 
Cheddar_bob
Member
Username: Cheddar_bob
Post Number: 1443
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 29, 2007 - 4:40 pm: |    |
What better time time to start talking about the 2008 Tigers than October 2007? Anyway, the Tigers give up Jurrjens and Gorkys Hernandez for Edgar Renteria who has been around for 12 seasons. Too much sacrifice of the future for an aging SS (although he had the third highest BA in the NL this year)? |
Bobj
Member
Username: Bobj
Post Number: 2663
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 29, 2007 - 4:54 pm: | |
Seems like a lot to give up, maybe they are getting into the "win now" mentality with the age of some of the position players. |
Ravine
Member
Username: Ravine
Post Number: 1515
Registered: 01-2006
| | Posted on Monday, October 29, 2007 - 4:58 pm: | |
OH CHEDDAR_BOB I did NOT see THIS one coming... I need time to digest this one, since I am loathe to fire from the hip about my favorite sport... My first reaction is that it IS too much to give up for a guy who is getting near the ass-end of his career BUT Renteria IS a really good player who is NEAR that ass-end, but not AT it... I guess I thought that Jurrjens and Hernandez were highly-rated enough that the Tigers would only surrender BOTH of them at ONCE if the return was a good bit higher, but that makes it sound like I'm low-rating Renteria, which I'm not... Oh SHIT this move has me reeling |
Emu_steve
Member
Username: Emu_steve
Post Number: 490
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Monday, October 29, 2007 - 5:58 pm: | |
I'm not against the trade (unless someone tells me that A-Rod would go to a non-big market team with fences not to his liking) but this does deplete the Tigs farm system.
There are a few top prospects remaining but a lot have been dealt in the last year or 18 months.
Are the Tigs getting to be like the old NYY? Need a player to make the playoffs - trade top prospects. (Brian Cashmen is now doing the opposite for the Yanks these days). |
Emu_steve
Member
Username: Emu_steve
Post Number: 491
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Monday, October 29, 2007 - 6:26 pm: | |
Maybe Dombrowski feels if the Tigs can get lucky with Andrew Miller and Rick Porcello that he can afford to give up pitching prospects.
BTW, DETNEWS' Lynn Henning had an article on Tig' targets for '08.
He had Renteria at 50 - 50
and Jenkins (Brewers) at 75%.
With a SS (in the bag) and a LF possible (who bats left), that would probably wrap up the off season for Dombrowski. |
Focusonthed
Member
Username: Focusonthed
Post Number: 1410
Registered: 02-2006
| | Posted on Monday, October 29, 2007 - 8:22 pm: | |
I don't like it. I saw it on the Chicago media this evening, and they said "for prospects." I thought, "awesome!" Then I saw on the MNF ticker that it was for Hernandez and Jurrjens. I don't know much about Hernandez, but I thought Jurrjens was worth keeping. Is Ramon Santiago THAT deficient? I can understand Hernandez, since Ordonez, Granderson, and Maybin have the OF future sewn up...but I'm just curious about the pitching situation, since Rogers (if he's back at all) is probably only good for 1 more year, Robertson is hit or miss...I mean, you've got Verlander, Bonderman, and Robertson--that's it. Miller, we hope he remembers how to throw off-speed stuff. Rogers, maybe. Durbin for a full season? Guess they're hoping that they can platoon the #5 spot for a year, and then bring in Porcello?
I guess I'm just nervous. Glad to get Renteria, just hoping that giving up a solid young pitcher isn't too much. |
Chitaku
Member
Username: Chitaku
Post Number: 1679
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Monday, October 29, 2007 - 8:43 pm: | |
man jurrjens was my tiger |
Smogboy
Member
Username: Smogboy
Post Number: 6229
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Monday, October 29, 2007 - 8:44 pm: | |
I'm still trying to get my hands around this deal myself. My gut reaction is we gave up too much for him but we shall see. |
Zxzm
Member
Username: Zxzm
Post Number: 36
Registered: 10-2007
| | Posted on Monday, October 29, 2007 - 9:44 pm: | |
Hernandez didn't fit, w/ Granderson and Maybin, the Tigers are set at CF. Jurrjens is the wild card in the matter.
You guys are low balling Renteria. He's only 32 and hit around .320 last year (in fact, he's about a .290 career hitter), has legit speed, and is a former gold glove winner (I think). This team is built to win now, and this move helps them. |
Rjk
Member
Username: Rjk
Post Number: 920
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 29, 2007 - 10:19 pm: | |
I like the trade. The Tigers dealt from their strengths (Pitching and outfield) and get a very good player in return.
My one gripe about many of these S. American players is that I wish they'd take some English lessons. I heard Renteria on the radio today and I could barely understand him. It's not like he just arrived in this country yesterday, he's started playing MLB in 1996. Pudge, Ordonez, and few others are the same way. An interview with these guys is pretty much pointless. |
Chitaku
Member
Username: Chitaku
Post Number: 1680
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Monday, October 29, 2007 - 10:46 pm: | |
after looking up renteria's stats i feel a little better. I did like jurrjens though he was impressive |
Cheddar_bob
Member
Username: Cheddar_bob
Post Number: 1448
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 29, 2007 - 11:01 pm: | |
They can speak Yiddish for all I care. As long as they can play. |
Smogboy
Member
Username: Smogboy
Post Number: 6233
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Monday, October 29, 2007 - 11:33 pm: | |
I'm inclined to agree with Bob here about their language skills. We want them here for their bat, glove & footspeed!
And I've also known people here for over 20 years from a foreign country and they still can't shake remnants of an accent. It's not like I'd hold it against them if they can deliver us a pennant! |
Mackinaw
Member
Username: Mackinaw
Post Number: 3879
Registered: 02-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 30, 2007 - 1:50 am: | |
I'm happy about it. I was looking forward to watching Jurrjens as a Tiger, but getting Renteria is worth it. |
Rjk
Member
Username: Rjk
Post Number: 922
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 30, 2007 - 4:40 am: | |
Actually I think Granderson was saying he was taking Spanish lessons so he could better communicate with the Latin American players. I don't know if they were classes or if he's learning from tape, but at least he is putting in some effort.
It's the same thing with the Wings, but probably worse. The Tigers at least have very good players who speak English. It seems to me that the best Wing players for the most part speak a foreign language. I'm at best a casual hockey fan, I follow it hardly at all. If these players had a better grasp of English they could better promote hockey and the Wings. |
Ravine
Member
Username: Ravine
Post Number: 1520
Registered: 01-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 30, 2007 - 5:13 pm: | |
After thinking about it, I'm O.K. with the trade. I'm not giddy about it, because Renteria is no younger than Guillen (Renteria is one month older,) so I figure that one significant injury to the knee, or ankle, will likely make him no more mobile afield than is Guillen. Still, that is looking for a dark cloud, which is unnecessary.
I am still surprised that the Tigers gave up Jurrjens AND Hernandez, but I'm not going to whine about it. There is a big, big difference between "highly rated prospect" and "very good major league player." Guys who were the former fail to grow into the latter, ALL THE TIME. Juan Encarnacion was dazzling, in the minor leagues. So was Phil Hiatt, in fact. Encarnacion turned out to be a B-minus major leaguer (and I'm being charitable,) and Hiatt turned out to be nothing at all. Years later, we may gnash our teeth about giving up Jurrjens or Hernandez (or both,) but a good question, with the Tigers currently still being in front of "a window of opportunity," is, Was either one of them truly ready to help us to win NOW? A couple of good games from Jurrjens, in the middle of the season and against opponents who had never seen him before, means just slightly more than NOTHING. Renteria, on the other hand, is absolutely a proven major-league talent, good in the field AND at the plate, and is definitely able to help us IMMEDIATELY.
This gives us yet another guy with a .290 (or better) career B.A., for a total of SIX guys with such. The fun question, now, is What will the batting order be?
The other question is Will we pick up an everyday left-fielder, maybe even a left-handed one, and if so, where will he be in the order? The word is that DD is "not high on" free-agent, left-handed, left-fielder Geoff Jenkins. Neither am I, but it ain't a bad idea, if the price is reasonable (which it probably isn't.) That would be another case of the Tigers picking up a guy who is, well, not exactly approaching the peak of his career.
How's this: Granderson CF, Polanco 2B, Sheffield DH, Ordonez RF, Guillen 1B, Renteria SS, Rodriguez C, with Inge 3B and the Mystery LF filling the last two spots, in whatever order is appropriate. |
Mackinaw
Member
Username: Mackinaw
Post Number: 3885
Registered: 02-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 30, 2007 - 6:36 pm: | |
Bring back Monroe. |
Smogboy
Member
Username: Smogboy
Post Number: 6247
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 30, 2007 - 7:20 pm: | |
If Marcus Thames can swing a consistent bat I'd say he could be that mystery LF prospect that we have in the line up. And if he's inconsistent and we don't get a left handed help there, it could end up being the Timo Perez show there in that spot.
I have faith in Dombrowski though. I don't think he's done tinkering. He knows he's got some surplus that HE has stocked up over the years. Just look at our pitching staff that's already in the Bigs- Verlander & Bonderman, all under the age of 25. Miller & Porcello are also coming up. While we were treated to a glimpse of Jurrjens- we can't be afraid to deal him away to get an every day player the likes of Renteria. |
Ravine
Member
Username: Ravine
Post Number: 1521
Registered: 01-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 30, 2007 - 7:21 pm: | |
Mackinaw: To do what, create a huge hole in the batting order, and look increasingly terrible trying to one-swing his way out of a never-ending slump?
Or, we could bring back Dmitri Young (and his stupid do-rag,) to shoot meaningless singles all over the place.
Sorry. Maybe I should have just said, "I disagree with you."
(Message edited by ravine on October 30, 2007) |
Smogboy
Member
Username: Smogboy
Post Number: 6248
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 30, 2007 - 7:31 pm: | |
I wholeheartedly disagree with the bringing back of Craig Monroe too. While I liked some of his heroics for us, there is NO WAY I can recommend getting him back here. He ended up hitting a pathetic .219 to end the season. In this potent of a line-up, he'd almost be a joke. We tolerate the likes of a Brandon Inge in the line-up because he still provides us with stellar defense at third but there has to be a better upside to Craig Monroe before I would even consider having him back here.
Now if we got him back and had him prove something in Toledo, it'd be a different matter. But now? With this upcoming line-up? And the opportunity we have to win?
No way do we bring back Craig Monroe to sport the old English D just yet. |
Ravine
Member
Username: Ravine
Post Number: 1522
Registered: 01-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 30, 2007 - 9:19 pm: | |
I guess what I'm saying is that we don't really know how much we gave up. Gorkys Hernandez may be as fast as The Flash, and that is a plus for a centerfielder, but for all we know, he may never be able to consistently hit major-league pitching, and we would have another Brian Hunter, who could have been a helluva base-stealer if he could only get his ass to First Base. Jurrjens showed great poise, and looked to have some good pitches, but the real test, for a pitcher, is trying to get guys out after they have seen you a few times. We did not see that test, nor do we know if his arm will hold up, over time.
Renteria does not excite me, but he is proven.
What it breaks down to is that I believe an "Is" is certainly worth two "Might Be's." The nagging part, for me, is that I'm unsure just how much of an "Is" Renteria will be, for us. I realize that Guillen has had injuries which have effected his mobility, but I can't help thinking about the fact that we just moved a 32-year-old guy to 1B and replaced him, at SS, with a 32-year-old.
I've been thinking, more, about the LF situation. Signing Jenkins wouldn't be a bad thing, but I think we should keep that money in our pocket, and play Thames and Perez out there until some better plan presents itself. I know that Thames is not an All-Star, but he has power that is almost scary (some of his homers even SOUND great,) and he has done a lot for this team, over the last few seasons, even while having a less-than-full-time role.
The thing that slays me is how folks call in to radio shows and moan about how much we gave up, when the truth is that they have never even SEEN the player about whom they speak. When we sent Humberto Sanchez to the Yankees, people whined about that because they heard talk-show hosts, and newspaper columnists, raving about what a hot prospect Sanchez was. I am absolutely certain that 98% of the callers had no idea about whether Sanchez was a righty or lefty, much less about anything more pertinent. |
Emu_steve
Member
Username: Emu_steve
Post Number: 492
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 31, 2007 - 3:26 am: | |
My thinking is that Jurrjens is the big loss. He did show some MLB promise, especially against CLE in August.
Jurrjens just might have been a valuable part of the '08 rotation.
Pitching will be the concern in '08. Miller and MiLB Dallas Trahern are it for the new kid P (Porcello won't be ready for years).
As Lynn Henning, and others, have pointed out, Hernandez plays the same position as Granderson and Maybin.
He had to be trade bait - can't play 3 CFs just like Renteria was trade bait as ATL has another SS. |
Smogboy
Member
Username: Smogboy
Post Number: 6255
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 31, 2007 - 3:58 am: | |
I'm not so sure just how big of a loss Jurrjens is going to be. Yes, we were treated to some stellar performances by that young man last year but was he even heard of prior to? Not meaning to slam him in any way shape or form but he wasn't exactly named in the same breath as some of the other prospects we had in the minors like Sanchez, Miller, Trahern & even Porcello.
Was Jurrjens' performances splashes in the pan or was it the genesis to a Smoltz like career? We will wait & see I guess, but the Renteria trade does speak of an immediacy to win now with some of the crew we have now. Pudge, Magglio, Sheffield, Rogers (if he signs) and Jones (another if) won't be around long. The organization might want to tap them out now.
That's not to say we still don't have a solid future with solid young arms, but we've got some pretty nice pieces in the mix already. I'm still digging the line-up Ravine posted earlier; that's about as potent as any in MLB! |
Zephyrprocess
Member
Username: Zephyrprocess
Post Number: 517
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 31, 2007 - 7:20 am: | |
quote:Jurrjens showed great poise, and looked to have some good pitches, but the real test, for a pitcher, is trying to get guys out after they have seen you a few times. We did not see that test... Actually, that was one of the intriguing things about Jurrjens--his consecutive impressive outings against the Indians, who hit only .140 against him.
quote:...nor do we know if his arm will hold up, over time. And he is yet-another-member-of-the-2007 -pitching-staff-who-spent-time -on-the-DL |
Emu_steve
Member
Username: Emu_steve
Post Number: 493
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 31, 2007 - 11:44 am: | |
I think Jurrjens had an unbelievable walks:strikeout ratio before being called up.
His MiLB stint, I believe Erie, was a real eye opener.
I believe that in say July Dallas Trahern might have been more highly regarded (and certainly Miller was considered a star in the making) then Jurrjens but Jurrjens had a great August.
Trahern is the only top notch MiLB prospect ready to join the Tigs in '08 (but counting Bonderman, Verlander, Miller, etc. we have a lot of young but very good pitchers on the Tigs' MLB roster - our young studs are on the Tigs roster, not in the MiLB rosters like Erie or Toledo). |
Smogboy
Member
Username: Smogboy
Post Number: 6261
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 31, 2007 - 11:53 am: | |
Praise being heaped on Jurrgens notwithstanding, like they always say... you've got to give up something in order to get something.
It's nice to know we've at least got something in our "cupboard" to trade off as opposed to years where we were bare thin and couldn't do much, even if we wanted to. Dombrowski's stockpiling is starting to pay off now. |
Emu_steve
Member
Username: Emu_steve
Post Number: 494
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 31, 2007 - 2:44 pm: | |
Agree, Smogboy, that Renteria is a proven quantity.
Jurrjens is still potential. |
Ravine
Member
Username: Ravine
Post Number: 1524
Registered: 01-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 31, 2007 - 7:52 pm: | |
Cripes!! I am embarrassed by the fact that, when offering my suggestion for the LF situation, I completely forgot about Ryan Raburn. That makes three guys who can fight for the job. The competition won't hurt any of them.
By the way... Dallas Trahern? On what basis-- other than hearsay-- is he thought of so highly? Doest thy homework, gang!! |
Smogboy
Member
Username: Smogboy
Post Number: 6273
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 31, 2007 - 10:51 pm: | |
Not that I want it rushed, but Ravine... you forgot that Cameron Maybin is still in the wings as well to play left! Or who knows? Maybe Granderson moves over and Maybin gets center. Some nice options to have in the OF at least. |
Ravine
Member
Username: Ravine
Post Number: 1531
Registered: 01-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, November 01, 2007 - 4:48 am: | |
After what I saw, this season, of Maybin-- playing a different position, I realize-- I have no interest in seeing him before September, if then. |
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