Discuss Detroit » Archives - July 2008 » We Detroiters need to get over it.... « Previous Next »
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Mayor_sekou
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Username: Mayor_sekou

Post Number: 2619
Registered: 09-2006
Posted on Tuesday, December 16, 2008 - 12:17 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I’ve noticed a lot of threads dedicated lately to being pissed about the state of the auto industry and like a lot of threads where the subject is about some sort of bad news there is a lot of anger and self pity. Whether its about Kwame doing this or that or another Forbes list there is this sort of a woe is us, lord help us because we can’t help ourselves attitude prevalent in these parts.

So ultimately I have concluded that Detroiters need to quit pitying themselves and get over it. We have all known for decades even long before I was born that this day was coming; the Big 3 will have to face significant changes to the way they do business if they are to survive into the future. And along the way to this much needed change there will be blood in the form of a lot of people relying on the automotive industry losing their jobs. But yet we all liked to pretend that this day wasn’t coming. Like somehow the Big 3 would just pull it out and Detroit would return to the manufacturing glory land it hasn’t been in nearly 50 years. Despite the fact that one walk down any city street within these same 50 years have clearly proven otherwise.

I agree that the companies should be bailed out. I agree that perhaps politics had more to do with the failure of the Senate bailout plan than serious objection to the way Detroit does business. But I also agree with the attitude that the rest of the country has taken to this sad state and city. While the rest of the world has reinvented themselves to adapt with the changing times we have stayed stuck in park and watched and whined as everyone else has passed us by. And we haven’t just remained stagnant in sticking to our one industry economy, we can’t to this day say with a straight face we have a united metropolitan region capable of coming together to get needed changes accomplished. Or we are beyond the race baiting, them against us attitude that has existed since the dawn of Detroit. The rest of the country has just elected a black president. New Orleans, NO is at this rate eventually going to recover from a massive hurricane that flooded the majority of the city. But yet Detroit can’t leave the 1950’s and join the rest of the country in the 21st century because it refuses to do what is necessary to get there.

I don’t like living in an area full of sulking crybabies who want things to get better but will do little to facilitate this change. Instead of writing Senators in some far away state maybe we should send a nice letter to the folks up in Lansing who have helped to lead us into the prosperous times of today. Or maybe, even better, elect competent leadership with a clear vision towards the future when the opportunity presents itself. Or how about better yet get over the prevailing attitude of the last 50 years expecting that these jobs that have been leaving forever are somehow going to stick around or they are supposed to be here like we are entitled to them.

The country recently believed that some radical change is possible. That despite years of the status quo somehow, someway, the status can be broken. Why cant Detroiters? What’s wrong with us? I fully believe that is possible to see a Detroit greater than it ever was within my lifetime but in order to get there we have to get out of our own way first. And it all starts by simply getting over it, stop living in the past, and taking proactive steps to ensure our survival in the future. I’m down if anyone else is.

Now I’m done ranting.
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Bragaboutme
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Username: Bragaboutme

Post Number: 577
Registered: 02-2008
Posted on Tuesday, December 16, 2008 - 9:50 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Why is it always Detroiters' fault when things go wrong? I thought the Auto Industry was at fault? It went from "The Big Three" to "Detroit Three". When the Steel Mills in Pittsburgh were shutting down they put the blame on the Steel Mills not Pittsburgh. Someone somewhere did something to piss-off someone in Washington. I've noticed that and I know for sure I'm not part of this problem. Detroit has been disrespected by washington for a long time now.


Mayor, I think it is more than getting over it. There have been social ills in play for a long time that can't be simply reversed by simply getting over it.
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Goat
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Username: Goat

Post Number: 2925
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Tuesday, December 16, 2008 - 10:53 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What is wrong with us? Shit, that would be one loooong list.
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Thecarl
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Username: Thecarl

Post Number: 848
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Tuesday, December 16, 2008 - 11:08 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Detroit has been disrespected by washington for a long time now.



and it pains me more every day to think about how our mayor behaved when he was in our nation's capital. this, from wikipedia:

quote:

Since 2002, the Washington D.C. police will only offer professional courtesy protection to Kilpatrick while he is conducting official business in the nation's capital. Washington police no longer provide after-hours police protection to Kilpatrick because of his inappropriate partying during past visits. Sergeant Tyrone Dodson of Washington explained by saying "we arrived at this decision because we felt that the late evening partying on the part of Mayor Kilpatrick would leave our officers stretched too thin and might result in an incident at one of the clubs."



hardly an ambassador for a hard-working, responsible, disciplined city. it is my personal opinion that he helped sully detroit's reputation in washington and across america, and he's part of the reason we're finding so little sympathy right now.
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Retroit
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Username: Retroit

Post Number: 586
Registered: 04-2008
Posted on Tuesday, December 16, 2008 - 11:58 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"I hate listening to people complain, so I'm going to make them listen to me complain." I'm on to you, Mayour_sekou!

It is very easy to blame others for not having a "clear vision toward the future", but why do we expect others to do this for us? If you know the solution to our problems, tell us.

We're listening.....
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Mwilbert
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Username: Mwilbert

Post Number: 473
Registered: 11-2007
Posted on Tuesday, December 16, 2008 - 12:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

If you know the solution to our problems, tell us.



I really don't think that is a fair comment. You can have a vision of where you think you need to go without a clear idea of how to do it. In any case the question isn't whether a particular person has a vision of the future, but whether the people of the region have a shared vision which informs their actions.

Detroit's problems were sown by the nature of its success--it turns out not to be a good thing long term to have lots of relatively highly paid, relatively unskilled jobs in one industry in a globalizing world. It turns out to be bad to have comically inept people running that industry.
Those things aren't the fault of people in general--one is a structural problem, and the other is the fault of the management and boards of directors of those companies, most of whom should be ashamed of themselves although they probably are not.

However, the social and political infrastructure of the area are not exactly helping. Who votes for a Kwame Kilpatrick (twice) or a Brooks Patterson (who knows how many times)? The people of the Detroit area, who don't seem to understand that disunity and dysfunction aren't a good thing, or who believe that if those things aren't good, they are less important than making statements about what group they identify with.

Perhaps adversity will enable people to see their common interests better; if so the dark clouds may have a silver lining.
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Mayor_sekou
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Username: Mayor_sekou

Post Number: 2621
Registered: 09-2006
Posted on Tuesday, December 16, 2008 - 2:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

^ What he said. I don't pretend to have all the answers but I am pretty sure sitting around sulking about how Washington isn't being nice to us and how them damn Japs are takin' our jobs isnt it.
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Retroit
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Username: Retroit

Post Number: 597
Registered: 04-2008
Posted on Tuesday, December 16, 2008 - 3:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think the Big3 have done a tremendous job. Most notably, they have been a major player in the economic well-being of this nation. Washington has every duty to "be nice to us". They serve us. They survive by the tax-dollars that are paid by the Big3 and by every UAW worker. It is their obligation to preserve, protect and defend our nation. And the "Japs" have only been able to take our jobs because we, the people of the United States, were kind enough not to obliterate them in WWII, rebuilt their country for them, provided military defense for them, taught them how to build cars, opened our markets to them, and practically gave them factories in the States.
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Retroit
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Username: Retroit

Post Number: 598
Registered: 04-2008
Posted on Tuesday, December 16, 2008 - 3:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sorry, I must have woken up on the wrong side of the bed today, because no one on this forum is making any sense to me today.
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401don
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Username: 401don

Post Number: 892
Registered: 11-2007
Posted on Tuesday, December 16, 2008 - 5:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think Detroiters have every right to be shocked at the reaction they are receiving from the rest of the country and the fed. gov't. This website is simply the most convenient place for forumers to get it off their chests.
Here in the Toronto area there is a higher percentage of foreign ownership than elsewhere in Canada or even the U.S. There are also Honda and Toyota plants in Ontario. Considering all the immigration in the area, loyalty to the big 3 can't be expected when you moved from India or China 5 years ago. Despite all of this, I have heard very little disagreement with Canada's decision to help the auto companies. Our media's reporting on the CBC, Toronto Star (check out last Sat. issue), etc. has been far more balanced and in depth than what I have seen from the U.S.
I guess if Mitt Romney continues to go on Meet the Press and spew nonsense about huge wage disparities being the ongoing cause of a $2,000 per vehicle cost difference, you can't expect Joe Public who already buys a Toyota to take the time to find out the facts.
I guess I'm just wondering why the half of the country that still buys American, loves NASCAR, enlists in the army, hates New York and LA, etc. isn't speaking out on behalf of their own industry at least a little.
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Ravine
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Username: Ravine

Post Number: 2889
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Tuesday, December 16, 2008 - 6:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Mayor Sekou, I already liked you & enjoyed your posts, but my respect for you just greatly escalated. That short commentary was a fine piece of work: concise, realistic, and (to all appearances) from your heart.
Please don't be discouraged by some of the above comments. The fact that you don't seem to have an A-through-Z plan, for correcting the problems to which you referred, is irrelevant. Nobody else has one, either, and it is clear, in your post, that you are not pretending to have a sackful of answers.
The point you made is an excellent one, which is part of the reason why there will be some folks who don't want to hear it.
I'm siding with you here, Mayor. I completely agree with you. One of the most nauseating aspects, of the last couple of weeks, is the self-pitying whining from the people who refuse to buck up and recognize the fact that Detroit, and Detroiters, are largely responsible for the gruesome situation in which we find ourselves, and that the rest of the nation is not morally required to show a commitment & effort which we, ourselves, have so often fell short of showing.
This forum is not innocent of that foolish attitude, either. Everything about Detroit is not terrific. While we have much to be proud of, we have plenty to be ashamed of, too, and "DetroitYes!" should never add up to "TruthNo!"
Great work, yerronor. You are a much better writer than I realized.
You can expect my support, should a shit-storm of hostile replies bust loose.
Serving Notice: Anybody who goes for Mayor Sekou's head, for that post, will have to get past me in order to accomplish the decapitation.
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Retroit
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Username: Retroit

Post Number: 600
Registered: 04-2008
Posted on Tuesday, December 16, 2008 - 6:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Mitt Romney and the other Republicans have really missed the boat on this. They have often been criticized for being pro-business and anti-labor. Well, now they are anti-business and anti-labor. So who the hell are they for?
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Retroit
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Username: Retroit

Post Number: 601
Registered: 04-2008
Posted on Tuesday, December 16, 2008 - 6:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Detroiters are largely responsible for the gruesome situation in which we find ourselves."

Yeah, Detroiters have caused the entire credit crisis in this country/planet. It's the Big3's fault for not building cars that run on air and don't require any money to buy.
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Ravine
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Username: Ravine

Post Number: 2892
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Tuesday, December 16, 2008 - 9:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Feel free to infer meanings which I did not imply.

I wanted the auto companies to get that loan. I believe that the national economy will be hurt if the auto companies die. However, I have no trouble understanding why some members of the Congress might HAVE trouble understanding why they should approve now & ask questions later.
SON: Dad! I really don't have time to explain, right now, but I need you to give me $10,000, tomorrow, or this guy is gonna kill me.
DAD: Goddamit, this didn't happen overnight. Obviously, you've been doing something you shouldn't have been doing, getting yourself deeper & deeper into trouble, and you waited until the last damned minute to come crying to me. Now, if I don't come to your rescue, you're going to wind up dead, and you know I don't want that, but you've got some explaining to do. How the hell do I know that, after I save your sorry ass, the same kid who dug himself into a mess like this won't go right back out and do it again?

I don't mean to thread-jack. Mayor Sekou's fine post alludes to a state of affairs which is larger, and deeper, than the current automotive crisis.
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Lilpup
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Username: Lilpup

Post Number: 5046
Registered: 06-2004
Posted on Wednesday, December 17, 2008 - 6:39 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

and larger and deeper than Detroit

Y'all sitting back and bitching about some of us - are you promoting the city and the automakers elsewhere? Are you having an impact anywhere?

I can spend hours on major websites fighting for the companies, city, and state and do more good than some of those yapping self-righteously here.

Some of us see well beyond this region and we CAN see instances of really being screwed because no one's standing up and making noise for us and others like us who are getting run over in this country and its recent economic trends. It's not as if Detroit and Michigan didn't help elect Obama or go against Bush the years before that.

Yeah, mistakes have been made but that doesn't mean everyone's just lying down and taking it.

(Message edited by lilpup on December 17, 2008)
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Jacqueline
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Username: Jacqueline

Post Number: 17
Registered: 08-2008
Posted on Wednesday, December 17, 2008 - 10:04 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Mayor_sekou and Ravine are right. Too many peoples response to a tough situation is to not only whine, but to threaten. I am distressed by the hate that is fostered on many forums towards the foreign auto companies. I own a Toyota and each day wonder if I am going to find that my car has been keyed or something worse has happened to it.
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Ravine
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Username: Ravine

Post Number: 2895
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Wednesday, December 17, 2008 - 3:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lilpup, I'm not sure if you are fer me or agin' me, on this one. Certainly, you are correct in saying that not everyone is just lying down and taking it.
One problem which is more common, in Detroit, than it should be: the feeling that someone from outside-- you know, the oft-referenced "they"-- should swoop down and help us out. We Detroiters have an unfortunate tendency to feel that way, to begin with-- some of that is just human nature, after all-- so the current auto company disaster, and the appeal to Congress, fits right in with that pre-existing tendency. Of course, the fair thing to do is to evaluate that issue on its own merits, and not lump it in with all the other cases of Detroiters wanting to sit on their fat asses and expect a handout.
We also have a tendency to feel that the taxes we already pay should be sufficient to address every need, as though the costs of certain services never rise.
The bottom line is that we allow our house to fall into extreme disorder, and then seem to feel like someone, somewhere, is supposed to pay for a maid service to come in and clean up the mess.
I'm sure that attitude is not found only in Detroit, so don't anybody bother me with the "it's like that in every big city" speech. For one thing, I really don't give a damn about where else it is found; the fact that irresponsibility is common does not make it a more acceptable trait. Further, if everything screwed-up about Detroit is equally screwed-up in all of the other big cities, why is this one so much nearer to death than are they? Why is our reputation so much worse? Why does Detroit have to BEG businesses to come here?
For those of us who have spent the last few decades living out here in the neighborhoods, the view is much different than it is for those living in trendy little lofts & apartments in, or near, the downtown area. If that is what some folks have in mind when they appear in this forum and blurt, "I'm getting ready to move to Detroit!," I have news for you: that's not moving to Detroit.
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Sstashmoo
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Username: Sstashmoo

Post Number: 2961
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Wednesday, December 17, 2008 - 3:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Quote: "Now, if I don't come to your rescue, you're going to wind up dead,"

Dad really has no choice as he will die with the son as the hit is on the whole family, and the son plans on continuance of the behaviour that got him there in the first place.

Solution: Dad needs to pay off hit and son needs to find some new friends.
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Sstashmoo
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Username: Sstashmoo

Post Number: 2962
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Wednesday, December 17, 2008 - 3:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Quote: " I own a Toyota and each day wonder if I am going to find that my car has been keyed or something worse has happened to it."

That's a real possibility. Back in the 70's there were cases of vandalism towards imported cars.
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Rjk
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Username: Rjk

Post Number: 1068
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Wednesday, December 17, 2008 - 3:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v =Oof60kDFqAc
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Sstashmoo
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Username: Sstashmoo

Post Number: 2966
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Wednesday, December 17, 2008 - 3:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

LOL
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Ravine
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Username: Ravine

Post Number: 2896
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Wednesday, December 17, 2008 - 3:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dad needs to pay off the hit, AND maybe ol' Pops needs to initiate a program which will provide him with some oversight on Junior's activities.

Why the hell should the taxpayers dig deep, to help out these businesses, and receive little more than a mumbled promise that they will "go, and sin no more?"
Remember, it's not a loan until they pay it back.
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Ravine
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Username: Ravine

Post Number: 2897
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Wednesday, December 17, 2008 - 4:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Rjk, that was very timely.

Now, we need to ask Michael why the drapes are open.
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Retroit
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Username: Retroit

Post Number: 611
Registered: 04-2008
Posted on Wednesday, December 17, 2008 - 4:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sorry, Mayor_sekou and Ravine if I have misunderstood you. If you are saying that we need to take responsibility for ourselves, I agree. If you are saying that we should be able to solve every exigency for which we are not completely responsible in creating, I disagree.

I think the government should intervene in the Big3 loan/"bailout", since it is because of the credit crisis that the Big3 can't sell cars, and not because they refused to "re-invent" themselves.

At the same time, I will agree that in the past, government intervention has been the cause of a lot of our problems.
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Ravine
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Username: Ravine

Post Number: 2900
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Wednesday, December 17, 2008 - 4:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Retroit, I can't speak for The Mayor, but you did mis-understand me.
Glad you cleared that up.
When I say we "are largely responsible for the gruesome situation in which we find ourselves," I mean that in a fairly general way, although I confess that I believe my statement is applicable to the auto industry, as well, with the unions being every bit as culpable as the companies' management.
When a company is making tons of money, but times change and they start noticing that their profits are nose-diving, that company needs to shift gears & adapt to the changing times IMMEDIATELY. The auto companies, and the unions, did not do that. They are not alone in that, and I'm not heaping blame on them for it, but I do believe that they f'ed up.
I still think they should have gotten the loan. Don't get me wrong about that.
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East_detroit
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Username: East_detroit

Post Number: 1732
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Thursday, December 18, 2008 - 8:47 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

I don’t like living in an area full of sulking crybabies who want things to get better but will do little to facilitate this change.



Mayor, come back when you have to pay a mortgage and support a family and work hard all day just to keep your head above water (nevermind "thriving").

People who "do little"? Anyone going to work and busting their ass is doing a lot. Slamming them on a message board with no plan of your own is where one does "little."

If the average person working under the duress and stress of the current world situation 8, 10, 12 hours a day just to keep going has enough left over to write to a Senator, well, hats off to them. If they come here to express and commiserate, its understood why. Who are you to call them crybabies?
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Gravitymachine
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Username: Gravitymachine

Post Number: 1642
Registered: 05-2005
Posted on Thursday, December 18, 2008 - 9:00 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

this paragraph from drew sharp in regards to the lions really applies here too, and i'm already there.

http://www.freep.com/article/2 0081218/COL08/812180440

quote:

There was no other recourse but an emotional divorce, understanding that there always will be a bitterly harsh distinction between what you want with this team and what you'll get. And it's through that detachment that you ultimately find serenity. You neither laugh nor cry at the sustained misfortune. You simply accept whatever happens and move on with your life.

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Gravitymachine
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Username: Gravitymachine

Post Number: 1643
Registered: 05-2005
Posted on Thursday, December 18, 2008 - 9:00 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

this paragraph from drew sharp in regards to the lions really applies here too, and i'm already there.

http://www.freep.com/article/2 0081218/COL08/812180440

quote:

There was no other recourse but an emotional divorce, understanding that there always will be a bitterly harsh distinction between what you want with this team industry and what you'll get. And it's through that detachment that you ultimately find serenity. You neither laugh nor cry at the sustained misfortune. You simply accept whatever happens and move on with your life.

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Lilpup
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Username: Lilpup

Post Number: 5057
Registered: 06-2004
Posted on Thursday, December 18, 2008 - 9:04 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ravine, it hasn't been that long in terms of cycles in the auto industry. GM turned profits as recently as two of the quarters in 2006 and Ford was profitable as recently as the first quarter of 2008. It isn't that GM is worthless - they have assets to offer as collateral - they need cash on hand to operate.

When the auto companies make money they usually make big money. Similarly when they lose money they can lose big money. That's why they need large financiers to back their operations and ride with them. They can't tap local banks like smaller businesses can. Right now the large financiers aren't functioning, that's why GM had to go to the government.

(Message edited by lilpup on December 18, 2008)
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Dj_tom_t
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Username: Dj_tom_t

Post Number: 10
Registered: 09-2005
Posted on Thursday, December 18, 2008 - 9:29 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It's not just an auto thing. This region has a general reluctance to let go of the past and move into the future. Witness the Tiger Stadium saga - 10 years later (roughly) and the stadium sits 1/2 demolished while people fight to save it for no apparent reason other than it holds "memories". This is just one example of many.

Things appear to be changing though...unfortunate that it's gonna take some serious bloodletting in order for change to happen.
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Ravine
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Username: Ravine

Post Number: 2909
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Thursday, December 18, 2008 - 7:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lilpup, your initial point is well made and well taken.
With that point in mind, however, it is even easier to see why some members of the Congress would express bewilderment at the red-alert being sounded by the automakers.
But, that brings us directly to the second point you made, the one about the "large financiers."
Thanks for bringing those points to the table.

(Message edited by ravine on December 18, 2008)

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