 
Pam
Member
Username: Pam
Post Number: 4779
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 31, 2008 - 6:48 pm: |    |
quote:But until residents realize it is them for the most part who are to blame it will not be fixed because only Detroiters can fix the problem.
No I won't chill out because I am tired of the same bullshit day in and day out. You as a resident (if you even are that) should be a bit more pissed than a foreigner is don't you think. But hey, ignorance it bliss right?
I don't live in the city, but I live in S.E. Michigan. I'm not pissed at the residents of the city, because I don't blame them for all the problems. A lot of Detroiters do care and are trying to improve their neighborhoods. |
Downtown_lady
Member
Username: Downtown_lady
Post Number: 493
Registered: 08-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, January 01, 2009 - 3:26 am: | |
First of all Goat, when I asked you if all 900,000 Detroiters are uneducated and have dead relatives but at least they have their credentials, you not only did not answer the question, you changed the subject. So I'll take that to mean that you were wrong to generalize.
Secondly, to say "f*ck you" to Iheartthed is BEYOND inappropriate.
Additionally, when you say "I want Detroit to prosper because it is good for my city as well" I totally do not believe you. I completely believe that you love bitching about Detroit and if Detroit were to prosper that would bring your pleasure to an end. Call me a skeptic.
Goat, you have such horrible, negative energy. I don't think you want to be a problem-solver as much as you want to blame and create conflict. I'm going to be skipping your posts in the future. For instance, I am going to skip over the nasty reply that you will surely write in response to this post. So you should really save your energy and just not type it because I won't read it. But if it makes you feel good to be negative and hostile, then please go ahead. And if you disagree with anything that I write, please feel free to skip my posts too.
Finally, Furnitureguy: "Mah d*ck, mah d*ck...thats the real detroit. Who wants to live around that?" Seriously? That statement is the epitome of ignorance. You think you know Detroit, but you only know some of Detroit or what you choose to see. Please tell me where you buy, sell, make, restore or whatever you do to furniture so that I can be sure never to go there.
There is so much hateful energy on this thread, I'm done with this one. And for anyone who wants to say that I'm being naive or ignoring real issues, please save it as I am doing neither. Hateful energy does not solve problems. |
Detroit_expat
Member
Username: Detroit_expat
Post Number: 69
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 01, 2009 - 9:05 am: | |
Goat could have been more artful and less insulting in his arguments, but I think he is right, ultimately.
Yes, there are some wonderful people in Detroit. I've met them, lived with them, worked with them, etc. But there are too many Detroiters who want the city to remain just as it is -- a lawless, third-world slum.
I no longer work nor live in Detroit, and you could not pay me to do so. You could put new stadia and casinos on every block, and it won't matter. Barack Obama can be proclaimed President-For-Life, and it won't matter. Detroit can be fixed only by Detroiters.
Ever watch a City Council meeting? Ever watch a school board meeting? Both are always laughable. Who elects those crazy people? Detroiters do.
In a democracy, people get what they deserve. That's why those who were or are able to, have left or will leave the city. Everyone talks about white flight, black flight and, now, latino flight. I think that's the wrong way to look at it.
Basically, there's 'I want to feel safe in my home, have my kids in decent schools, and be able to shop in a grocery store without a 20-mile roundtrip' flight.
Unless and until enough Detroiters want and demand better, nothing will change.
(Message edited by Detroit Ex-Pat on January 01, 2009) |
Gnome
Member
Username: Gnome
Post Number: 2205
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, January 01, 2009 - 10:42 am: | |
Goat lives in Windsor, not Sweden, so does he have a right to opinion about Detroit? Sure does.
Goat is very, very active in civic affairs over in Windsor and is one of the reasons we US citizens think the Windsor river front is pretty nice. Goat has shoveled dirt, dug up asphalt, carried rocks and planted flowers from Dieppe to The Bridge.
Goat has been also active with church outreach programs. Many aimed at housing the homeless and providing a structured transition for people getting out of prison. Goat has also worked with unwed mothers in providing support services.
Goat is making a difference in Windsor.
Dismissing Goat's opinion as irrelevant is ignorant in the extreme; not just because it shows a disappointing lack of insight but because Goat has proven experience that could be put into effect on this side of the border.
One of Detroit's core problems is the pervasive attitude of, "We can handle it." Well, here's a news flash: we can't. Proof? Take your pick: school test scores, the drop-out rate, or the Elected Cream of City leaders ... Conyers, Collins, Reeves, Murry, Cheeks, Young, Kilpatrick.
Please, there is little in Detroit to be proud of as far as our elected representatives are concerned and who's to blame? You, me, us.
Goat suggested that the citizens of other cities would rise up and riot if graduation rates fell to Detroit levels, but what does Detroit do? Quibble if the rate is 34 or 64 percent.
Are you serious. You defend that as acceptable? 64%? A D minus grade?
Oh, no what the good folks here do is attack Goat. Goat's a FrostBack. A Canadian. A Windsorite...and goodness, might even be white. Oh yes, the good people here delight in the fact that you hit a nerve. Nice. Or they get all offended at "fuck you".
You don't seem to realise that every tax bill you get is a real, "fuck you" not some chatroom squabble. Every time the school board and administration walks into their rented Fisher Building offices, while Cass Tech rots, they are screaming "FUCK YOU" in your face, they are knocking you down and ass fucking you with a broom handle. Every time Kwame and his thug parade sped by they were screaming "FUUUUCK YUOOOO!!"
That's the "FCUK YOU" welcome you get in Detroit.
Oh, but certain eyes are averted from real reality as they'd rather find it in the rear-view mirror of "you left".
Yeah the problem is all the people who left, seeming leaving the City inhabited by the insane. You profess to love the D, to be a downtown lady, fine. I believe it.
But you might want to convince others. |
Jcole
Member
Username: Jcole
Post Number: 5310
Registered: 04-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, January 01, 2009 - 10:54 am: | |
Well said, Gnome |
Lodgedodger
Member
Username: Lodgedodger
Post Number: 1183
Registered: 05-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, January 01, 2009 - 10:54 am: | |
Every time I read negative posts about the city, I think of Cub and his project. It renews my hope in the city.
Yes, there are problems, but I won't give up on Detroit. Ever. |
English
Member
Username: English
Post Number: 411
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 01, 2009 - 11:22 am: | |
Lodgedodger, totally agreed. I have a radical plan that I think might just save urban education, which is why I wanted to get the PhD. My little idea is being validated by all of the research, the national commission that just looked at schools in America, and even globalist perspectives like Friedman's *The World is Flat*. All I would need is one school in Detroit to start with...
But I'm not sure the best way "in"... Detroit's complicated. I wrote a long post about my history as a volunteer and reformist seeking solutions in the city, but most people on this thread don't want to hear about that. They think they've heard it all before.
And please, don't engage FurnitureGuy and that "mah dick" crap. The only other place I've seen that term used is in places that compare black Detroiters to animals. I'd post the site, but Lowell in his infinite wisdom has blocked it. So if the rest of you would like to engage a white supremacist, fine, but since his comments imply that he thinks I'm simian instead of human, I refuse to address the little rat. |
Jb3
Member
Username: Jb3
Post Number: 501
Registered: 06-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, January 01, 2009 - 11:26 am: | |
English,
I'm intrigued. can you post a link to your thread? |
English
Member
Username: English
Post Number: 412
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 01, 2009 - 11:34 am: | |
Jb3, I deleted my post. I'll start a new thread soon... |
Chuckjav
Member
Username: Chuckjav
Post Number: 1338
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, January 01, 2009 - 11:52 am: | |
English....please let me know if your plans include a position for an experienced individual - from Detroit - who possesses Ohio teaching licensure (7-12 comprehensive social sciences). This person is also a substance abuse counselor, swimming & diving/track & field coach....former loss prevention detective. |
Ragtoplover59
Member
Username: Ragtoplover59
Post Number: 429
Registered: 09-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, January 01, 2009 - 12:24 pm: | |
Very well put together Gnome.
Jcole's post above was also spot on!
In so many threads beyond this one, The Idea that people leaving Detroit was the problem? That is only part correct.
I fall into that class, I am from the "D", but was pulled out when my fathers job moved out of state. I tried to come back, couldn't get work?
But you sure can't blame me for the decline of Detroit. I had no say in my leaving, and no support in my coming back!
In my mind , it wasn't the people that left the city as much as it was the City that left the People?
Every city in the country has people that leave, either for work or just the dream to grow up and move on!
A lot of people have the roaming bug and the mind set that "The grass is greener" on the other side?
The difference is that for most cities when someone leaves, someone else comes!
as long as the job market can handle it!
If you do not have a healthy job market, then you better find other ways to help each other,
That is where the "Cub's" of the world come in!
Detroit needs more like Cub, Help out your fellow man, Live a life with good values and teach them to the younger ones!, This is the only hope for the future.
The government isn't going to fix it for you!
Downtown_lady
I hope you can come to understand what Furnitureguy's point was?
It's best to look over a post or thread for awhile before taking offence at someones take on something?
Throwing out something like
"Please tell me where you buy, sell, make, restore or whatever you do to furniture so that I can be sure never to go there."
and then following it up with
" Hateful energy does not solve problems."
It seems that hateful energy may possibly keep you from supporting Detroit businesses. |
English
Member
Username: English
Post Number: 413
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 01, 2009 - 12:28 pm: | |
It would indeed, Chuckjav! But I wouldn't be able to open until mid-2010 at the very earliest.
In a nutshell: I'm rethinking my plans to leave the state after I finish Michigan... and thinking about becoming the founding principal of a radical Detroit secondary school (grades 7-12, plus eventually adult education) that has a civic-minded, sustainable ethos AND is open very close to 24-7-365. A combination school and community center, so to speak, with open enrollment. We'd eventually have three shifts. The code of conduct would be very similar to KIPP, with heavy emphasis on character and ethics education. And there would be strong university partnerships -- I want our work informed by research AND results.
I'd need an extremely dedicated staff who was licensed, screened, trustworthy, and of good character. Not just the folks you'd typically find in schools and community organizations, either. I'd need funding. And I'd need community buy-in... or at least, not the protests I'd imagine. I would make Michelle Rhee in DC look sane.
It seems crazy even to me. I've had my first job offer already -- a nice professorship out West. Trying to earn tenure in one of the nation's Cool Cities would be easy compared to what I'm dreaming about doing. But for some reason, I'm starting to dream about this school... and eventually a "hostile takeover" of DPS.
And the crazy thing is, I've seen this model work before, informally, in various schools and community organizations all over Detroit. It is *why* not all the kids from troubled backgrounds in the city are nuts. There are noble individuals here and there, and like one of my teachers said about her Cooley HS Advanced Placement teens: "There are good kids everywhere." School reform has just never been systematized and integrated into a cohesive whole with a specific mission statement. There are many reasons for that, and my fear is that even if my school succeeded for a time, there wouldn't be a way to systematize an effective model.
OK. There it is. Tell me I'm insane.
(Message edited by English on January 01, 2009) |
English
Member
Username: English
Post Number: 414
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 01, 2009 - 12:43 pm: | |
Another thought:
It seems to me that we all look at Detroit, even the best of us, as a place of limits and constraints, instead of a place of opportunity. Only in Detroit could a 16 year old girl -- me -- found a nonprofit organization that New Detroit and the Detroit Public Library mentored and the Skillman Foundation funded 15 years ago. Only in Detroit could an inexperienced teacher in her early 20s end up working in the best school in the district.
If we think outside of the box, the opportunities are limitless. I remember reading a story about the sustainable, urban gardening movement in Detroit almost 10 years ago and crying like a baby. In my imagination, I saw Detroit in 2100 and it was Paradise -- an oasis in an overdeveloped nation, and a model of how to have a sustainable urban city. Whether I come back to the city or not, I know my hometown's best days are ahead of it. I know that its potential is limitless, especially if we stop thinking like it's still the 20th century, and judging ourselves by those bloated, selfish standards.
I think about the poem by Marianne Williamson that sums up what I try to instill in all my students. I taught my DPS students that it was their responsibility to transform Detroit into a city on a hill -- to see the potential beyond what their eyes perceived. I teach my Michigan students that it is their responsibility to transform education, because...
"Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate.
Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure.
"It is our light, not our darkness, that most frightens us.
We ask ourselves, Who am I to be brilliant,
gorgeous, handsome, talented and fabulous?
"Actually, who are you not to be?
You are a child of God.
"Your playing small does not serve the world.
There is nothing enlightened about shrinking
so that other people won't feel insecure around you.
We are all meant to shine, as children do.
"We were born to make manifest the glory of God within us.
It is not just in some; it is in everyone.
"And, as we let our own light shine, we consciously give
other people permission to do the same.
As we are liberated from our fear,
our presence automatically liberates others."
My hope and prayer for 2009 is that Detroiters (and that means everyone in the region) liberate themselves from fear. We don't trap beavers or make stoves for a reason -- our ancestors tried something new. If we do what we've always done, we're going to get what we've always gotten.
Just my two cents. If I'm home, I'll be watching this evening. |
Ragtoplover59
Member
Username: Ragtoplover59
Post Number: 430
Registered: 09-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, January 01, 2009 - 12:49 pm: | |
English, I had not hear that term, but in the line you said,
"And please, don't engage FurnitureGuy and that "mah dick" crap. The only other place I've seen that term used is in places that,,,,"
tells me you have before, so I assume FurnitureGuy has just repeated and not invented the term? I tend to think that his line
"Who wants to live around that?"
Removes him from that thought personally? I could be wrong? Guilty of my own not looking at a thread long enough, But I have looked back and cannot find his Malicious intent?
I would like someone to answer Goat's question,
"where are the mass protests when a child is shot in the head by some thug? Where are the 900,000 Detroiters then? Where is the outrage?
The only outrage I see is when a CVS puts in an armed guard and looks "suspicious" at someone, then there is outrage."
You can get upset with him if you want, But I Agree! |
English
Member
Username: English
Post Number: 415
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 01, 2009 - 1:04 pm: | |
Ragtop, there's a pretty racist website that reports Detroit news and calls black people primates. I stumbled on it by mistake, but I investigated it... I wanted to know if those posting there were my neighbors, so I can watch my back! That "mah dick" stuff seems to be common parlance over there. It seems to be alluding to the notion that black men don't have brains, but do all their thinking with their crotches. It's very insulting.
As for your second question, I'm done with mass protests. Those were the tactics of the 1960s. Instead, let's deal with the underlying causes. What we have been doing is treating a terminal cancer patient for dehydration, instead of giving her chemotherapy.
What would make a human being kill a child? ANY human being, not just black men who do it? Is he/she a psychopath? If so, then were their parents psychopaths? If that's the case, should the killer have ever been born? What does it say about a society that allows killers to be born and reared to adulthood? Why shouldn't we get rid of anyone who is a murderer before they commit murder -- by any means necessary?
We CAN have a society where we engineer things to attempt prevention. How would you like to do it? You've got GREAT templates from the past. Sterilize "high-risk populations"? Round us up, put us in cattle cars, and institute some sick final solution? Crowd us into ghettoes and restrict our movements via laws?
It's easy to scapegoat an entire population, and cull them so that they're no longer a "problem". It's much more difficult to integrate them into society, and figure out why people who can potentially cross-breed with you (which means they ARE the same species, for heaven's sake) do not perceive the world the same way as you do. Homo sapiens, hierarchical by nature, has a very difficult time with this.
For the theists among you, I suggest you read the bestselling novel *The Shack*. It deals with many of the existential questions we wrestle with here.
(Message edited by English on January 01, 2009) |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 3649
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, January 01, 2009 - 1:51 pm: | |
quote:Every time I read negative posts about the city, I think of Cub and his project. It renews my hope in the city.
Just curious, how many stories have been written or reported about Cub's project in the local media? |
Brizee
Member
Username: Brizee
Post Number: 14
Registered: 07-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, January 01, 2009 - 1:56 pm: | |
That "mah dick" is used by a bunch of white supremacist websites/cartoons.
It's definitely something that puts me on alert of the person using it. |
Postbop
Member
Username: Postbop
Post Number: 160
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, January 01, 2009 - 2:01 pm: | |
I'm not making this post disqualifying anyone's point of views. Tact aside, almost everyone is making decent points reflecting their priorities for Detroit.
One thing that I haven't heard anyone bring to conversation yet is the lack of an economic base contributing to its plight. In short, money.
I'm not an economist and couldn't specify exact principles that would describe Detroit, but at the risk of generalizing, where there is no money, the quality of living suffers. When there is no money, police protection is down (crime rises) and education funding becomes tough creating students with minimal job skills and few options. These are just 2 basic examples; you could apply this across the board.
The small amounts of money being dumped into the city (stadiums, stores) is not enough to change a city without jobs and means to create an income. I love Detroit and like to think it is special, but are its problems unlike other similar size cities in this region that suffer from the lack of money?
How to bring significant amounts of money is an answer I cannot give. It is a problem over my head; I hope that there are people in important places that have monetary resources, that care about building our small economic base. I think other symptoms will resolve themselves when that happens.
I cannot get on board with simple generalizations of racism or fixations on drugs. There are huge amounts of drug use amongst people in affluent communities; it is just hidden better. You can't tell me that there aren't the exact same education and crime problems with poor communities of whites. We're just arrogant and condescending if we assume that these are 'black' problems.
Being poor is something that transcends race, religion, and even people in general. It is identifiable with our city, and until there is the proper economic base, we will always suffer the same symptoms. Everything else is a band-aid. |
Ragtoplover59
Member
Username: Ragtoplover59
Post Number: 432
Registered: 09-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, January 01, 2009 - 2:05 pm: | |
English
I understand where you are coming from and the offence that could be taken.
I'm just not convinced FurnitureGuy meant anything from his own personal mindset?
As for part 2,
I don't think Goat was asking for mass protests (in march form), as much as he was just asking for someone to give a damn!
Of course we can't condemn a whole people on the possibility that some may fail,
But when we do catch one, and take as many steps as the law has demanded to prove or deem them guilty,
We still seem to let them back out into society with the equivalent of a slap on the wrist.
The Bad guys have no fear of anything happening to them from any crime they commit.
And no one will own up to being guilty and needing punishment?
Even something as minor as a parking ticket!
Get one and the next step is to come here and get every one's advice on how to get out of it?
Iheartthed
I don't know how many stories have been written about Cub and his projects, But I do know that at least one interview made an appearance in papers all across the country. |
Pam
Member
Username: Pam
Post Number: 4784
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, January 01, 2009 - 2:37 pm: | |
quote:One thing that I haven't heard anyone bring to conversation yet is the lack of an economic base contributing to its plight. In short, money.
That is the main problem. |
Ragtoplover59
Member
Username: Ragtoplover59
Post Number: 434
Registered: 09-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, January 01, 2009 - 3:25 pm: | |
My own post above, #429
"as long as the job market can handle it!
If you do not have a healthy job market, then you better find other ways to help each other"
I'm thinking this has to be the start of an economic base? No jobs - No Money - less People = No Base
Just pointing out I did bring it to the conversation, wanted to do the smiley face to show my reaction to it not being seen, But I just can't do a happy face about the $$ in the "D" situation. |
Glowblue
Member
Username: Glowblue
Post Number: 102
Registered: 09-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, January 01, 2009 - 4:15 pm: | |
There is no major problem in Detroit that can't be fixed with money. |
Jcole
Member
Username: Jcole
Post Number: 5314
Registered: 04-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, January 01, 2009 - 5:09 pm: | |
You can dump all the money you want into Detroit, and it's not going to truly fix things until they get a city council that wants to get things done. They need to get rid of the current group, and change the way of voting so that council members are elected from their own districts/neighborhoods, so that representation is equally distributed and some of the pet projects (i.e. Motown statues)have a chance of being voted down. |
Detroitrise
Member
Username: Detroitrise
Post Number: 3784
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, January 01, 2009 - 5:38 pm: | |
quote:There is no major problem in Detroit that can't be fixed with money.
Agreed, and lots of it.  |
Buyamerican
Member
Username: Buyamerican
Post Number: 891
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, January 01, 2009 - 6:41 pm: | |
^^^The powers that be in Detroit fail to get audits completed on time and lose millions of dollars from the State. That is money lost and no one cares. |
Dtowncitylover
Member
Username: Dtowncitylover
Post Number: 427
Registered: 02-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, January 01, 2009 - 6:48 pm: | |
So, if anyone is out there. It's going to be on CBS Evening News in like 3 minutes, just heard the anchor say its coming up. |
Chuckjav
Member
Username: Chuckjav
Post Number: 1340
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, January 01, 2009 - 6:52 pm: | |
Very Well Done.
Gripping...poignant - to the point. |
Dtowncitylover
Member
Username: Dtowncitylover
Post Number: 428
Registered: 02-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, January 01, 2009 - 7:11 pm: | |
Yeah, it was. Thank God that the reporter from Detroit. |
Sg9018
Member
Username: Sg9018
Post Number: 247
Registered: 10-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, January 01, 2009 - 9:00 pm: | |
Here is the text verson of Armen Keteyian report,
CBS NEWS -
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories /2009/01/01/eveningnews/main46 95590.shtml?tag=topStory;topStoryHeadline
Motor City Misery
CBS Evening News: A Decimated Industry, An Indicted Mayor, And An 0-16 Football Team; Taking Stock Of Detroit's Woes
"CBS) Folks in Detroit can be forgiven if they don't say "happy new year" with conviction this year.
Detroit has the nation's highest poverty rate among large cities. It also has one of the nation's lowest median incomes. Those problems have been compounded by the unraveling of the auto industry. Even the hapless Detroit Lions couldn't manage a single win this year, reports CBS News correspondent Armen Keteyian, a Detroit native.
Not so long ago, Detroit drove the American dream, fueled by the of the automotive industry and organized labor. It was blue collar to the bone, innovative enough to bring us now classic cars and the Motown sound that changed music; Strong enough to survive the long hot summer of '67 that nearly burned it to the ground.
But nothing in its rich history compares to what the motor city wakes up to today.
"The mood in Detroit since I've been here, which is 25 years, has never been this glum," says Mitch Albom, a celebrated author, columnist and radio host in Detroit. "We're used to tough times and it's a pretty strong-backboned city. But whatever is happening to the rest of the country, you could pretty much multiply it by 10 and say, well, that's what's going on here in Detroit."
What's going on is hard to believe: failing car companies, record foreclosures. double-digit unemployment, a once-promising mayor now behind bars. The downtown is a virtual ghost town.
One restaurant owner says his business is down 50 percent from last year.
Pro sports have long been the elixir in Detroit - world championships easing the collective pain. But the once-beloved Lions decended into the laughingstock of the NFL.
Hapless, hopeless, winless this season, they finished 0-16, setting a new record for futility.
To the downright despair of so many in Detroit, the Lions have turned into the very image image of the city: Plagued by poor design, faulty engineering, bad parts, and the wrong men behind the wheel -- an assembly line of problems that dates back decades."
Sill, amid all the anger and despair, there is toughness and resolve. There is, after all, the spirit of Detroit.
"If you don't have hope, especially in a city like this, you don't have anything," says Albom. "So we wake up every day and hope it will get better." " |
Glowblue
Member
Username: Glowblue
Post Number: 104
Registered: 09-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, January 01, 2009 - 9:08 pm: | |
quote:You can dump all the money you want into Detroit, and it's not going to truly fix things until they get a city council that wants to get things done. They need to get rid of the current group, and change the way of voting so that council members are elected from their own districts/neighborhoods, so that representation is equally distributed and some of the pet projects (i.e. Motown statues)have a chance of being voted down.
A wealthier city will breed more competent public officials, and wealthy cities are less prone (though not immune) to corrupting political machines. |
Jcole
Member
Username: Jcole
Post Number: 5316
Registered: 04-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, January 01, 2009 - 9:22 pm: | |
You mean like Chicago? |
Detroitrise
Member
Username: Detroitrise
Post Number: 3789
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, January 01, 2009 - 9:25 pm: | |
quote:You mean like Chicago?
At least their corrupt politicians get the job done. |
Jcole
Member
Username: Jcole
Post Number: 5317
Registered: 04-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, January 01, 2009 - 9:26 pm: | |
But they are, nonetheless, corrupt. |
Glowblue
Member
Username: Glowblue
Post Number: 105
Registered: 09-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, January 01, 2009 - 9:34 pm: | |
quote:But they are, nonetheless, corrupt.
I'd take Richard Daley over Kwame Kilpatrick any day of the week. |
Detroitrise
Member
Username: Detroitrise
Post Number: 3790
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, January 01, 2009 - 9:36 pm: | |
quote:But they are, nonetheless, corrupt.
All politicians are corrupt.
What's most important is rather or not they get the job done. |
Jcole
Member
Username: Jcole
Post Number: 5318
Registered: 04-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, January 01, 2009 - 9:41 pm: | |
I agree, but my comment is based solely on Glowblue's comment that quote:A wealthier city will breed more competent public officials, and wealthy cities are less prone (though not immune) to corrupting political machines. |
Warrenite84
Member
Username: Warrenite84
Post Number: 461
Registered: 01-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, January 01, 2009 - 10:27 pm: | |
Safety. Taxes. Responsibility. Education. Work.
Without getting these first, no money or jobs will come.
Safety. Demanding the city punish all criminal behavior including poor upkeep of property, vandalisn, and scrapping enablers. Chain gangs to make the debt to society be used to clean up the messes. People need to feel safe anywhere in Detroit.
Taxes. Low enough so investors and small businesses are willing to fill a need here.
Responsibility. EVERY CITIZEN'S CALLING. From keeping your property clean; to teaching children to respect elders, teachers, police; to requiring high ethical and competency standards from elected officials.
Education. To be supportive of students to the detriment of poor teachers and systems that do not work. Be willing to wipe out and remake the system to the benefit of students. Be willing to accept outside help and funding if they have a proven track record of success.
Work. No exceptions for suburbanites or residents. It is easier to tear down than to build up so we ALL must get to work to unite and rebuild all of Metro Detroit. A unified Detroit will benefit us ALL.......IMHO. |
Gthomas
Member
Username: Gthomas
Post Number: 129
Registered: 09-2004
| | Posted on Friday, January 02, 2009 - 1:09 am: | |
I agree....safety first. Better street lighting, sidewalks, tree-lined street, well lit businesses at nite, and clean streets. Police monitor camara system posted every mile on light post, similar to chicago. Improve police prescence on streets especially at nite, patroling neighborhoods by district. Pass a State law to make ALL businesses and resident alike to upkeep their property or be fined and/or to do community service. Require some type of exterior lighting, landscaping and visible attractive signage. Offer curfews for underage residents year round, including patroling at school during school hours.
Also, having every residents to have porch lights on at nite for public safety. Make it an requirement for the city or else. Detroit Motto: Improve Detroit- Education, Public Safety, City services....or Else! |
Downtown_lady
Member
Username: Downtown_lady
Post Number: 494
Registered: 08-2008
| | Posted on Friday, January 02, 2009 - 2:38 am: | |
quote:Oh, no what the good folks here do is attack Goat. Goat's a FrostBack. A Canadian. A Windsorite...and goodness, might even be white. Oh yes, the good people here delight in the fact that you hit a nerve. Nice. Or they get all offended at "fuck you".
Geez, Gnome...
Let's have a reality check. ONE person made a reference to Goat being a Canadian. ONE. That post has since been deleted. NOT ONE PERSON made the tiniest, slightest hint of a reference to Goat's comments being irrelevant because he "might even be white", so I don't know where you got that from or why you thought it was fair game to throw that in there. Many posters on this very thread "might even be white", including the Detroiters here.
Goat has "proven experience that could be put into effect on this side of the border". Excellent. My point though is that the most effective way to win friends and influence people may not be to tell people that their "posts are stupid" and that their "comments are inane", to call this city "a festering wound", to say "f*ck you" when asked a question, and to make sweeping generalizations about Detroiters, their education and their views on street cred.
Many on this forum are informed, involved and passionate about the city. Many probably agree with Goat's views. However, he might rally the troops a little more successfully if he took a break from the flower planting long enough to learn how to talk to people without the insults and the profanity. The validity of his message does not give him carte blanche to talk to people any way he pleases. As for your lovely paragraph describing ass-rape with a broom handle, who exactly "doesn't realize" any of what you refer to in that paragraph? Me speaking up against Goat's approach doesn't mean I don't understand the issues at hand. Just to clarify: Not disagreeing with Goat's message. Disagreeing with his attack. Different things.
I agree that you and I both should convince others to love the D. Let's compare notes on what approach has worked for each of us so far in this regard. |
Leannam1989
Member
Username: Leannam1989
Post Number: 158
Registered: 06-2008
| | Posted on Friday, January 02, 2009 - 3:12 am: | |
I've never been to Detroit, but I do believe that ultimately the fate of the city rests in the hands of its citizens. Obviously no individual citizens are to blame for the schools or the crime rate. Many are trying to change it. But for any city to succeed and grow, there needs to be a large group of people determined to grow the city. You need a large group of people with pride who give a rat's backside about the future of its city. I think attitude is one thing that can hold a city back. And not just big cities. Small towns can have the same problem.
A city can get stimulus packages and money from the government, but if citizens don't do what they can to turn around their neighborhoods, and if parents don't start parenting, then it's probably going to fail. Or you will have a few good neighborhoods where people who care live, and a few bad neighborhoods with fewer people who care.
I believe that many of you do what you can to support your city, but if most Detroiters don't do anything, why should the rest of the county feel compelled to do anything? And I don't think most the country hates Detroit, but probably most the country has given up on Detroit rising again.
These are tough times economically, The Big 3 are failing, the Tigers sucked last year, the Lions set a record (not in a good way). Other than the Red Wings, I realize things are not looking up. But any city that expects the worst will probably get the worst.
Here in Missouri most people think that the city of St. Louis as a whole is a ghetto. Is that holding the city back? Maybe a little bit. But neighborhoods that have citizens who want to see change, like Old North for example, are on the rise again, slowly but surely. I've never lived in St. Louis, though I know people that do and have and they are still alive. Cities and neighborhoods can turn around. Soulard used to be pretty ugly apparently. It's a fairly desirable neighborhood now, and pretty popular during Mardi Gras.
I know this is long and has nothing particularly to do with Detroit, but I think when Detroiters as a whole take a stand, and lay off the "everybody hates me" attitude, then things will turn around. When teenagers stop having crack babies, and the majority of kids graduate, and parents actually teach and discipline their children, when Detroiters stop treating welfare as a career, things will turn around. From what I've read on here and in the news (which obviously can be skewed), maybe the big thing Detroit needs is an attitude adjustment.
And rather than blame the children and grandchildren of the people who left the city, give these people a reason to come back. |
Lilpup
Member
Username: Lilpup
Post Number: 5100
Registered: 06-2004
| | Posted on Friday, January 02, 2009 - 3:18 am: | |
quote:maybe the big thing Detroit needs is an attitude adjustment
Maybe a big thing Detroit needs is outsiders not spewing their blatantly ignorant, and likely racist, bullshit everywhere.
Prime example:"when Detroiters stop treating welfare as a career" |
Furnitureguy
Member
Username: Furnitureguy
Post Number: 37
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 02, 2009 - 5:40 am: | |
I cant help but wonder what city or "fantasy island" English lives on..LOL Also I would like to have some of what you are smoking because I think it would do everyone good to go to LA LA LAND for a while. Talk about someone in denial , look around you lady. I hope you come to terms with reality before you let a place like Detroit steal your best years. I am not racist , I am a realist and cannot ignore this mentality of which I labeled "muh d*ck" which plagues this city in abundance. Badge it how you want, its all the same. Just ask Dr. Bill Cosby, he knows how to explain this atrocious behavior better than me. I think he does a great job trying to inform black males of their responsibilities in community and family, however I believe it falls on deaf ears. Detroit is the epitomy of what he preaches against. |
Gnome
Member
Username: Gnome
Post Number: 2206
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Friday, January 02, 2009 - 6:18 am: | |
Apparantly some people aren't aware of how much work has gone into the creation of the park across the River. Same as over here, but done with less money and fewer people. Reclaiming brownfield, consoldating properties, fighting with and against City, Provincle and Federal Governments. That was years before any asphalt was removed, rocks hauled, drainage field laid, soil ammended or flowers planted.
A lot of work went into it, but if some think it was only "flower planting" it shows how little they know about actually getting things done. Ignorance hidden behind a church-lady hat is still just ingnorance.
Don't want to be ignorant, you say? Don't like being refered to as ignorant, you say? Ah, how about showing up to a work day at the Fort. Or maybe a softball game under the bridge. Or canvass for signatures to remove a crook from office. Or rally outside City Hall. Or read some books to children, dig the soil, cook a meal with Cub at Georgia Street.
Oh, not lady-like enough? Gosh, it's getting tough to figure out what's lady-like and what's just plain ol (let the other guy do the work, just give me the money)selfish.
Code-speak for The Other is not difficult to decipher, David Rambeau taught me how to do it, and it is unseemly, if not snortingly laughable, to hide behind a fig-leaf of semantics. The notion of The Other is well ingrained in the local lexicon of division and xenophobia. It is what has kept us apart and is proving to be fertilizer for our seeds of destruction.
Keep that, "We don't need nobody ceptin' ourselves" kind of thinking. It sure is working good. Keep that, "just send us the money" kind of dreaming and it will certainly work. Keep doing that same stuff, don't accept any new ideas, certainly not from Frostbacks, and we'll keep getting to same results.
Along the way, make sure you blame Redford Twp for stealing your students, and for Birmingham for stealing your spenders, and Red Lobster for stealing your customers. Keep that blame thing going. Blame The Other, the Outsider, the Grandchildren of The Leavers. Monica Conyers has made a life out of it, no reason other folk can't join in.
While you're doing that, pour yourself another Grape Faygo, light up a Newport and just thank god that everyone is hitting 8 Mile Road. |
Jjw
Member
Username: Jjw
Post Number: 547
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Friday, January 02, 2009 - 8:29 am: | |
Goat made some very valid points that seem to offend some folks; language aside.
All US cities have the same issues although Detroit seems a bit glutted by them. As a former Detroiter now living in Baltimore, I have to agree with Goat for a variety of reasons.
In Baltimore, great strides have been made in many neighborhoods to clean them up and make them safe once again. It has worked and there are many areas deemed unsafe or unlivable 10 years ago that are today having homes go upwards of 300 grand. But, and a big but, much of the city still is like a war zone. Yes, our downtown is active and we have better mass transit but until the citizens of the "war-zone" areas wake up and have some pride in their families and neighborhood, it will not change. All the money and time put in by outsiders will not work. People need to say enough is enough and invest in their children and their children's schools by showing interest and teaching children and themselves right from wrong. It's that simple.
It's funny in Baltimore. It seems that non-Blacks are taking an interest in their neighborhoods and cleaning them up whereas Black folks who get a bit of money are out in a New York minute to the burbs without showing interest on the neighborhoods. I know that sounds racist but that is the cold fact. Many of the "non-Black" neighborhoods are not wealthy areas so money is not an issue. But, it's true that the non-Black areas have less crime and greater investment. As an example, an area of town that is becoming more and more Hispanic got tired of years of neglect with the public schools and created a charter school in their neighborhood. Today, that school has test scores equivalent to the state average and the neighborhood benefits from that. I happen to know that well because I live in that neighborhood. Until folks in the neighborhood take an interest and PRIDE in themselves and where they live, the status quo will continue. |
Downtown_lady
Member
Username: Downtown_lady
Post Number: 495
Registered: 08-2008
| | Posted on Friday, January 02, 2009 - 9:03 am: | |
Gnome, regarding me lighting up a Newport (I've never smoked a cigarette, and I don't drink pop, grape or otherwise), I'm not sure what you're smoking but your post is in no way, shape or form relevant to me or anything that I wrote, even though it appears your post is directed at me.
I'm not doubting how much Goat has done in Windsor. I made that clear. Not the issue. I'm not ignorant. I don't wear church lady hats.
quote:Ah, how about showing up to a work day at the Fort. Or maybe a softball game under the bridge. Or canvass for signatures to remove a crook from office. Or rally outside City Hall. Or read some books to children, dig the soil, cook a meal with Cub at Georgia Street.
So the paths you've chosen and listed above are the only way to help the community? I do plenty but does it not qualify if it's not on your Gnome-sanctioned list of volunteer activities?
I did canvass for signatures to remove a crook from office. (It seems that you make a lot of assumptions.) And while I wanted to come to the softball game, I have this thing called a job that prevented me from being there on a Wednesday afternoon. I remember your comment: "Being flexible makes you popular." But see Gnome, "Skipping out on work early makes you unemployed."
As for your "codespeak for The Other", please re-read the thread and then re-read my post. That was not an issue on this thread and certainly not from me. I don't know if the mention of division and xenophobia is directed at me or people in general, but it's kind of from left field as it was not an issue on this thread. But you threw in Frostbacks again. Even though Goat being Canadian was only mentioned by one person who since deleted the post. But please keep mentioning it even though it's not relevant to this discussion.
quote:Keep that, "We don't need nobody ceptin' ourselves" kind of thinking. It sure is working good. Keep that, "just send us the money" kind of dreaming and it will certainly work. Keep doing that same stuff, don't accept any new ideas, certainly not from Frostbacks, and we'll keep getting to same results.
Along the way, make sure you blame Redford Twp for stealing your students, and for Birmingham for stealing your spenders, and Red Lobster for stealing your customers. Keep that blame thing going. Blame The Other, the Outsider, the Grandchildren of The Leavers. Monica Conyers has made a life out of it, no reason other folk can't join in.
While you're doing that, pour yourself another Grape Faygo, light up a Newport and just thank god that everyone is hitting 8 Mile Road.
I don't know if any of these random comments are directed at me? They are certainly not relevant to me or anything I wrote.
Maybe they're directed to people that might actually feel the way you describe??? I don't know exactly what any of that relates to in this discussion.
I'll repeat what I said above. I thought I made it clear but I'll try again: I'm not disagreeing with Goat's message. I'm disagreeing with Goat's attack. It's interesting to me that your response to me was a reiteration about Goat's message.
See, if I agree with Goat's message and you agree with Goat's message, then you and I agree (transitive property). So you and I are in agreement about all the Detroit stuff, OK? It seems you want to debate me on opinions that I don't have. Seemingly, you just assigned those opinions to me so that you could debate them. |
Pam
Member
Username: Pam
Post Number: 4788
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Friday, January 02, 2009 - 9:08 am: | |
quote:Even though Goat being Canadian was only mentioned by one person who since deleted the post.
That was me, but I did not delete it. Must have been an Admin. delete. |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 3650
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Friday, January 02, 2009 - 10:26 am: | |
>Gnome
So where is the part where you blast Goat for shitting on your city? Or do you also believe that every single resident of Detroit voted for Kwame Kilpatrick? And that every single person who voted for Kilpatrick didn't mind his abuse of power? Or that every citizen of Detroit is apathetic about high crime rates and bad school systems? Do you believe that every citizen of Detroit sits on their ass waiting to be saved by someone else? |
Gnome
Member
Username: Gnome
Post Number: 2207
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Friday, January 02, 2009 - 1:08 pm: | |
no, just you |
Goat
Member
Username: Goat
Post Number: 2972
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 02, 2009 - 1:14 pm: | |
My "attack" is justified in the fact the Detroiters are known as hard working people with a hard attitude. So I decided to instead put away all of the nonsense jargon and go for the throat. Reality is a shit-kicker when it stares right back at you. So pick up a mirror Detroiters and look to see if you are either a problem solver or not. Doing nothing puts you in the same position as those who are doing the destruction. The street cred motto has to go! That starts with the police and their budget and numbers.
Someone mentioned above that an attitude change is needed. To that I agree 100%! The days of "give me the money" are about over we are "bailed-out" to death and more money isn't coming. Therefore either have a made in Detroit solution or continue to live in the style that has given Detroit it's reputation.
As for not living in Detroit, I am there enough for it to be a part of my city and a part of my life. If people think a river changes everything think again. The same mentality in Detroit permeates into Windsor. Both cities are very similar except for the amount of violence and gun crime.
My issue is the constant complaining with little action. The constant blame game and the constant attitude of "help me, but help me the way I want to be helped IE: Money". If you are starving you don't bitch about the food being served!
For 40 years it has been the same crap over and over with little change. A city cannot survive on a few people who are trying to make a difference. Bless their hearts but for meow's sake where is everyone else? Band together and be heard!
Gnome, thanks for your post. It is nice to know that some people understand the difficulties people have in dealing with bureacracy. It isn't easy and in fact it helps to destroy the fire that keep a person going but we must overcome and demand better, even of ourselves.
This thread, though hijacked by me, isn't about me. It is about the state of Detroit (and Windsor, to me anyway) and the apathy of the residents.
Iheartthed, no one is saying EVERY citizen but when a city is in such a state of disrepair, it may take more than the norm. So either stand up and take ownership or continue to wallow in self-made pity. |
Leannam1989
Member
Username: Leannam1989
Post Number: 159
Registered: 06-2008
| | Posted on Friday, January 02, 2009 - 2:25 pm: | |
[quote]Maybe a big thing Detroit needs is outsiders not spewing their blatantly ignorant, and likely racist, bullshit everywhere.
Prime example:"when Detroiters stop treating welfare as a career"[/quote]
I'm not saying all Detroiters are on welfare all the time. I'm saying some. I live in southeast Missouri and a lot of these things apply to where I live also. The insinuation that I'm a racist is just plain stupid. I admitted that I've never been to Detroit. I appreciate that you don't agree. But calling me racist just negates any good points you may have.
My point was that sometimes the biggest thing a city needs is citizens who will work to make the city better. And I realize there are people doing it. But I think the "God helps those who help themselves" thing has some ring of truth to it. You can pump money into any city. If the residents are not going to use it correctly, then what's the point?
I realize there are people in Detroit who care about the city, and volunteer, and do what they can. If there weren't, this website probably wouldn't exist. However, I'm sure, as with any city, there are people in the city of Detroit who do not care. There are probably people in the city of Detroit who are just fine with things the way they are.
I'm NOT a racist. Trust me. I'm just saying, part of Detroit's renaissance is going to need to come from the citizens themselves. Calling anyone who disagrees with you a "racist" will not get you anywhere. |
Goat
Member
Username: Goat
Post Number: 2976
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 02, 2009 - 2:35 pm: | |
Leannam1989, but that is the fall back everytime. If someone doesn't agree with you there will always be someone to state you are a racist. It is how things get done (or don't) in Detroit and many other floundering places. Again, easier to blame than to fix the problems. |
Lilpup
Member
Username: Lilpup
Post Number: 5102
Registered: 06-2004
| | Posted on Friday, January 02, 2009 - 2:40 pm: | |
quote:I'm NOT a racist. Trust me.
Trust is earned and not by asinine, ill-informed commentary. Your 'welfare as a career' comment was totally unjustified. What prompted you to make it? |
Leannam1989
Member
Username: Leannam1989
Post Number: 160
Registered: 06-2008
| | Posted on Friday, January 02, 2009 - 2:55 pm: | |
Basically, what I've read about basically all cities. It's not a Detroit-only thing. I know people out here in the boonies who treat welfare as a career also. And it's not a racist thing, either. I know lots of white people who don't work and don't want to work either. I am not saying it is the norm in Detroit. I'm saying that if the city wants to grow and prosper, then maybe this is one thing that needs to change. I'm not saying it's the fault of anyone but the people doing it. However, in any city you will have people who only want to live off the government. They can work. They'd rather just get a welfare check. I'm not saying it's the norm at all. I'm saying that it's one of many things that can hold a city back from reaching its potential. From what I've seen, Detroit has a lot of potential.
You don't have to agree with my opinion or anyone else's. I realize Detroiters are probably jaded with all the criticism and unfair comments of outsiders. Maybe my comment was unfair. I admit that. It doesn't make me a racist.
If Detroiters want to draw people back to the city and the region, then the attitude of "everyone is against me" or "people who don't like me are racist" needs to stop. If the city wants to grow, it needs to be friendly to people from other areas, even if they are "ignorant". I'm sure the people of Detroit are very friendly, but nobody wants to move to a place where if they say a wrong word then they get labeled as racist or maybe they'll get hurt. Obviously this is a forum, nobody can hurt me physically. But the "we don't need outsiders" thing doesn't work. Because the city keeps shrinking. And calling those who don't agree with you "Racist" or "Canadian" isn't going to help the view of the rest of the country. And the view of the rest of the country at least matters a little bit. The city can't grow if you don't draw people from all parts of the country. This city needs an image change. |
Crumbled_pavement
Member
Username: Crumbled_pavement
Post Number: 641
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Friday, January 02, 2009 - 3:04 pm: | |
I agree Goat. Sort of like people saying your dissenters see you as a Frostback (whatever that is) because they don't agree with your methods.
I guess life really is a two way street. Too bad we can only see one direction. |
Ragtoplover59
Member
Username: Ragtoplover59
Post Number: 440
Registered: 09-2006
| | Posted on Friday, January 02, 2009 - 3:44 pm: | |
Lilpup
'welfare as a career'
It is a sad reality in some places.
In my town, 600 miles away from the problems of Detroit, I can show you where middle age parents and their teenage kids went to visit Grandma for Christmas. To Grandmas house we go? Grandma lives in the same Housing Project that she raised her kids in starting oh so many years ago?
Grandma shouldn't need to leave her house, where will she go, This is all she's ever had or will have!
We build Houses for Habitat for people like her, just not at the pace needed to house everyone now? The houses go to the younger people to enable them to start a Happy Life!
Many people like Grandma are happy enough staying in her safe secure place. This is where her life and memories are!
We don't necessarily call it a Career, But in the end, when it's all said and done, It was! |
Lilpup
Member
Username: Lilpup
Post Number: 5103
Registered: 06-2004
| | Posted on Friday, January 02, 2009 - 5:18 pm: | |
Maybe it was true in Grandma's day but Michigan now has a four year lifetime limit on assistance benefits.
Furthermore the idea of needing to attract newcomers to the region is bogus. The metro area has 4.5 million people. The sprawl needs to stop.
(Message edited by lilpup on January 02, 2009) |
Lilpup
Member
Username: Lilpup
Post Number: 5104
Registered: 06-2004
| | Posted on Friday, January 02, 2009 - 5:36 pm: | |
And, once again, remember that it's THE GREAT LAKES STATES plus a few others that are supporting much of the rest of the country. |
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