 
Vetalalumni
Member
Username: Vetalalumni
Post Number: 1179
Registered: 05-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, October 16, 2008 - 9:29 am: |    |
Healthy critical dialogue lately in this thread as it has been much more comprehensive and with views supported. Coach Rod and the Wolverine leadership need appropriate time to manage the transitions, and deal with the immediate problems. Winning is the goal, and this season, priority has become how the Wolverines prepare theirselves to win in subsequent seasons. |
D_mcc
Member
Username: D_mcc
Post Number: 1401
Registered: 12-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, October 16, 2008 - 9:38 am: | |
Nicely done Jimbo...Now come back to the MSU thread so we can discuss OUR season |
El_jimbo
Member
Username: El_jimbo
Post Number: 815
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, October 16, 2008 - 10:04 am: | |
It will be interesting to see how Michigan progresses in the future. Next year, Michigan will have two freshman who have the athleticism at QB that RR is looking for and the offense should improve somewhat. However, as I've stated before, durability is a BIG issue.
Take Pat White for example. When healthy, he is one of the most dangerous players in college football. However, health is the big caveat. He can be knocked out of games if he takes the big hit and he has at key times been knocked out of games during his WVU career. White is only 6'1" 192 lbs. Which is on the smaller side for a QB. My question is that if White has trouble staying healthy against the Big East, what sort of health issues will Tate Forcier or Shavodrick Beaver have against the bigger, faster, harder hitting defenders of the Big Ten when they go 6'2" 179 lbs and 6'0" 184 lbs respectively?
With the size and athleticism of the Big Ten, in order to have an effective running QB he has to have the size to go along with his speed and quickness. Some prototype guys who combined the size and athleticism to field the position AND take the pounding of being a running QB would be guys like Terrell Pryor 6'6" 235 lbs, Juice Williams 6'2" 233 lbs, Drew Stanton, 6'3" 230 lbs, Troy Smith 6'1" 215 lbs, or Vince Young 6'5" 233 lbs.
The only true running Big Ten QB currently in the conference who lacks that size is Kellen Lewis at Indiana 6'1" 185 and he has shown he can be hurt pretty easily. Against MSU he was taken out of the game from late in the 1st quarter until either late in the 3rd or early in the 4th on a pretty benign play when MSU linebacker Eric Gordon gave him a hard shove on his way out of bounds. It essentially ended whatever legitimate shot Indiana had of staying competitive in that game. |
Mackinaw
Member
Username: Mackinaw
Post Number: 5435
Registered: 02-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, October 16, 2008 - 4:53 pm: | |
Well, if you have two talented QBs, the injury to one might not wreck your season (i.e. Oregon last season).
Recruiting supremacy is key in deciding all of this. |
_sj_
Member
Username: _sj_
Post Number: 2690
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 20, 2008 - 10:37 am: | |
quote:Recruiting supremacy is key in deciding all of this.
And having kids in the mid-west think Michigan is disrespecting them only helps its biggest rivals.
Granted there is talent in many parts of the country but Michigan built a half century of a program on the recruiting the Mid-West and winning those battles.
RR offense worked at Tulane and WVU, not exactly hot beds of college football nor power conferences.
On the other hand his stint at Clemson was not exactly awe inspiring. ACC and a hot bed of recruiting down the east coast. Success is not guaranteed.
And using the excuse that he needs his players will only buy him a season or two. |
Vetalalumni
Member
Username: Vetalalumni
Post Number: 1197
Registered: 05-2007
| | Posted on Monday, October 20, 2008 - 11:36 am: | |
Compelling arguments _sj_. Coach Rod needing "his players" is a factor more than an excuse. After attaining his players, expectations will change. |
El_jimbo
Member
Username: El_jimbo
Post Number: 819
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Monday, October 20, 2008 - 12:06 pm: | |
Vetalalumni,
The problem with the whole "his players" theory is that it goes under the assumption that the players he inherited from Carr were somehow inferior athletes and aren't capable of running RR's schemes. However, as anybody knows, that is NOT the case. Michigan has some of the best athletes in the country and has been recruiting top talent for years. Let's look at the last five recruiting classes (these classes represent the players on the current roster.
2004- #5 class in the country
2005- #6
2006- #13
2007- #12
2008- #10 (Rodriguez' first class)
That's an average class ranking of 9.2. How much of an improvement in talent is it going to take to run RR's system in the Big Ten if he can't get it done with Top Ten players as it is? The only glaring position weakness is at QB (in this system), however, a team does not one player make.
The "his players factor" is really a non-factor and is a fallacy that should be put to rest immediately. |
_sj_
Member
Username: _sj_
Post Number: 2692
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 20, 2008 - 12:11 pm: | |
Expectations may change, results may not. I see it as an excuse. |
Vetalalumni
Member
Username: Vetalalumni
Post Number: 1198
Registered: 05-2007
| | Posted on Monday, October 20, 2008 - 1:00 pm: | |
In some ways it seems similar to when a corporate takeover cleans house of the "old" staff replacing with "their own". Dynamics change and new leadership styles emerge. The quiet nuances are very real, and sort of how things get done. Relationships, written and unwritten understandings, and pacts. To those uninvolved in the day-to-day, these events may be very subtle and easily unnoticed.
So it is not a knock on current player abilities. They have arrived at a time of transition and the sometimes painful evolution involved with it. Coach Rod deserves adequate time and should keep to his basic long term plan. If he does not, his schemes and plans come into question.
(Message edited by vetalalumni on October 20, 2008) |
El_jimbo
Member
Username: El_jimbo
Post Number: 820
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Monday, October 20, 2008 - 1:19 pm: | |
In the long run, his schemes may work. Perhaps it is just a matter of needing more time to install various portions of it. However, in spite of your corporate takeover comparison, the whole notion of "his players" is an absurd excuse to justify the performance of the Michigan football team this year. |
_sj_
Member
Username: _sj_
Post Number: 2693
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 20, 2008 - 1:54 pm: | |
The guy at MSU didn't have his guys, Urban Meyer didn't have his guys at Florida. |
El_jimbo
Member
Username: El_jimbo
Post Number: 821
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Monday, October 20, 2008 - 2:22 pm: | |
sj is correct. Other coaches have come in and found success with the previous staff's players right away. Even at MSU, which has far less overall talent than Michigan. So far, Dantonio is 13-8 at MSU, in JLS' last two seasons he went 9-14 with essentially the same roster.
One thing that is interesting about MSU in terms of talent vs success is comparing Stanton and Hoyer as starters. Stanton has always been considered the better player, but with one more win, Hoyer will have more wins as a starter at MSU than Stanton did. What makes this all the more impressive is that Hoyer will have accomplished more in 2 seasons as a starter (more wins and probably 2 bowl appearances) than Stanton did in 2 and a half seasons as starter (less wins no bowl games).
Like I said, the point is that you don't need "your players" to have success. Especially when you are handed the type of talent RR was given at Michigan. |
Kenp
Member
Username: Kenp
Post Number: 1251
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Monday, October 20, 2008 - 2:46 pm: | |
I'm gonna go over to the MSU thread now and talk about the great MSU success over the last 40 years with my clear bias toward UM.
UGH scram. |
El_jimbo
Member
Username: El_jimbo
Post Number: 822
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Monday, October 20, 2008 - 3:33 pm: | |
Oh, I'm sorry Kenp. I didn't know this was a UM fanboy only thread. I'm sorry I didn't know that the rules here were run like the UM fan sites where only happy thoughts and rainbows about the team were allowed. Guess what. It not all happy thoughts and rainbows here in reality. Your team has some MAJOR problems with it and forgive me if I'm pointing them out.
Also, when you speak of clear bias, you are partially right. However, keep in mind that this is Michigan's first real coaching change since Bo came to town. When Moeller and Carr took over, they didn't really count because they were promotions from within. MSU, on the other hand, hasn't enjoyed the type of success to have assistants from the staff get promoted in a smooth transition too often over the years.
PERHAPS, that means we have a better idea than you about the successes and the pitfalls of coaching changes. However, if you want to go over to our MSU thread and discuss MSU football you are MORE than welcome to it. You see, contrary to our arrogant, self-centered Wolverine brethren, we are open to frank discussion and differing opinions. |
Vetalalumni
Member
Username: Vetalalumni
Post Number: 1199
Registered: 05-2007
| | Posted on Monday, October 20, 2008 - 5:37 pm: | |
Maybe some Wolverine fans, myself included, are creating convenient answers for Wolverine results this year. Thanks for attempting to keep me honest. As long as Coach Rod remains confident in his long-term plan, I intend to give him time to execute it. I hope he proves his detractors (very) wrong, and that he does NOT throw it in their face.
That said, his interim strategies so far this season apparently were not flexible enough to manage the expected wins. I'd have hoped Wolverines could've gone .500 this season. Maybe Coach Rod is not one to run dual strategies, one long-term, the other interim (immediate).
The players do not deserve full blame at all. Coach Rod probably should make STRONG statements regarding what has happened and his general plans for the remainder of the season. Talk to the fans and ease their minds. |
El_jimbo
Member
Username: El_jimbo
Post Number: 823
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Monday, October 20, 2008 - 6:00 pm: | |
Vetalalumni,
You are absolutely correct. It is WAY to early to start talking about RR being a failure at Michigan. However, considering the success of first year coaches at other programs compared to the horrendous play of the Wolverines to this point this year, to just look at this season as a "free pass" that can be explained away with talk about him needing "his players".
Michigan has the talent to line up on offense and run the Wing T and still at least make a bowl game this year. However, for whatever reason, they are DANGEROUSLY close to not going bowling.
Saturday IS UM's season. If they lose on Saturday to MSU and then add to that the almost assured loss to OSU to end the year, they will not be going to a bowl game. That is a disaster. I know that UM fans had lowered expectations for this season, but there is no way that any of you would consider a season where Michigan fails to qualify for a bowl game AND loses to its three biggest rivals (ND, MSU, OSU)acceptable. |
Mackinaw
Member
Username: Mackinaw
Post Number: 5442
Registered: 02-2005
| | Posted on Monday, October 20, 2008 - 7:02 pm: | |
Exactly right. |
_sj_
Member
Username: _sj_
Post Number: 2696
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 20, 2008 - 8:26 pm: | |
A fight on MSU campus could end up being the great equalizer this weekend. rumors are it involved many student athletes. |
Danny
Member
Username: Danny
Post Number: 7864
Registered: 02-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 22, 2008 - 11:04 am: | |
Wolverines can't even beat Penn State and now they are to LOSE against the Spartans and lose a bowl game participation and kiss the national championship goodbye.
GO GREEN!
You're lousy blue and gold players will never get the Heisman trophy.
The Lloyd Carr and Bo Shembeckler years are over. |
El_jimbo
Member
Username: El_jimbo
Post Number: 827
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 22, 2008 - 11:44 am: | |
danny, there is no shame in losing to this year's Penn State team. That is a helluva team JoePa has this season. |
Vetalalumni
Member
Username: Vetalalumni
Post Number: 1204
Registered: 05-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, October 23, 2008 - 12:02 am: | |
Well, Wolverine fans are certainly eating humble pie. Under the circumstances, a good thing. Reminds of ignored imperfections. Probably again sounds like convenient excuses.
The results this year are so very far below normal expectations. So the future is in focus. Coach Rod's strategy is the Wolverine Football infrastructure. It is "in progress" and "under construction". |
El_jimbo
Member
Username: El_jimbo
Post Number: 828
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, October 23, 2008 - 10:07 am: | |
Unfortunately, that "construction project" is seeing a lot of delays. Michigan just lost its 4th commit for the upcoming 2009 recruiting class when the kicker, Fera, that verballed to them announced he was no longer committed to Michigan Yesterday. He is now added to the list of Newsome, Campbell, and McNeal as players who verballed to Michigan and now are looking other places. There is a rumor that a 5th decommit may occur very soon as reports are coming in that these players who have verballed to Michigan are all "looking around":
Beaver- 4 star QB
Peace- 3 star WR
Jones- 4 star DT
Shofield- 4 star OL
LaLota- 4 star DE
Michigan better hope to hell they can hold onto these guys or this recruiting class could turn into a disaster. Of course, this is the problem when you have a national recruiting strategy and you have poor performance on the field. Most elite level athletes will only consider traveling across the country to go to college ONLY if they can play for an elite level program that is a winner. If you have a bad year like Michigan is, it is harder to convince those players to come.
That is why you HAVE to be strong in your own state and in your region as the base of your recruiting. In-state kids and kids from the region are more likely to stick around through the tough times where kids from Texas, New Jersey, Louisiana, and Illinois (although that is still in the region) will start thinking twice about coming all the way to Michigan like the kids I mentioned above are from.
This is a VERY scary stretch for Michigan right now. Michigan HAS to finish the season strong. If it doesn't, they stand a good chance of losing at least half of their top level recruits in the current recruiting class with no chance of making it up with players from Michigan or Ohio because MSU and Ohio State have already picked up the best of those players. That would be devastating to their recruiting class and recruiting is where the elite teams are born. |
_sj_
Member
Username: _sj_
Post Number: 2707
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 23, 2008 - 12:00 pm: | |
These are warning signs that do not paint a good picture. Every little blemish has to wear a little bit more of the shine off and put more pressure on him to produce quicker. |
_sj_
Member
Username: _sj_
Post Number: 2711
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 24, 2008 - 10:21 am: | |
U-M QB recruit, Beaver, suffered a various serious injury that will take months to heal and possible effect his visit to U-M. |
Danny
Member
Username: Danny
Post Number: 7871
Registered: 02-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, October 25, 2008 - 8:06 pm: | |
HA HA HA HA!
You're Amaze-ing blue is black and blue! Spartans defeated The Wolverines 35 to 21. It's over! If the Wolverines lose two more conference games, they will lose bowl game eligibility for the first time in over 40 years.
GO STATE! GO GREEN! TEAR DOWN THE MICHIGAN STADIUM!
Jovon Ringer 23 running back, next Heisman Trophy Winner. |
Mackinaw
Member
Username: Mackinaw
Post Number: 5451
Registered: 02-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, October 25, 2008 - 8:14 pm: | |
no, one more loss and they lose bowl eligibility.
btw, hit the road sore winner.
you just broke off a six year streak against the #110 offense in the country. |
Danny
Member
Username: Danny
Post Number: 7872
Registered: 02-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, October 25, 2008 - 8:25 pm: | |
Spartans pull away from Wolverines Source: Associated Press
Posted: Saturday, October 25, 2008 5:32:00 PM EST
Published: Saturday, October 25, 2008 7:31:39 PM EST
Box Score
ANN ARBOR, Mich. (AP) -- Michigan State finally beat Michigan.
And the Spartans had to overcome a blown call to do it.
Javon Ringer's second touchdown broke a tie midway through the fourth quarter and Brian Hoyer's third touchdown pass padded the lead, lifting the Spartans to a 35-21 win over the Wolverines on Saturday.
Michigan State (7-2, 4-1 Big Ten) had not knocked off its rival since 2001, when T.J. Duckett scored with a disputed second on the clock, and was winless at the Big House since 1990, when Desmond Howard was tripped in the end zone and no penalty was called.
Michigan (2-6, 1-3) tied the game in the first quarter when the replay official overturned a ruling on the field, giving Brandon Minor a TD because his foot hit a pylon.
The NCAA rule book, however, states: "A player or an airborne player who touches a pylon is out of bounds."
Referee Dave Witvoet was to speak to a pool reporter about the play that was overturned by a replay official.
Michigan State ended up making the explanation moot.
The Spartans outgained Michigan 473-252, their highest total in a win at Michigan Stadium in a half-century.
Ringer ran for 194 yards and two scores on 37 carries. Hoyer was 17-of-29 for 282 yards and a season-high three touchdowns. Blair White scored on a 61-yard reception to start the scoring and finished with four catches for 143 yards.
Steven Threet was 13-of-26 for 168 yards with a touchdown and three interceptions. He scored on a third-quarter run, giving Michigan its only lead.
Minor ran for 55 yards and a score and was credited with a 19-yard TD reception.
Michigan State, 7-2 for just the third time in 40 years, will be tied for second place in the Big Ten with the loser of the Penn State-Ohio State game.
The Rich Rodriguez-led Wolverines are having their worst season since 1962, when they finished 2-7 and tied a school record for losses. They've lost four games at home for the first time in four decades.
College football's winningest program has to win its final four games -- three of which are on the road including one at Ohio State -- just to be eligible to play in a 34th straight bowl game.
GO GREEN! WE'RE KICK THEIR BLUE AND GOLD'S BEHINDS. |
Mackinaw
Member
Username: Mackinaw
Post Number: 5453
Registered: 02-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, October 25, 2008 - 8:48 pm: | |
Maize and Blue.
Are you speaking English? |
Ltorivia485
Member
Username: Ltorivia485
Post Number: 3154
Registered: 08-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, October 26, 2008 - 9:24 pm: | |
Why doesn't Coach Rod have flexible plans? I, too, thought Michigan would finish .500 (which is respectable for a new coach and new system). Sticking to one plan and seeing your players lose every week DOES NOT sound right to me. Adapt the system to your players' strengths. |
El_jimbo
Member
Username: El_jimbo
Post Number: 832
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 28, 2008 - 6:27 am: | |
Ltorivia,
RichRod, as you can tell by his antics during the offseason, thinks an awful lot of himself. I'm guessing that it is out of pure arrogance that he didn't adjust to his personnel. |