  Ventura67 Member Username: Ventura67 Post Number: 173 Registered: 12-2003 |
No utility should ever be run for private profit- EVER. Yes, it is ridiculous to shut electricity off in the middle of winter, for ANY reason. No payment?- cost of doing business, a cost which publicly owned utilities would be more likely to bear than privately owned ones. Nationalize all utilities NOW! Just my 3 cents. | ||
Downtown_lady Member Username: Downtown_lady Post Number: 513 Registered: 08-2008 |
Cheddar Bob, please, will you stop bullying people? If it's not Ltorivia it's Sean of Detroit. It seems like you target someone and then you're relentless. Could you please just stick to the issues? We are not in grade school. You come across as the guy on the playground who beat up the kid with glasses and then stole his lunch money. | ||
Thames Member Username: Thames Post Number: 360 Registered: 02-2007 |
Since he had no children, I can see how a 93 y/o wouldn't have any family left. He had the presence of mind to have the bill and have the correct amount of money clipped to it. The article said it was all together, sitting on the kitchen table. I think if the guy had his wits about him enough to do that, he probably had enough sense to call the power company regarding his payment. It seems that money wasn't the issue for not paying, but rather getting the payment to them. Somehow, he was getting food, he didn't die of starvation. If someone was looking after him and bringing him necessities, then they should have helped him get his bill paid. If he was taking care of himself and able to tend to his own needs, then I just don't understand why he didn't take care of his bill. There's not enough information right now, so I don't fault the power company...yet. | ||
Ravine Member Username: Ravine Post Number: 3028 Registered: 01-2006 |
"It is not the responsibility of the power company to determine if a man needs a psych eval! Are you fucking kidding me. What fairy tale fucking world do you idiots live in?" Tres bien, Gumby. That final question is one which frequently crosses my mind when perusing the threads in this forum. One of the ignorant, non-insightful attitudes displayed in our overly-litigious society is the insistence on believing that every time something bad happens, the occurrence was directly caused by a punishable fault on someone's part. We simply begin with that feeble-minded conclusion, then proceed into the process of Selecting a Scapegoat. This incident is awful, of course, and there may be persons who are culpable, but-- despite our prodigious intellects and insights-- I don't think we yahoos on DetroitYes! are in much of a position to make a determination in that regard. | ||
Raptor56 Member Username: Raptor56 Post Number: 722 Registered: 05-2007 |
"Putting a difficult to restart limiter on the electric power " If they used a thermal limiter, it can be difficult to reset. A simple mechanical limiter, which is more popular, is a simple circuit breaker reste and is not difficult to restart. The newer limiters are even easier to reset http://www.wectech.com/SLA2000 LP.pdf There is NO mention of the type of limiter installed on teh service line. For all we know it could have been an auto reseting limiter that became defective. In which case you can start blaming the limiter manufactuerer for heartless murder. | ||
Rickinatlanta Member Username: Rickinatlanta Post Number: 246 Registered: 07-2006 |
This is truly unfortunate that this gentleman died in this manner. However, the online bill account information for a utility typically does not show the age of the customer nor any possible mental state. Nor does it show any detailed medical information unless the customer or a concerned relative/friend lets the utility know, i.e person on a respirator or other life support. While this is apparently a small supplier, they do have more than one customer who has not paid their bills. Without re-reading this whole thread, I believe this is a municipal electric utility which is a not for profit. This persons power was not "cut off" but limited. Apparently a neighbor knew enough of this mans situation to check on him after several days of not hearing from him. If this neighbor knew the situation enough to check on him after a period of time, why didn't they check sooner. Yet some posters say the utility who knew far less than the concerned neighbor should have acted sooner than that? | ||
Downtown_lady Member Username: Downtown_lady Post Number: 514 Registered: 08-2008 |
What is so difficult about the idea of just not installing a limiter in the winter? As a side note, regardless of who was to blame in this incident, regardless of what should or should not be changed in the way utilities conduct business, one thing is clear: this thread has truly illuminated for me some very compassionate people and some that are anything but compassionate. Facts aside, right and wrong aside, people's posts tell a lot about them. | ||
Ltorivia485 Member Username: Ltorivia485 Post Number: 993 Registered: 08-2004 |
Very true, Downtown lady. Very true. It's despicable how some people belittle human life. | ||
Ltorivia485 Member Username: Ltorivia485 Post Number: 994 Registered: 08-2004 |
Woo-hoo! State legislators have published a press release about this very tragic incident. The state Attorney General Mike Cox is also looking into this matter. Update: Bay City Electric Power has suspended limiters this season and will review their policy Mayes, Barcia Demand Answers About Death of Bay City Resident 93-year-old World War II veteran froze to death inside his home LANSING – State Representative Jeff Mayes (D-Bay City) and State Senator Jim Barcia (D-Bay City) today called for a review of the tragic death of Marvin E. Schur, a 93-year-old World War II veteran, who froze to death in his Bay City home after Bay City Electric Light & Power placed a device on his home to limit his electric use. "I am shocked and saddened by this tragedy," said Mayes, Chair of the House Energy and Technology Committee. "Though we're still getting more information, what's clear is that this man's death was entirely preventable. Until we understand this unfortunate situation, we need a moratorium on all electric shut-offs as well as the use of these limiting devices, in order to ensure that this does not happen again." Schur, who owed more than $1,000 to Bay City Electric Light and Power, had a limiter device placed on his home on January 13 to restrict the amount of electricity that the home can use. If the homeowner uses too much electricity, the device shuts off all power to the home, and needs to be reset. City officials believe that nobody explained the device's operation to Schur, who tripped the device and did not reset it. Schur's body was found January 17. "Under no circumstances should a person suffer what Marvin Schur did," Barcia said. "We need to know what happened and what we can do to prevent this from happening anywhere in our state, ever again. In the meantime, Bay City Electric Light & Power should suspend all shut-offs and use of regulators for the remainder of this winter season." Mayes and Barcia have called for a review by the Michigan Public Service Commission to review city shut-off policies and offer recommendations to Bay City in order to prevent similar occurrences in the future. Additionally, Mayes is calling for a subcommittee in the House of Representatives to review policies and make additional recommendations. Mayes and Barcia are also drafting legislation to protect vulnerable citizens like seniors and the people with disabilities during the winter months. Both are working on efforts in the House and Senate that not only would restrict power shutoffs between November and April, but also would ban the use of limiter devices until strict criteria are met that would protect the safety of homeowners. http://www.senate.mi.gov/dem/p r.php?id=1167 This shows the power of compassionate people! | ||
Det313grrl Member Username: Det313grrl Post Number: 472 Registered: 01-2005 |
It was disheartening to hear that he had all of the bills on his table with cash paperclipped to them. | ||
Gumby Member Username: Gumby Post Number: 983 Registered: 11-2003 |
Downtown_lady You are letting your emotions cloud the true issues. Yes, it is a horrible tragedy that this guy has died. I do not believe I have seen anyone dispute that fact. But for some reason all of a sudden those of us that don't believe the utility company is responsible, somehow we are terrible people. Might it be a good idea to have a moratorium on shut offs during the winter, maybe. But all the while that bill is going to be racking up because believe me some people won't pay it and come the spring it is going to be in the neighborhood of 1000 - 1500 bucks. I have seen shut off notices upwards of 3000 dollars and have heard stories from other workers around 10000. How Consumers Energy let it get to that is beyond me but DHS only helps with up to 1100 a year (too much if you ask me) so where does that leave the client? Plus lay off cheddar_bob he may be a little over the top but he just a sarcastic person who has no problem calling bull shit when he sees it and quite often he is right. | ||
Downtown_lady Member Username: Downtown_lady Post Number: 516 Registered: 08-2008 |
Gumby, my thoughts on people showing their compassion or lack of is just a side note. It's unrelated to the issues because as I mentioned it has nothing to do with who is right and who is wrong or who was at fault in this case. It was just an observation on how people present themselves. And seriously, between me and Cheddar Bob, I'm the one you tell to "lay off"? Uh, OK. Yeah, I don't want to pick on poor Cheddar Bob (great irony there, huh?). I'd hate to interrupt him while he's relentlessly laying into the same folks over and over again. Like Cheddar Bob I have no problem calling bullshit either, which is what I did. | ||
Firstandten Member Username: Firstandten Post Number: 603 Registered: 05-2006 |
There needs to be a moratorium on shutoffs during the winter months period .And under certain conditions and prior approval there should be a summertime moratorium for seniors. Other states have this I believe Ohio is even discussing this. The utility is either an monopoly or oligopoly in the communities they service so they will get there money eventually. DTE is good for cutting people off in the middle of winter. I'm waiting for their PR nightmare to happen and how they are going to spin it. | ||
Cheddar_bob Member Username: Cheddar_bob Post Number: 1664 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: Yeah, like how you belittle Arthur Ashe's life by calling him a "major, serious" sinner because he had the audacity to die of AIDs. I guess he shouldn't have had that blood transfusion. Despicable is right. It's also despicable how you jump to assigning blame to a company that had no previous knowledge of someone's mental state, or even his age. Want to discontinue the practice of limiters in the winter? Go ahead, but didn't try pinning this one where it doesn't belong. quote: No, I won't. I can't stand stupid people and/or hipocrites and I pick on them because they deserve it. Speaking of hipocrites, you write... quote: And then three hours later, we get... quote: So I guess we should just fawn all over your "unrelated sidenotes", but you chide me for pointing out previous hipocrisy in someone else as "not sticking to the point"? Do you see what I'm getting at here, Downtownlady? | ||
Gumby Member Username: Gumby Post Number: 984 Registered: 11-2003 |
quote: Yeah, you are the one I told to lay off because his comments were not directed at you. Perhaps you missed the thread where the people he is directing anger towards were dismissing AIDS victims as just sinners who were getting what they deserved. Then they come on this thread and ask where our compassion is, that is true bull shit. | ||
Ltorivia485 Member Username: Ltorivia485 Post Number: 996 Registered: 08-2004 |
Gumby and Cheddar, if you feel so compassionate for these AIDS victims, why don't you go out and help them? I refuse to associate myself with people who have lots of negative karma. Oh yes, that's right, you don't believe in such a thing, and you certainly don't believe in the Bible. Karma is nothing to play with. There's no point in arguing with you two so the insults need to cease now. It's one thing to let an innocent man like this WWII veteran freeze to death in his own home in the middle of winter. It's another to say we should feel sorry for people who engaged in unsafe sexual habits and could care less about infecting others. Stop destroying this thread because you two have nothing else to do but act like jerks. Your actions also have a negative impact. But that's right, you simply don't care. | ||
Jcole Member Username: Jcole Post Number: 5570 Registered: 04-2005 |
quote: Karma and the Bible have absolutely no relationship to each other. As a matter of fact, they are contrary beliefs. | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 1970 Registered: 08-2006 |
"It is not the responsibility of the power company to determine if a man needs a psych eval! Are you fucking kidding me. What fairy tale fucking world do you idiots live in?" I'm sure if this was your mother or grandfather or even you in your advanced years, you'd want some one to act instead of just caring about thier own world. Or perhaps you feel this old guy should have done society a favor at the first signs of senilty and offed himself to save the utility company any work that required an extra five minutes of thier precious time? | ||
Sumas Member Username: Sumas Post Number: 631 Registered: 01-2008 |
I agree with downtown_lady, I see little compassion on this thread. I was very happy to hear that Bay City Electric Power has suspended use of limiters. Ltori... thanks for sharing the press release. Policies that result in tragedies deserve to be reviewed. Many elders no longer have a support network. My Mom is 89 and has friends much older. She checks on these friends regularly some of which are becoming senile. We get dispatched often to check on her friends if they don't answer the phone etc. Many seniors just don't have that support network and suffer alone. This man was a veteran but is being abused post mortem. Shameful. | ||
Carolcb Member Username: Carolcb Post Number: 2194 Registered: 11-2006 |
My mother is 93 - born in 1916 in case anyone needs the math, and still lives alone in a little apartment about 45 miles from my home. But she does have lots of friends who check on her every day. They even leave their doors unlocked so that someone can come right in if there is a problem. However, I can tell you that someone who is 93 really does have a problem with dealing with companies who have the "push button" call centers to contact them. There is no way my mom can do that. And to think that she might have a heating bill of $300 or $400 - she cannot imagine that either. She was sick and in the hospital a couple of years ago and the bills were thousands of dollars. I know that she feels now that if she gets sick again, she would "just rather die". Maybe that is how this poor man felt? How is he supposed to have that kind of money anyways? And - I would bet that the utility knew that he had lived in that house forever - probably records back to the 60's. Society has failed this man - face it. Someone or some thing should have intervened. You should not freeze to death in your home in 2009. This isn't the freaking Donner Party. | ||
Bobl Member Username: Bobl Post Number: 429 Registered: 07-2008 |
This breaks my heart. There must be a better way for us to respect our elders and veterans. I have no answer, but it seems there were a few choices that might have been available. One: Commitment to a nursing home at a cost of six thousand dollars a month to the State and U.S. Two: Subsidized heating bills for seniors. Three: More vigilant and caring neighbors and neighborhoods. Four: Status quo. I lean toward #2 and #3, although it is easier said than done. Any opinions? | ||
Downtown_lady Member Username: Downtown_lady Post Number: 517 Registered: 08-2008 |
Cheddar Bob, at least by your own admission in post 1664 you acknowledge that you bully people and pick on them -- at least you didn't dispute that. My sidenote was related, and just a brief sidenote, which I didn't expect anybody to "fawn over". I acknowledge that your calling someone out of what could be seen as hypocrisy is relevant to the issue, so I'll give you that, but I still don't see the value in harping on someone over and over and over again for something that they wrote three months ago. You do bully Ltorivia and you do bully Sean of Detroit, and I just get tired of seeing it. You admit that you bully people, and I just don't think there's any place for that in a dialogue among adults. Yes Gumby, I did read that thread that you're referring to regarding AIDS, so I understand exactly where Cheddar Bob's motivation is coming from. I did just acknowledge that Cheddar Bob pointing that out as hypocrisy is relevant, but I just think it is ridiculous to continue to harass people for months just because you disagree with their posts, no matter how outrageous their posts may be. I mean, when is enough truly enough? | ||
Jcole Member Username: Jcole Post Number: 5572 Registered: 04-2005 |
I agree, someone or something failed him, but it wasn't necessarily the power company. At his age, I'm guessing he received Social Security and is on Medicare. If he had any medical or mental disabilities, he should have been being monitored by Medicare/Medicaid. Where was the visiting nursing care or his case worker? If he was both mentally and physically healthy and didn't require aid, then he was able to pay his bills. Someone must have gone to the bank to get the cash that was attached to the bill on the table. Either he did or some kind of caretaker did. If it was a caretaker, why didn't they mail/take it to the utility? He had to have been getting food from somewhere. Did he get Meals on Wheels? If so, didn't they notice his windows were frozen and he didn't answer the door? Did someone do his shopping? He had no children, but that's not to say he didn't have neices or nephews who looked in on him. | ||
Pffft Member Username: Pffft Post Number: 1212 Registered: 12-2003 |
A shameful, sad way for any senior to be treated, and a WWII veteran to boot. I agree that the push button telephone options you have to maneuver with these utility companies are something the middle-aged find hard to keep up with, much less a gentleman born at the dawn of the 20th century. | ||
Downtown_lady Member Username: Downtown_lady Post Number: 519 Registered: 08-2008 |
quote: Just like my comment to Cheddar Bob wasn't directed to you, Gumby. | ||
Gumby Member Username: Gumby Post Number: 985 Registered: 11-2003 |
Cambrian, quote: The answer is, Of course I would, but to go after a utility company for not setting up a psych eval for a client is absolutely ridiculous. Are you trained to spot mental illness? Do you think the workers at the utility company are? Believe it or not they do not have access to our medical records so they don't know if we have a history of ilness. It is really hard to spot most mental illness, not everyone slobers all over themselves and flings crap at each other. Thats why most psychologists/psychiatrists go to school longer than the doctor who gets to cut you open and play with your organs. I am sick of you, Ltorivia and the oters putting words in our mouths. Like we are happy this guy died. Please point out where anyone expressed anything but sympathy for the guy. Cheddar_bob had every right to bring up the AIDS issue when Ltorivia started claiming that we showed no compassion towards others as he was pointing out her complete hypocrasy. I could see her point if all AIDS victims contracted HIV through promescuity but thats not the case she has no problem lumping the Ryan Whites of the world of people who deserve what they got. | ||
Bigb23 Member Username: Bigb23 Post Number: 3528 Registered: 11-2007 |
quote: Jcole - I have to disagree with you on this one. The state is broke and DHS caseworkers are swamped. They don't have the workers to take care of at risk kids, let alone the elderly. I took responsibility for a neighbor who was a WWII vet, when his children/grandchildren didn't. They lived locally and didn't bother with him until he died. Then they were on his home and belongings like locusts. Maybe a neighbor could get a few dollars knocked off their utility bill to be responsible for on time payments for an elderly persons account. | ||
Sstashmoo Member Username: Sstashmoo Post Number: 3201 Registered: 02-2007 |
Quote: "No, I won't. I can't stand stupid people and/or hipocrites and I pick on them because they deserve it." When will you people learn? Troll is here to piss you off, then when you react, he can then copy and paste it over to the "other" forum and giggle like a schoolgirl. Seriously, ignore him. Cheddar with statements like the above, you're getting loads of laughs right here, trust me. I'm embarrassed for you, honestly. Notice how rarely anyone responds to your posts? Do the math. | ||
Jcole Member Username: Jcole Post Number: 5574 Registered: 04-2005 |
quote: I know that, but by the same token, I'm sure the city of Bay City has laid off a lot of workers, and don't have the capacity to check on every consumer either. My point was, who is really responsible? People want smaller government, but they want the government to be responsible so they don't have to be. It's not an easy task to figure out who failed here. If he was a veteran, should he have been taken care of by the VA? He was a senior citizen. Was the responsiblity on Social Security? Should a neighbor have noticed the frozen windows? Should a mailman have reported it? There is no easy answer, but everyone wants to make it the fault of the City Manager, who probably didn't have any idea that there was a regulator on his line, or the city, who is responsible for services to over 36, 000 residents. | ||
Sumas Member Username: Sumas Post Number: 633 Registered: 01-2008 |
A friend in her eighties got a late fee notice. She had paid on time and disputed the late fee. She simply could not negotiate the companies voice mail. We called for her and turned it over when, 10 minutes later, we got a real person. Even after the call, it took two months to correct the bill. We keep laughing and saying we need younger friends but if truth is told we enjoy our interaction with seniors. For skeptics, no, we don't figure into their wills. Everyone should adopt a senior who has no support network. It is rewarding. My favorite was Norm. He died at 93. Such a charming man. We would share coffee and conversation over a shared fence every morning. He loved my garden and I loved his wisdom. He dressed everyday as if he was going to work. A jacket, tie, dress shirt. He cleaned the alley behind the house religiously every week. He never married. He took care of aging parents instead. Relatives (distant)did take advantage of him but that was not my business. I miss him lots. Adopt a senior!!!! |
