 
Eastside61
Member
Username: Eastside61
Post Number: 1548
Registered: 07-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, June 01, 2008 - 8:16 pm: |    |
Eastside by-laws: If you totally hate someone or something it "ok" to remember it for over 50+ years.... for some reason I have never been able to shake her first name ... so I must have totally hated that bitch.... Gb has SE 59 and I guess I have Evelyn Fruend 416 ...
The sad part was that she collected a check every month ... |
Goblue
Member
Username: Goblue
Post Number: 1854
Registered: 03-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, June 01, 2008 - 11:10 pm: | |
ES: You're right...it is all but unforgivable that the DPS administration tolerated such incompentancy...Fruend, Hammond, Diekoff, Rice...and God knows how many others. I guarantee you that I went after those kind...most of the time I won...even if it meant buying their contract...anything to get them away from kids. On the other hand there was a teacher by the name of Nina Jason...a jewel who was there in the fourth grade when I needed her. |
Eastside61
Member
Username: Eastside61
Post Number: 1553
Registered: 07-2006
| | Posted on Monday, June 02, 2008 - 12:19 am: | |
GB: Nina ???? Jason ??? Tell us more •••• Fox? Did she go the bar after the PTA meetings ? Where is she now? Confess Father "B" |
Goblue
Member
Username: Goblue
Post Number: 1858
Registered: 03-2007
| | Posted on Monday, June 02, 2008 - 11:25 am: | |
ES: No confession...Ms. Jason was a great fourth grade teacher...she had dark hair, olive skin, tall...was attractive...not a great class control specialist but she cared...never failed to put her hand on my shoulder when she walked up and down the row during a year that was a tough one for me because of home problems. The guy who was teaching the fifth grade in the next room had a real thing for her...he spent a whole lot of time in our room chatting with her. I have no idea where she might be now...I think she was at Columbus for only a couple years...so she was likely gone by the time you got to the fourth grade when you were thirteen. |
Eastside61
Member
Username: Eastside61
Post Number: 1558
Registered: 07-2006
| | Posted on Monday, June 02, 2008 - 2:55 pm: | |
Gb: be nice now ... I was 15 when 4th grade finally came around. I am sorry that Ms. Jason was not part of the Columbus experience for me ... I think that I had Ms. Petty in fourth ... not quite sure .... For me it was 7th that I did have some issues as I missed the first 13 weeks of school.... but CHE and MEE came through for me when they were talking the "R" word.... retention and CHE stated the big NO .... going to bat for your children has stuck with me ever since ... |
Goblue
Member
Username: Goblue
Post Number: 1861
Registered: 03-2007
| | Posted on Monday, June 02, 2008 - 3:39 pm: | |
ES: Wow! It sounds like your 7th grade experience was akin to mine in the 9th...gotta hand it to your folks. Care to say what happened? |
Olddetroiter
Member
Username: Olddetroiter
Post Number: 372
Registered: 04-2008
| | Posted on Monday, June 02, 2008 - 4:04 pm: | |
I don’t remember Ms. Jason. I think GB invented the ideal teacher to compensate for the real Columbus teachers… Fruend, Petty, Monson. However, I still was half a grade behind GB at that time so I could be wrong. I might have been suffering under Petty while GB was living the good life with Ms. Jason.
Funny how meanings can vary… ES… R = retention… GB… R = removal, or maybe reform school. |
Eastside61
Member
Username: Eastside61
Post Number: 1561
Registered: 07-2006
| | Posted on Monday, June 02, 2008 - 7:30 pm: | |
OD: Remember that GB was expelled from Columbus for arming about a third of the student body to SHOOT their Whammo's at Ms Petty .... Maybe Ms. Jason actually taught at Robinson where GB had to spend his year away from Columbus -
OD: Monson was actually E Fruend's sister and another total bitch who's total program was to psychologically damage EVERY child who came into their rooms.
Both: In Sept of 7th grade I was diagnosed with Infectious Hepatitis and could not attend school so work (little that was given) was sent home ... No home schooling teachers like they have now ... But the "R" word started to surface in Jan after I returned but Charles put a stop to that nonsense about a month later ... My 7th grade Homeroom teacher was a guy named Munro ... who was trying to hump the fox who taught across the hall ... I think that her name was something like Ms. Stephanie ... |
Goblue
Member
Username: Goblue
Post Number: 1866
Registered: 03-2007
| | Posted on Monday, June 02, 2008 - 7:32 pm: | |
OD: No good deed goes unpunished...so you got Ms. Petty and I got the lovely and caring Ms. Jason...what can I say? I have pictures of her...I can prove her existence.
No...I was a good boy at Columbus but I will confess to a few suspensions at Denby...it wasn't my fault that I could think faster than they could. |
Eastside61
Member
Username: Eastside61
Post Number: 1565
Registered: 07-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 03, 2008 - 2:57 pm: | |
GB: So that R & B song during the 50's by the Cadillac's singing about "SPEEDOO" really was the story about you...
Lets all sing - They often call me speedoo but my real name is GB ... Rock on Boys.... |
Goblue
Member
Username: Goblue
Post Number: 1871
Registered: 03-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 03, 2008 - 3:08 pm: | |
ES: "They wuz always pickin' on me!" Hammond, Diekoff, etc., etc., etc...I'll always remember MT's remark when we were leaving the building after he had to take part of a day off work to get me back in after a suspension. "You were right...but you gotta learn to keep that GD mouth shut and to suffer fools." I'm still tryin' to learn. It was during that time that I developed a passion for destroying public secondary education as we knew it. I didn't have much luck...it is likely the most entrenched bureaucracy in our society.
If Rip Van Winkle woke up today the only institution he would recognize is a school...and...I guess...a church. Not sure what to think about that. |
Eastside61
Member
Username: Eastside61
Post Number: 1572
Registered: 07-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 04, 2008 - 12:27 am: | |
GB: "There is Still Time ... " Neville Shute On the Beach. As for me I have stuck with some of Neville's thoughts and once in a while I just fire up my IPod and listen to the Miles Davis song of '59..... ..... SO WHAT •••• and then I feel all better ....Ooooops There is the Look of Love ( Chris Botti / Paula Cole) and Rescue Me (Fontella Bass) and there is .... later.....
(Message edited by Eastside61 on June 04, 2008) |
Olddetroiter
Member
Username: Olddetroiter
Post Number: 377
Registered: 04-2008
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 04, 2008 - 10:34 am: | |
GB,ES: You really have to feel for the kids stuck in many of the inner city school systems. In Detroit it seems to be a combination of lack of funds and corruption/bureaucracy in the administration. Even with state revenue sharing assistance it seems little of the money actually gets to the students. In 2003 a local millionaire offered $200 million to build fifteen charter schools in Detroit. The teachers took a day off to go to Lansing and protest against the offer 'for the good of the students'. They got their way, and the offer was declined.
I'm not saying charter schools are always better than public schools, and I'm not disparaging the dedicated public school teachers. But at least the charters give the parents a choice. Granted, loss of students to the charter schools would force closure of even even more public schools. But if they can't (or won't) offer a competitive product maybe they should close.
Well, these comments should stir up the board some. Maybe 7K might even want to chime in. |
Goblue
Member
Username: Goblue
Post Number: 1881
Registered: 03-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 04, 2008 - 7:50 pm: | |
OD: I agree with you. That stance did not endear me to my colleagues. My understanding of the MI Charter School program is that it is reasonably well regulated. That is not the case here in AZ where it is virtually unregulated and the perfect setting for every hustler looking to make a buck...including at least one who started out in MI.
The real issue is in creating a level playing field. Teachers in MI have the power of tenure, collective bargaining, and the courts. Charter schools don't have to worry about those kinds of little details. I don't know about the required credentials for charter school teachers in MI so I can't comment...here in AZ they are non-existant. Obviously, public school teachers have to have a license in MI.
Tenure is ridiculous. It came about in the early 60's in the public schools because of abuses by boards of education. When I started in the business a teacher could be fired for any reason at all...a man wearing his hair too long...a woman being seen dancing in a bar...boards caused the perceived need for tenure. The protections of the courts plus collective bargaining have taken that need away. Multi-year contracts would provide teachers with all of the protections they need today.
I would have welcomed the competition. The virtual monopoly of public education has brought about much...but not all...of the current state of affairs. But, in order to meet it I would have needed the authority to build my own team...in my last position even the assistant supts. that I inherited had tenure in position...both were incompetent and belonged to the union...there was nothing I could do to get rid of them.
Give me the authority to hire my own administrative team, building principals and teachers and I guarantee you that I can develop a competitive world class school program...or you don't pay me. |
Olddetroiter
Member
Username: Olddetroiter
Post Number: 382
Registered: 04-2008
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 04, 2008 - 11:54 pm: | |
GB: I’m really not knowledgeable on regulation or teacher certification requirements for the MI charter schools. But it seems to me the bottom line is the percentage of students who graduate and the quality of the education they receive. These can be measured and published. Any parents who care about their children should pull them out of the low performing schools, whether charter or public, and enroll them in the better schools. I realize not all public school teachers are deadwood. Some good, conscientious public school teachers could lose their jobs if their schools were to close. But they just might be the kind of people the charter schools would be looking to hire. |
Goblue
Member
Username: Goblue
Post Number: 1890
Registered: 03-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, June 05, 2008 - 12:13 am: | |
OD: The real problem is measuring the quality of education...the variables involved are many...and complex. The process of evaluation is far more complicated than The Spinal Cord with Ears (but no brain) in the White House would suggest with his so-call school improvement plan. Trying to use a two-dimensional paper and pencil test to assess a three dimension process just doesn't work. That being said...I am not necessarily opposed to achievement testing...actually MI has a fairly good program...or at least used to...I don't know anything about it anymore. At one point I was the director of research/evaluation for the AA schools...but I'm long removed from those aspects of the business. All I've saying is that trying to assess/evaluate a school based on achievement test data is way, way too simplistic. |
Eastside61
Member
Username: Eastside61
Post Number: 1583
Registered: 07-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, June 05, 2008 - 1:00 am: | |
OD/Gb: I have already reserved a limo for next spring (2009) prom night activities ... as for the state of education especially in the DPS I can only see that the whole system needs a low yield bomb and many of the insights stated by a true educator GB has spelled out. Let me say this to you GB - "Next time around it would be cool to have a chance to work together within a school district" I think we get it!••• |
Olddetroiter
Member
Username: Olddetroiter
Post Number: 385
Registered: 04-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, June 05, 2008 - 9:25 am: | |
GB: I agree measuring the quality of education is not easy, but somehow it needs to be done. Otherwise how can we know if we are spending our education dollars wisely or throwing them down a rat hole, and how can we know which schools are doing the better job of educating our youth? I can think of no other way than some type of testing. We can’t afford to wait 10-20 years to see how today’s crop of graduates do in the real world. Another generation of youth could be lost before we can act on the findings. I know some are of the opinion that testing should be discontinued because it does not provide a true measure of what students are learning. But I would submit testing in principle is not the issue; it’s how the tests are designed and implemented. People are tested in various forms throughout their lives, and it would be doing them a disservice not to get them used to it in school.
Now here is where I do a ‘cop out’ and leave it to the experts to determine the relevant and appropriate means of implementing the measures, because as you said, “The real problem is measuring the quality of education...the variables involved are many...and complex.” I’m not qualified to do it, but the people we pay to educate our children should be.
ES: Ain’t nobody gonna bomb the DPS schools. Too many vested interests. It would be nice if the school system could be fixed from within, but that ain’t gonna happen either. That’s why I have to (reluctantly) support the charter school concept. I think the only chance of anything good happening is if DPS faces total collapse from loss of customers and survival instinct forces the administration into positive action. |
Eastside61
Member
Username: Eastside61
Post Number: 1587
Registered: 07-2006
| | Posted on Friday, June 06, 2008 - 1:19 am: | |
OD: DPS are not run like schools in CA .... CA does not have similar problems except in parts of LA Public Schools and Oakland Public Schools. ... The State of California took over the Oakland public schools but they do not have the Urban Prairies that Detroit presents .... CA does have a Charter system that is both private and Public .... CA's problems for education surrounds issues about affordable housing for teachers in many of the high powered school districts and funding under two distinct systems. Then add the craziness that "No Child Left Behind" that was funded at a level described as zero money - nada - nothing. Special education funding that encroaches on the general fund on all school districts to a level of millions of dollars that is not funded to its fullest as prescribed by the law so it sucks zillions of dollars that could be used on various other things - and zero direction and/or interest from the Bush administration about meaningful education for this nation.....and the story goes on and on and on ....
Back to DPS: those prom pics tell the whole story about the direction on DPS .... don't rule out "Low yield" .... sorry!••• |
Olddetroiter
Member
Username: Olddetroiter
Post Number: 400
Registered: 04-2008
| | Posted on Friday, June 06, 2008 - 6:05 pm: | |
But CA is too crowded now.... Too many people.... Too many goats.... Too many goat people.... At least on the urban prairie nobody has to go hungry... so long as he likes rats on the barbie. |
Eastside61
Member
Username: Eastside61
Post Number: 1590
Registered: 07-2006
| | Posted on Friday, June 06, 2008 - 6:26 pm: | |
OD: Great menu choice ... We should BBQ some rats as part of the Jjaba tour when he decides to become an EASTSIDER .... |
Olddetroiter
Member
Username: Olddetroiter
Post Number: 404
Registered: 04-2008
| | Posted on Friday, June 06, 2008 - 11:21 pm: | |
ES: Maybe with cockroach and centipede sushi as appetizers? |
Eastside61
Member
Username: Eastside61
Post Number: 1593
Registered: 07-2006
| | Posted on Friday, June 06, 2008 - 11:28 pm: | |
OD: Maybe GB could bring some of that Tango sauce for the Jjaba tour .... Jjaba tries to always present himself as an international cultural guru ... so this will be a good experience for him and he can bond once again with DR. Bananahead Bronco Nursing School guy .... |
Goblue
Member
Username: Goblue
Post Number: 1903
Registered: 03-2007
| | Posted on Friday, June 06, 2008 - 11:43 pm: | |
ES/OD: WMU had no nursing school in the 60's...it was the Borgess or Bronson School of Nursing...three of us had an apartment just down the street from the Bronson Nurses dorm during our junior year...GAWD that was a good year! |
Eastside61
Member
Username: Eastside61
Post Number: 1601
Registered: 07-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, June 07, 2008 - 1:44 am: | |
GB: was that the nursing school that used Fisher -Price hospital kits ???? |
Olddetroiter
Member
Username: Olddetroiter
Post Number: 407
Registered: 04-2008
| | Posted on Saturday, June 07, 2008 - 10:05 am: | |
ES, GB: I'll bet that Tango sauce has quite a bite to it. You think Jjaba's up to it? |
Goblue
Member
Username: Goblue
Post Number: 1907
Registered: 03-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, June 07, 2008 - 11:31 am: | |
ES/OD: No on the hospital kit...but a couple of the student nurses provided invaluable tutoring assistance and were the real reason I aced that physiology course. |
Goblue
Member
Username: Goblue
Post Number: 1908
Registered: 03-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, June 07, 2008 - 12:09 pm: | |
OD: Been trying to find the time to write a quality reaction to your school eval post. I'll give it a shot now.
One of the major problems in getting schools to evaluate is that teachers and administrators are not trained to do it. At the most they get one course of Introduction to Research at the master's level...nothing is taught at the undergrad level. That problem is in addition to the paranoia throughout the profession regarding evaluation and research...to a large degree that is because they don't understand it...or understand how to use it.
Teachers are correct when they argue that its not possible to measure all that they do with a paper and pencil test. They argue that every one ends up "teaching to the test". I used to blunt that argument with the question..."What is on the test that you think kids don't need to learn...PLEASE...teach to the test!"
I snicker whenever I hear politicians or whoever start talking about every kid reading above grade level. The fact is, there is NO SUCH THING AS GRADE LEVEL! Grade level is nothing more than another term for a statistical mean. Forgive me if I'm underwriting you here...Grade level is determined by the bell curve...automatically 50% of the kids assessed MUST read below the mean...or grade level...that's how its determined. It works in Lake Woebegone...and perhaps a few other mythical places...but it ain't real...it is impossible for every kid to read at grade level...the tests separate the sheep from the goats (sorry ES)...period.
Within all of that...it is certainly possible to do a multi-factor analysis of school improvement. It is possible to do learning growth measures using pre and post testing of random populations to overcome the teachers arguments that too much time is spent on testing...it is all possible...its expensive...and professionals trained like ES and myself are needed to do the design and analysis...candidly, we don't come cheap...ES may BE cheap according to SH(Y)...but he don't come cheap professionally. Still, there are some really excellent companies and institutions who do that sort of thing...The National Center for Evaluation at WMU is an example.
To do this kind of assessment variables have to be controlled...e.g. teacher training, principal training is a big one, kid IQ another, parent support, teacher expectations, etc. It's complex...but it can be done. I was starting to do it in the early days when I was in charge of such stuff...hell, that was in the 70's...with today's software its a piece of cake. It can be done...it simply takes the will to do it...the vast majority of educational bureaucrats lack that will.
I couldn't agree more with you that it has to be done...one of the reasons I decided to retire when I did was that I was tired of fighting both the unions and the building principals on the evaluation question. Unions control school boards...school boards for the most part are made up of very minor community activists...Miss Mary who teaches first grade has far more emotional connection to a board member through their kid that a superintendent ever will...the whole process is politically fucked! I am convinced that competition is the only thing that will change it...in short...drive the inept clowns of DPS...and other such school districts out of business by taking away their customers. But...it has to be fair competition...runamuck charter schools are a con man's game...I know one making a whole hell of a lot of money doing it.
Enough I guess...sorry that I got a bit long about it...its a subject near to my heart. |
Eastside61
Member
Username: Eastside61
Post Number: 1602
Registered: 07-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, June 07, 2008 - 12:10 pm: | |
GB: Tutoring is one thing - What about hands on experience ? |
Goblue
Member
Username: Goblue
Post Number: 1910
Registered: 03-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, June 07, 2008 - 12:14 pm: | |
ES: It was all about hands on experience. If ya didn't get it right they made ya do it over again. |