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Mikeg
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Username: Mikeg

Post Number: 2248
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Monday, March 02, 2009 - 12:51 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Yawn. Did someone hear something?


Translation = "It's only a flesh wound"

Black Knight


This is nothing but pure pork. Local apathy prevents a regional project from getting enough private and/or public funding so the proponents turn to their representatives in Congress to get Federal funding for it. I'm sure the folks in Boston will be pleased to hear some of their tax dollars are going to be used to "save" the remains of Tiger Stadium.
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Gistok
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Username: Gistok

Post Number: 6186
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Monday, March 02, 2009 - 12:55 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have no emotional attachments to Tiger Stadium. However of the few times I went there earlier in my life I often parked in one of the empty lots that dotted the Corktown neighborhood around the stadium.

I thought to myself... geeze, what a horrible way to ruin a neighborhood. For 81 days a year there are weed strewn unkept lots jammed with cars interspersed among the surviving housing stock. I thought to myself... gee this would suck to live here... 81 days of parking gridlock.

Since the Tigers moved to a new site, there has been infill housing built, and the neighborhood was getting better. So whenever I hear someone mention that a new Arena should go on the site of Tiger Stadium, I said here we go again... lets try another attempt to ruin one of the few surviving historic neighborhoods we have left in Detroit.

To return Tiger Stadium to the much smaller Navin Field would really be a nice way to preserve a part of the citys history without wiping it off the map.

Granted the 3.8 million could be spent in other more benevolent ways... but this is a chance to preserve a small piece of what little history we haven't demolished or left to rot in Detroit.
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Birdie
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Username: Birdie

Post Number: 132
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Monday, March 02, 2009 - 12:58 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

how can you say that "This project will generate little end value other than emotional satisfaction."

??

have you even read what the project entails? you seem awfully opposed to it without much knowledge of what is proposed.


and it "looks ridiculous?"

no construction has even begun!

sheeesh.
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Lowell
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Username: Lowell

Post Number: 2231
Registered: 09-2003
Posted on Monday, March 02, 2009 - 1:11 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"...there isn't significant history at this site worthy of federal money. It was a baseball stadium. Period. No real important American history happened here."

BFG, what is "real important American history"?

You offer some valuable technical information and are obviously well versed and experienced in the brownfield studies. But you are using this as a wedge to stray into public policy and then make declarations on what is important about American history and what should be built in someone else's neighborhood.

By your arguments just about every home and Chemlawn-poisoned backyard in the metro should be torn down.

Your posts come off like those of detached bureaucrat, insensitive the people who live in the neighborhood and have worked so hard to create the many successes achieved, insensitive to the millions of memories and decades of baseball, family and American history attached to that site.
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Supersport
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Username: Supersport

Post Number: 2599
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Monday, March 02, 2009 - 1:18 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

BFG, so tell us, just how far outside the city do you live? Judging by your opinion of what's best for Detroit, I'm guessing you're beyond the outer ring suburbs?
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Beech_cricker
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Username: Beech_cricker

Post Number: 68
Registered: 10-2008
Posted on Monday, March 02, 2009 - 7:18 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Gistok, in looking at old photos of the Corktown neighborhood in decades past, it appeared to have been a very vibrant neighborhood. So I don't think one could say the Tigers ruined the neighborhood. There were bigger problems out there.

As for the parking lots, I know a lot of those owners made a ton of cash each baseball season. If they chose to clean up their lots after a game, or at least periodically, perhaps the neighborhood would have been better for it. With a lot marred by garbage, a person is going to be less motivated to do the right thing in terms of disposal and the trash situation only worsens.

(Message edited by Beech_cricker on March 02, 2009)
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Smogboy
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Username: Smogboy

Post Number: 6758
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Monday, March 02, 2009 - 9:57 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Brownfieldguy, I guess IF the Ilitches were set to take control of that property and build a new hockey stadium there after the demolition of Tiger Stadium, I'd be a little more inclined to buy into the notion. If things were set into place with a viable solution for the property post-demolition, I think more people would be understanding. If it was announced that the property were to be demolished and a new SOMETHING were to be put there, you're still going to get rumblings from baseball enthusiasts but there would be fewer and there would be some measure of hope for something going up immediately after the destruction. As it stands right now according to your plan (forgive me if I make an assumption here) but you don't have a plan for that property beyond the leveling of the structure. I don't believe anyone has addressed what would go there other than a big empty lot.

You mention things about how the field is possibly filled with arsenic, lead, DDT and other possible dangers- but it also calls into play, what does the demolition team plan on doing with that field? Leave it bare? Obviously the demolition and clean-up crews would have to address that situation same as the Tiger Stadium Conservancy would do if their plan were to win out. I'm also left wondering if the demolition has kicked up more of the contaminants than it would've been if there wasn't any action taken on the structure. Was there a safe approved plan for removal of the asbestos in the building?

I have yet to see any other viable plans for use of the space beyond what the Conservancy people have suggested. Get one of those in place and I'd almost be willing to see the last vestiges of the stadium go to dust. I'm not sold on the notion that this addition by subtraction is a good thing here.
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Fnemecek
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Username: Fnemecek

Post Number: 1950
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Monday, March 02, 2009 - 10:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

MikeG:
Congrats on injecting Monty Python into this thread.

Lowell:
Amen. Add to all of your comments the fundamental fact that putting a new facility for the Red Wings on that spot is just bad planning.

Beech_cricker:
When exactly were those "decades old photographs" taken? Were they taken post-1950s when the automobile - and with it, the need for parking - became so prevalent?

If so, it was probably taken on a game day.
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Gistok
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Username: Gistok

Post Number: 6189
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Monday, March 02, 2009 - 11:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Gistok, in looking at old photos of the Corktown neighborhood in decades past, it appeared to have been a very vibrant neighborhood. So I don't think one could say the Tigers ruined the neighborhood. There were bigger problems out there.



Beech_cricket... the point I was trying to make is that in other neighborhoods around Detroit homes were torn down due to abandonmnent... but in Corktown they were torn down due to making $$$ off of jamming in the parking spaces in the now empty lots.
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Ktkeller08
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Username: Ktkeller08

Post Number: 32
Registered: 10-2008
Posted on Tuesday, March 03, 2009 - 7:14 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Although this sounds good, my question is, will this be a break-even venture or a profitable one? Or will it be something that the city or state will have to prop up in 10 years because it can't make money. The reason I ask this is because I'm pretty sure the fed money is a one time deal and this thing is going to require funding for.. well a long time.

I guess I'm just skeptical that if they couldn't get the money they needed w/o fed money now that they won't be able to support themselves in the future.
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Beech_cricker
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Username: Beech_cricker

Post Number: 70
Registered: 10-2008
Posted on Tuesday, March 03, 2009 - 7:25 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Gistok, I think you make a very good point about homes being converted to parking lots. I'm sure that was the situation many times over.
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Mackinaw
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Username: Mackinaw

Post Number: 4395
Registered: 02-2005
Posted on Tuesday, March 03, 2009 - 9:20 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Spending public money on Tiger Stadium is only extravagant if you look at things very narrowly.

First of all, historic landmarks receive public funds all the time.

Second of all, if you want to debate the merits of Tiger Stadium's landmark status per se, don't, because most people here and in other cities acknowledge it as one. People would highly value being able to enjoy a monument to baseball and American history in one of the best baseball towns in America. People in my generation would value being able to show their children where they saw their first baseball game.

And there's nothing extravagant about keeping a landmark-- and properly turning it into a monument/destination-- when it means, aside from all these warm/fuzzies above, cold hard cash. Yes, indeed, it will bring in money because it will be one more thing for visitors to Detroit to see. Many will stay one more night in a downtown hotel and plan a day to visit Corktown and the Tiger Stadium monument. That means more successful Detroit hotels and restaurants and more Detroiters employed. Not to mention the fact that creating and running a Tiger stadium monument will create jobs, and probably spur more activity in Corktown.
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Norm
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Username: Norm

Post Number: 91
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Tuesday, March 03, 2009 - 2:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Um, isn't the field supposed to be used by kids from Detroit and the surrounding suburbs? There are few nice baseball fields in the city. High school teams, little league teams and others would be able to use it. The museum and other shops/restaurants will also help. I don't quite get the argument that this is a terrible idea.
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Professorscott
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Username: Professorscott

Post Number: 1850
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Tuesday, March 03, 2009 - 3:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What fascinates me about this whole idea is the rather fantastic notion that there will ever be shops and restaurants. There are very few areas in Detroit that have been able to attract and retain shops and restaurants. One might make the argument that this location is very convenient to freeways, but so are lots of other places in Detroit.

I think they will build a museum, since they want to and now there's money to do it. I don't know how many people will go to this museum, but it will probably exist. Whether anyone plays ball there depends on a lot of picky details. What will it cost to play ball at that site? Where shall people park? Who will carry the insurance? And so on.

But I've formed a pretty clear idea about retail. Pigs will fly before there is shopping and dining at that site.

I don't think this is a particularly good use of my tax dollars, but then most of what Uncle Sugar uses my tax dollars for, I don't agree with; and this is at least not harmful.
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Oldestuff
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Username: Oldestuff

Post Number: 118
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Tuesday, March 03, 2009 - 3:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I agree that attracting retail is lame, the only shops I see opening in the various strip malls are
check cashing and cheap insurance. I want the Tiger Stadium plan to work, and if the only shops that open are along the line of concession shops, I don't have a problem with that. I always felt that Ilitch should have kept the ice cream and candy shops and souvenier shops open after the Tigers left to provide something for the many people who came to the old stadium and took pictures and told stories. The neighborhood would have liked it too, a walk to the "corner" and an ice cream cone on a warm summer night.
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Melocoton
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Username: Melocoton

Post Number: 70
Registered: 01-2008
Posted on Tuesday, March 03, 2009 - 4:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I've always thought the great thing about this project is that it will instantly create the best youth baseball field in Michigan, maybe the country, right here in Detroit. And my hope is that it will be a public resource.

As you know, Professor, once upon a time building public parks was considered a good use of tax dollars, regardless of whether or not anyone bought anything there or not.
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Professorscott
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Username: Professorscott

Post Number: 1852
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Tuesday, March 03, 2009 - 5:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Park"? It doesn't take millions of dollars to build a park. If that was what was wanted, I'd be 100% in favor of spending some multiple of $10K to do it.
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Norm
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Username: Norm

Post Number: 92
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Tuesday, March 03, 2009 - 5:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

For all of you against the project, Senator Coburn from Oklahoma has an amendment pending to the FY2009 omnibus appropriations bill that would eliminate the dollars for the Old Tiger Stadium Conservancy. So the money may never get there in the first place.
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Lowell
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Username: Lowell

Post Number: 2233
Registered: 09-2003
Posted on Tuesday, March 03, 2009 - 5:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If it happens, I think a big money maker would be to sell at bats against a pitching machine at home plate. A lot of people would love to pay for the chance to dig and hit where were Ruth, Kaline, Cobb, Mantle, Gehrig, Greenberg... once stood.
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401don
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Username: 401don

Post Number: 939
Registered: 11-2007
Posted on Tuesday, March 03, 2009 - 8:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I agree Lowell. The number of buses coming over from Nemo's, etc. would triple if BP were held a couple of hours before/after Tiger home games. 10 swings for 5 bucks.
They should also allow the The Detroit Athletic Co. to move its store into the park. The owner already survives on Michigan Ave. by doing most of his business on the internet and wouldn't need the year round traffic. Concerts could be held to raise money as well as allowing local churches to raise funds with gospel events.
The Tigers could bring in their A or Double A teams a couple of weekends a year when the Tigers are on the road although Ilitch doesn't seem to want any part of this.
A natural fit would be to relocate the Michigan Sports Hall of Fame into the park as it already has a small budget but gets virtually no exposure. The main thing is to make sure to schedule a lot of events and not allow it to sit idle. Hold Little League tournaments with visiting teams from throughout Ontario and the Midwest. Let the Corktown community be involved. People won't come to visit an empty field and museum for more than a year. Even the "field of dreams" in Iowa was plowed under a couple of years ago.
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Beech_cricker
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Username: Beech_cricker

Post Number: 71
Registered: 10-2008
Posted on Wednesday, March 04, 2009 - 7:44 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

An article from Model D:

http://modeldmedia.com/develop mentnews/tigerstadiumupdate181 09.aspx
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Stosh
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Username: Stosh

Post Number: 74
Registered: 01-2009
Posted on Wednesday, March 04, 2009 - 9:35 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What would be reasonable would be a reproduction of the fences used in ball parks of the past. Advertising signs on board, something like this.




Of course I'm sure that you've seen better examples of this elsewhere. The point here would be to recreate a major league ballpark from the 1912 era. not even Fenway or Wrigley could do that now.
Place whatever you like beyond the original field dimensions. Future retail. etc. As a historical reimagining (I hate that word, but it fits) it could be a draw.
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Drm
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Username: Drm

Post Number: 362
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Wednesday, March 04, 2009 - 10:12 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

I think they will build a museum, since they want to and now there's money to do it. I don't know how many people will go to this museum, but it will probably exist. Whether anyone plays ball there depends on a lot of picky details. What will it cost to play ball at that site? Where shall people park? Who will carry the insurance? And so on.

I'm sure no one thought of these things before, thanks for checking in.

From what I understand, the DEGC is reviewing the Conservancy's updated and detailed plans as we speak. Let's keep our fingers crossed that this continues to move forward.
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Rhymeswithrawk
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Username: Rhymeswithrawk

Post Number: 1751
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Wednesday, March 04, 2009 - 3:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

More on Coburn's attempts to ax the Tiger Stadium funding:


http://www.freep.com/article/2 0090304/NEWS01/90304080/Levin+ defends+$3.8M+earmark+to+preserve+stad ium
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Lowereast
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Username: Lowereast

Post Number: 39
Registered: 08-2007
Posted on Wednesday, March 04, 2009 - 5:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'd be curious to find out which earmarks would be left in the bill, especially since taking out the funds for Tiger Stadium is No 2 on his list. Seems to me things are of historic value unless they are here.
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Macknwarren
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Username: Macknwarren

Post Number: 138
Registered: 10-2007
Posted on Wednesday, March 04, 2009 - 7:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

“Is this a priority for Congress? If it is really a priority for Congress, I don’t belong here,” he said Tuesday. “We can preserve it later.”

That was Coburn, and I agree. At this time, preserving part of Tiger Stadium cannot be a priority for U.S. taxpayers, including those in the great state of Michigan. The preservationists' vision (dreams? fantasies?) are commendable, but there is no way they are going to raise their hoped-for $33 milliion, nor attract shops and other retail in what is mostly a dismal area. I know, Slows is down the street, but c'mon.
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Lowell
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Username: Lowell

Post Number: 2236
Registered: 09-2003
Posted on Thursday, March 05, 2009 - 12:18 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Nice picture and ideas Stosh and 401don. I believe there was a time when there was just standing room areas down the foul lines. That is now possible. Bringing in minor league teams or even retro 19th C bare hands games could be fun. For BP add in a 'hit this sign and win $XXXXX' could spur business and advertising.
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Detourdetroit
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Username: Detourdetroit

Post Number: 356
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Thursday, March 05, 2009 - 12:31 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

keep in mind dear friends that over $100 million of our taxpayer sponds were used for *beloved* Comerica Park.

tens of millions more in lost tax credits for the demoed historic properties were also wrecked, plasticized and shorn away as well... where's detroit college of law again???
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Fnemecek
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Username: Fnemecek

Post Number: 1955
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Thursday, March 05, 2009 - 12:44 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Detour:
The Detroit College of Law used to produce lawyers. It housed law students. I think we can all agree that Detroit is better off without that kind of riff raff running around our fair city.
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Professorscott
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Username: Professorscott

Post Number: 1858
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Thursday, March 05, 2009 - 12:47 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers."

Shakespeare, Henry V
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Mackinaw
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Username: Mackinaw

Post Number: 4397
Registered: 02-2005
Posted on Thursday, March 05, 2009 - 9:35 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If DCL was still downtown it would have developed into a nice little community, especially with the redevelopment of Brush Park. You'd have a lot more young people with good reasons to live downtown.

Yeah, those lawyers, they're no help at all...

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