama said that he wants a Major Infrastructural Improvements. . . which would bring many jobs to Michigan and USA | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 5023 Registered: 06-2004 |
"but there are other jobs then just GM, Chrysler in Michigan" Not many that aren't in one way or another dependent upon them. When that many people are out of work all at once (with no severance and no health care coverage) it's going to get ugly here fast. Besides, Jenny already accelerated our infrastructure repairs as a means of making work and the national programs are a ways off since Obama's not even in office yet. | ||
Detroitrise Member Username: Detroitrise Post Number: 3739 Registered: 09-2007 |
Lilpup (and Crumbled_pavement), thank you for telling it like it is.  | ||
Crumbled_pavement Member Username: Crumbled_pavement Post Number: 614 Registered: 08-2007 |
quote: Oh, well of course there are. Problem is, those jobs depend on business from GM/Chrysler or workers at GM/Chrysler. For example, a person could work in a restaurant down the street from a plant. However, if the plant closes, who is going to patronize that restaurant? It's not a direct job loss that is going to kill Michigan, it's all the indirect jobs being lost + all the tax revenue from people who are either unemployed or have moved out of the state. You say you're 16? Hopefully the state can hold together long enough for you to graduate HS. I suggest a college a long ways away from here. I fear there won't be a Michigan for you to return to... Lodgedodger, not really trying to scare people, as I am just as worried. If you saw my posts in the last month then you know I was pretty optimistic that the D3 would survive. Even after the collapse of talks on a $15B emergency bailout on Thursday night I remained hopeful. Bush teased us when he said that TARP money would be used and he won't let the D3 fail. Now today the White House is waffling on that and saying, "we'll see...don't call us, we'll call you." So you see, I'm a little nervous too. But it's all bad and no sense in denying it. Prepare for the worst of days.... | ||
Crumbled_pavement Member Username: Crumbled_pavement Post Number: 615 Registered: 08-2007 |
P.S.: For anyone looking for good news, here's some. Ford will survive. Here's my reasoning.... Ford has enough cash on hand to weather the storm as long as market conditions don't continue to deteriorate or one of the other auto makers fail. I think both will happen. I think GM will fail and market conditions will get worse. Nevertheless, Ford has enough money to get it to at least April. That's well within Obama's term and with the failures of the other two auto makers, the Obama administration will keep Ford afloat. So see, I do have some good news to report... | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 5024 Registered: 06-2004 |
Jt1, I don't know about someone going after Shelby but the bank bombing out in Oregon is certainly curious, even though it was a local bank and likely did not benefit from the bailout. http://www.oregonlive.com/news /index.ssf/2008/12/police_iden tify_colleagues_kil.html (Message edited by lilpup on December 14, 2008) | ||
Mopardan Member Username: Mopardan Post Number: 42 Registered: 11-2008 |
I've often described myself as an optimist tempered by reality. Corker & Shelby got their way by trying to stick it to the union, plus getting the loans defeated. Corker tried to go for the jugular because he knows Bush will provide cover. Why? Because as the days wind down, Bush will become more obsessed about his legacy. Some pragmatism will finally surface as he realizes he does not want to be mentioned in the same sentence as Herbert Hoover. He may not give the industry much, but probably enough to float for a while until the Obama administration shows up. It doesn't help one's perspective when the weather is cold, darkness has set in & a feeling of helplessness becomes overwhelming. You can listen to Springsteen's "The River" or "Badlands" in this situation. Choose "Badlands" because you don't want to go down without a fight. That's my take on things. | ||
Sean_of_detroit Member Username: Sean_of_detroit Post Number: 2093 Registered: 03-2008 |
Well yeah, you could run... or you could make new jobs (or assist those that can/are). | ||
Detroitrise Member Username: Detroitrise Post Number: 3740 Registered: 09-2007 |
I'm sure if GM wasn't preparing for the worst, they wouldn't have shut down most of their plants. | ||
Sumas Member Username: Sumas Post Number: 431 Registered: 01-2008 |
Wow, people, I thought I was depressed. Here is my pep talk. Things will work out at least in the short term. Automotive workers here are the best in the world. I have union stickers all over my car (we are not union workers) and a few anti war stickers too. I guess we never got past Vietnam. Michigan is a beautiful state with great people that have big hearts. We have other opportunities to explore. Sean of Detroit, the original quote is " the only constant is death and taxes " everything else is a plaguerism. My take is that Michigan has always been a feeder state in terms of taxes. We didn't bitch much so we will most likely get shored up, so they can bleed us some more. Seriously, I do expect some federal help to come through. A few Crackers from the South won't shut down this Northern state for long. I won't desert Detroit and I will not leave this state. French777, don't apologize for your age. Keep faith, you are right, there is other opportunities that await you. Not a great pep talk, I know. Give me a few more days and I will be back to "the sunny side of the street". | ||
Sstashmoo Member Username: Sstashmoo Post Number: 2950 Registered: 02-2007 |
Where are all those people that were whining about how much Mulally makes? Now how much is he worth to you? "Compared with the other two domestic automakers, Ford looks like it's already been blessed. The automaker has $18.9 billion in cash and $10.7 billion in untapped credit, which Mulally says has his company positioned to survive the market falloff." http://www.usatoday.com/money/ autos/2008-12-10-ford-ceo-alan -mulally-interview_N.htm | ||
Mopardan Member Username: Mopardan Post Number: 43 Registered: 11-2008 |
Good point Sean. I don't know the full situation up there, but we had our own day of reckoning back in the 80s because of the oil glut. It forced diversification whether we wanted or not. It wasn't until about the mid-90s when the tech boom hit & the information revolution took hold that we pulled out of our funk. Michigan is now facing its own reality check & something must occur; government, business & labor need to work together towards a common goal. This Auto Industry situation may be just the catalyst to force things into motion. (Message edited by MoparDan on December 14, 2008) | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 5026 Registered: 06-2004 |
The real question is whether Ford has been able to insulate its suppliers if the others go down. My brother an dsister both work for Tier1s and layoffs at my brother's company are expected after the holidays. They knew it even before the CEOs trips to D.C. | ||
Vivadetroit Member Username: Vivadetroit Post Number: 134 Registered: 04-2008 |
Moving to another state isn't really going to solve much. I've got friends in Florida, TX and Virginia who are out of jobs too & there's slim pickins there, especially since FL & TX are getting a ton of people from the Midwest moving down there. And on the same note as Sean, one of my family members has put in 39 yrs at Chrysler and is kind of in shock about all of this "I never thought I'd see the day when my company went out of business" He mentions how the uncertainty of the situation is a lot worse than when Daimler bought Chrysler and especially since there's only 8 other people left in his plant (the Viper plant) til February when they might make more cars. Everyone else was let go or took early retirement. He says that 4 groups have come in to check out the factory as possible buyers. | ||
Bobl Member Username: Bobl Post Number: 273 Registered: 07-2008 |
My son lost his job in Henderson, Nevada last summer. Other than low paying service work, the jobs there are as difficult to find as here. Anecdotally, when his boss decided to get out of the construction equipment leasing and sales business, he immediately got an astronomical offer to buy ALL of it from a broker in Dubai. | ||
Crumbled_pavement Member Username: Crumbled_pavement Post Number: 616 Registered: 08-2007 |
Here's a good article on why Michigan is doomed w/o a bailout. http://www.freep.com/article/2 0081214/BUSINESS01/81214041 C'mon Bush, hurry up! P.S.: Yes it is true that the whole country (actually, the whole world) is in an economic downturn and jobs are not plentiful anywhere right now. However, the rest of the nation is predicted to recover much faster than Michigan. Most of the nation is expected to start recovering in '10 - '11 time frame. Michigan might not recover in the next 10 years, if ever... | ||
Glowblue Member Username: Glowblue Post Number: 66 Registered: 09-2008 |
quote: I don't know about that. In about a year, alt-A mortgages and ARMs are due to have a big wave of resets, just like the subprimes began doing a couple years ago. The shit's gonna hit the fan all over again. Some are predicting a default rate of 70%. It could be four or five years before the national economy pulls out of the recession/depression, and a lot more industries will be asking for a bailout. | ||
Jb3 Member Username: Jb3 Post Number: 501 Registered: 06-2007 |
Too bad those idiots couldn't see the writing on the wall six years ago. I wouldn't worry too much people. This opens the door for opportunity to come knocking. We have had the technology and the need for a complete overhaul of our national transportation infrastructure, but lacked the desire or the critical mass to pursue it. When the big three go under, we will have some seriously marketable skills and the trained man-power to lead a new building boom in this country. We just need to hang-on for a few short months until the shit-storm passes. Yes, it will get worse before it gets better, but can you see any other way for people to change their opinions. Face it, we will never be able to go back to the way things were. Either we be the change, or we die. | ||
Fareastsider Member Username: Fareastsider Post Number: 1006 Registered: 08-2006 |
Am I reading the News/Free Press and their daily fear mongering? Where is the American attitude here? We all get that things are going to get very bad. We can either piss and moan and talk about what is going to happen or we can solidify our personal and community lives to be prepared for the worst. We will likely have some big changes ahead. Unless its terminal illness im not ready to embrace misery. I will work with it and succeed. Ive already been through being laid off and I have adapted and still get by. You can be prepared or constantly worry and complain. Life changes and offer challenges, you can either do something about it or not. Admitedly though from most people I encounter each day they seem to have given up and their day to day lives are booze, smokes and lottery tickets. Life goes on and we will have to adapt, what are you going to do about it something or nothing. There is no certain answer each and every person will have to do that themselves. | ||
Leannam1989 Member Username: Leannam1989 Post Number: 142 Registered: 06-2008 |
"Have you looked outside today? Man, is the sky dark and grim looking. I think that's a sign of things to come! " I don't live in the upper Midwest, but it is the upper Midwest. And it's December. Isn't the sky always dark and grim? Or at least a majority of the time? | ||
Downtown_lady Member Username: Downtown_lady Post Number: 461 Registered: 08-2008 |
quote: Sean, I have to tell you again that I really appreciate your positive attitude -- it is very refreshing. | ||
Crumbled_pavement Member Username: Crumbled_pavement Post Number: 617 Registered: 08-2007 |
Downtown_lady, I have a positive attitude too. I'm absotively posilutely positive that GM/Chrysler will go down the toilet... | ||
Urbanophile Member Username: Urbanophile Post Number: 12 Registered: 11-2008 |
Guys, I'm a Detroit skeptic, but let's not go overboard. At a minimum, GM and Ford can be viable, profitable companies if they are able to truly restructure their business to deal with the business model problems, cost base, debt, excess capacity, etc. It won't be pretty, but these companies are on the process of solving their biggest problem - product. With the products they've got coming, plus a true restructuring, GM and Ford can be successful again, albeit much smaller. | ||
Panda Member Username: Panda Post Number: 10 Registered: 05-2008 |
I heard something the other day about a huge meteor that would smash the planet into dust coming this way. Anyone else hear about this? | ||
Ray1936 Member Username: Ray1936 Post Number: 3710 Registered: 01-2005 |
Only gonna smash Michigan. We've got dibs on your water...... | ||
Glowblue Member Username: Glowblue Post Number: 68 Registered: 09-2008 |
quote: None of the Big Three will be profitable until the economy recovers. How can any large automaker be successful when less than 11 million annual car sales (There were 16 million in 2007)? Even Toyota is losing money in the North American market right now. Things are hard in the automobile market, and it could be years before they get better. It doesn't mater if you make the best car in the world when nobody can afford to buy it. | ||
Pffft Member Username: Pffft Post Number: 1173 Registered: 12-2003 |
Toyota stopped work on the plant in Miss. where it was going to make Priuses. Gee I guess that kills the California environmentalists' claim that all Detroit had to do all these years was stop making evil SUVs and make MORE Prius type vehicles. Surprise: Nothing is selling. | ||
Glowblue Member Username: Glowblue Post Number: 69 Registered: 09-2008 |
quote: The realities of the automobile market, and the economy in general, seem to be lost on the coastal bourgeosie, whose idea of a economic hard times is reducing their child's allowance from $100/wk to $60/wk: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12 /13/nyregion/13teens.html?_r=1 &hp | ||
Lpg Member Username: Lpg Post Number: 105 Registered: 02-2008 |
And to make it even better the people in Lansing are going to increase the plate fees on our cars by 50%. Our Gov wanted a 100% increase. Also heard there is talk from Washington about a large increase in the gasoline tax. Just the medicine we need to stimulate the economy. | ||
1953 Member Username: 1953 Post Number: 1011 Registered: 12-2004 |
You guys all need a pep talk. Things will be ok. Ask the people of Pittsburgh, who lost big steal. They still have people in Pittsburgh, it turns out. People can be very flexible when need be. | ||
Townonenorth Member Username: Townonenorth Post Number: 467 Registered: 10-2007 |
quote: I'm betting Alabama, or for Ray1936, the same spot the last one put a big hole in. Think they call it Meteor Crater out that way? | ||
Crumbled_pavement Member Username: Crumbled_pavement Post Number: 621 Registered: 08-2007 |
White House waffling some more: http://www.usatoday.com/money/ autos/2008-12-14-auto-bailout_ N.htm I don't think Bush is going to do the TARP thing. GM/Chrysler, you're on your own. GOD help Michigan... | ||
Retroit Member Username: Retroit Post Number: 592 Registered: 04-2008 |
So, what are our options?: 1. Expect all Americans to come together to preserve our industries? Not probable! Look how many industries we lost already. We are suffering from the same "free market euphoria" that Great Britain suffered from during the late 1800's when we stole virtually every industry from them (all the while enforcing tariffs to protect our industries). 2. Pack up and move to Asia? May not seem fun, but how fun was it for our ancestors to leave the Old World to come here for a job. Keep this option in your back pocket. 3. March on Washington, secede from the union, assassinate Senator Shelby? We've already had one Civil War. What good did it do? We would have been better off without those rednecks (a little humor!) 4. Complain, blame, point the finger at_____? Where will this get us? Where has it gotten us? Who alone is to blame? (Everyone but me!) 5. Despair, stay up all night worrying? Don't waste time with this. Work on Plan B,...and C,...and D. 6. Wake up everyday, thank God for it and everything else. Know that He has given you the wherewithal to provide for yourself. Realize that when the door slams shut, a window opens. Hope for the best. Expect the worst. Put money aside for rainy days and "40 day floods". Be grateful you've made it this far? I'll work on this one. | ||
Chub Member Username: Chub Post Number: 265 Registered: 11-2003 |
"2. Pack up and move to Asia? May not seem fun, but how fun was it for our ancestors to leave the Old World to come here for a job. Keep this option in your back pocket. " I really never thought of it that way. Is it possible this is just how history naturally repeats itself? | ||
Townonenorth Member Username: Townonenorth Post Number: 476 Registered: 10-2007 |
Nah, they don't want us either. |
