  Ocean2026 Member Username: Ocean2026 Post Number: 74 Registered: 11-2008 |
I like both places because they rock with great old buildings that are cheap- Both have nice summers and are on rivers. Both have lost population at a steady pace and both have horribly high taxes compared to Texas. Detroit is bigger of course, and is more tied to auto and has a somewhat bleaker outlook. Both cities are sitting on piles of abandoned properties and both places have property assessment departments that are out of touch with prices. Buffalo does have a free website where one can look up vital info on any property as often as you like. Detroit if it has one charges for it. Any observations for those who may have seen both places? | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 3611 Registered: 04-2006 |
Similarity: They are both located along major commercial trade routes. Difference: New York State survives without Buffalo. Michigan becomes Iowa without Detroit. | ||
Bongman Member Username: Bongman Post Number: 673 Registered: 12-2003 |
Niagara Falls, NY is a ghost town. They lost their manufacturing base ages ago, and are about twenty years ahead of our curve. Our fall will be greater. You can argue till the cows come home, but minus jobs, Cleveland and Buffalo are both more desirable places to live than Detroit. I see Detroit's population falling in line with Buffalo's, and there's no Falls to look at here. We are an hour off the beaten track from both of those cities. | ||
Goat Member Username: Goat Post Number: 2922 Registered: 10-2003 |
One has a higher crime rate including murder. One has sprawl as far as the eye can see. One has city corruption at an unprecedented level. One has a school system that used to be the model for the USA but now is one of the worst systems in the USA. Which one is which in the above statements? This region blows! | ||
Downtown_lady Member Username: Downtown_lady Post Number: 463 Registered: 08-2008 |
quote: But no argument needs to be made for or against, since "more desirable place to live" for each person is often based on personal preference and intangibles. Regardless of whatever data or statistics could be provided, I will always find Detroit more desirable. There is a vibe and a spirit here that is very appealing to me. | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 3612 Registered: 04-2006 |
quote: Detroit is a hub on one of the most important commercial trade routes in the world. Detroit is a far better location than Buffalo or Cleveland. | ||
Bongman Member Username: Bongman Post Number: 674 Registered: 12-2003 |
How many Americans that head West on I-80 can justify going two hours out of their way to come here ? In fact, that was the same rationale that made us lose the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame to Cleveland. I like living here, but don't overplay the hand we're dealt. | ||
Downtown_lady Member Username: Downtown_lady Post Number: 464 Registered: 08-2008 |
Bong, being a tourist and being a resident are two different things. | ||
Gravitymachine Member Username: Gravitymachine Post Number: 1634 Registered: 05-2005 |
i go to buffalo several times a year as i have a good friend there, and family eastward. my friend even works in a mixed-use redeveloped model-t factory, the tri-main center http://www.trimaincenter.com/, it is a well managed and cleaned up version of the russell industrial center (which is neither clean or well managed). another detroit connection that i used to always see is the aquarama docked just south of the city, before it got shipped off to become razor blades. anyways, buffalo's east side is probably just as notorious there as our own is here, but without the immense urban prarie, but has many more solid neighborhoods to the north and west, and the elmwood/delaware/richmond corridor is pretty sought after. buffalo is essentially a smaller, more managable city that struggles with the same issues as detroit but i feel has a better grasp on them due to the much smaller scale, lack of the mass exodus of the tax base doesn't hurt either our main parks were both designed by fredrick law olmstead (delaware park and belle isle), both had/have spawling old car factorys with limited success in reuse, though the pierce-arrow factory is faring leaps and bounds better than our packard. however i think buffalo has a much better rate of retention for graduates of the colleges and schools in the city, each of which foster far more vibrant neighborhoods around them. there are innumerable parallels in where the cities have been and where they are going, and a lot could be learned from that....case in point, they have what we seek here, a light rail system down main street, from downtown to the city limit which has had some success... i could go on and on with other random thoughts aobut the two, but i'll save it for later (Message edited by gravitymachine on December 16, 2008) | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 3613 Registered: 04-2006 |
quote: So Detroit isn't ideally located to be some truck stop off of I-80. Big deal. Where do people go when they go to Canada? (Message edited by iheartthed on December 16, 2008) | ||
Bongman Member Username: Bongman Post Number: 675 Registered: 12-2003 |
Do you consider a "commercial trade route" to be a residential selling point beyond jobs ? | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 3614 Registered: 04-2006 |
quote: What is more of a selling point than jobs? My point is that Detroit will always be important because of its location. As long as Canada is a major world economy, and as long as you can reach a significant portion of the United States through Detroit, then Detroit will be more important than Cleveland. You don't have the Department of Homeland Security fretting over much in Cleveland, while the Ambassador bridge is at the top of their list among potential terrorist targets. | ||
Ocean2026 Member Username: Ocean2026 Post Number: 75 Registered: 11-2008 |
Wow -interesting discussion - that first point NY doesn't need Buffalo but Mich becomes Iowa without Detroit - Would that be a bad thing? Detroit being a better location than Buffalo. I don't know about that -Buffalo is close to Toronto one of the few cold areas to show growth. By the way people are curious as to why I'm always asking stuff but I've pretty well explained it in other threads. Today I have an extra reason, the temperature here ( South Texas) has dropped below 60 and in protest I'm not going anywhere until the climate becomes decent again! Gravity yes tell us more as you've been to both places also. What about Traffic - Buffalo seems to have little congestion partly because so many people are gone and the infrastructure was built for twice as many people. What about Detroit? By the way people ask why I post and Ive explained it in other threads -today however I have an extra reason- the temperature here here in South Texas has fallen below 60 and I'll be damned if I'm going anywhere in this climate. So in protest I'll sit by the computer in my warm bed until >60 ( yes its only a summer home I want). | ||
Retroit Member Username: Retroit Post Number: 585 Registered: 04-2008 |
Ocean2026, you threw me for a loop. You started your post with "I like both places...", yet you listed only two positive aspects: "nice summers and are on rivers", which would apply to just about every other major city. Having "great old buildings that are cheap" is a sign of a depressed economy an is only advantageous to people actually buying them, which is not happening. So, why again do you like Detroit? | ||
Gravitymachine Member Username: Gravitymachine Post Number: 1635 Registered: 05-2005 |
oh and another similarity, there has as long as i can remember, been controversial talk of a twin span of the peace bridge between buffalo and fort erie. both also have saarinen designed buildings, buffalo's kleinhan's music hall being theirs. and i just read in getting the spelling for the above right, that they also had a riot in '67 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B uffalo_riot | ||
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner Post Number: 2200 Registered: 04-2006 |
Both Downtowns need a lot of help. Buffalo has one of the coolest city halls of anywhere. Both are Canadian border towns, but Detroit-Port Huron handles much more frieght than Buffalo-Lewiston. Some of Robert Moses finest work is found in Buffalo. Buffalo gets a lot more snow. Buffalo Bills play outside where it is cold. Buffalo Sabres are worse tha the Red Wings. Casino development have impacted decisions on both sides of the borders. Detroit needs to have a crap filled sidekick such as Niagra Falls Ont. Detroit/Windsor's economy is much more linked than the Buffalo-Niagra-St Catherine's. The Niagra region is blessed with lots of Hydroelectric production. Fantasy Island and Boblo were owned by the same company at one time. Buffalo Niagra has State Parks near or within the urban area along the water. Detroit will get one soon (St Aubin Park by itself don't count!). | ||
Goat Member Username: Goat Post Number: 2927 Registered: 10-2003 |
It is Niagara  | ||
Downtown_lady Member Username: Downtown_lady Post Number: 465 Registered: 08-2008 |
Retroit, should Ocean have to justify his reasons to you? Do his reasons for liking the city need to fit some pre-determined criteria? Also, he has mentioned that he has thought about the possibility of purchasing a home here, so the low housing costs would be beneficial to him. I don't understand why you think his reasons for liking Detroit are not sufficient. Give the guy credit -- he lives on the other side of the country and has expressed an interest in the city. Do the reasons why really matter? | ||
Retroit Member Username: Retroit Post Number: 590 Registered: 04-2008 |
Downtown_lady, Ocean2026 should not expect me to read his unreasonable "reasons" and not question him. When someone says they like a city because it has: 1. A depressed real estate market, 2. Lost population, 3. Horribly high taxes, 4. A bleak outlook, 5. Piles of abandoned properties, 6. Property assessment departments that are out of touch with prices, and 7. No website to look up vital property info... it makes me wonder what the heck he is talking about. | ||
Downtown_lady Member Username: Downtown_lady Post Number: 468 Registered: 08-2008 |
Retroit, I'm just looking at it differently. First of all, what you listed is not what Ocean claimed as his reasons for liking the city, they are just points that he mentioned. I think he has a realistic attitude, that Detroit is not all sunshine and roses, and in spite of x,y and z he's still interested in the city. And anyway, who is anybody to determine that someone else's reasons are "reasonable" or not? He said he likes the summer weather with temperatures that are cooler than Texas. He likes that Detroit is on a river. He likes the architecture. He likes the low housing costs, as he has pondered buying a summer home here. I don't understand what the issue is. What does he need to prove to you? | ||
Novine Member Username: Novine Post Number: 970 Registered: 07-2007 |
Buffalo gets lake effect snow. Unless you really love snow, you don't want to be there. "How many Americans that head West on I-80 can justify going two hours out of their way to come here?" This isn't the 1950s. Most Americans heading west for any distance fly, they don't drive. | ||
Eastsideal Member Username: Eastsideal Post Number: 109 Registered: 10-2007 |
I think you've passed over the size thing too quickly. This is really the major difference between Detroit and other similar cities like Buffalo, Cleveland, etc. The Detroit area is far more populous than any place in the midwest other than Chicago, and is physically vast. The Detroit metropolitan area has more than 4 times the population of the the Buffalo - Niagara area. The 2000 census shows the Detroit area at 4.45 million to Buffalo's 1.17 million. And that doesn't even include other nearby population centers like Flint, Ann Arbor, Toledo, or Windsor. Even the troubled City of Detroit itself has somewhere around 900,000 people over 140 square miles, to the City of Buffalo's under 300,000 over 50 square miles. The size of the city and the metropolitan area in Detroit, both in terms of population and geography, presents a whole different level of problems, challenges, and opportunities that other smaller cities don't have. There are several things about the Detroit area that are not immediately apparent from just looking at the city itself. One is that, despite the problems of the city and the auto companies, there is a lot of wealth in the area. Oakland County just north of Detroit has the 26th highest per capita income of any county in the U.S., just behind Santa Clara County in California's Silicon Valley. Significant sections of Oakland County around Birmingham and Bloomfield, as well as the Grosse Pointes east of Detroit, are among the wealthiest areas in the country. Bloomfield Hills has the 4th highest per capita income of any place in the country with over 1,000 households, just behind Palm Beach. There are 8 communities in the Detroit area that appear on the list of the 100 highest per capita income cities in the country with populations over 50,000, and West Bloomfield is 9th. There are no places around Buffalo that appear on these lists. All of which points up one of the things that distinguishes Detroit from any other city I've ever been to, which is the degree of difference between the city and the suburbs. Detroit itself is mostly African-American, one of the poorest places in the country, and has been losing population for nearly 60 years. The Detroit suburbs are extremely white for the most part (although somewhat less so than they have been in the past), contain some of the wealthiest areas in the country, and, until very recently, have been growing in population. Contrast this to Buffalo, where the entire metropolitan area has been losing population for many years. All of this leads to a degree of disconnection, and animosity, between city and suburb that is more profound than that seen elsewhere in the U.S. Because of their size and scale Detroit's suburbs are able to function autonomously of the city in nearly every respect, and together really function like a series of major cities in their own rights. So, in large measure they just go along their way, do their business, and mostly ignore the city they encircle (although occasionally gaping on TV or the internet at the city's tableau of decay and dysfunction); a city most of their families left a generation or two ago, that they feel very little connection to, and have largely given up on. It is not at all unusual in this area to run into suburban people who identify as Detroiters but who haven't actually been in the city itself for many years (except -maybe- to have taken the expressway downtown for a game or to one of the casinos), and have very little idea of what's there. (Message edited by eastsideal on December 16, 2008) | ||
Mopardan Member Username: Mopardan Post Number: 45 Registered: 11-2008 |
Y'all need to look at it this way: I'm in Central Texas & we complain about a lot of the "immigrants", particularly Californicators. However, one thing many of them have done is moved into areas that were less than desirable & began a gentrification trend. Older neighborhoods are starting to see a renaissance & it's beginning to have a positive impact. The schools in these neighborhoods aren't the best, but within a few years their performance will improve because chances are these new arrivals will be more involved. Trust me, there's resentment at times because I know someone out west can sell a shotgun shack for $500k then pay cash for a house here. On the flipside, as long as they're helping to renovate the depressed & older neighborhoods, I see that as a positive. For example: when the airport was closed & reopened at old Bergstrom AFB, the area was completely renovated. http://www.muelleraustin.com/b uzz/meetings_events.php A co-worker recently bought a house there & loves it. C'mon Detroiters & Michiganites! It can be done! But y'all need work as a team at all levels & be bold. I still think this auto industry situation is the catalyst to get the ball rolling because it's a huge wakeup call. I believe they'll get their bridge loan & I doubt the Obama administration will let them sink provided the companies make progress. In addtion, he is stacking his cabinet with non-southerners; if nothing else, you have at the very least a sympathetic ear. But you have to make it work. To expound on what Ocean & Downtown Lady are talking about, it wouldn't surprise me to see a signficant number of baby boomers buying or leasing summer homes in the north. My brother is close to retirement & he's talked about getting a place where they're not broiling everyday. This is the reverse notion of the northern Snow Birds who travel south for the winter. Why not something like "Sun Birds" going north for the spring & summer? I've seen pictures of some of the derelict & abandoned homes there; at one time they were exquisite & impressive...today, I'm sure the neighborhoods aren't always the greatest. But if a real development plan could be put into place to renovate areas, it's possible to create a market to lease or sell homes to these Sun Birds. It may be a drop in the bucket as far as initial economic impact, but you have to start somewhere. Yeah, this is a half-baked idea because I'm thinking of it as I write; find someone with the other half-baked part & you've got a full idea. In any case, you can either be down on yourself or determine your own future. There appears to be enough concerned people posting on these forums; maybe it's time someone(or everyone!) got things organized to create a voice for the city. Do like other states have done & find ways to raise or secure the funds to diversify the business culture & promote the city/region. Anyway, that's just my two cents worth & I won't even ask for change back. | ||
Retroit Member Username: Retroit Post Number: 593 Registered: 04-2008 |
I like Baghdad because it rocks with great old buildings that are cheap. It has nice winters and is on a river. It has lost population. It has a bleak outlook. It is sitting on piles of abandoned properties. | ||
Downtown_lady Member Username: Downtown_lady Post Number: 469 Registered: 08-2008 |
That's excellent Retroit -- to each his own. Is it so difficult for you to believe that Ocean may just sincerely like Detroit, in spite of the problems? There are many of us that do. We may not be Shangri-la but we are not Baghdad. (I hope my post doesn't get criticized on the BaghdadYes website.) | ||
Mopardan Member Username: Mopardan Post Number: 46 Registered: 11-2008 |
Baghdad - IEDs Detroit - No IEDs Baghdad - Has US Govt Attention Detroit - Has US Govt Inattention Sorry, just couldn't let that slip by. | ||
Otter Member Username: Otter Post Number: 464 Registered: 12-2007 |
Retroit, Ocean doesn't have to justify anything. Just accept it and deal with his reasons for what they are instead of trying to challenge him. | ||
Ocean2026 Member Username: Ocean2026 Post Number: 76 Registered: 11-2008 |
retroit - I have no problem responding to you- I actually have been asked the same question before and responded in different threads. I am mostly on here to learn as I publish columns nationally when I want to inform google Steve Fischer Border Fence if you'd like to see my latest which will be picked up by more papers over the next two weeks. Liking Buffalo and Detroit for great buildings and cool summers may not seem like much to you but here where the heat index may be 100 every day for two months - means something to me. I know the majority of people in both Buffalo and Detroit take their old buildings for granted and nice ones are demolished all the time. I love old buildings - in my town we celebrate two of them - most of the rest are boring wood structures. Of the two only one would even be NOTICED on a typical Buffalo or Detroit st. This is my hobby of sorts so old buildings mean alot to me- as I am in my 50's and have young children it is both a manner of reliving the past when I used to travel with my dad and also showing my 16 and 8 yr old what cities used to look like. Finally when I get something sold here ( and it could be forever) I am considering a building for a summer home ( maybe a mixed use where the rest could be leased. Im angry at the high taxes several times more than Texas but who knows? I've made specific threads about the Book Building on 8469 Jefferson and the Castle on 530 Parkway and both had considerable responses. The thread Which are Detroits worst areas and which streets have the best old buildings - provided me with more information than I could digest. So basically your answer is 1 because I want to learn more and 2 because people seem to like these threads. Finally sometimes I just want to be a smart-ass and in response to complaints about the Leland Hotel ot the poor guy who was looking for a cheap room - ( posters said the halls all smell like urine etc) I told him he could save money then by renting one of the rooms without a bath because "when in Rome".... I certainly appreciate everyone's responses and I dont mind Retroits comment although it would be helpful if he provided more information ie what is the property tax in Baghdad (lol). | ||
Mopardan Member Username: Mopardan Post Number: 47 Registered: 11-2008 |
OT - Ocean, where about are you? I'm outside of Austin. | ||
Ocean2026 Member Username: Ocean2026 Post Number: 79 Registered: 11-2008 |
I'm in Rockport - a small coastal town with a wildlife refuge 25 miles up the coast from Corpus Christi. |
