  Warrenite84 Member Username: Warrenite84 Post Number: 466 Registered: 01-2007 |
For those of you who think businesses should be the ones to pay for transit: The question here is who benefits? Would a business relocate to a city for the priveledge to pay for a transit system that would bring customers and employees? No. Only existing businesses would be willing to pay extra for something to improve business, like a BID(Business Improvement District), for example. An upgraded transit system benefits existing residents the most because it increases a population's mobility and marketability to draw in businesses. Like fertilizing the earth before you plant the seed. That is why many other communities dig into their own pockets to pay for improved transit. I feel a modest sales tax, maybe less than 1 Cent would be enough to fully fund this project, along with the approved TIF,(Tax Increment Financing). A State Constitutional Ammendment should also be approved to prevent ANY governmental entity from tapping into the fund for projects other than mass transit. | ||
El_jimbo Member Username: El_jimbo Post Number: 894 Registered: 12-2006 |
would we need 300 miles of track? Downtown Pontiac to Campus Martius (Woodward Line) is 25 miles, 12 Oaks Mall to Campus Martius (Grand River Line) is 25 miles, Downtown Mt. Clemens to Campus Martius (Gratiot Line) is 20 miles, Downtown Wayne to Campus Martius (Michigan Line) is 18 miles, Downtown Plymouth through Livonia to Campus Martius (Ford Line) is 24 miles, Sterling Heights to Campus Martius (Mound Line) 19 miles, St. Clair Shores through the points to Campus Martius (Jefferson Line) 17 miles, and Downtown Wyandotte through Lincoln Park, Allen Park, and Melvindale to Campus Martius is 17 miles. That only adds up to 165 miles of total track. Sure there are a few other things you could add. A spur off the Michigan line at Merriman that goes to both terminals of metro airport. That's about 7 additional mile. If you wanted to provide some East-West connectivity you could add a route down 8 mile or you could extend the Ford Line 4 miles to Downtown Northville but in all honesty, that would be a VERY comprehensive light rail system. If the plan calls for $10.5 Billion there must be some commuter rail or other things built into the plan. | ||
Transitrider Member Username: Transitrider Post Number: 80 Registered: 01-2007 |
El Jimbo: bingo. The $10.5 B figure is not just for LRT, but for the whole system, the Regional Transit Plan over 25 years, including bus improvements, ART, BRT and commuter rail, information, consolidated info number and website, etc. The first phase addresses current needs (LRT on Woodward, bus improvements, information and signage, and expanded commuter/rapid/express/limited bus options including the newly-coined Arterial Rapid Transit or ART, a sort of cross between Express and BRT.) Each subsequent phase will change with demand and ridership. So pessimists can take comfort that nothing extra will be built unless demand calls for it, and optimists can expect that successes in Phase One will drive bigger improvements and additions sooner.  | ||
Retroit Member Username: Retroit Post Number: 695 Registered: 04-2008 |
If $10.5 Billion can build 300 miles of rail line, then maybe I need to reconsider my opposition. Not sure where we'll find a spare $10.5 Billion from, but a system that will tie all (or many) of the various communities of Metro Detroit together may have more support than just an 8 mile Detroit line. | ||
El_jimbo Member Username: El_jimbo Post Number: 895 Registered: 12-2006 |
Retroit, We can get a LOT of that money from the Feds. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 4151 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: I think that's the idea. The Woodward Corridor suburbs in Oakland County, in particular, are very pro-transit, and would benefit well from better transit linkage with the rest of the region. Older, closer-in Wayne County suburbs would do just as well. | ||
Digitalvision Member Username: Digitalvision Post Number: 1329 Registered: 11-2003 |
El Jimbo - your calculations have a fatal flaw.. you forget there are going to need to be many east-west connectors, and Campus Martius won't be the only center. You probably will see centers at Royal Oak, Pontiac, and Birmingham, at least, to get OC on board. There is going to need to be a 16 mile line to serve Troy's business district, a line about where 696 is through Royal Oak and Southfield, 8 mile for sure... and there'll have to be some others such as 14 mile, not to mention Telegraph up to Pontiac which will never touch Campus Martius. We'll hit 300 easy. But you're right on the Fed money - probably about half is going to be federally funded. | ||
El_jimbo Member Username: El_jimbo Post Number: 896 Registered: 12-2006 |
I know there will be a lot of east west connectors. The reason I didn't initially add them into my light rail calculations is because I'm not sure there is the density along those routes to justify light rail as the means of transit. Perhaps those routes would be better addressed with BRT or regular bus service. I tried to keep the routes I created tied closely to major corridors of travel (the "spoke" roads). So you are absolutely right about east-west (and perhaps some north-south routes, but as I said, it is uncertain as to what form of transit would be best along those routes. | ||
Retroit Member Username: Retroit Post Number: 698 Registered: 04-2008 |
^ Don't worry about the density. People will be flocking to those routes. (Or so I've been told.) | ||
Transitrider Member Username: Transitrider Post Number: 81 Registered: 01-2007 |
Retroit, re: post#695: Yes, and remember that's an average of $389 million/year (probably less sooner and more later) for the whole system over 27 years (2009-2035). And if we pool our local money correctly and apply through federal process, the feds will match capital costs 40-60%. http://semcog.org/RTCC_OpenHouse.aspx RTCC Comprehensive Regional Transit Plan = tri-county, 27-year plan approved by Big 4. And Washtenaw County has expressed interest in particpating or at least cooperating and coordinating with the RTCC, especially since the Ann Arbor-Detroit commuter train project spans Wayne-Wash. Cos. LRT on Woodward is a component of the plan. When DTOGS started 2 years ago, they only had the jurisdiction to make a proposal within the city limits (although Ferndale said they would gladly join and pay for their share if it could be stretched to 9 Mile, but that raised the specter of having to deal with LBP too early in the process.) Meanwhile, Penske & Co. decided they could raise $100M for a first phase to Grand Blvd. Now the 2 projects are merging. First phase of LRT on Woodward will go to Grand Blvd, second phase will go to 11 mile/Royal Oak TC. Subsequent phases could go to Birmingham, maybe even beyond if demand warrants it, but by then there should be commuter rail from Pontiac, later Flint. We have some private money to leverage, but we will need other local sources too. Fortunately, the feds and new admininstration are much more willing to work with us now that we have an official, approved plan, which we never had before, even before we ripped up our rail. (So RR can retire that copy-and-paste file ) P.S. Regarding hubs other than downtown, see Page 9. http://semcog.org/RTCC_OpenHouse.aspx (Message edited by transitrider on January 07, 2009) | ||
Andyguard73 Member Username: Andyguard73 Post Number: 291 Registered: 03-2006 |
Retroit, I know that you were saying that the 10.5 billion could be put to better use on other things. I might be mistaken, but I'm under the impression that we would not get that money for anything other than transit. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 4152 Registered: 10-2003 |
It sounds like a lot of money, but think about how long this investment will last. This isn't like a roadway, that needs to be resurfaced every 15 years and completely reconstructed every 50. Once rails are installed, they'll last at least 100 years (if properly maintained) and continue to drive investment as long as they remain in place. | ||
Trainman Member Username: Trainman Post Number: 700 Registered: 04-2006 |
Quote Trainman, what are you talking about with a SMART property tax to replace the state and federal gas tax? I work in transportation and I've heard of no such thing. End of Quote. SMART was fully funded by federal and state fuel taxes prior to 1995. Today, they account for only a small fraction of the budget and all the operating funds are from property taxes. My proposal is to restore revenue sharing to serve every community equally based on many factors such as the need to remove cars from freeways, income levels and to protect our environment from both urban decay and the destruction of forests and wetlands. It's a fact that expanding roads encourages growth in undeveloped areas and deprives cities such as Detroit and Livonia from much needed funding to attract businesses. My plan is Option One in my website in DETROIT LINKS. It is extremely detailed and it does work. We need the best minds to make mass transit work and the two billion dollar freeway expansion plan does not come from those with the best minds. It should be scrapped and replaced with a better plan by voting NO next August 2010. Or, vote YES and you will get the two billion dollar freeways and bus service reductions. It's your choice, DY'ers. | ||
Crumbled_pavement Member Username: Crumbled_pavement Post Number: 651 Registered: 08-2007 |
quote: I agree with River_rat's ultimate conclusion, although I disagree with his method of arriving at that conclusion. Nevertheless, I don't think there is anywhere near the needed cooperation in this area to even begin LRT. Let's review what has happened so far. Someone made a nice proposal, four leaders gave their blessings to the plan, yet not one nickel of funding was discussed. Wait until it comes time to hammer out the details on the tax that will be needed to fund this and watch how quickly this whole thing falls apart. Metro Detroit may need rapid transit, but like everything else Metro Detroit needs - it'll never come! | ||
Russix Member Username: Russix Post Number: 171 Registered: 11-2006 |
That's why when the last person leaves metro detroit, it definitely won't be on rails. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4026 Registered: 10-2003 |
Crumbled_pavement, Be sure to pass that on to all of the party's on both sides of the aisle that have been working on this for years. Please do let them know that all of their work has been in vain and for nought. I'd share the pessimism if this wasn't so far along and if it was only being supported by one political party or one ideology, or if there was wiggle room because the economy had not tanked so epically, but there are too many people and parties at the table and too much riding on this in these tough times, this time, for this to so likely fall apart. IMO, this is easily more likely to happen than not, this time around, not the other way around. | ||
River_rat Member Username: River_rat Post Number: 344 Registered: 02-2006 |
I appreciate crumbledpavement refreshing my now over three and a half year old comments on why there won't be mass transit in Detroit. For daninDC, there is no possible connection between the success of Metro in the Washington area and the possibility of any sort of system in Detroit. No two areas could be more desparate in their makeup. When President Obama takes office there will be the "infrastructure revitalization" spending plan that will sent an amount aproaching $1 TRILLION out in the greatest pork barrel ever seen. Unfortunately, it is highly unlikely it will come to Southeastern Michigan for the reasons in my oft-repeated post. There is another and even more sinister reason. Detroit and Michigan are firmly in the Democratic Party column and will remain so even if no money comes here. As smart politicians know, the money will go to 'swing' states and areas where the next vote can be influenced. If you are a democrat, you don't need to buy votes here, you have them for nothing. Sure, maybe a paltry $10 million for buses, but billions ..... dream on about those steam locomotives on Woodward. The national economy will be so much worse in three months, we won't really worry about mass transit. Remember, it was my post in late 2006 that said our auto companies would be bankrupt early in 2009; I missed it by a month or two. I don't like to be the curmudgen of doom, but reality is the way to face our future. At this time, no one is facing our continuing 'disinflation' (really deflation) and the reality that in order to get out of this economic quagmire we need to reduce wages and produce products at a competitive price. And yes, it means every auto exec will need to take a salary haircut. Don't worry about the fat cat shareholders and bondholders, they already have seen their money go to money heaven (or hell). Bottom line, no matter how much planning and design has gone into mass transit for our area; it isn't going to happen. Obama or not. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 4158 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: Please elaborate. If I'm not mistaken, we're talking about the same malaises: urban disinvestment, massive flight to the suburbs, lack of economic opportunity in neighborhoods, large poor populations without access to private transportation, and low property values. Please explain how 2000's Detroit differs from 1960s Washington, DC in these regards. You're comparing present-day to present-day, which of course, is a false premise. You have casually dismissed billions of dollars in investment in the DC area directly attributed to the rail transit system, yet offer no rational reason for doing so. quote: You are misusing the term "pork barrel". Pork barrel spending is monies allocated to uses other than those stated as the primary purpose of the bill. Casually labelling infrastructure investment as "pork barrel spending" is disingenuous. quote: And Detroit's regional economy will be worse still, since the underemployed in the urban core have no realistic means of transportation to reach jobs where they do exist. quote: One fortuitious guess, and suddenly you're correct about everything else? Should we call you "River Rat", or "Matt Drudge"? | ||
French777 Member Username: French777 Post Number: 642 Registered: 10-2006 |
You Have to start somewhere. . You just can't build a MetroRail system in 2 years that connects all 3 counties. Woodward light Rail would be used Very Well. . Oakland County residents could park in the OC and still travel to Detroit. also. . . Most Republicans are Opposed to Mass TRANSIT funding! (Message edited by french777 on January 11, 2009) | ||
Retroit Member Username: Retroit Post Number: 764 Registered: 04-2008 |
Danindc, here is one big difference between Detroit and the Arlington, VA area: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H ighest-income_counties_in_the_ United_States Since the 1960's Great Society program, Washington has grown tremendously in wealth. An the contrary, Detroit has been struggling to maintain its position as Car Capital in the face of foreign influence. Maybe we ought to socialize our auto industry and outsource our government. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 4159 Registered: 10-2003 |
^^^Again, that's CURRENT data! Do you propose the median household income of Arlington was $95,000 when it was filled with used car dealers and pawn shops? I'm not even sure what "wealth" and "transit" have to do with one another. I could just as easily show you the median household income of present-day Queens. | ||
Glowblue Member Username: Glowblue Post Number: 117 Registered: 09-2008 |
quote: http://www.fta.dot.gov/about/a bout_FTA_22.html Lookit all dem blue states. quote: Steam locomotives? LOL. Are you for real? quote: Lowering prices combats deflation? Really? The site admin really ought to seal the portal to Bizarro World that seams to be spitting its denizens onto DYes. | ||
Retroit Member Username: Retroit Post Number: 766 Registered: 04-2008 |
Danindc, my point is this: Arlington would have become prosperous even if mass transit had not been built, and Detroit would be no more prosperous even if mass transit had been built. In other words, it's not mass transit that makes a difference, it is the underlying fundamentals of the economy. Yes, if mass transit is built and the "social engineers" structure zoning laws so as to confine commercial growth around transit stops, then, yes, transit can increase density at those stops. But mass transit is not some kind of building sprouting Chia-Pet. | ||
Glowblue Member Username: Glowblue Post Number: 118 Registered: 09-2008 |
quote: Are you arguing that transportation infrastructure does not encourage real estate development? Reality seems to contradict that assertion. Metro Detroit, like all metro areas, is a product of the kind of transportation infrastructure it has. | ||
River_rat Member Username: River_rat Post Number: 345 Registered: 02-2006 |
DaninDC. For starters, about the differences between DC in the 60's and Detroit now, one has always been a service, government and non-manufacturing based city, the other totally dependent on industry. Second comment. When the final bill gets out of both houses of Congress it will be like every other appropriation in the past. Pork. I am writing this from Washington right now and from an insider standpoint the pork pie being talked about isn't a hat. Third. Arlington had some less the first rate areas in the 60's, but NEVER did it have a tenth of the widespread devastation of the economy of Detroit. Finally, when you make the assumption that my auto industry call was fortuitously lucky, you are just wrong. Many of us had the foresight to short the economy and have done well. I'm never happy to short, but when the government and the lack of genuinely good regulation put you as an entity at risk, you do what is right for yourself. As you know and I have remarked in posts previously, I have great respect for the expertise of DaninDC about mass transit and the ecomonic possibilities it brings to a region, but this is not a region that can expect to have a transit program for the reasons I outlined. Now, Glowblue. Steam locomotives is a joke. I said nothing about lowering prices directly. I said lowering wages in this area to be able to produce a product at a competitive price. Very different. The vote for a tax referendum on mass transit is still twenty months away. Does anyone really think it will pass? Increase your taxes? Now we are really in Bizarro World. Get them busses rolling! | ||
Glowblue Member Username: Glowblue Post Number: 119 Registered: 09-2008 |
quote: Very different, but still very stupid. Nothing exacerbates a deflationary spiral like lower wages. | ||
Russix Member Username: Russix Post Number: 176 Registered: 11-2006 |
Its completely an urban building sprouting money maker. Detroit land is under utilized because its current infrasture is lacking the neccesities that it needs to grow and that it once had to sustain it in the first place. Cities exist to support a human existance that doesn't dictate the use of an automobile to survive. There is no city in a America or the rest of the first world to compare ourselves to, we're that flat ass backwards on this concept and your skeptism only enlightens us to the deeper ignorance convulting in this land on to how this have could happened in the first place and why it has taken so long to fix it. | ||
River_rat Member Username: River_rat Post Number: 346 Registered: 02-2006 |
We have not had a deflationary spiral such as the current crisis in 70 years. I agree that no one has any idea what to do to ameliorate what is happening to our economy. In the thirties (the last great defation) we didn't have the same infrastructure rebuild mechanics we do now. Then, thousands were 'shovel-ready'. Now, a few machines do the work of thousands. Huge conundrum. GM and Chrysler (Cerebrus) burn rate is accelerating and they won't make it to the deadline date set by the 535 no-nothings. The sky is falling and to stick to the thread, there won't be any mass transit for trainman or anyone else. In this country, rail is for freight. Every transit system in the country is projecting massive shortfalls and even the DC Metro is looking at service decreases (as is Chicago, NYC, Atlanta, SF, etc.) | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 4161 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: So the occupations and job titles are different. Care to address any of the socioeconomic factors I listed above? quote: I suppose I'd like to know what you're waiting for. To me, 300,000 city residents without access to private automobiles (and hence, jobs) is reason enough. Are you waiting for everything about Detroit to be perfect before the mistake of 1956 is corrected? Detroit's number one problem right now is disinvestment, and other cities are seeing billions of dollars of investment along rail transit lines--transit lines paid for in part by your federal tax dollars. quote: So imposing poverty-level wages for everyone is supposed to spur economic growth? | ||
River_rat Member Username: River_rat Post Number: 347 Registered: 02-2006 |
DaninDC, Sad as it is, societies and regions come and go. My affection for Detroit will never cease, but the Detroit that was, will never be again. And reducing UAW wage structure to a reasonable level sure doesn't equate to 'poverty level'. If reality is to be faced and solutions realized, the 300,000 you talk about may find it better to go elsewhere, but in the current economy, there isn't anywhere to go. Next week I will be at the inauguration with however many other thousands show up and Hope and Change will begin. I sure hope it works out. I'll be listening to what is said of substance and meaning. Disinvestment in Detroit is the result of decades of corrupt and incompetent government, non-functional judicial system, inefficient and self-serving management and unions. It has nothing to do with the lack of mass transit. Really now |
