  Miss_d_meanor Member Username: Miss_d_meanor Post Number: 7 Registered: 02-2009 |
I'm sure we have all heard the statistic that half of Detroiters are illiterate. Do you think this is true? I grew up in Detroit and still have many friends that live in the city and I honestly find this statistic very hard to believe. Perhaps it's simply wishful thinking on my part but I absolutely refuse to believe that half of the population of Detroit is functionally illiterate. Is the statistic inaccurate or am I just naive? | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4158 Registered: 10-2003 |
I've always doubted the rates. The most recent number I've seen for Detroit is 47% illiteracy. I've seen Grand Rapids listed at 21%. These all seem extremely high, and it makes me wonder about how exactly they are measuring "illiteracy"? I'd be more than able to believe that there are many children far below grade level in reading in this country, but I'm not sure I can believe in even a 21% illiteracy rate in any English-speaking American city. Just anecdotally, much of my family still lives in Detroit and attend Detroit Public Schools. I don't know even one that can't read, not my older relatives, nor my same-age and younger cousins. | ||
Andylinn Member Username: Andylinn Post Number: 1090 Registered: 04-2006 |
You're spot on, Lmichigan. I believe that the illiteracy rates are based on a 7th grade level. Therefore (I think this is right) 50% of Detroiters read and write below a 7rh grade level. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4161 Registered: 10-2003 |
Ok, so that's how they measure "illiteracy." I was never aware of the criteria. | ||
Miss_d_meanor Member Username: Miss_d_meanor Post Number: 9 Registered: 02-2009 |
I was wondering that myself and from what I have read, illiteracy can be defined by inability fill out a job application or other simply forms, now even a 4th grader could fill out a simply job application. On the other hand I have also heard the 7th grade level used as well. I'm glad to hear I'm not the only one who finds this statistic suspicious but I must admit my opinion just like yours Lmichigan, stems from the fact that I know many people from Detroit and they certainly all know how to read (now whether they actually read anything is another story.) I've been a huge fan of Detroit Blog (now featured in the Metro Times) for years and a month back he had a nice piece on a branch of the Detroit Public Library if anyone is interested: http://www.detroitblog.org/?p= 561 (Message edited by Miss_d_meanor on February 21, 2009) | ||
Bobl Member Username: Bobl Post Number: 542 Registered: 07-2008 |
A family member owned a business in Detroit in the 1980-1995 period. Trash collection was sporadic, so he hired a private contractor to remove trash. The container was illegal, and he received a letter and citation in the mail. The letter consisted of three paragraphs and had three misspellings. He framed it and placed it on his wall! | ||
Roadmaster49 Member Username: Roadmaster49 Post Number: 118 Registered: 01-2008 |
Measurement. I think it's subjective. BUT there are reading and writing issues everywhere (even here in Iowa) A quick look through Craigs List ads in any state provde that notion. So it comes down to what does it mean and how does it hold Detroit back? | ||
Roadmaster49 Member Username: Roadmaster49 Post Number: 119 Registered: 01-2008 |
Measurement. I think it's subjective. BUT there are reading and writing issues everywhere (even here in Iowa) A quick look through Craigs List ads in any state prove that notion. So it comes down to what does it mean and how does it hold Detroit back? | ||
Goat Member Username: Goat Post Number: 2794 Registered: 10-2003 |
As I have stated before if only 10-15% of people are voting in the primaries then I would consider that the illiteracy rate to be quite high. Maybe not 47% but I would suspect in the 30+ percentile. Want to fix Detroit? Fix the damn school board first. Because Detroit will then receive jobs and then that should cut down on the crime rate. Interesting to see how Detroit's schools started to crumb so did the very fabric of Detroit. | ||
Daddeeo Member Username: Daddeeo Post Number: 473 Registered: 09-2008 |
Have you heard how some people talk? Sometimes, I think I'm in a foreign country where English is a second language. | ||
Izzyindetroit Member Username: Izzyindetroit Post Number: 178 Registered: 07-2008 |
Where I work we deal with 18-24 year old HS dropouts. As part of the application process into our program everyone is required to take a TABE (Testing of Adult Basic Education) test. Due to funding and time restraints we can only except a 6th grade or higher average on both math and reading skills. Out of the last 300 or so applicants we have only been able to select around 75 people into our program. So from this small sample one could argue that 75% of Detroiters cannot read at a seventh grade level. The reason why the seventh grade level is so important and why you see it used in calculating literacy rates is because most newspapers and print magazines are written at a level that a seventh grader can easily read. | ||
Themax Member Username: Themax Post Number: 837 Registered: 09-2005 |
How does illiteracy hold people back? I'd think that illiterates might find it difficult to deal with the complex issues of the day because they have not been exposed to them. And I don't think the headline approach that TV gives to the news is very informative. Public TV and NPR are the main media outlets the average person could use to be even mildly informed, and Congress has been cutting funding to them for years. | ||
Crumbled_pavement Member Username: Crumbled_pavement Post Number: 704 Registered: 08-2007 |
I would answer this thread but I have no idea what it says or how to formulate a reply. Besides, this web thingy is even more confusing. Internet! What's a internet? | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 5788 Registered: 10-2003 |
Izzy - Your program is for 18-24 year old HS drop outs. This is a specific group so using a sample of this group to represent all of Detroit is not a complete representation. | ||
Themax Member Username: Themax Post Number: 839 Registered: 09-2005 |
Does illiteracy hold back a city? I think so since illiteracy makes it hard for people to deal with the complex issues of the day. Heck, there are people who are declared literate who can't make sense of some of the news articles about the current financial mess. Public TV and NPR are two sources of information for the average person, but I think illiteracy also inclines people to not be interested or feel incapable of understanding issues. | ||
Izzyindetroit Member Username: Izzyindetroit Post Number: 179 Registered: 07-2008 |
Jt1, I understand that, still it is hard to ignore those type of numbers, especially when most of them dropped out in high school. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 5789 Registered: 10-2003 |
I think that the education and illiteracy in the city is a major issue but you are dealing with drop outs so the numbers will be skewed, potentially much higher. I would say the numbers are believable given the population you are working with. | ||
English Member Username: English Post Number: 453 Registered: 10-2003 |
"Public TV and NPR are two sources of information for the average person, but I think illiteracy also inclines people to not be interested or feel incapable of understanding issues." I assure you that even most educated Detroiters don't listen to NPR. I had a master's degree when I left Detroit, and even I didn't start listening to NPR religiously until I moved to Ann Arbor. Even then, it was out of necessity. You can't function in certain social circles up here unless you're NPR literate. Public TV is a little different. My department chairs and a lot of other Michigan faculty in my neck of the woods do not watch television and pride themselves on not even owning one. (I don't know want to know what they'd think about me having DirecTV. I'm sure I'd be judged!) NPR and Public TV are both hallmarks of a particular socioeconomic and cultural sector of the population. Christian Lander's awesome blog, Stuff White People Like, lists NPR as an essential for the "Right Kind of White People": http://stuffwhitepeoplelike.co m/2008/01/31/44-public-radio/ Back in Detroit, we did have other means to keep up with local, national and international events. I miss things like the Mildred Gaddis show and the Michigan Citizen up here... even the first 5-10 pages of the Metro Times. I also feel as if I had more of a finger on the pulse of cutting-edge "regular people's" information and news than I do up here. Living in Midtown during the first half of the decade was like living in an awesome crucible. There was never a dull moment. | ||
Pam Member Username: Pam Post Number: 5061 Registered: 11-2005 |
quote: Accept. Just doing my part to promote literacy. | ||
Zulu_warrior Member Username: Zulu_warrior Post Number: 1256 Registered: 10-2003 |
Illiteracy as a statistic is misleading. Here's why..... Literacy used to mean, in its basic form, can a person read and write. This standard pretty much was applied consistently through the 1980's.... Then in 1992 the US Dept of Education floated the idea of reassessing this standard http://nces.ed.gov/pubs93/9327 5.pdf It was performed by the National Center for Education Statistics (NCES). And it tested for adult literacy along three areas: Prose Document Quantitative Prose referes to reading a paragraph and interpreting meaning or extrapolation of facts. Document means the filling out of forms common in daily use- bank forms, job applications, etc Quantitative referred to math, especially story problems. 11 states were used in the test. They were: California, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Louisiana, New Jersey, New York, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Texas, Washington. The National Center for Education Statistics provides [http://nces.ed.gov/NAAL/datafi les.asp more detail] . Literacy is broken down into three parameters: prose, document, and quantitative literacy. Each parameter has four levels: below basic, basic, intermediate, and proficient. For prose literacy, for example, a below basic level of literacy means that a person can look at a short piece of text to get a small piece of uncomplicated information; while a person who is below basic in quantitative literacy would be able to do simple addition. In the US, 43% of the adult population is at the below or basic level for prose literacy; 34% are at the below or basic level for document literacy; and 55% are at those levels for quantitative literacy. Only 13% of the population is proficient in these three areas—able to compare viewpoints in two editorials; interpret a table about blood pressure, age, and physical activity; or compute and compare the cost per ounce of food items. This is important, because as you see, literacy as we used to know it has been pretty much eradicated. See the table in the link below. http://nces.ed.gov/naal/lit_hi story.asp By the old standard in 1979 .6 of the population was illiterate in 1979. This new "functional" illiteracy has pitfalls. People can be functionally illiterate if they can balance a check book, but not do a word problem in math. A person can be a functional illiterate if they can read two opinion articles in the news paper and interpret the meaning, but not understand graph, line, or pie charts well. The study allow admits that people who took the exam in 1992 who were over 40, fared worse than many younger persons, as their educational attainment levels were lower than under 40 persons. So a city with many seniors, would have higher rates of functional illiteracy than say a city like Ann Arbor with lots of younger residents. A number of reasonable extrapolations can be had from this: 1) Functional illiteracy and illiteracy are not the same terms and should not be used interchangeably. 2) Michigan was not a baseline study state, so no true measurement of Michigan's literacy exists. What is derived is a socio-economic profile that extrapolates rates based on demographics..not a sampling of what was actually here. 3) Illiteracy, or Functional illiteracy, can not be blamed on the local educational system. Cities like Detroit have many residents who were not educated here. My parents were educated in different parts of the South, yet they reside here in Detroit. If the statistical extaroplation which gives Detroit its illteracy rate doesnt account for migratory patterns, or better yet, a factoring of who was actually educated herem, and by what district, you cannot blame DPS for that. 4)Given that the skills to compete in the global economy, the older you get, the more functionally illiterate you are likely to become. This applies across racial and gender lines, so that the number of septugenarians on Facebook is an inverse to the number of the same group who are "functionally illiterate. These are my thoughts, I welcome the discourse.... | ||
Detroitjim Member Username: Detroitjim Post Number: 65 Registered: 02-2008 |
Yup, the standards have changed. Just like back in the 1930's a high speed police chase would reach velocities of 35 miles per hour. | ||
Izzyindetroit Member Username: Izzyindetroit Post Number: 180 Registered: 07-2008 |
lol thanks Pam | ||
Cheddar_bob Member Username: Cheddar_bob Post Number: 1795 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: No, you couldn't argue that. That's like saying a vast majority of people at an AA meeting are alcoholics. Or a large percentage of people at church on Sunday are religious. Or most of the people in Mexico are Mexican. | ||
Izzyindetroit Member Username: Izzyindetroit Post Number: 182 Registered: 07-2008 |
A dropout can be defined as someone who does not complete a course of study. Therefore a student could have been forced out of the public schools because they didn't have enough credits to graduate by the time they reached the state maximum age limit of 19. By your logic CB, students choose to dropout. There are numerous reasons why the city's youth do not complete HS. At any rate however why is it that many (according to what I stated earlier 75%) of young adults that have completed grades 7-11, still unable to read above a sixth grade level?? Within a city with a graduation rate of a debatable 22%-50%, (http://ezinearticles.com/?Dism al-Drop-Out-Rates-for-Detroit- Schools&id=642244, http://www.detnews.com/apps/pb cs.dll/article?AID=/20080605/S CHOOLS/806050356) there are plenty of young adults in Detroit looking for a GED. Why aren't youth earning their education the first time around in High School? It is clear that there is a major problem with the current system that is in place. (Message edited by izzyindetroit on February 22, 2009) | ||
Miss_d_meanor Member Username: Miss_d_meanor Post Number: 10 Registered: 02-2009 |
Izzyindetroit Wow, I'm saddened to hear that but may I ask what type of program you work for? Zulu_warrior A very interesting post but I must admit that initially I thought you were going to say literacy was judged by ones 'prose style.' I'm not sure if spelling errors are all that indicative of illiteracy. Personally, I'm an absolutely atrocious speller but I'm an avid reader as well. As a book lover it greatly saddens me that a recent survey found 1 in 4 Americans did not read a single book in the last 12 months. Man, I read 58 books last year, how can someone go an entire year without even reading one? And if that's nationwide, I shutter to think of the Detroit average. Furthermore, if illiteracy is such a problem here, I hesitate to ask what percentage of Detroiters are scientifically literate? *rant over* (Message edited by Miss_d_meanor on February 22, 2009) | ||
Cch Member Username: Cch Post Number: 5 Registered: 05-2008 |
judging from a pool of friends or family who live in detroit and/or went to DPS is almost as biased a sample as the person who works for an organization that helps high school dropouts. additionally, there are "true" illiterates in this city and it's not just the homeless. i have friends who work in restaurants who get flippant customers every single day who hand the menu right back to them and say, "read it to me" in a haughty voice. it's not because they're too "good" to read it, it's because they can't. and i think we can all agree that normal ten year olds can read a restaurant menu. | ||
Savannah Member Username: Savannah Post Number: 114 Registered: 02-2008 |
I think we have just become a nation of morons in the last 30 years. Most people don't know anything that happened more than 6 months ago. Steve Allen, who many considered witty,said not long before he died, that [as late as the '60's,anyone who claimed to have seen a flying saucer was the neighborhood kook. Now they're the neighbors] But Detroit is by no means alone in the illiteracy boat."Life for the people who can't read, Time for the people who can't think" | ||
Savannah Member Username: Savannah Post Number: 115 Registered: 02-2008 |
Another reflection on illiteracy; as a young person, in the '60's and '70's I would occasionally encounter elderly folks that couldn't read.Someone who grew up,You know, before we spent 20,000 or so a year per student. Nowadays, the illiterates I run into are younger than I. | ||
Neilr Member Username: Neilr Post Number: 683 Registered: 06-2005 |
quote:  Early 1900s. A Hampton Institute cadet reads for his grandparents, who being ex-slaves were never taught to read _ Tuskegee Institute Archives Some Time Ago A Historical Portrait of Black Americans 1850-1900 Chester Higgins and Orde Coombs, 1980 |
