  Raptor56 Member Username: Raptor56 Post Number: 741 Registered: 05-2007 |
I've been to a number of Wal-farts in various parts of the country over the past few years. They all seem to have a common denominator: slow and uncaring employees. Slow and uncaring customers. I don't mind paying an extra few cents at another establishemnt, just so I can avoid the frustration involved when dealing with wal-mart. | ||
Jman Member Username: Jman Post Number: 229 Registered: 10-2006 |
Yep, Livonia sucks. Just the other day I was trying to take a nap (I'm retired) during the big snowfall but the trucks plowing the snow kept waking me up. I can't sleep in one day a week because the garbage truck wakes me up and as soon as I get back to sleep (in my little tract house that looks the same as my neighbors)the recyclables truck shows up. Can you believe it? We have to recycle. I won't mention the appliance/furniture truck that come by every week because I am usually up by then. It's worse in the summer when the tree chipper truck shows up for limbs and brush that my neighbors feel they have to clean up from their yards. A few months ago my neighbor had a small fire and the fire department didn't even bother to show up until 4 or 5 minutes after he called. We have way to many police. They are on the main streets and in the neighborhoods patrolling. What's up with that? My tax dollars going to waste. I have lived here a lot longer than Choquant but I agree with him on the fact that we have no museums. Restaurants are bad too. Just the other day I was at Flemings Steakhouse and my porterhouse that I ordered rare came out almost medium rare. I should have gone to Mitchell's Seafood but that's just another rotten place. I can't get to Lafayette very often anymore so I have to settle with the Senate. I have noticed though that when Choquant left the residents of Livonia don't seem as bad. | ||
Gnome Member Username: Gnome Post Number: 2318 Registered: 08-2007 |
Choquant ... you got schooled. How's it feel? DetroitBred, see that is an expert lesson in how to tell someone to get bent. Jman, priceless. | ||
Bearinabox Member Username: Bearinabox Post Number: 1199 Registered: 04-2006 |
I don't understand why we have this argument on here so often. It boils down to two fundamentally different sets of priorities. It's pointless to discuss them, because they barely even overlap. It's like a race driver telling a construction worker his pickup sucks because it doesn't go fast enough, and the construction worker saying the race car sucks because there's no room for two-by-fours in the back. | ||
Jman Member Username: Jman Post Number: 230 Registered: 10-2006 |
Thanks, Gnome. Livonia is not everyone's cup of tea but the part that got me was "the residents". People are good and bad wherever you go. Bearinabox, Amen. | ||
Detroitchef Member Username: Detroitchef Post Number: 85 Registered: 09-2008 |
The suckiest thing about Walmart's is the amount of trade they do in Chinese made products. Not only do they pull customers out of mom-and-pop stores in the community they open up in, but by buying and selling chinese made crap, they let American industry die also. Seriously, google 'Walmart vs Huffy Bikes' and see what they did to them. Huffy used to be the #1 maker of bikes in the us, WalMArt was the #1 seller. They forced Huffy to sell them the cheaper end of the range, and Huffy couldn't keep up with WM's competitors orders for the higher priced bikes. The result, Walmart is still the #1 seller of bikes but Huffy is the #3 producer, and now imports the majority of their bikes from Chinese factories, having had to close the US factories. | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 4378 Registered: 02-2005 |
This is one of the weirdest threads ever. Is this an indictment with Walmart and Livonia as co-defendants? Are they one and the same? Why is one being conflated with the other? Jman, your defense is not bad, but the question is, did you have to go to Livonia to get your snow plowed and to get adequate police and fire protection? In other words, what is special about Livonia, such that, when you compare it to other places that plow snow and pick up garbage that happen to be more interesting, diverse, or stimulating places, it wouldn't "suck" in comparison? I'd like to think that the people living there (or anywhere) aren't averse to diversity, brain stimulation, or beauty, but in order for me to believe that we need to know why Livonia is better than other safe places with adequate services. With a more fleshed-out apologetic, people might be more respectful and might stop saying that it sucks. | ||
Jman Member Username: Jman Post Number: 231 Registered: 10-2006 |
Mackinaw, I went to Livonia for an adequate educational system for my children. Nowhere did I say that Livonia was better than other safe places with adequate services. I also didn't say that Livonia was special. Livonia is what it is, some good some bad. It just happens to be the largest target on the Detroityes board. "With a more fleshed-out apologetic, people might be more respectful and might stop saying it sucks". On this board? You're kidding,right? | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 4380 Registered: 02-2005 |
Yeah I know Jman, I'm doubtful about that too. Again, though, good public schools can also be found elsewhere. The place certainly doesn't "suck" in terms of giving its residents a good and comfortable life and a fair amount of services. I guess what everyone is driving at is why a place that is so bland thrives. [And this isn't an indictment of Livonia per se...there are several communities just like it in metro Detroit and in every metro area]. While I'd be interested in hearing an answer, I think this is simply a matter of irreconciliable differences among people: some people are willing to seek out and pay whatever they need to pay for places with certain cultural, recreational, social, or aesthetic amenities above and beyond all the basics. Some people prioritize finding a certain type of urban or suburban existence. The others [to me, those who buy in Warren or Sterling Heights or Livonia] place the ratio of costs to services first and foremost. They treat choosing where to live like choosing which economy car to buy. I reject that, because our environment is so key to our existence: who we are and who we and our families become...but I understand that many don't care. I think this fundamentally explains the boom of mass-produced suburbia. | ||
Jman Member Username: Jman Post Number: 232 Registered: 10-2006 |
What I care about most in the world is my family. Everything else is secondary. I chose the community that had the best school system that I could afford at that time. If you have other priorities then far be it from me to criticize your way of life or the city in which you reside. For you to think that everyone who lives in a community such as Livonia cares nothing about cultural, recreational, social, or aesthetic amenities is rather arrogant. We are not bound by our city borders. I allow you to choose your lifestyle without judging and I would like the same in return. (Message edited by Jman on February 05, 2009) | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 4382 Registered: 02-2005 |
Last idea before I drop the case: diversity and variety and exposure are good for kids. Nonetheless, I know exactly what you're saying coming from a family where family was the constant priority, and from parents that said the same thing. I am just fascinated by the variety of thought processes that are out there. There's nothing strange about yours. It's not a personal judgment, but rather an ongoing attempt of mine to shake up the status quo and force perceptions to shift. I like to think about ways that we can continue to keep our priorities where they ought to be, as yours are, but to have, simply put, a greater society. My musings and stirring of the pot will stop here. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 6115 Registered: 08-2004 |
Jman, they like picking on Livonia because it opted out of SMART, has too many Walmarts, and because Trainman is from there. I'm just glad that the folks here in Macomb County passed the SMART renewal and that David Jaye and Gil DiNello are political toast... and that we don't have an outspoken county leader like L. Brooks... keeps some of the insults at bay... (barely)...  | ||
Reddog289 Member Username: Reddog289 Post Number: 895 Registered: 08-2007 |
Having spent almost 14 yrs of my life working in Livonia, I myself have no bad feelings toward the place. I have seen that city change like Detroit has changed in my 40 years.I have never had a problem in that city and to think of it only one problem in Detroit that I can think of.But with the state of the City of Detroit its schools, services ETC. AINOVIL might be my pick of the two to live in. This also brings up a question. "Why would you build a bussiness in a city where people are leaving?". Not saying that everyone wants to live in Livonia,Canton, Macomb Twp.People from Detroit have been going to the corner of 7& Middlebelt for decades as well as Plymouth & Middlebelt also.If ya wanna go to Sears, WalMart , Meijer your gonna go to the burbs. And if you live on the Westside you have all in LIVONIA.I pretty much have to leave my burb to shop also so I just go with it. | ||
Jackpot Member Username: Jackpot Post Number: 40 Registered: 02-2008 |
i'm pretty sure detroitbred is president and/or spokesperson of the livonia tourist bureau! | ||
Softailrider Member Username: Softailrider Post Number: 270 Registered: 02-2007 |
My in-laws lived in Livonia for over 40 years before they died. It seemed like a fine place to live , there's some nicer housing around there somewhere. It's on a par with Westland, Garden City, Canton ect. There's good places to eat and shop, taxes were high but city services were very good. I didn't think it was a bad place to live at all. | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 3733 Registered: 04-2006 |
quote: It's also the whitest city in America. | ||
Detroitbred Member Username: Detroitbred Post Number: 237 Registered: 06-2008 |
Thanks Jman, you are obviously better at this than I am. Choquant, I don't know of any cities the size of Livonia that has a museum, do you? And, Gistok, it only has one Wal-Mart ( the 2nd one is just a rumor yet ). I don't think 2 is necessary at all. And I don't think it is still the whitest city in America anymore. Mackinaw, I never said the Livonia is better than anywhere else, I am simply sick and tired of the city being bashed ( much of it having to do with that stupid Smart bus crap ), there are plenty of good people there too. It is not Shangrila, it is not perfect...it is a good place to live, raise your kids and send them to school, good city services, good senior housing, good shopping, good eating.....I could go on but I should stop before someone accuses me of being the mayor. | ||
Jtf1972 Member Username: Jtf1972 Post Number: 120 Registered: 08-2008 |
"Livonia sucks." Pfft! Livonia is the greatest city since Troy, possibly even eclipsing the profound beauty of that once great metropolis. God Himself is jealous of the residents of this suburban mecca! Yet He shall not pass judgment on its greatness, but bask in the warmth that is Livonia. Livonia! | ||
Detroitbred Member Username: Detroitbred Post Number: 238 Registered: 06-2008 |
Whatever | ||
Detroitchef Member Username: Detroitchef Post Number: 88 Registered: 09-2008 |
Whitest city in America? I am sure Possum Creek, KY is whiter. | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 3737 Registered: 04-2006 |
>I am sure Possum Creek, KY is whiter. My bad, it is the whitest city with more than 10 people. | ||
Hpgrmln Member Username: Hpgrmln Post Number: 655 Registered: 06-2007 |
The people hating on Livonia generally do not like suburbia in general. Livonia is pure suburbia. I believe its normal for people to be unable to comprehend how people of other lifestyles can live the way they do. I myself could never adapt to big city life. Chicago is fun to visit. After a few days, I just want to go back to the 'burbs. I couldn't stand to live in an apartment, with people above and below me. Im more content in a single family home on a street with sidewalks and less rowdiness from nightclubs all night long. I like not having to hear police sirens constantly, or lots of houses with bars or chain link fences. To me, thats an indication of a city that isnt stepping up to take care of its citizens. Yes, suburbia is dull. But its what I'm used to. As for that "perception of safety", yes. Kids don't have to walk past gangs or drug pushers in Livonia when walking home from school. The people are being served by decent services, such as emergency response time and schools that aren't labeled "dropout factories". Those kinds of things are a higher priority to a lot of people than casino access and "hipness." Different people, different priorities. I would have no problem living there.At least I'd know my tax money is serving me. | ||
56packman Member Username: 56packman Post Number: 2427 Registered: 12-2005 |
Try this little test sometime if you have to: Call Detroit police to send a car out to deal with a situation (a real situation, not a test/prank) and call the Livonia police and see which city sucks. | ||
Gnome Member Username: Gnome Post Number: 2325 Registered: 08-2007 |
Explain this to me, Detroit was once known as the city with the most single family homes. Meaning the vast majority of residences in The D comprise a frontyard, backyard, house and garage. Not all residences, but most. There are very few areas in the City that have a concentration of multi-story buildings. With newish places like Harbortown or the Riverfront Apts, the only real urban areas are a small strip across from Indian Village, the south end of Palmer Park and maybe Lafayette park/Towers. Otherwise, any comparison of City to Suburb laughable. You are comparing neighborhoods. Size of lawns and their level of upkeep. I don't see how anyone can see Detroit as an urban City in the sense of Chicago, NY, Toronto or San Fransisco. Can all you Livonia haters explain to me the structural reason you think of Detroit as urban and Livonia as suburban? Aren't you comparing neighborhood lawns? I keep on hearing this same slam over and again that Livonia sucks, but I don't understand why. Because it doesn't have a museum? Who supports the DIA? The citizens of Detroit or a collection of suburbanites? Opera? Same deal. Zoo? yep. In fact, unless I'm blind, outside of downtown the number of buildings over three stories are few and far between. There is just one long expanse of single family homes that stretch to the horizon in all directions. Is there a different reality out there? Northwest Detroit melds seemlessly into Redford and Southfield with nary a difference ... save the bars on the windows. Same goes for the Alter Road/ Mack Ave divide. Bars on windows on one side of the street and not on the other. Can anyone tell me that one side is urban and the other suburban? One side is dumpy and the other isn't. They share the same structural makeup of frontyard, backyard and house. If you ever want a hoot pick up a copy of an Observer or Eccentric. They list the crime reports for BirmingDale Shores. A lot of cat-in-tree reports, detroit shoplifters and the occassional beheading; but never are there bumsicle runs and drive-bys involve toiletpaper. Just reports of people who like to go home and not be surprised to find it there when they return. For all you hardbitten urban dwellers that throw out the "suckage" tag, what is it about your front lawn makes it suck-free? | ||
Miss_d_meanor Member Username: Miss_d_meanor Post Number: 1 Registered: 02-2009 |
Perhaps the criticism against Livonia is due to the fact that it is in many ways typical of the ubiquitous urban sprawl subdivisions that seem to spring up from nothing. The lack of a downtown gives it the feeling of being manufactured solely by urban planners, whereas such cities as Plymouth, Northville have a city center that gives them a more genuine small town feel. No wonder so many people would against a Walmart that will only add to that perception, valid or not. The lack of a downtown goes a long way in people perceptions of a city, I think. That said, the schools are fine, it's a quiet nice community and as other have said no one forbidden to leave their city borders to find culture, so honestly who cares? | ||
W_chicago Member Username: W_chicago Post Number: 93 Registered: 01-2008 |
There is a huge difference between Livonia neighborhoods and ones in Detroit. Although Detroit neighborhoods are not generally as dense as those in Chicago, they are still far more dense than those in Livonia. Actually visit neighborhoods in Detroit and you will discover a city of, yes many single-family homes, but also out countless duplexes, triplexes, quadplexes, ect. There is also many more appartment buildings than one might think (although nothing on the level of Chicago). You will also find commercial "main streets" that were built to house neighborhood retail. Many times there would be housing on top of the retail (for the store owner's family for instance). The population density of Detroit is low for a large city. But the historic density was much higher, and after almost 50 years of de-population we see a pretty barren city overall. There are pockets of vibrancy. And those pockets certianly are growing. But the pace of progess is slow, especialy when taken in context of wider social and economic factors. Detroit, even historically, was never a well-planned city. From the early 1900's it was a sprawling city. But it is by no means as horribly planned as suburbs. Detroit can turn around, regain its density, and become a model for urbanism. Vibrant neighborhoods connected with transit, seperated by greenways, parks and nature-preserve (acheiving both green space and high density) The suburban lifestyle is not something we can simply "respect," for it is at the expense of other peoples lives. The car-dependent, consumer-driven, resource intensive nature of suburbs lend them to be unsustainble by very nature. We see wars waged to ensure the oil that drives this lifestyle. Continuing the suburban way of life is road to self-destruction, as well as the destruction of everyone else. | ||
Bearinabox Member Username: Bearinabox Post Number: 1209 Registered: 04-2006 |
quote:Height of the buildings has nothing to do with anything. Troy has lots of tall buildings, Hamtramck has almost none. Are you suggesting that Troy is higher-density or more walkable than Hamtramck? Tall buildings don't make an area urban. quote:It's much less apparent when you're right on the border, because you're comparing the least urban parts of the city with the most urban parts of suburbia. By the time you get to Livonia, though, there is a clear difference in terms of how the neighborhoods are laid out and how the commercial strips are designed, which affects how easy it is to get around without a car. The further apart everything is, the harder it is to walk. Not saying there's anything wrong with that, if it's what you prefer, but there is a clear difference there. | ||
Reddog289 Member Username: Reddog289 Post Number: 910 Registered: 08-2007 |
While I was on my way to and from the City of Madison Heights,I noticed that while driving down the 96 service drive that the houses in Redford look alot like the ones in alot of parts of NW Detroit as do the houses on the eastern edge of Livonia.My point is that Livonia isn't some new deal it did grow up as Detroit started to die, and eventhough I do not live there and most likely will never. I myself think alot of people are wishing that the City of Detroit was run like Livonia.I used to work at a print shop that did the City of Livonias printing.It was mostly letterheads yet we would do things for Livonias Greenmead Historical Village.Also stuff for the Livonia Symphony.Of the 3 cities I have had addresses in they all have their own historical museums.The burbs are not the cultural wasteland that some might think. I myself can see that and I am not that cultured myself. | ||
Gnome Member Username: Gnome Post Number: 2326 Registered: 08-2007 |
HamTragedy, I should have said multi-storied residential. The tall buildings in Troy are all office buildings. Thanks for pointing out my error. WChicago, the apt over the store is getting re-invented as work/live spaces in of all places as Birmingham, Royal Oak and - shocking- Brighton and Utica. Duplexes abound in GPP. Detroit has no lock on the concept, but if it did, do a series of Dupli qualify a place as urban? Do the Crosswinds townhouse developments qualify? If so, Utica might have to re-evaluate it's self-image. Were you suggesting we discuss the historical density of Detroit to that current-day Livonia? Any particular historic period? 1834 perchance? 1950? What might such a comparative discussion reveal? Detroit was over-crowded; baby bombed families wanted to live in new, roomy places. They moved. To extrapolate that into some sort of demonic plan to enslave the world is a little extreme. Do you truly believe the City Fathers of Warren, Wyandotte or Livonia hatched the plan to destroy the planet with the Iraq War 50 years ago? I looked at a map and the edge of Livonia is only two miles from Detroit, so while I'm sure Livonia is guilty of a lot of things, the destruction of western civilization might overstate things. Don't ya think? But since you seem impassioned with that idea, I'll tell you what, how about if I help you out by letting you get rid of your mom's car. Go get her title and meet me at the Kern Clock about 3 today. You can give me her car and the title, and I'll take care of it for you. She won't mind giving it up, because you know what's best, right? 3 pm, ok? And Miss-d-Meanor, welcome and what a great post. You've hit the nail on the head. The problem with Livonia is the lack of a downtown. A downtown gives a town a historic and cultural center, and as you said, that makes places like Plymouth, Birmingham, Royal Oak high on the quaint scale. Towns without a city center like Novi and Warren go so far as to try and manufacture one. Can't say I know how effective their efforts have been. From the sound of this Board there is a lot of discontentment with our car designed culture. The entire drive-through, drive-up and drop off life style. Dang you're right, a Convenience store is convenient. Drive up get my lotto, liquor and choreboy for my crack pipe and scoot on. Much easier than having to park around the corner, down the block, and walk to the corner store. crime report of Royal Oak: http://www.hometownlife.com/ar ticle/20090207/NEWS18/90207030 1 Fail a class at Livonia High School and your Parking Pass is taken away http://www.hometownlife.com/ar ticle/20090205/NEWS10/90205073 0/1027 Redford Crime Report http://www.hometownlife.com/ap ps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090 205/NEWS16/902050665 | ||
Rooms222 Member Username: Rooms222 Post Number: 168 Registered: 04-2005 |
Thanks for the link to the Redford Crime Report. Redford has been going through a lot of changes the last few years........ The second WalMart was discussed in the Freep a couple months ago. I think it is designed to draw from not only Northern Livonia and Redford, but from Western Southfield as well as especially Farmington and Farmington Hills. If you look at Supercenters, there is the 8-mile/275 Meijer, the Tel-12 Meijer, the 8-mile/Telegraph Super Kmart, The South Livonia Meijer and Walmart, and the Commerce Township Super Walmarts and Meijers. There is a huge hole in Farmington Hills/Farmington and the surrounding areas where there is no Supercenter type store to shop. Shopping trends continue to move towards saving time by going to a Supercenter (one of the changes in habits that seems to incite some of the angst/anger in this thread). I think Walmart has found that for some reason (lack of a site, expense, zoning) there is not a reasonable site in Farmington/Farmington Hills). As someone who has lived in Redford and then Farmington, the lack of desired retail has led to a different phenomenon. The GO WEST phenomenon. When I first moved to Redford a decade ago, many shoppers from Detroit would come to the Krogers and independent stores in Redford to shop, and many Redford shoppers would go to Livonia. Livonia shoppers would go to Novi and Western Livonia to shop. As time passed, the stores in Redford closed and the Meijers and Walmart opened up on Middlebelt. Then more and more white shoppers shopped in only Novi, even those from Redford. If this Walmart succeeds, it will keep people closer to home. Otherwise, Farmington and Livonia will be spending their cash in Commerce Township, perpetuating the Go West phenomenon. |
