 
401don
Member
Username: 401don
Post Number: 891
Registered: 11-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 16, 2008 - 4:34 pm: |    |
Buffalo and Detroit both have envy based on their past greatness - Buffalo to Toronto and Detroit to Chicago. As long as Detroit has 4 major sports teams and is able to hold big league events, not just sports events, it will retain that big league city with a small town feel that, for me, gives it its character. That's why, aside from the employment benefits, retaining the auto companies and even the auto show, is so important to its psyche. Buffalo on the other hand is preying that Ralph Wilson's imminent demise won't lead to its entire identity, the Bills, leaving town. |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 4059
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 16, 2008 - 5:04 pm: | |
^Not to be completely trivial, or anything.... |
Retroit
Member
Username: Retroit
Post Number: 599
Registered: 04-2008
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 16, 2008 - 5:36 pm: | |
I've been to that wildlife refuge. I hoped to see the migratory birds, but it wasn't the season. But I did see an armadillo and walked within about 50 feet of a pond full of alligators (no fence!). Ocean2026, you live in a beautiful place.
Sorry for being so critical. Your post #76 makes a lot of sense. Now I see where you are coming from. We have a lot in common. I love old buildings, too, and frequently fantasize about owning one. I don't live in the city proper, but I'm in the city enough to see firsthand that there are a lot of serious problems with this city. |
Crawford
Member
Username: Crawford
Post Number: 469
Registered: 10-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 16, 2008 - 5:36 pm: | |
Detroit is pretty far from Chicago. Not sure why you are grouping the two together. Detroit is the dominant city for a fairly large radius.
They're considerably further apart than NYC is from DC or Boston, for example. |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 3617
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 16, 2008 - 5:58 pm: | |
^Not that much different. Boston is 215 miles from NYC. DC is 230 miles from NYC. Chicago is 280 miles from Detroit. |
Mopardan
Member
Username: Mopardan
Post Number: 48
Registered: 11-2008
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 16, 2008 - 9:41 pm: | |
OT - Ocean. I used to fish in Rockport & Port A. a lot when I was a teenager(Grew up in San Antonio). Still head to CC, Port A & S. Padre Island on occasion. Ok, enough of TexasYES for now!
I find the older industrial towns like Detroit & Cleveland fascinating, although I've never been to either. The closest was Cincinnati/Dayton area about 10yrs back. I recall seeing the closed Fisher plant in Hamilton while I was there & thinking how active it must've been in the 60s.
I try to imagine how Detroit looked 40-50yrs ago; when I see the pictures of derelict, burned out or vandalized homes, I think "How can this happen & why isn't something done?" It gives me some insight why so many on here get exasperated. You don't like to see your city or hometown heading for the worst.
I know I've written ad nauseum about how I believe the auto industry situation will be a catalyst for positive change. The ripple effect will be felt from the residents to the workers to the corporations right up to the statehouse. Attitudes have to change as well, that this won't be the same old song & dance. Will it be easy? Not in the least, but anything worth having never is. I may be from the south, but I'd like to see the Midwest & Northeast succeed as well as my own region of the country.
(Message edited by MoparDan on December 16, 2008) |
Miketoronto
Member
Username: Miketoronto
Post Number: 752
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 16, 2008 - 11:57 pm: | |
There is a big difference between Buffalo and Detroit. While Detroit does have nice areas, Buffalo benefits from having an entire area(the north side) of the city that has never declined and still houses one of if not the most weathly areas of the metropolitan region.
The North side of Buffalo is a major asset for that city, as it still houses the upper classes, middle class families, and many cultural offerings.
Adding to that is the fact that South Buffalo has also maintained itself as a pretty middle class well kept area.
The only areas of Buffalo that bring the city down is the East Side, which looks like a bomb went off.
But the north and south sides have really held their own so to speak.
Downtown Buffalo while not a retail mecca, does have more regional importance than downtown Detroit does to say Metro Detroit. A larger percentage of Metro Buffalo residents sill work in the city compared to Metro Detroiters working in Detroit.
And while the service is not perfect, Buffalo does maintain a regional transit network including light rail.
Both cities are great, but I would say that having a very stable north and south end gives Buffalo an edge in being a little more stable. |
Bearinabox
Member
Username: Bearinabox
Post Number: 1083
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 17, 2008 - 12:24 am: | |
quote:There are 8 communities in the Detroit area that appear on the list of the 100 highest per capita income cities in the country with populations over 50,000, and West Bloomfield is 9th. There are no places around Buffalo that appear on these lists. I wonder if that means there is a lot of wealth here compared to other metro areas, or just that we like to draw municipal borders around our wealth. If the entire metro region were annexed into the city proper tomorrow, we would no longer have any communities on those lists, but there wouldn't be any less wealth in the region. |
Turkeycall
Member
Username: Turkeycall
Post Number: 107
Registered: 09-2008
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 17, 2008 - 7:10 am: | |
Novine Post Number 970 Quote: "Buffalo gets lake effect snow. Unless you really love snow, you don't want to be there."
Come on over to Muskegon. Lots of lake effect snow. We've been getting dumped on for the last four days but we manage to muddle through. But there have been time spans of warmer temps which helps the situation.
Our saving feature? Lake Michigan. Lake Michigan looks as though it was an ocean, but without the salt.
I'll be happy when they build the pontoon bridge from Muskegon to Milwaukee. |
Bongman
Member
Username: Bongman
Post Number: 676
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 17, 2008 - 8:08 am: | |
"This isn't the 1950s. Most Americans heading west for any distance fly, they don't drive."
Oh, and I bet they're just lining up to fly here for a weekend. The people who use the bridge/tunnel as a cut-thru to get to I-94 probably have more negative things to say about Detroit than anybody. Those using I-80 don't even bother. Perhaps it's just my impression, but Toronto residents seem to view Detroit as a bigger negative influence on their city than Buffalo, even though it's much closer.
Remember when the Mayor of Buffalo took some heat for announcing to everyone in town that they should go get some beer at their local party store and bunker down before the big storm hit ? My kind of guy. They have some awfully impressive snow removal equipment in use there. |
Gravitymachine
Member
Username: Gravitymachine
Post Number: 1639
Registered: 05-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 17, 2008 - 8:24 am: | |
quote:They have some awfully impressive snow removal equipment in use there.
yes they do, when the city proper got 4 feet of snow several christmas's ago, they had main arterials cleared in 1-2 days. i know because i was waiting for the thruway to open to visit my buddy, once i got into town i was amazed at the level of clean up, and the next day they cleared his lowely residential street. during the same storm, the southtowns (hamburg, etc) got 7 feet...they get lake effect comparalbe to the western UP, not the west side of michigan
(Message edited by gravitymachine on December 17, 2008) |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 3618
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 17, 2008 - 8:27 am: | |
>Oh, and I bet they're just lining up to fly here for a weekend.
Well... Detroit Metro is one of the busiest airports in the world...
(And no airport in Ohio comes close to it in terms of traffic.)
(Message edited by iheartthed on December 17, 2008) |
Erikto
Member
Username: Erikto
Post Number: 426
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 17, 2008 - 10:04 am: | |
One similarity I thought I'd add is both Detroit and Buffalio have a giant old abandoned train station, which probably conveys something about the diminished popularity of both cities as a destination for out-of-towners on either business or vacation. There are occasional tours of the Buffalo station, though. |
Mackinaw
Member
Username: Mackinaw
Post Number: 4381
Registered: 02-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 17, 2008 - 10:24 am: | |
Buffalo has some rail transit. Buffalo has never been big, although it's % population loss can somewhat be compared to the D's.
The one time I visited I found the physical makeup to be somewhat similar to Detroit's in downtown Buffalo. A mix of stunning old buildings and parking lots, some nice cultural venues and churches, a main street that looked like Merchant's Row but it was transit and pedestrian only (maybe not the best idea). The neighborhoods I saw were a bit more dense than Detroit, but then we got lost in the half-empty industrial belt (east of downtown, I think--maybe something like 94-St. Aubin or even Fort street near the Bridge), and it was less urban prairie but still plenty of blight. Also, about the same housing density as Detroit. It felt rather home-like. They have a waterfront adjacent to downtown that's well-used for residences unlike Detroit, but it was very poorly planned and had a lot of awkward modern single-family developments. Functional and well-located, but not beautiful and not urban.
Detroit and Buffalo anchor the east and west ends of the geographic area that's attributed as having the most neutral American English accents. Supposedly it runs from western NY to southern Michigan. Always thought that was interesting. |
Lmichigan
Member
Username: Lmichigan
Post Number: 3926
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 18, 2008 - 12:04 am: | |
Buffalo is largely Detroit if Detroit wouldn't have been able to grow outside its Grand Boulevard loop. Detroit has so much more heavy infrastructure to deal with that Buffalo doesn't, nor ever had, to deal with. They are definitely very much in the same family as us. Detroit, Toledo, Cleveland, and Buffalo are all very similar in culture sharing the same historic shipping routes.
A big difference, though, for Buffalo is that like Cleveland and Pitsburgh, but unlike Detroit, both the city and metropolitan area have been losing population for a few decades, now. |
Mackinaw
Member
Username: Mackinaw
Post Number: 4388
Registered: 02-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, December 18, 2008 - 12:06 am: | |
Well, metro Detroit is now firmly in the same boat in terms of regional loss, but regarding the 80s and 90s that's true. |
Lmichigan
Member
Username: Lmichigan
Post Number: 3928
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 18, 2008 - 12:09 am: | |
Metro Detroit may still eke out a small population gain for the 2010 Census since comparisons are always officially done by decade. Just saying that Metro Detroit's been able to post population gains for the last few decades because its immigration rate and birthrate always overcame the out-migration rate. I'm not so sure that will be the case come 2020, but who knows? It was just an example to show that there are differences in the areas, and that for as bad as Detroit is portrayed, it's been able to do (at least until know) what the other former industrialized metros of the Erie region have not been able to do: attract immigrants in significant numbers.
(Message edited by lmichigan on December 18, 2008) |
Miketoronto
Member
Username: Miketoronto
Post Number: 754
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, December 18, 2008 - 12:23 pm: | |
I thought Metro Detroit has not really grown, and that the region would grow for a couple years, then decline, then grow, then decline, and that the metro pop is no larger then it was in the 1960's?
Metro Buffalo is also growing again. Their population losses on a metro wide basis was not that large. |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 3621
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, December 18, 2008 - 12:29 pm: | |
quote:A big difference, though, for Buffalo is that like Cleveland and Pitsburgh, but unlike Detroit, both the city and metropolitan area have been losing population for a few decades, now.
Would metro Boston be a more apples to apples comparison to metro Detroit in terms of population? Both areas are similar in size, and both have had relatively stagnant population growth compared to other areas that are as larger or larger. |
Janesback
Member
Username: Janesback
Post Number: 504
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, December 18, 2008 - 12:49 pm: | |
Mopardan, I m in Houston, but have bought a house in Monte Vista in San Antonio. I spend much time in S. A. while I work here in Houston
Where in Austin? I have friends in Dale, east of Austin......Jane |
Detroitplanner
Member
Username: Detroitplanner
Post Number: 2204
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, December 18, 2008 - 12:57 pm: | |
Iheart, Of all the cities I've been to Philly seems to be the most comparable in terms of size, cultural amenities, and issues. The biggest difference is that homes in Philly are on much smaller lots, and the road network is less linear.
Chicago ranks second, but its central business district and neighborhoods are on a completely different scale. Chicago is based on a grid similar to Detroit's, and much of the architecture is of the same vintage. Chicago also has a billion different suburbs. |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 3622
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, December 18, 2008 - 2:10 pm: | |
quote:Iheart, Of all the cities I've been to Philly seems to be the most comparable in terms of size, cultural amenities, and issues. The biggest difference is that homes in Philly are on much smaller lots, and the road network is less linear.
Chicago ranks second, but its central business district and neighborhoods are on a completely different scale. Chicago is based on a grid similar to Detroit's, and much of the architecture is of the same vintage. Chicago also has a billion different suburbs.
I agree that Philly and Detroit have a lot of social similarities. I just named Boston primarily because of the similarities in size and rate of population growth. Boston is also a bit isolated due to its geographic location, and Detroit is a little isolated as well due to its location and artificial barriers (i.e. international borders). |
Ocean2026
Member
Username: Ocean2026
Post Number: 83
Registered: 11-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, December 18, 2008 - 2:43 pm: | |
Lheart I disagree. Philly and Chcago are not losing population to the extent that Buffalo and Detroit are- they are not on a downward spiral. They do not have -even proportionately for their size the amount of abandoned buildings that Buffalo and Detroit have. Finally Philly and Chicago are substantially more expensive for housing than Detroit or Buffalo.
Sure they are all big midwest ( well Philly is east) metro centers- all have had manufacturing -all have had spotty growth at best.
What I was looking for in this thread is two cities both of which have consistently lost population for over a long period of years, both cities where the predictions for the future are dire ( both are among Forbes 10 fastest dying cities) and I was looking to see if posters could distinguish Buffalo and Detroit. |
Haikoont
Member
Username: Haikoont
Post Number: 50
Registered: 09-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, December 18, 2008 - 2:59 pm: | |
Both cities have shitty NFL teams. The Detroit Lions and Buffalo Bills share the distinction of having the longest current postseason drought in the league -- both last made the playoffs in 1999. |
Miketoronto
Member
Username: Miketoronto
Post Number: 755
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, December 18, 2008 - 4:16 pm: | |
Since when is Buffalo one of the top 10 fastest dying cities?
I just did a project on the Buffalo region for my urban planning studies, and the region seems to be working on a come back.
Downtown Buffalo is becoming a leading medical and biomedical cluster with a new biomedical research park operated by the University At Buffalo.
Greater Buffalo is also becoming a leader in sustianable energy, and has the largest urban windfarm on a brownfield site, in North America.
Things may not be that great. But the region is not being left for dead. And like I said, large swaths of inner city Buffalo are in very good shape and intact areas that people choose to live in.
Buffalo has also come out as the number one mid size city for culture. The city is home to a large theatre community, a world famous art gallery, and other amenities.
If Buffalo takes advantage of all this, then the future could be bright.
Click on the link below to see the improving Buffalo.
http://www.bioinformatics.buff alo.edu/inc/CoE_video.htm |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 3623
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, December 18, 2008 - 4:49 pm: | |
quote:Lheart I disagree. Philly and Chcago are not losing population to the extent that Buffalo and Detroit are- they are not on a downward spiral. They do not have -even proportionately for their size the amount of abandoned buildings that Buffalo and Detroit have. Finally Philly and Chicago are substantially more expensive for housing than Detroit or Buffalo.
Sure they are all big midwest ( well Philly is east) metro centers- all have had manufacturing -all have had spotty growth at best.
What I was looking for in this thread is two cities both of which have consistently lost population for over a long period of years, both cities where the predictions for the future are dire ( both are among Forbes 10 fastest dying cities) and I was looking to see if posters could distinguish Buffalo and Detroit.
Well, if you let Forbes tell it, Detroit is a rusted out ghost town. As much as people like to paint that picture, it's a bit of exaggeration.
The truth is that Detroit is much larger than Buffalo. In fact, it's much larger than most cities in the country and world. There are some differences between Philly and Detroit, or Chicago and Detroit, yes of course. But there are also a lot of similarities that you would notice if you were familiar with those cities. Why do you think people get Detroit and Chicago mixed up so much? Nobody ever mixes up Detroit and Buffalo... |
Haikoont
Member
Username: Haikoont
Post Number: 52
Registered: 09-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, December 18, 2008 - 5:06 pm: | |
I have never met anyone (foreign business contacts included) who got Detroit and Chicago mixed up. |
Lodgedodger
Member
Username: Lodgedodger
Post Number: 1119
Registered: 05-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, December 18, 2008 - 5:07 pm: | |
Detroit = Lafayette Coney Island
Buffalo = Anchor Bar
It's all good, Folks. |
Urbanophile
Member
Username: Urbanophile
Post Number: 14
Registered: 11-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, December 18, 2008 - 5:09 pm: | |
Mike, so we have yet another city chasing the biotech dream, eh? |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 3625
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, December 18, 2008 - 5:28 pm: | |
quote:I have never met anyone (foreign business contacts included) who got Detroit and Chicago mixed up.
Have you ever met someone from Papua New Guinea? |
Mopardan
Member
Username: Mopardan
Post Number: 50
Registered: 11-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, December 18, 2008 - 9:53 pm: | |
OT - Janesback. Isn't Monte Viste in the Olmos Park area? If so, I am impressed...such beautiful & exquisite homes. :-) I used to play a lot of soccer in the basin, but that was a LONG time ago. ;-) I still go to SA for reserve duty at Lackland. I live in South Austin which has rapidly become overdeveloped I hate to say. What area of Houston are you in?
Lheartthed, I agree with you about how Forbes makes Detroit sounds. Granted, I've never been there, but any coverage I've seen makes it sounds like there may be a few hundred people left & little to hope for. I know the Auto situation is hanging over the city & with it a lot of repercussions. Every city has its good & bad points I don't care where you live.
Never met anyone from Papua New Guinea however my dad spent some time there fighting the Japanese in WWII. |
Lmichigan
Member
Username: Lmichigan
Post Number: 3932
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 18, 2008 - 11:34 pm: | |
Mike,
I'm not sure where you've gotten your info from, but Metro Buffalo is still shrinking, and has been doing so for some time. |
Thecarl
Member
Username: Thecarl
Post Number: 869
Registered: 04-2005
| | Posted on Friday, December 19, 2008 - 1:30 am: | |
quote:The truth is that Detroit is much larger than Buffalo. In fact, it's much larger than most cities in the country and world.
iheart, how is detroit larger than most cities in the world - by population, or area? you must mean area. if by area, does it rank in the top 10, 50, 100, etc., cities in the world? |
Ocean2026
Member
Username: Ocean2026
Post Number: 84
Registered: 11-2008
| | Posted on Friday, December 19, 2008 - 7:40 am: | |
http://www.buffalonews.com/145 /story/527494.html
From Today's Buffalo News -region showing job losses but it did say - that before this Buffalo hadn't been suffering as much some places.
Buffalo's population was estimated at292,000 in 05 and is about 287,000 now.
we do know Detroit is larger than Buffalo - lol think that was established even before our thread started . |
Mopardan
Member
Username: Mopardan
Post Number: 51
Registered: 11-2008
| | Posted on Friday, December 19, 2008 - 8:22 am: | |
Detroit's pop: 951270
Detroit Metro pop(6-county area): 4,467,592
Supposedly there is going to be news of GM & Chrysler securing fed loans today. This would run counter to Bush talking about an "orderly" bankruptcy. Either way, it will certainly have an effect on growth or loss. |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 3626
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Friday, December 19, 2008 - 10:14 am: | |
quote:iheart, how is detroit larger than most cities in the world - by population, or area? you must mean area. if by area, does it rank in the top 10, 50, 100, etc., cities in the world?
By population, metropolitan Detroit ranks as the 48th largest area in the world.
http://www.demographia.com/db- world-metro2000.htm
This list shows it as the 43rd largest urban area in the world:
http://www.mongabay.com/cities_urban_01.htm
I'm not sure if either of these lists accounts for the Windsor area.
(Message edited by iheartthed on December 19, 2008) |
Thecarl
Member
Username: Thecarl
Post Number: 873
Registered: 04-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, December 20, 2008 - 9:41 pm: | |
iheart, your referenced post uses the terms "town" and "cities" when addressing detroit. it wasn't clear that you were using "urban area" or "metro area" to define detroit in terms of population or area. including portions of wayne, macomb, and oakland counties - as well as canada, as you indicated, and perhaps even ann arbor - in washtenaw county - certainly boosts "detroit's" population and land mass rankings. |
Lombaowski
Member
Username: Lombaowski
Post Number: 127
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, December 21, 2008 - 3:46 am: | |
Miketoronto: "Since when is Buffalo one of the top 10 fastest dying cities?"
Are you kidding?
http://www.syracuse.com/news/i ndex.ssf/2008/08/buffalo_among _fastestdying_cit.html
Buffalo has a lot of the same problems as Detroit with a lot less people. I like the positive spin but it's not very accurate. If Buffalo isn't dying then neither is Detroit. |
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