Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup
Post Number: 5295 Registered: 06-2004
| Posted on Thursday, February 19, 2009 - 7:20 pm: | |
defending autoworkers and the companies for providing benefits http://www.youtube.com/watch?v =a-nLS6FJtSM |
Bobl Member Username: Bobl
Post Number: 533 Registered: 07-2008
| Posted on Thursday, February 19, 2009 - 7:27 pm: | |
Thank you, mayor. Fair trade vs "free trade" is the discussion we need. |
Sstashmoo Member Username: Sstashmoo
Post Number: 3353 Registered: 02-2007
| Posted on Thursday, February 19, 2009 - 7:52 pm: | |
My kinda guy, answers questions he wasn't even asked. |
Gene Member Username: Gene
Post Number: 195 Registered: 10-2006
| Posted on Thursday, February 19, 2009 - 8:18 pm: | |
10.6% of Michigan out of work, again the highest in the nation. Thank you UAW. The Mayor is a nut job. |
Sumas Member Username: Sumas
Post Number: 751 Registered: 01-2008
| Posted on Thursday, February 19, 2009 - 9:02 pm: | |
I guess i am a nut job too. I have never been union but as I grew up it was the union that helped my folks live a nice middle class life and provide for me and my siblings. He showed passion and caring in what he wanted to say. He had an agenda which did not follow the dumb sound bites of the interviewer. I give him kudos! |
Mopardan Member Username: Mopardan
Post Number: 149 Registered: 11-2008
| Posted on Thursday, February 19, 2009 - 9:29 pm: | |
LOL It's about time someone grew a pair & told it like it is. Definitely a double standard in this country where white collar & blue collar is concerned. I'd love to see him get in Hannity's or Beck's face...they'd turn tail & run. BobL, you nailed it perfectly where trade is concerned. If we practiced Fair Trade, you can bet the EU & Asians would be squealing like stuck pigs. |
Gplimpton Member Username: Gplimpton
Post Number: 300 Registered: 05-2007
| Posted on Thursday, February 19, 2009 - 9:47 pm: | |
I agree that the banks have been held to a different standard to the autos, and that there ought to be more cuts at the top, but that doesn't mean the UAW shouldn't give up things like lifetime healthcare and benefits unheard of other industries. |
Otter Member Username: Otter
Post Number: 612 Registered: 12-2007
| Posted on Thursday, February 19, 2009 - 9:58 pm: | |
Good for the mayor for being honest. I thought Glenn Greenwald had a good commentary on it. http://www.salon.com/opinion/g reenwald/2009/02/19/bernero/in dex.html O. |
Mama_jackson Member Username: Mama_jackson
Post Number: 489 Registered: 06-2006
| Posted on Thursday, February 19, 2009 - 11:02 pm: | |
Gplimpton, kinda late in the game to ask a retiree to give up their benefits, isn't it? It's different if you know when you start your career you won't have life time insurance benefits when you retire, you plan, you save for the "golden years". And it would be different if there was a national health care program available, but there isn't until you're low income. Glad to see the Mayor of the City of Lansing speak up and out! There needs to be a balance with consideration for the working people of America. I have seen the mayor before and he impressed me then. I think he was interviewed on CNN. He knows what is going on in this country and he isn't afraid to call the republicians out on it. City of Lansing was hit just as hard as Flint and Detroit. GOOD FOR HIM AND US LITTLE PEOPLE. We simply cannot sustain our country without an industrial base. We need to keep those skills here-and we need to FIX the trade imbalance with China. NOW. Not everyone in America is a candidate for a four year university. Do the republicans mean to imply that the person who doesn't go to college shouldn't be a part of the middle class? |
Firstandten Member Username: Firstandten
Post Number: 693 Registered: 05-2006
| Posted on Friday, February 20, 2009 - 4:08 am: | |
I think the good mayor would make a good candidate for gov next election |
Gene Member Username: Gene
Post Number: 196 Registered: 10-2006
| Posted on Friday, February 20, 2009 - 5:59 am: | |
Quote: "Not everyone in America is a candidate for a four year university. Do the republicans mean to imply that the person who doesn't go to college shouldn't be a part of the middle class?" In Plato's Republic we are instructed that the origin of the state lies in that "natural" inequality of humanity that is embodied in the division of labour. Good read for you Libs. This thread should be renamed I hate Fox News. (Message edited by gene on February 20, 2009) |
East_detroit Member Username: East_detroit
Post Number: 1963 Registered: 11-2003
| Posted on Friday, February 20, 2009 - 6:39 am: | |
The highest caste is allowed to develop naturally while it matures in its "decanting bottle". |
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan
Post Number: 4153 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Friday, February 20, 2009 - 6:44 am: | |
Gene, you are awfully miserable, here. Why do you stay? |
Gene Member Username: Gene
Post Number: 197 Registered: 10-2006
| Posted on Friday, February 20, 2009 - 6:51 am: | |
Its not being miserable when one presents a point of view of reality that is different than yours. Have a nice day |
Lowell Moderator Username: Lowell
Post Number: 2219 Registered: 09-2003
| Posted on Friday, February 20, 2009 - 9:20 am: | |
Agree Firstandten, he is already my candidate to follow Granholm. While Lt. Gov. Cherry is lined up for that and a good person, Virg Bernero is a more energetic and forceful personality. He is intelligent, a terrific extemporaneous speaker and is on the side of average people. I could see him sweeping the critical swing region of Macomb County big time. |
Mopardan Member Username: Mopardan
Post Number: 152 Registered: 11-2008
| Posted on Friday, February 20, 2009 - 9:50 am: | |
Wow, so if you disagree with Fox News, then you're a "Lib"...whatever THAT means. Let's say a REAL plumber manages to operate a business wherein he achieves middle class status; he doesn't deserve so because he went to a trade school? Geez, so much for ambition & motivation. The land of opportunity is reserved only for a few college grads. You have to love that reasoning. |
_sj_ Member Username: _sj_
Post Number: 1685 Registered: 12-2003
| Posted on Friday, February 20, 2009 - 12:56 pm: | |
quote:Definitely a double standard in this country where white collar & blue collar is concerned It will always be there, because Americans like to feel special. Blue collar workers like to feel that no one works harder. White collar workers feel that they can do the work of a blue collar worker and more than likely some did during their lifetime so that doesn't help. And they all feel they can't be replaced and they all feel the work harder than the pay they deserve. (Message edited by _sj_ on February 20, 2009) |
_sj_ Member Username: _sj_
Post Number: 1686 Registered: 12-2003
| Posted on Friday, February 20, 2009 - 1:06 pm: | |
quote: And it would be different if there was a national health care program available, but there isn't until you're low income. Or if you are lucky enough to employed by the Federal Government. National Health Care would more than likely cost more than what the UAW members pay now. I would love to see Gettlefinger try and push a $100-200 premium to all per paycheck. It would be a fun meeting. |
East_detroit Member Username: East_detroit
Post Number: 1964 Registered: 11-2003
| Posted on Friday, February 20, 2009 - 1:11 pm: | |
quote:It will always be there, because Americans like to feel special. Does that include you?
quote:National Health Care would more than likely cost more than what the UAW members pay now. What do they pay now? |
Detroitrise Member Username: Detroitrise
Post Number: 3803 Registered: 09-2007
| Posted on Friday, February 20, 2009 - 1:25 pm: | |
quote:It will always be there, because Americans like to feel special. As far as I'm concerned, Americans are very special. How do you think we got into the mess we're in now? |
Sstashmoo Member Username: Sstashmoo
Post Number: 3358 Registered: 02-2007
| Posted on Friday, February 20, 2009 - 1:38 pm: | |
This Mayor for a higher up government role? While I agree with his message to a point, he came across as a enraged confused lunatic. "He took offense" to a question he wasn't even asked. He repeatedly answered questions in a hostile manner he wasn't asked. The anchor said "there must be some communication problem". Haha SNL would have a ball with that guy. Sorry, but he was an embarrassment to the state. |
Atwater Member Username: Atwater
Post Number: 382 Registered: 09-2007
| Posted on Friday, February 20, 2009 - 2:09 pm: | |
quote:Not everyone in America is a candidate for a four year university. Do the republicans mean to imply that the person who doesn't go to college shouldn't be a part of the middle class? Mama_jackson, in order for there to be a "middle class", by definition, there must be a lower and an upper; what people do you think should be in the "lower class"? I'm asking because whenever I hear people espouse the idea that everyone should at least be middle class, I wonder how such a thing could even be possible, and your remark was of a similar nature. |
Brownfieldguy Member Username: Brownfieldguy
Post Number: 35 Registered: 02-2009
| Posted on Friday, February 20, 2009 - 6:43 pm: | |
Ug. Usually I read through the post before I make a comment, but Gene..... your wrong. And it really has nothing to do with someone going to college or is college material. The mayor of Lansing is not a nut job. Just an angry public official who is seeing pretty much the destruction of a social fabric. The autos have benefitted immensely from the benefits that they had received in contract negotiations. Hell, many of the items that they received in those negotiations may have been wrong to agree to, but the management of the organizations did so. What's clear to me is that the political types in DC and the quote "Wall Street Types" have no vested interest in helping anyone but their own. Its arrogance, elitism, and this stupidly misinformed idea that pushing paper and managing money - money that produces nothing but more paper... is somehow of more value than the ingenuity and intelligence associated with making something. Forget the autos for a moment. The larger fact is that all of America is being squeezed by these so called leaders and people of influence who are willing to sacrifice so much of this country for their own short term gain. Yep, a great big rebalancing of America is going on and some of it is needed. But Geno... we need more men and women who are willing to stand up and say no to this idea that the civilized world needs to complete with third world labor, their poor and inhumane treatment of their population, and the willingness to destroy their environment. |
Glowblue Member Username: Glowblue
Post Number: 169 Registered: 09-2008
| Posted on Friday, February 20, 2009 - 6:51 pm: | |
quote:Or if you are lucky enough to employed by the Federal Government. National Health Care would more than likely cost more than what the UAW members pay now. I would love to see Gettlefinger try and push a $100-200 premium to all per paycheck. It would be a fun meeting. Every single country with universal healthcare has lower per-capita costs for healthcare than the United States, and most have a far higher quality of medical care than the US. Cuba's health care is basically as good as the USA's, while they spend only 3.5% per capita as we do. |
Gnome Member Username: Gnome
Post Number: 2395 Registered: 08-2007
| Posted on Friday, February 20, 2009 - 7:03 pm: | |
For anyone who hasn't had the pleasure of dealing with Virg ... that is how he talks about everything. Parking rates. Scrambled eggs. Lawn care. Eveything. We are all cheering this guy becuase he slapped around that frat-boy-fuck-job, but I'm telling you having a give and take conversation with Virg is impossible. If you hated Engler for being a bully. You ain't seen nothing yet. |
Brownfieldguy Member Username: Brownfieldguy
Post Number: 37 Registered: 02-2009
| Posted on Friday, February 20, 2009 - 7:27 pm: | |
Gnome, interesting insight. If true, the Mayor needs to know when to turn it off. I like the way you describe the news guy. |
Thames Member Username: Thames
Post Number: 394 Registered: 02-2007
| Posted on Friday, February 20, 2009 - 7:28 pm: | |
We moved to the States from Canada. When we lived in Canada we paid Canadian taxes and had OHIP (Ontario Health Insurance Plan). Things may have changed, but at the time, OHIP did not cover optical, dental or prescriptions. When we moved to the States we did not have employer sponsored health insurance so we had to buy our own health insurance and pay US taxes. Even though we paid for our health insurance privately, we saved several thousands of dollars a year by moving over here. It's been a while, maybe things have changed. |
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup
Post Number: 5308 Registered: 06-2004
| Posted on Friday, February 20, 2009 - 8:08 pm: | |
this is a respectable give and take http://www.youtube.com/watch?v =g5yp6TdeS8Y |
Angry_dad Member Username: Angry_dad
Post Number: 306 Registered: 02-2006
| Posted on Friday, February 20, 2009 - 8:11 pm: | |
What says the most is that "journalist" from Fox quoted the New York Post. New York Post numbers are wrong. But that didn't stop him. |
_sj_ Member Username: _sj_
Post Number: 1687 Registered: 12-2003
| Posted on Friday, February 20, 2009 - 8:30 pm: | |
quote:Every single country with universal healthcare has lower per-capita costs for healthcare than the United States, and most have a far higher quality of medical care than the US. Cuba's health care is basically as good as the USA's, while they spend only 3.5% per capita as we do. And your point? It has nothing to do with the fact that National Health Care would not be cheap nor free. Especially to people who have become accustomed to cheap coverage. |
Bigb23 Member Username: Bigb23
Post Number: 3924 Registered: 11-2007
| Posted on Friday, February 20, 2009 - 8:43 pm: | |
quote: Especially to people who have become accustomed to cheap coverage. AAANNNNDDDD what planet are you from ? |
Angry_dad Member Username: Angry_dad
Post Number: 307 Registered: 02-2006
| Posted on Friday, February 20, 2009 - 8:53 pm: | |
Spend some time in an emergency room. I just did, had to have a finger stitched up. Not going to say that the waiting room was filled with people that shouldn't be there but there were some. There was also the attitude I saw in one "dad" about how he was going to sue the crap out of the guy who owned the dog that bit his kid. He seemed to be more concerned that Sam Bernstein had a good case than getting his kid healthy. You wonder what's wrong and it's not workers or how much they get paid. There's just so many of us that want to get the other guy no matter what. And none of us realize that at some time or another we are the "other guy". |
Glowblue Member Username: Glowblue
Post Number: 170 Registered: 09-2008
| Posted on Friday, February 20, 2009 - 9:57 pm: | |
quote:And your point? It has nothing to do with the fact that National Health Care would not be cheap nor free. Especially to people who have become accustomed to cheap coverage. Nobody says UHC will be free (except for the children and the desperately poor), since we all pay taxes. However, it will undoubtedly be much, much cheaper than the current situation. The French government, which provides healh care for all its citizens, spends less money per capita on health care than the United States government, which only provides health care for a fraction of its citizenry. |
Firstandten Member Username: Firstandten
Post Number: 694 Registered: 05-2006
| Posted on Saturday, February 21, 2009 - 12:07 am: | |
This Mayor for a higher up government role? While I agree with his message to a point, he came across as a enraged confused lunatic. "He took offense" to a question he wasn't even asked. He repeatedly answered questions in a hostile manner he wasn't asked. The anchor said "there must be some communication problem". Haha SNL would have a ball with that guy. Sorry, but he was an embarrassment to the state." quote "For anyone who hasn't had the pleasure of dealing with Virg ... that is how he talks about everything. Parking rates. Scrambled eggs. Lawn care." quote You know thats ok thou. I would still like for Virg to run in the Democratic primary for Gov and let him make a case and have the citizens of Michigan especially southeasterm Michigan make that determination. |
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan
Post Number: 4159 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Saturday, February 21, 2009 - 12:57 am: | |
He's my mayor, and he can be more than a handful, like a dog with a bone, but I'd easily rank the guy as one of the top mayors in the state as far as I'm concerned. His strengths definitely outweigh his faults. The way he always explains his forceful personality is that he was the youngest of five in a big Italian family, his dad an Italian immigrant and his mom a first generation American of Italian immigrants. BTW, for anyone that cares and for what it's worth, he was born and raised in Pontiac (though, he lived in the Waterford School District). Our city would be much worse off without him having been elected mayor. People seem to forget that while we're the state capital, were also very much a GM town, too. |
Firstandten Member Username: Firstandten
Post Number: 697 Registered: 05-2006
| Posted on Saturday, February 21, 2009 - 1:08 am: | |
Thanks Lmichigan I've heard your mayor a few times and I was impressed. You need to share him with the rest of the state. |
Gnome Member Username: Gnome
Post Number: 2396 Registered: 08-2007
| Posted on Saturday, February 21, 2009 - 6:09 am: | |
I remember thinking Monica Conyers was a little spitfire who'd shake things up downtown. silly me. First and ten, maybe you'll get your wish and Virg will feel the urge to merge onto the State scene. I'm confident the republicans can't wait. |
Angry_dad Member Username: Angry_dad
Post Number: 308 Registered: 02-2006
| Posted on Saturday, February 21, 2009 - 7:06 am: | |
This isn't a party issue. Both are beyond incompetent and neither has the best interest of the majority in mind. Prove the statements given by the Fox News anchor as fact. You and I both know the anchor was and is full of shit. Virg took him on for that. Too bad the gang mentality of the talking heads can't accept one of their own as flawed. Maybe he overreacted. In many eyes that's better than no reaction when an idiot with a camera spouts garbage. |
Gnome Member Username: Gnome
Post Number: 2397 Registered: 08-2007
| Posted on Saturday, February 21, 2009 - 7:52 am: | |
Dear Dad, Agreed that Virg did the right thing by slapping that punk around. Fine. But look at the piece again; you will notice that instead of refuting the bogus factoids presented by the interviewer, Virg flipped the script and ranted about Wall Street. Fine. It was a good rant. But it is a common practice among politicos to instead of answering a question, to throw in a connected, but tangential, subject. The Felon was a master at it and our new pal Virg is getting better all the time. In short, we all love Virg for taking on an uninformed blovitard, but how are you going to feel when he pulls the same gambit on a subject you oppose him on? Think Jeffery Fieger in a Robert Hall suit. |
Angry_dad Member Username: Angry_dad
Post Number: 309 Registered: 02-2006
| Posted on Saturday, February 21, 2009 - 10:26 am: | |
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/jour nal/02202009/watch.html How do you think I feel now considering what is in office now? I am so sick of Stabenow, Bush & Clinton style politics. I'll take a bit of Virg style crazieness instead of the corruption that is everywhere else. |
Barnesfoto Member Username: Barnesfoto
Post Number: 3561 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Saturday, February 21, 2009 - 10:15 pm: | |
I love how this overfed frat wank and other radical clerics of the sick cult try to paint Virg as some type of wild man, (If they want wild eyed rantings, they should have 4 or 5 photographers over for dinner) while they present stats from another NY based Murdoch propaganda mill as somehow credible. Perhaps to be "fair and balanced" they could also get some info from myspace.... http://profile.myspace.com/ind ex.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewpro file&friendid=351823318 |
Leannam1989 Member Username: Leannam1989
Post Number: 190 Registered: 06-2008
| Posted on Sunday, February 22, 2009 - 3:50 am: | |
I see his point. There is a double standard there. It's not fair. But I can see the point of those who want the union workers to cut their pay. But it's also not fair that those bank CEOs got $1 million bonuses. Wow. He went off. "Mr. Mayor, that wasn't my question." I appreciate the Mayor's stance. But He kind of makes himself sound like an idiot who can't listen to the question and answer is properly. |
Gnome Member Username: Gnome
Post Number: 2400 Registered: 08-2007
| Posted on Sunday, February 22, 2009 - 6:15 am: | |
I agree Barnes... Sure, that's what we need, more buggers from crazy-town running the place. I always say that when something is really messed up, "Time to bring in the Unbalanced!" Droolers are second best, but Unbalanced Folks are a damn sure fix to systemic political problems. Pathological liars are next on the list of fixers, but Unbalanced are best. Just back the truck up and dump off a whole load of Ranters and Screamers, a couple of Chest Pounders, with a smattering of Teeth Gnashers, That will fix everything. |
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan
Post Number: 4164 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Sunday, February 22, 2009 - 7:04 am: | |
And, in which of those groups do you fit, because you're a piece of work, no doubt. Jeeze, everything about you is utterly bitter negative. Who do you actually like, because we already know everything that you hate and despise, but you very rarely offer positive solutions to anything you speak of. (Message edited by lmichigan on February 22, 2009) |
Gnome Member Username: Gnome
Post Number: 2402 Registered: 08-2007
| Posted on Sunday, February 22, 2009 - 7:50 am: | |
I like you |
Gene Member Username: Gene
Post Number: 199 Registered: 10-2006
| Posted on Sunday, February 22, 2009 - 7:59 am: | |
What you all seem to miss is the point that cable news(both sides)plays to their audience by bringing these obscure nut jobs onto national TV, with one reason, ratings. Sorry the Mayor came off like one associated with a radical or extreme political cause. (crazy) He was used by Fox News and the reporter. |
Angry_dad Member Username: Angry_dad
Post Number: 310 Registered: 02-2006
| Posted on Sunday, February 22, 2009 - 9:11 am: | |
Was Virg used by Fox? Beyond a doubt. Was his reaction over the top? In some ways yes. But it sure looks like the over reaction isn't limited to him. Fox lied. Call them out. Fair and balanced? |
_sj_ Member Username: _sj_
Post Number: 1688 Registered: 12-2003
| Posted on Sunday, February 22, 2009 - 10:54 am: | |
quote: AAANNNNDDDD what planet are you from ? You know that place where some bitch about paying $11 or $22 a month.
quote:Nobody says UHC will be free (except for the children and the desperately poor), since we all pay taxes. However, it will undoubtedly be much, much cheaper than the current situation. The French government, which provides healh care for all its citizens, spends less money per capita on health care than the United States government, which only provides health care for a fraction of its citizenry. Can't argue that fact, but they pay for it. 20% of their gross salary goes to Health Care and then they may purchase additional insurance on top of that. The Self employed have to pay even more. I also think they have pay the entire bill and then they get re-reimbursed a percentage. Compare that 20% to the paltry sums some are paying now, will they still considered it an advantage. A $150 a month premium is a far cry form $11. |
Barnesfoto Member Username: Barnesfoto
Post Number: 3562 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Sunday, February 22, 2009 - 11:46 am: | |
"the Mayor came off like one associated with a radical or extreme political cause. (crazy)" Just keep telling yourself that. Obviously, you must live in one of those parts of the country where nobody has lost their jobs or homes, where berserk gunman never walk into public places and start firing, and where the downtown, if there is one, does not include people in ragged clothes who mumble to themselves. As for me, my parents, who lived frugally and squirreled away money for decades, have lost a good chunk of their retirement savings because they bought into the myth that the folks who ran Wall Street were trustworthy. The mayor of Lansing speaks the truth to may ears...I guess I'm crazy too. |
Gene Member Username: Gene
Post Number: 201 Registered: 10-2006
| Posted on Sunday, February 22, 2009 - 12:19 pm: | |
Quote: "Just keep telling yourself that. Obviously, you must live in one of those parts of the country where nobody has lost their jobs or homes, where berserk gunman never walk into public places and start firing, and where the downtown, if there is one, does not include people in ragged clothes who mumble to themselves." And what utopia do you live in? People have mumbled to themselves since man has been on this planet, bums, job and home loss is not something that has not happened before, or invented by Bush, man by nature is violent, and most people outside of unionized socialist states like Michigan, really don't care about UAW members high pay work rules or free money and benefits for life at the expense of the auto industry and to this country's manufacturing base. Finally we are Wall Street, were your parents bitching when their retirement savings were going up and up, I guess not, we all have lost money in this mess that we are all guilty of creating it by our greed. I don't think that you are crazy like the Mayor, how about brainwashed? |
Glowblue Member Username: Glowblue
Post Number: 173 Registered: 09-2008
| Posted on Sunday, February 22, 2009 - 1:48 pm: | |
quote:Can't argue that fact, but they pay for it. 20% of their gross salary goes to Health Care and then they may purchase additional insurance on top of that. The Self employed have to pay even more. I also think they have pay the entire bill and then they get re-reimbursed a percentage. Compare that 20% to the paltry sums some are paying now, will they still considered it an advantage. A $150 a month premium is a far cry form $11. If we copied France's healthcare system whole cloth, we could provide healthcare for everyone with the payroll taxes we already collect. So instead of an $11 premium, they'd pay a $0 premium. |
_sj_ Member Username: _sj_
Post Number: 1689 Registered: 12-2003
| Posted on Sunday, February 22, 2009 - 5:30 pm: | |
quote:If we copied France's healthcare system whole cloth, we could provide healthcare for everyone with the payroll taxes we already collect. So instead of an $11 premium, they'd pay a $0 premium. with what payroll taxes, those payroll taxes fund bankrupt programs already. GlowBlue, I am not arguing with you, just don't see how it is possible. |
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup
Post Number: 5322 Registered: 06-2004
| Posted on Sunday, February 22, 2009 - 6:39 pm: | |
It works by cutting out the insurance companies. The government doesn't have to turn a profit, it only has to break even. |
Barnesfoto Member Username: Barnesfoto
Post Number: 3563 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Sunday, February 22, 2009 - 11:05 pm: | |
"socialist states like Michigan" Thanks, I think this quote illustrates just who the nutjob is.. |