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Thames
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Username: Thames

Post Number: 349
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Monday, January 05, 2009 - 7:49 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I know couples who are good people; good parents and they raised good kids.

I also know couples who are good parents and their child isn't a good citizen. One couple I'm thinking about has 5 kids. The second born is useless. The other 4 turned out to be productive members of society.

Does that mean they're bad parents? Or does it mean, despite what the second born was taught, he continually makes bad choices?
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Darwinism
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Username: Darwinism

Post Number: 519
Registered: 06-2005
Posted on Monday, January 05, 2009 - 10:29 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

When I was a child in school, I would never dare answer back at my teachers. I attended public school, so we're not talking about Catholic nuns here. Back then, it would not have even crossed my mind to tell my teacher that I would get him/her fired if he/she disciplined me.

These days, the kids know they are untouchable. Teachers tell me all the time that children as young as 2nd or 3rd Grade have absolutely no respect, no fear and no regards for school personnel, not even the principals. Why should they? They know they can push the envelope.
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Detroitbred
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Username: Detroitbred

Post Number: 205
Registered: 06-2008
Posted on Monday, January 05, 2009 - 10:38 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thames, you are right, I know families like that too. The fact that the young man was home from the service may have meant there was no place else for him to sleep. It is a stretch to assume they were undressing in front of each other. He did not need to be sleeping in the same room to kill her...they were in the same house. There is something very wrong with that young man, judging from his demeanor in court. Maybe drugs or excessive alcohol that night. I guess we will have to wait to hear more.
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Detroitbred
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Username: Detroitbred

Post Number: 206
Registered: 06-2008
Posted on Monday, January 05, 2009 - 10:44 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I would not be surprised to learn that there was some gang involvement as the reason for the cop killer to do what he did, just to prove how "bad" he is to his gang buddies. His behavior in court was almost that of bravado.
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Chuckjav
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Username: Chuckjav

Post Number: 1353
Registered: 09-2007
Posted on Monday, January 05, 2009 - 7:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

One Small Request....

If you are pointing the poor-parenting finger, without having raised a child (or four) of your own, kindly cease & desist.

Or...at the very least, preface your statements.

(Message edited by chuckjav on January 05, 2009)
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Jcole
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Username: Jcole

Post Number: 5403
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Monday, January 05, 2009 - 7:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If you're referring to me, I have 2 grown daughters, with husbands, and 3 grandchildren.
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Thames
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Username: Thames

Post Number: 350
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Monday, January 05, 2009 - 8:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Glad everything worked out for you Jcole. That's a 100% success rate.

LET IT BE KNOWN: Anything under %100 success rate is unacceptable. It makes you a bad parent and you should go kill yourself, or at least, be killed.

If you are allowed to live, we will take all of your money, so that you will be penniless until you die, or are killed. :-)
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Jcole
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Username: Jcole

Post Number: 5406
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Monday, January 05, 2009 - 8:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What is the smiley face about? And what the hell is 100% about my 'success' rate? I raised two kids who haven't killed anyone. I don't consider that to be an extraordinary feat. I would think that would be the norm. At least it should be.
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Chuckjav
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Username: Chuckjav

Post Number: 1354
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Posted on Monday, January 05, 2009 - 8:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jcole...No, just a general statement, based upon a "vibe" I've picked up here; same vibe I get at my place of employment (a high school).
Far too many teachers making comments about parenting skills - themselves not being parents.

Or worse....

Teachers and/or administrators, I know to be weak in the parenting department - making hypocritical statements about parents of their students.

Parenting is by far the toughest of adult endeavors; upsets me when people pass judgement and cast stones.
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Jcole
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Username: Jcole

Post Number: 5407
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Monday, January 05, 2009 - 9:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I agree with you that it is the toughest of things to do, and do somewhat successfully. I think, though, that there are too many parents who shouldn't be parents. You've got the ones who turn a blind eye, and say 'my child would never do that' and on the other end of the spectrum, you have the ones who plain don't want to be bothered. It doesn't matter if they are rich, poor, black, yellow or white. If you are going to have kids, it's a responsibility that doesn't end when they turn 12, or even 18. There is always some way you can be a positive force, even when they are adults. I'm not saying that every rotten kid had rotten parents or every great kid had great parents, but kids learn a lot by what they see and hear before the age of 7, so parents need to make the best of the early years. Teenagers need to know that we were teens, too, and know what they're up to. My kids weren't perfect, but they stayed in school and out of jail, so I think we did a decent job
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Chuckjav
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Username: Chuckjav

Post Number: 1355
Registered: 09-2007
Posted on Monday, January 05, 2009 - 9:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jcole...You can say that again!
Hopefully the Feds and/or the States will do something about licensing parenthood - as opposed to licensing marriage (with its miserable 50%+ failure rate).

Makes me wonder if parenting success/failure rate reflects that of marriage?

Makes me wonder if we would be better off licensing parenthood AND marriage?
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Jcole
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Username: Jcole

Post Number: 5409
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Monday, January 05, 2009 - 9:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hey, you're a teacher. I know I was preaching to the choir. My husband taught for 35 years, and he saw it all, therefore, I heard it all, albeit second hand. They need to do something to get people who aren't equipped to be parents better training or something. Parenting classes should be mandatory before you leave the hospital with that little bundle of problems wrapped up in pink or blue.
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Kathinozarks
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Username: Kathinozarks

Post Number: 1814
Registered: 11-2006
Posted on Tuesday, January 06, 2009 - 12:17 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

With thousands of humans being born every minute, it's a cinch that some will pop out with a defect or two.
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Kryptonite
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Username: Kryptonite

Post Number: 38
Registered: 11-2008
Posted on Tuesday, January 06, 2009 - 9:20 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Blksoul has done nothing by originating this blog than to prove black people are just as capable of bigotry and racism as anyone. If a white kid had brutally murdered a black cop I guess that would be terrible yet the Oak Park scenario is excusable?? Murder is murder, regardless of the race of the victim or perpetrator. Duh, murder is a BAD thing and nobody that kills is a good person regardless of how much church they attend or how young they are, etc.
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Darwinism
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Username: Darwinism

Post Number: 521
Registered: 06-2005
Posted on Tuesday, January 06, 2009 - 9:25 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

How about a 4-year-old boy in Ohio who decides to shoot his babysitter?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200 90106/ap_on_re_us/young_shoote r

Ladies and gentlemen, parenting and teaching is not a recipe to bake a cake. Putting parents and teachers through weeks and months of training, or putting Super-Nanny or Nanny-911 on the job, doesn't work. Each child needs to be dealt with differently, some just needs a talking to, some needs to be spanked. That is just the reality.

Giving Child Protective Services the power to regulate parenting is the absolute worst mistake our society has done to ourselves. I hear from parents and teachers every day, saying that there is only so much they can do, because they do not want to get in trouble with the law.

Well, you all want better young men and young women in our society? Then do something about the law tying up the hands of parents and teachers.
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Tkshreve
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Username: Tkshreve

Post Number: 709
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Tuesday, January 06, 2009 - 10:30 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Nice Kathinozarks..... nice. For that matter, more community services and taxes should be put forth to help the disabled and mentally ill. They should be given special care and rightfully so. This is one area that deserves more attention. Our injured war veterans and mentally disabled deserve every opportuniyt we can provide. In Kalamazoo, when funding ran out, the city asylum opened its doors and let the patients go. Now they live in bus stops and roam the streets, which does nothing for the city image and progress. Those funds should be diverted from the numerous ways in which governments squander their tax dollars and grants every day.


While liscensing babies seems great on paper, how will you deter the mass unprotected sex that produces a majority of these births (that usually happen out of wedlock)? If someone is trying to have a baby for the wrong reasons (welfare), I think they are going to have that child one way or another.

This wave of misguided parenting and/or ignoring your children is a societal drain. We continue to reproduce at an increasing rate, and if more and more of these people do not know how to be productive, nor do they have a reason to be productive, then we only dig ourselves deeper. Unfortunately, for all of time there have been unproductive individuals within societies, but you would think that as we have evolved, leaders and the people would have moved towards eradicating this drain on society. To my eyes, we have only increased it. Population has increased, but the % of underachievers within the population have increased I suspect.
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Tkshreve
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Username: Tkshreve

Post Number: 710
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Tuesday, January 06, 2009 - 10:39 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Well, you all want better young men and young women in our society? Then do something about the law tying up the hands of parents and teachers.




I agree. My father used his Frat paddle when my brothers and I acted out of line. It makes a difference. It needs to happen in order to maintain the authority and intimidation over the child as he grows up into his teens and early twenties. Without that intimidation, the child feels no fear or reprecussions for his/her deeds.
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Bobl
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Username: Bobl

Post Number: 394
Registered: 07-2008
Posted on Friday, January 16, 2009 - 10:58 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This case bothers me, and deserves more discussion. Last I heard, the accused was to be moved to an adult facility, and it appears that he has been involved in gang activity. The parents stand by their son.
The policeman is dead, and his wife, child and family will never see him again.
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Retroit
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Username: Retroit

Post Number: 822
Registered: 04-2008
Posted on Friday, January 16, 2009 - 11:04 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm sure that we will have plenty more opportunities to discuss similar cases in the future. Until we place a value on human life by punishing those who do not, this type of senseless murder will continue.

God, protect our protectors.
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Scooter2k7
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Username: Scooter2k7

Post Number: 187
Registered: 10-2007
Posted on Friday, January 16, 2009 - 12:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The mother should be charged right along with him. The boy is 16, why did she allow her son to be out so late. No wonder the boy is messed up when he had an obvious failure for a mother. The news media needs to stop putting a mike upto this bitch's face. I am tired of hearing her say not to judge her son. Look you stupid bitch, some baby girl will never see her father again because of your son and your ineffectiveness to properly parent. The boy should hang for this.
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Thames
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Username: Thames

Post Number: 353
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Friday, January 16, 2009 - 8:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Funny you don't even mention his father Scooter2k7.

What else is she supposed to do? That's her child, she will, as a mother, support her child. That's what mothers do. I imagine it takes a tremendous amount of strength and energy to support a child that has done something so heinous and unforgivable.

We can teach our kids until the cows come home, but will they use what they were taught?

I have no idea who this woman is and I refuse to malign her.

Steven Grant’s father committed suicide after it was revealed that his son chopped his wife into bits. I would think most parents of murderers are going through their own personal hell and that they’re probably not bad people.

But then again, I don't have a high horse.
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Whittier70
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Username: Whittier70

Post Number: 219
Registered: 02-2008
Posted on Saturday, January 17, 2009 - 4:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Mr. Grady. . .
. . .weren't you once the caretaker here?
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Davemarc
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Username: Davemarc

Post Number: 139
Registered: 06-2008
Posted on Saturday, January 17, 2009 - 6:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My uncle was killed in the line of duty December 23 1976.It stirs up a lot of emotions when this happens.The Waste of flesh that killed my uncle died in jail.White,black,female,did'nt get enough hugs,having a bad day,whatever,gets an all access ticket to hell.
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Pffft
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Username: Pffft

Post Number: 1211
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Saturday, January 17, 2009 - 6:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The idea that kids shouldn't be judged...hmm, I wonder if this mother's parents or grandparents would feel the same way.
Kids weren't as coddled in previous generations as the current generation of teenagers. If you did wrong, the whole neighborhood would whup you.
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Bobl
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Username: Bobl

Post Number: 413
Registered: 07-2008
Posted on Thursday, January 22, 2009 - 9:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Teen aged witness testifies at Belton's preliminary exam:

A teenage girl testified Thursday that her friend — a teen accused of fatally shooting an Oak Park officer in her apartment building — called her just minutes after the shooting.


He said, “I'm sorry for what I did,” after running away from the Rue Versailles apartment complex, the 15-year-old girl testified in Oak Park's 45B District Court during the preliminary exam for Jonathan Belton, 16, of Detroit. He is charged with first-degree murder and murder of a peace officer in the killing Officer Mason Samborski on Dec. 28.

The preliminary exam is to continue Feb. 5.

The Free Press previously reported and the girl testified that after she heard the gunshot, she entered the hallway from her apartment and saw Belton holding a gun and standing over Samborski's body. The girl said she told Belton in a phone conversation that she didn't see him shoot Samborski.

“And he told me, ‘OK, that's good,'” the girl said.

Apparently, Mr Belton had told the officer that his family lived at the apartment complex, hoping to be dropped off there rather than brought in to the police station.
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Ragtoplover59
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Username: Ragtoplover59

Post Number: 475
Registered: 09-2006
Posted on Thursday, January 22, 2009 - 10:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

A Person was Killed!

( Cop, Trash man, Store Mgr, Bus Driver, Homeless Person, Really does not matter who it was?)

A Person was Killed!
Homicide, Not Manslaughter!
With Intent, Not by Accident!
A PERSON WAS MURDERED !

The Good News,
He was Caught, Arrested, Jailed, and is awaiting trial!

The Bad News,
Most likely will be no further punishment for his deeds, Instead he will just wait in his cell until some smart lawyer will find a flaw in the Rock Solid Case, and get him out on some BS technicality?

Someone, somewhere, is working on that right now, Their reputation is on the line!

It is harder to convict this person, then it is for the defense to just wait until someone screws up and gives the defense a win?

In my own opinion that is the problem with our legal system, and our country!


Bobl
I do want to thank you for bringing this topic back to the top, It is an important thing for people to think about! I do feel very strong in my belief about what should happen to people who commit these types of crimes, and in no uncertain terms. and I also appreciate posters that may come back and give me a different perspective from their own 'experience'

(Message edited by Ragtoplover59 on January 22, 2009)
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Scooter2k7
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Username: Scooter2k7

Post Number: 190
Registered: 10-2007
Posted on Friday, January 23, 2009 - 12:25 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thames she can support her son all she wants. The fact is she is a failure as a mother and a human being. I would be willing to bet that she never had control over her son. She is a waste.
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Penelopetheduck
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Username: Penelopetheduck

Post Number: 27
Registered: 09-2006
Posted on Friday, January 23, 2009 - 10:43 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This is such a horrible tragedy. It's so awful that a young man who could have been a role model to others, who had so many talents he could use for good, instead decided, probably in a few seconds, to kill another person.
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Bobl
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Username: Bobl

Post Number: 418
Registered: 07-2008
Posted on Saturday, January 24, 2009 - 1:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Had a discussion about this with an acquaintance who is a retired Detroit cop. Eighty years old.
We went back and forth, considering the role of parents, schools, and the community. We talked about the lack of role models and the lack of respect for others.
His last observation: "Some people are just no damned good."
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Mustangford
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Username: Mustangford

Post Number: 17
Registered: 08-2007
Posted on Saturday, January 24, 2009 - 1:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I read about the the value of human life in a few different posts. Well we live in a Country that up until the day a baby is born it can be Murdered, then tossed in a garbage can. I agree both the young Man from Oak Park and the Guy from Highland Twp. deserve what ever they get. I also believe that there has to be some kind of Mental defect in both these boys to do what they did. The kid in Highland Park wanted to be caught, he diposed of the Knives and bloody clothes in a bag with his dog tags in it. But I believe that we live in a culture of Death, starting with Roe V Wade, up through the years of TV shows, Movies and Music. Another good example of our disregard for life was the passing of Proposal 2 in November. If a person took a Dog that was pregnet and cut it open,or shot chemicals in it to induce the death of Puppies the people in the US would scream Animal abuser, but with a Human Life it is ok? I would rather see a baby born into this world have a chance than see it killed. Our new President is a good example of this he was raised by his Mother and his Grand Parrents, if Abortion was ok when he was born would he be here? Would any of us that were born before 1972? Just food for thought. My prayers are with both of these familys, one Lost a Daughter and a Son and the other lost a son. But also in the Oak Park Case A Child lost a Dad and a Wife Lost Her Husband. It amazes me that 250 Thousan Pro Life People decended on Washington DC on Thursday to Remember Roe V Wade and not even a small mention on ABC News.com. I want to appoligise in advance for any spelling ar gramerical errors.
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Detx
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Username: Detx

Post Number: 247
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Posted on Saturday, January 24, 2009 - 6:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Nice post, Mustangford. You hit the nail on the head concerning the hypocrisy of Western values.
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Salvadordelmundo
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Username: Salvadordelmundo

Post Number: 138
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Saturday, January 24, 2009 - 6:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I don't see how abortion has anything to do with it, since abortions have been legal in the US for decades (nationwide since 1972), and since that time, the murder rate has gone up and down (and went down quite a bit from 1991 to 2000) due to other factors.

Abortion is also legal in Canada, but we don't see this sort of violence there with the same frequency. Why is that?
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Bobl
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Username: Bobl

Post Number: 420
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Posted on Sunday, January 25, 2009 - 12:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm not sure that the abortion issue is relevant here. Most countries that have more "liberal" abortion policies than ours have much lower murder rates. Nations that have "sharia" type laws consider abortion a crime, but tolerate "honor killings" and mutilations, and call for the stoning to death of females who are merely accused of infidelity.
Perhaps the abortion discussion should be located on a different thread.

(Message edited by Bobl on January 25, 2009)
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Gralr
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Username: Gralr

Post Number: 60
Registered: 12-2008
Posted on Sunday, January 25, 2009 - 2:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Get the Gov involved with licensing parenthood. They are the ones that screwed up everything they touch. One look around and that is obvious. The whole social structure has collapsed. We grew up to respect those in charge and they most of the time deserved our respect. We did not sas our parents, or teachers. We went to school to learn, we were afraid of doing wrong. Now there is no fear of good authority, probably because most of the authority seems to be corrupt.

Consider really how there are no authorities unless we the people grant them the authority to act in our behalf. The gov is supposed to be by the people and is reflective of the people. The gov is not God and does not grant us rights, rather it is only there to protect our rights. Well that is what I was taught in school.
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Thames
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Username: Thames

Post Number: 359
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Sunday, January 25, 2009 - 4:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Gralr, first you say to get the govt involved, then you say the govt is what screwed everything up in the first place.

I really don't understand what you are trying to say there, but the rest has all been said before:

"The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers." Socrates (469–399 B.C.)

"I see no hope for the future of our people if they are dependent on frivolous youth of today, for certainly all youth are reckless beyond words... When I was young, we were taught to be discreet and respectful of elders, but the present youth are exceedingly wise,[disrespectful] and impatient of restraint" Hesiod (8th century BC).
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Gralr
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Username: Gralr

Post Number: 62
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Posted on Sunday, January 25, 2009 - 5:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

sorry, I was referring to a comment posted above, regarding getting the government involved in licensing parenthood, which of course I think is the wrong thing to even consider.
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Ragtoplover59
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Username: Ragtoplover59

Post Number: 511
Registered: 09-2006
Posted on Wednesday, February 04, 2009 - 6:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bump,,
Because we still need to know WHY!

What has been the latest word on this case?
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Retroit
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Username: Retroit

Post Number: 914
Registered: 04-2008
Posted on Wednesday, February 04, 2009 - 7:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

^ Because we as a society have decided to reward killers with 20 years of free housing, free three meals a day, free entertainment, free recreation, free excercise room, free health care, free legal aid, free education, etc.

Almost makes ME want to kill someone!

If a person knew they would be hanging from a rope in front of the Court House, maybe they'd act differently. But we can't do THAT.
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Bobl
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Username: Bobl

Post Number: 468
Registered: 07-2008
Posted on Friday, February 06, 2009 - 9:54 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

From a Daily Tribune article (Feb 6):

"...About a dozen of Belton's friends and relatives gathered in a circle and prayed in the courtroom during a break Thursday.

Defense attorney Wright Blake questioned why Samborski didn't notify police dispatch that he was taking Belton to the apartment after the suspect was stopped Dec. 28.

"There's a lot of unanswered questions," Blake said. Belton's "decision to run wasn't wise, but he turned himself in to face the music."

Belton's mother and some other relatives were barred from Thursday's hearing because they may be called as witnesses by the prosecution.

Jawana Belton outside the court complained that her son, who is held without bond in the Oakland County Jail, is not getting his mail or being allowed to shower.

"He hasn't been convicted of anything," she said.

She denied that Belton told her to retrieve his T-shirt from outside the Rue Versailles apartment building when she talked to him at the Oak Park Public Safety building.

"He did not say anything about the case," she said."...

I will again quote a wise acquaintance of mine, an eighty year old retired Detroit cop:
"Some people are just no damned good."
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Scooter2k7
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Username: Scooter2k7

Post Number: 205
Registered: 10-2007
Posted on Friday, February 06, 2009 - 10:01 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The kid has no shot, he will be spending the rest of his miserable life in prision. Too bad that Michigan does not the death penalty, because he deserves to have a noose placed around his neck!
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Raj313
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Username: Raj313

Post Number: 9
Registered: 01-2009
Posted on Friday, February 06, 2009 - 10:17 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Come on, what is this Guantanamo Bay, or Abu Ghraib under the Bush administration? A person has rights in this country. Let it all play out and if found guilty then he deserves the same consideration the Cop got. Until then he deserves to bathe and make a phone call.
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Raj313
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Username: Raj313

Post Number: 10
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Posted on Friday, February 06, 2009 - 10:19 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Come on, what is this Guantanamo Bay, or Abu Ghraib under the Bush administration? A person has rights in this country. Let it all play out and if found guilty then he deserves the same consideration the Cop got. Until then he deserves to bathe and make a phone call.
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Vas
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Username: Vas

Post Number: 461
Registered: 01-2004
Posted on Friday, February 06, 2009 - 10:23 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

A society can not ask and lead people not to kill, when it in turn kills.
We're fortunate to have morality and integrity in Michigan without the death penalty.

If we depend on penalties to deter crime, then I'll refrence TOOL and say that "Its only wrong when I get caught." That is a society not based off values but based off of chance. ....and people will take their chances

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