  Lodgedodger Member Username: Lodgedodger Post Number: 1577 Registered: 05-2008 |
Convention center plan must go forward http://freep.com/article/20090 301/OPINION05/90227125 >>Cobo’s financial records are not in a condition to be audited, making it difficult to ascertain the depth of its losses.<< This comment alone is a reason to regionalize Cobo. What the heck, the records are not in a condition to be audited?!? Pathetic! Quite a few other comments in the piece concern me, but this one just jumped out at me. I pray all this bs and corruption are exposed--soon! | ||
Detroitbill Member Username: Detroitbill Post Number: 687 Registered: 09-2006 |
Ficano is trying to pull out all of the stops to get this thing going but Im sure he cant believe the stooges he is dealing with in City Clowncil. The CC people have no idea what they are doing, nor care less about the dire straights they are leading everyone into. The city has no money to even maintain the structure as is let alone be picky as to its expansion. The fact CC cannot even see that expansion is the best shot the city has to bring in more badly needed tourist dollars is unbelievable. Its taken 20 years to get hotels, restaurants and casinos in place and now this.. If no expansion takes place, and no regionalization occurs, that place will go the way of Ford Auditorium, the city cant even keep its books on the place correct and its known the place is not being maintained properly. Clowncil is nuts for not letting a regional authority ( for which they have veto power) take it over, expand it and maintain it. | ||
Purpleheart Member Username: Purpleheart Post Number: 62 Registered: 01-2009 |
I supported what council did. This was nothing but an effort to take over Cobo one of Detroit's crown jewels! When I graduated from De La Salle I went to work for the Carpenters Union 118 as an apprentice. One of the jobs I did during the winter was work at Cobo assembling the shows. I worked there until 1983 when the embassy and barracks were attacked in Lebanon and enlisted in the US Marines one week later. Well I retired in 1997 and went back to work for the carpenters union and was totally surprised that the oldest union in Detroit was ousted/ taken over by the Millwrights and ever since Cobo has gone downhill. The unions lost almost all the concessions and oversight to non-union folks who have driven this sweet jewel of a building right into the ground. I don't know who is getting what in terms of kickbacks or swiping the pot from this but somebody is asleep at the switch. Even the SAE shows are now in Novi at the direction of chief swindler (my own opinion) ROCK Financial and his crony/patsy L. Brooks Patterson. Is Detroit getting anything from the SAE Shows in Novi? And you folks want to turn over Cobo to them? You got to be kidding me right? The council got it correct by rejecting this take over deal and wait out for either a better deal that puts the citizens of Detroit in control completely or BUY COBO FROM THEM! But don't expect too many folks to back the buyout. You'd have better luck selling Belle Isle or the Water Board... ha ha ha. | ||
Lodgedodger Member Username: Lodgedodger Post Number: 1578 Registered: 05-2008 |
bump | ||
Novine Member Username: Novine Post Number: 1170 Registered: 07-2007 |
"The council got it correct by rejecting this take over deal and wait out for either a better deal that puts the citizens of Detroit in control completely or BUY COBO FROM THEM!" Guess what Purpleheart, you aren't going to get any better deals and no one if going to "buy" Cobo. Detroit is acting like all of the people who sat while the housing market crashed, refusing to take good deals from buyers because they had a vision of cashing out like it was 1999. The party's over and no one is buying and the deals aren't going to get any better. You'll be like the person who refused to take a good deal and is now stuck in their home with no deal and facing foreclosure. | ||
Lodgedodger Member Username: Lodgedodger Post Number: 1581 Registered: 05-2008 |
Cobo is NOT a jewel. It is an out-dated, sorry excuse for a conference center. Detroit doesn't have the money to fix it. Stop making it out to be something it isn't. | ||
Locke09 Member Username: Locke09 Post Number: 20 Registered: 02-2009 |
quote: No. Detroit is like the elderly grandfather who is having trouble paying the taxes on his property. Then a grandchild offers to pay the taxes and take care of the "poor senile" grandfather if the grandfather will sign the deed over to him. The grandfather does so and ends up in a nursing home anyway. (I've seen it happen!) It's not a good deal as it stands. People on this forum and others have noted that Rock Financial Center is competition for Cobo. Now Detroit is supposed to turn Cobo over to an authority that invests absolute veto power in the County Executive of the county in which Rock Financial resides? What's to keep that person from stonewalling on anything that might allow Cobo to take business away from Rock Financial. The authority structure alone makes it a bad deal. | ||
Supersport Member Username: Supersport Post Number: 2602 Registered: 10-2003 |
"Outdated." This term really baffles me. A convention center is basically 4 walls, paint, and carpet. What exactly becomes "outdated?" The paint and carpet? Does the lobby leading into the convention center really play a roll in attracting conventions? | ||
Lodgedodger Member Username: Lodgedodger Post Number: 1582 Registered: 05-2008 |
Have you been to Cobo lately? Better still, have you been to conference centers in other cities? | ||
Novine Member Username: Novine Post Number: 1171 Registered: 07-2007 |
"People on this forum and others have noted that Rock Financial Center is competition for Cobo." No, it's not. The owner of the Rock said that they serve different markets and shows. http://tinyurl.com/cn5wxq | ||
Schulzte1 Member Username: Schulzte1 Post Number: 103 Registered: 01-2007 |
Cobo Center is not a crown jewel. It isn't even an agate stone. This city council is delusional. Grand Rapids, Indianapolis, Salt Lake City, Louisville, all mid-sized cities with better convention centers than Detroit; I've been to them all. Cobo Center isn't worth a thin dime as it sits right now, the the city would do well to get the albatross off its books and let the folks that have means to renovate and take care of the facility actually do it. | ||
Thecarl Member Username: Thecarl Post Number: 902 Registered: 04-2005 |
quote: energy-efficient construction materials; energy-efficient and modern hvac; energy-efficient and modern lighting; infrastructure for voice, video, and data; modernized loading and unloading facilities; accessibility options; modern audio and video systems... | ||
Thecarl Member Username: Thecarl Post Number: 904 Registered: 04-2005 |
at best, those on council are foolish and spiteful. in practice, they're probably being paid for their votes by those who wish to maintain the status quo. furthermore, it's probably best to keep the ledgers hidden from prying eyes anyway. to say that council members are simply being short-sighted implies that they're basically honest, but incompetent. hopefully we will soon learn the depth of their thievery, and it may provide insight into many of their votes - such as in this case. | ||
Crawford Member Username: Crawford Post Number: 495 Registered: 10-2006 |
Wow, if Purpeheart is a representative sample of the Detroit voter, then Detroit really is doomed. Worthless Cobo is a "jewel"? Could you even sell it for $1? It's hard to know what to do about such nonsense. Maybe L. Brooks is right, and the best thing for all concerned is to just make Oakland County the center of the region (if it isn't already). With this sort of ignorant Zimbabwe-esque mentality, Detroit has no hopes for recovery, and is headed on the fast track to destruction, state taxover and eventual breakup. | ||
Showstoppa Member Username: Showstoppa Post Number: 6 Registered: 11-2008 |
For those of you who don't think Cobo is outdated. Go to Chicago and look at McCormick Place or on a smaller scale Indianapolis is building a new convention or adding to the one they have. Both of these make Cobo look like a second-rate banquet hall ! | ||
Lodgedodger Member Username: Lodgedodger Post Number: 1584 Registered: 05-2008 |
Problem is, many folks think like Supersport. Sad. Imagine staying at the Book or Athenium, then attending an event at Cobo. It looks sadder every year. People in this town need to look at Cobo realistically--it's a dog. The city doesn't have the money to do what it takes to make it a viable venue before it is too late. We almost lost the German automakers for the 2010 NAIAS. Don't give them a reason to drop us in 2011. | ||
Bobl Member Username: Bobl Post Number: 592 Registered: 07-2008 |
quote: "Cobo’s financial records are not in a condition to be audited, making it difficult to ascertain the depth of its losses" Substitute "City Of Detroit" for "Cobo" Substitute "Detroit Public Schools" for "Cobo" Why is this acceptable? Who's in charge here? What will the feds find? Will timely audits ever be required? "Makes you want to holler, throw up both your hands..." | ||
Lodgedodger Member Username: Lodgedodger Post Number: 1588 Registered: 05-2008 |
Actually, I could have ripped a door off its hinges after last week's vote. Bob, I'm with you, who will be held responsible for this? It's as if no one's had to answer for any of this. This is similar to the funds raised for the upkeep of the Manoogian. Over $600K when KK took office; less than $20K when he left. No records. It's as if it's no big deal. | ||
Novine Member Username: Novine Post Number: 1172 Registered: 07-2007 |
"Imagine staying at the Book or Athenium, then attending an event at Cobo. It looks sadder every year." One of the big problems is many people don't know any different. They haven't been to other cities and seen just how far behind Detroit has fallen. Even Dennis Archer, who should have known better, always sounded delusional calling Detroit a world-class city. It wasn't then and it isn't today. One can have hope that Detroit could return to that position but to pretend that it can even match up to smaller cities like Indianapolis or Minneapolis is just delusional. We are so far behind and we're falling farther behind every day. | ||
Digitalvision Member Username: Digitalvision Post Number: 1387 Registered: 11-2003 |
The answer is, Supersport, yes, the Lobby DOES play a role. I don't blame you for not knowing, I'm thinking you don't work in the convention business. Most people don't. A convention is ALL about perception - it's part of the point, if not the whole point, of having shows and convention is to impress the attendees. It's a big peacock display for the people who pay tons of money to set up displays that vanish after a week or two at the longest. The place is not up to par, from the crumbling parking deck to the janky hallways, and having been to and worked in many convention centers and areans in my life (close to 30), the only one I think is worse was when I set up a show in Saginaw in some two-bit arena. Having it be top-notch and updated is the nature of the convention game. And yes, it's a constant process and will continue to require if not expansions, renovations. One of the reasons a larger area to draw money from is more reasonable (and the way most other major convention centers in the country work this way) is because of this constant investment that's required. | ||
Locke09 Member Username: Locke09 Post Number: 21 Registered: 02-2009 |
quote: No one can deny that Cobo needs much improvement. But how can anyone say it is not worth a thin dime when it still generates almost 600 million dollars in economic benefit a year? Would we even have so much anger and animosity (and outright hatred) over this if it really was not worth a thin dime? People act as if a rich uncle is coming in with a pocketful of money to bail Detroit out where Cobo is concerned. Is everyone actually reading the current legislation and the funding data covering the past 20 years? The hotel tax goes first to fund Cobo. Who do you think provides the most hotel tax? Then the liquor tax is added to cover any additional need. Finally, Detroit gives 11-15 million out of its general fund. Under the new authority, the only thing Detroit won't be required to give is the supplement out of its general fund. It will be required to give up the parking revenue. There is no one community in Michigan that can fund Cobo independently. There is no combination of communities that can fund it without the significant hotel/liquor tax generated in Detroit. That goes for any new major convention center that people think is going to be built elsewhere in Michigan. Oh, and the hotel tax portion of the funding for 1985 - 2007 was over $344 million out of the $357 million in hotel/liquor tax that went to Cobo. So the liquor tax portion was only about 12 million. I might be wrong, but that implies to me that people from out of town actually pay more into Cobo than anyone in the region. Should they also have control? There should be regional cooperation and even an authority, but I am not following the prevailing wisdom that the current deal cannot be improved. | ||
Stosh Member Username: Stosh Post Number: 71 Registered: 01-2009 |
Honestly I just don't know what to say anymore. It's just pathetic. It's one thing to be a booster of the city, far and away another thing completely to blindly accept the status quo in Detroit. I agree with the posts above that know full well what is required to retain Cobo, retain conventions, build up the Downtown businesses that depend on drawing a DIVERSE crowd to enjoy what Detroit has to offer. To do otherwise, to allow Cobo to crumble to dust like so many other institutions, is outright criminal. I'd hope that some solution can be reached to, at the very least, pacify the council to approve this deal until such time that clearer and saner heads of state can be found to take their place. | ||
Jasoncw Member Username: Jasoncw Post Number: 514 Registered: 07-2005 |
"But how can anyone say it is not worth a thin dime when it still generates almost 600 million dollars in economic benefit a year?" It only does that because of the Auto Show, and the Auto Show has been saying for a while now that Cobo sucks and they'll leave if it's not improved. | ||
Novine Member Username: Novine Post Number: 1174 Registered: 07-2007 |
I'm not a big Paul W. Smith fan but I thought he made an excellent point in discussing the Auto Show today. The Auto Show is Cobo's (and by extension, the City of Detroit) biggest customer. When your biggest customer says "we need you to do this to keep us here", is your response to treat them the way the Detroit City Council has treated them? | ||
Bongman Member Username: Bongman Post Number: 698 Registered: 12-2003 |
I think the current state of Cobo would compare to the way outsiders viewed the old terminals at Metro Airport. They too were once considered cutting edge facilities when they first opened, but later became an embarrassment to the Metro Detroit area. The out-dated facilities at Cobo have now become the same type of embarrassment to our area. The Trade show business is always on the cutting edge of technology used for presentations and such, and most facilities feel the need to constantly upgrade that aspect of their operation to keep their clients happy. The cleaning contracts at Cobo have been a sweetheart deal for years. Cars and trips are bought, donations are made. Donate a car to the perpetual mission, and you feed the family kitty. 'nuff said. | ||
Locke09 Member Username: Locke09 Post Number: 23 Registered: 02-2009 |
The biggest piece of misinformation is that the Detroit City Council does not want Cobo expanded. That is not true. The City Council just does not like the terms of the current deal. They believe it does not protect Detroit's financial interests enough. They are doing no more than what the suburban officals have done - hold out for a deal that you believe protects your constituents' financial interests. I don't agree with everything the Council is holding out for. But I have looked at the legislation and I can see problems. I can also see potential solutions. Another piece of misinformation is that some other community has sufficient funding to expand and upgrade Cobo. But the legislation proposes using the same tax money that is currently used for Cobo. And a large portion of that tax money is generated by Detroit. The funding model is not innovative at all, it is status quo. By all means establish an authority that respects the investment of the surrounding counties, but respect Detroit's investment as well. BTW, the current proposal does very little "expansion". Oh yes, I doubt the NAIAS cares much about Michigan politics. They just want an improved and expanded Cobo. This region is just trying to convince everyone that it can only happen via this deal. | ||
Hooha Member Username: Hooha Post Number: 134 Registered: 06-2005 |
"But how can anyone say it is not worth a thin dime when it still generates almost 600 million dollars in economic benefit a year?" Doesn't everybody keep saying NAIAS is worth 500 million in economic benefit? So if we lose the auto show (who wants an updated Cobo) we lose 83% of Cobo's economic impact? Doesn't that demonstrate how urgent the need to renovate Cobo is? | ||
Novine Member Username: Novine Post Number: 1175 Registered: 07-2007 |
"The City Council just does not like the terms of the current deal. They believe it does not protect Detroit's financial interests enough." What would those financial interests be? The city's losing money each year on Cobo, in case you haven't noticed. "Another piece of misinformation is that some other community has sufficient funding to expand and upgrade Cobo." I don't think anyone who knows the true costs of such a facility has been saying that. Could financing be put together to build an alternative to Cobo? Maybe so but I think it would be foolish and wasteful. "And a large portion of that tax money is generated by Detroit." Please quit repeating this statement when it's not backed up by the facts. I've linked to this before: http://www.ci.detroit.mi.us/Le gislative/CouncilDivisions/Fis calAnalysis/Reports/State%20Co nvention%20Facility%20Develop% 20Act%207-18-07.pdf | ||
Locke09 Member Username: Locke09 Post Number: 28 Registered: 02-2009 |
Locke09 said, quote: Novine said, quote: I'm not going to quit telling the truth. That's the problem in this region. I am pretty good at analyzing data, especially numbers. That is why I am more interested in raw data than people's opinions. The very link you keep referring to says on the very first page of the document that of the $357.3 million in hotel and liquor tax that went to Cobo from 1986-2005, $124.4 million or 34% came from Detroit. I would say 1/3 from 1 city alone is a large portion, especially when you consider that the other 2/3 was split among 3 whole counties. 1 little poor city produced 1/3. 3 big wealthy counties together produced 2/3. That was then. I really want to see how much hotel/liquor tax Detroit generates now, now that we have more hotels than we did when the tax first started being used for Cobo. (I could be wrong about that one. Please feel free to correct me and point me to the data.) Even if you look at all of the hotel/liquor tax generated during that same period, you will see that Detroit holds its own against the 2 larger counties. Plus, the three counties all got a portion of their hotel/liquor tax money back. All of Detroit's tax has gone to Cobo. Look at the data. Detroit gave 124 million and the 3 counties gave 232 (220 in hotel tax plus 12 in liquor tax). But the 3 counties plus Detroit collected a total of $511,196,988 in that period. Cobo received $357,354,391 and $76,921,315 was distributed back to the 3 counties. That totals $434,275,706. Where did the other $76,921,282 go? Perhaps to the outstate counties who received more than they collected, per the link you keep referring to. They collected $235,592,366 and received $310,440,078. Is anyone up in arms about that??? | ||
Locke09 Member Username: Locke09 Post Number: 29 Registered: 02-2009 |
quote: Glad you asked. Since David Sowerby's report shows that Detroit and Wayne County together provide 80% of the funding for Cobo, the two entities together have 80% interest in the $600 million economic benefit of Cobo. Right now, they only reap 60% of the benefit together. That's close, I'm not arguing about the 20% extra Oakland and Macomb realize now, just making a point that the financial interests are far beyond what extra Cobo costs the City per year. And once again, few people are saying throw the whole deal out. Just saying respect the fact that Detroit is and always will be making a significant financial investment in Cobo, via taxes and parking revenue, if nothing else. | ||
Novine Member Username: Novine Post Number: 1177 Registered: 07-2007 |
I would say that you and I have different definitions of "a large portion". I don't think of 1/3 of anything as "a large portion". But in any case, it doesn't change the facts that Detroit is by far the biggest beneficiary of the hotel and liquor taxes. Detroit received $233 million more than Detroit businesses paid in. In comparison, Oakland County businesses got back $146 million less than what they paid in. As for the amounts, those are through 2005. How much change do you really think there has been in last 4 years? I would suspect that the number of new hotel rooms in Oakland County has exceeded the number in Detroit. "Is anyone up in arms about that???" Being in Oakland County, I might be. I don't see how anyone in Detroit could complain when they've pulled in over $200 million more than they collected. | ||
Detroitbill Member Username: Detroitbill Post Number: 691 Registered: 09-2006 |
No one in the whole area should be complaining about Oakland county gets/pays this, Wayne county gets/pays this etc.. That is the major problem with the mind set here, Its always self turf generated.. Ofcourse your going to see that in any political arena but the fact of this whole spectacle is the WHOLE metropolitan area is enhanced when you build/improve major convention facilities.. There are many positive intangibles that one can not even measure accurately.. Look at these own comments earlier.. People talk about how great Chicago/Indianapolis is etc.. Whether you live in Detroit or any county/suburb in the area,, you still are associated by your city to outsiders. Now if we could just get certain powers that be to appreciate that fact we would be on a good track. | ||
Thames Member Username: Thames Post Number: 408 Registered: 02-2007 |
I don't understand why Cobo is in such a state of disrepair. Why hasn't the building been maintained? Who is responsible for its upkeep? | ||
Novine Member Username: Novine Post Number: 1179 Registered: 07-2007 |
"No one in the whole area should be complaining about Oakland county gets/pays this" Agreed and I'm not of the mind-set of some Oakland County residents that we should get ours and forget Detroit. But I don't understand the attitude of someone like Locke09 who says that Detroit's not getting a fair shake when Detroit has taken in $200 million more in money from these taxes than they have paid in. It's like Bobby Jindal complaining about federal spending while billions of federal dollars pour in Louisiana for Katrina relief. At some point, the demand for more is going to make the people giving more question how much more they should give. | ||
Locke09 Member Username: Locke09 Post Number: 31 Registered: 02-2009 |
Novine, I've never disputed that Detroit gets more back in hotel/liquor taxes than it collects. I've just noted that others do as well, and wondered why there didn't seem to be the same sentiment towards them as there is towards Detroit. And when I say Detroit puts in more proportionately than it gets back, I am including the $3 million in parking revenue and $11-15 million annually in subsidy that Detroit has provided. Add this all up over that same 20-year period. And I bring it all up only in response to others making it seem as if Detroit's contribution is insignificant. Other than that, I've asserted that the 5 member board should be a 7 member board. Actually, Ficano proposed as much last year. This was changed to a 5 member board with everyone having veto power at the last minute. | ||
Detroit313 Member Username: Detroit313 Post Number: 789 Registered: 02-2006 |
I can't believe what I'm reading! Cobo a jewel? WTF! Have you seen Jacob Javits, Or Mccormick? Cobo is in terrible shape, ran by greedy politicans who couldn't balance their own checkbbok let alone city finances! Detroit needs a regional authority, not just for Cobo, but for transportation as well. Use the $30 million to off set the deficit or reopen the aquarim. I miss Dennis Archer! <313> | ||
Novine Member Username: Novine Post Number: 1181 Registered: 07-2007 |
"I've just noted that others do as well, and wondered why there didn't seem to be the same sentiment towards them as there is towards Detroit." If you do the math, the out-state counties (80) have gotten less than a million dollars more than they put in over a 20 year period. How does that compare to Detroit's over $200 million? "And when I say Detroit puts in more proportionately than it gets back, I am including the $3 million in parking revenue and $11-15 million annually in subsidy that Detroit has provided." Let's back up here. Oakland, Wayne and to a lesser degree, Macomb Counties have contributed hundreds of millions of dollars towards the cost of paying for Cobo Hall. During that time period, they had zero representation or say in the operation of Cobo. All of that money left the suburbs to go to Detroit. In return, the suburbs gained some benefit from the Auto Show and other events at Cobo. For 20 years, Detroit had no problem taking the money from the suburbs while giving the suburbs zero say in how things were run at Cobo. Now that Cobo is a physical and financial mess, the suburbs are stepping up and saying "no more money until we get more of say". Detroit's response is "this isn't fair!" Can you tell me that how things worked for the past 20 years was fair? I could understand if Detroit residents cried foul when something they paid for was being turned over to a regional authority. But in this case, the suburbs have contributed significantly to Cobo for the past 20 years, to the tune of over $200 million to Detroit's direct benefit. I'm having a hard time seeing the unfairness of the proposal to Detroit. | ||
Detroit313 Member Username: Detroit313 Post Number: 790 Registered: 02-2006 |
^^^So true^^^ <313> |
