Post Number: 1812
|Posted on Wednesday, February 18, 2009 - 1:50 pm: || |
Right, 'rise, but in order to have an economy you have to have some reason why businesses would open up shop in your area. An economy is an effect of how you run your community, not a cause.
To fix the economy regionally, you look at three things:
1. What are growth-economy companies looking for in a region?
2. Which of those things do we offer? We might need to promote those things better (e.g. Metro Parks, all of our water)
3. Which of those things do we not offer? We might need to try to offer those things (e.g. decent transit)
Post Number: 8
|Posted on Wednesday, February 18, 2009 - 1:52 pm: || |
The biggest issue IMO is education. The educational system is a complete failure. Bad schools means that residents will leave the city for better schools, shrinking the tax base. Bad schools mean that families will not move here and the city pays for it in the upcoming census. The structure that is in place is broken and the kids are losing every single day.
Post Number: 59
|Posted on Wednesday, February 18, 2009 - 2:02 pm: || |
Education hands down. With education you have jobs, with jobs you have lower crime. Going to school teaches responsibility, and with responsibility comes improved neighborhoods.
Imagine is suddenly Detroit became known for it's amazing public schools where all the kids graduated and they were smart and ready for college or other careers. Imagine the population rush ...
Post Number: 3789
|Posted on Wednesday, February 18, 2009 - 2:09 pm: || |
I've read four articles in the NY Times today alone about the economic situation in Detroit. How the majority consensus on this board does not agree that this is the number one issue facing Detroit is beyond me... Maybe that's why Michigan has been in a 10 year recession?
Post Number: 3008
|Posted on Wednesday, February 18, 2009 - 2:17 pm: || |
>>What would you say is detroit's biggest issue
the mindset of its residents.
>>and first priority issue.
seek immediate emergency intervention on all municipal levels from state and federal authorities.
Post Number: 2084
|Posted on Wednesday, February 18, 2009 - 2:48 pm: || |
"Diversify the economy but embrace and feel pride in our legacy..."
Oh, I definitely embrace and feel proud of our legacy of building ships, making cigars, and manufacturing stoves, among other long-running Detroit industries. We were very innovative here from 1701 to about 1910 in terms of providing all kinds of jobs to people.
Then, we hitched ourselves to one "horse" for about 90 years, much to our detriment. Nice to see that we're getting "unhitched" and thinking more broadly these days.
Post Number: 833
|Posted on Wednesday, February 18, 2009 - 4:52 pm: || |
Detroit definitely needs economic development.
And there needs to be a way to educate the public on city issues and raise the level of thinking among the majority of the citizens. I get the impression that the school board meetings are better-attended than the city council meetings. I've a feeling there's a lot of untapped energy that could be directed by PTA's or churches or neighborhood organizations.
Detroit needs some good leadership.
Post Number: 1722
|Posted on Wednesday, February 18, 2009 - 7:43 pm: || |
Detroit certainly needs economic development, but there will be no (or negative) economic development until other fundamental problems are addressed. As Prof and others have stated, the city has to provide sound basic services - education, police, fire, garbage pickup, responsive city employees, etc. And, it has to demonstrate that it can provide those services over some period of time.
The biggest single problem that precludes folks from moving into the city is the failed school system. Until the school system improves measurably, the population in Detroit will continue to drop and folks with kids will stay away. In fact, I would expect the population to continue dropping for the next 20-35 years, bottoming out somewhere in the 600-700,000 range, if basic services and education aren't dramatically improved.
Detroit has reached the stage where it now necessary for the city to provide people and businesses with great, or even outstanding reasons, for relocating and/or staying in the city. The city is going to have to go out into the world and convince those people and businesses. The perception of Detroit to those outside of Detroit and Michigan is horrible. It's going to be a tough sell and it won't happen until basic services and education is drastically improved.
Post Number: 961
|Posted on Wednesday, February 18, 2009 - 10:12 pm: || |
Post Number: 447
|Posted on Wednesday, February 18, 2009 - 10:52 pm: || |
No, no, and NO to most of the stuff you're saying here... especially about the schools. WHICH American metropolis over 1 million residents has good schools??? Sure, some are marginally better than Detroit, but I can't let such a fallacy slide.
People with means EVERYWHERE either pay for private education or move to the 'burbs. That is not a SE Michigan phenomenon. Since when does the middle or upper class move to Chicago or L.A. or even NYC for good public K-12 education! Please.
The magic formula that Detroit needs is to be a beacon for self-supporting IMMIGRANTS. THAT is what all of the above thriving cities that aren't "creative class" beacons have in common. All of those immigrants the Sun Belt doesn't want? If they're entrepreneurial, law-abiding, and don't mind our winters, LET THEM APPLY TO COME HERE. Check them out thoroughly, but ease the process for those willing to live and set up shop in the city of Detroit.
There are people who want to live in America for all sorts of reasons. They bring with them what many of the ancestors of CURRENT Detroiters and Detroit-area residents brought -- a work ethic, an optimistic attitude, in some cases an education or skill, etc. Many live in conditions in their home countries where even a Detroit would be preferable to where they live.
This is a city that can hold 2-3 million people -- we don't have even a million -- WE HAVE THE ROOM -- WE NEED A TAX BASE AND A MIDDLE CLASS -- WHOSOEVER WILL, LET THEM COME.
Of course, we won't exclude Americans. We Americans will do what Americans in these latter days do -- chase the fad. Once Detroit is a thriving green metropolis, a city that's unlike any other on the planet, let alone the country, and immigrants know they can come here, start a business, buy/restore/build a home, and contribute to the city-owned commercial organic gardens (yes, I lean left), people will come.
We have the chance to build this place into the first 21st century green metropolis. All we need are the people.
Post Number: 1247
|Posted on Wednesday, February 18, 2009 - 11:06 pm: || |
^If we had jobs, the people would come on their own.
Post Number: 688
|Posted on Wednesday, February 18, 2009 - 11:15 pm: || |
Our problems to a large extent are interconnected so you have bad schools which is connected to unemployment which is connected to crime and so on. I would like to see the city take a Kalamazoo Promise approach which not only helped the schools but was a economic development tool for the city. It could be done on a small basis to see if it is workable then expanded if feasible.
Post Number: 449
|Posted on Wednesday, February 18, 2009 - 11:51 pm: || |
"If we had jobs, the people would come on their own."
Agreed. That's why we need to give immigrants incentives to set up businesses. This will create jobs. Native-born Americans will them come.
A radical change is needed. What Ford did more than 100 years ago here was radical. All of the ideas I have to improve Detroit are radical. Immigration and urban farming is the beginning.
There are people who would like to become Americans, who are productive, and are chomping at the bit for opportunity. The Sun Belt is overflowing with them. They (up until recently) had the jobs, but they don't have the natural resources to sustain their population. We do have the natural resources -- we did just fine when our population was doubled mid-century -- but we don't have the jobs.
We need people + jobs in order to have better schools, more favorable tax and insurance rates. Improve the quality of life and you lower crime. Ever hear of the broken windows theory? Some of it might be b.s., but I think there's something to it.
American industry doesn't want to relocate to the city of Detroit because they do not believe there is the human capital. People don't want to move to Detroit because there are no jobs.
So where do we get job-creating people from???
The same place America has ALWAYS gotten them from:
Tell me why it won't work. Granted, I think it's impossible in today's weird political climate to change national immigration policy to benefit places like Detroit. However, this is a problem of political and socioeconomic will, not because it's not tenable. Thoughts?
Post Number: 33
|Posted on Thursday, February 19, 2009 - 3:31 am: || |
Get that big severed arm taken down, the one you see on Jefferson as you enter downtown. That's just really negative.
Post Number: 116
|Posted on Thursday, February 19, 2009 - 9:20 am: || |
Wow, English -- you took the words right out of my mouth. I've actually proposed almost exactly the same immigration idea that you described to friends and colleagues on several occasions!
I couldn't agree more on the schools issue. Education in urban areas is a national, if not global, conundrum. The fact that it is arguably worse in Detroit than in other large cities is just a symptom of the city's economic and social woes. This is by no means exclusively a Detroit problem.
Education is a catalyst, but it won't cause a reaction unless you introduce the right elements. People look at graduation rates in Detroit and blame the schools, as if the teachers aren't as qualified or aren't trying as hard as suburban teachers, when the fact is that so many students simply aren't entering school with the values and advocacy from home that are necessary for them to be successful. Schools can do a lot, but they can't replace that foundation.
Now you look at families that come from generations of poverty and have a hard time breaking the cycle, and it's a lot to ask teachers -- people who are trained on how to teach academic content -- to fix social ills. I think that immigrant families may have more success with education because they are probably more hopeful and not resigned to accepting a life in which they don't rise to their potential. Immigrants may value the opportunity for education more because, for as bad as folks say DPS is, it may be much better than what they had in their home country.
Anyway, I totally agree that if you bring in optimistic, scrappy people who see this city as an opportunity rather than a graveyard and you've got something. You get immigrant families like many of those in Southwest who are not complacent or apathetic, but hard-working and forward-looking. Whenever I hear about the U.S. cracking down on illegal immigration in Texas or California I think, "Don't send them back across the border -- send them to Detroit! It's a win-win!"
Post Number: 451
|Posted on Thursday, February 19, 2009 - 11:10 am: || |
Waymooreland, so glad to see that another person sees the obvious solution.
I see present-day Detroit's depopulation and empty structures as an opportunity. No other American city is as poised to "lift its lamp beside the golden door" for immigrants as Detroit. No other American city is as uniquely poised to rebuild our infrastructure and economy as green. We have lots of urban pioneers who are on the vanguard, some of them here on the forum... all we need is the political will.
"We hope for better things; it will arise from the ashes." That simple prayer of Fr. Gabriel Richard has come down through the centuries to bless our phoenix city time and again. I have the faith to believe it will not fail us now.
Post Number: 92
|Posted on Thursday, February 19, 2009 - 4:51 pm: || |
The biggest issue facing detroit is the systemic culture of denial.
When the crime rate in detroit is brought up, too many sheeple counter by saying "yeah, crime is high in other cities too". The same type of response is used when issues of Blight, Poor EMS / Police Response, Political Corruption, Unemployment, Polarization, Failing Schools, Voter Ignorance, etc. Yes, other cities have these same issues. A very few suffer from all of them. None to the degree to which detroit does.
Acknowledging the problem is the first step. When you read that 70% of detroiters would not vote for Kilpatrick again, that means that roughly 30% would indeed vote for him. In context, if Kilpatrick's name were on the ballet next week that 30% could very well be enough. Sounds like a whole lotta denial to me.
Post Number: 611
|Posted on Thursday, February 19, 2009 - 5:06 pm: || |
No try 7%, not 30% that would definitly vote for KK.
Post Number: 93
|Posted on Thursday, February 19, 2009 - 5:26 pm: || |
12% PROBABLY would not vote for Kilpatrick
7% PROBABLY would vote for him
7% DEFINITELY would vote for him
Alright not exactly 30%. But a potential 26% is still alarming and more than enough to support my premise. Your response is further proof of the systemic culture of denial that continues to plague the city.
(Message edited by detrola on February 19, 2009)
Post Number: 94
|Posted on Friday, February 20, 2009 - 3:54 pm: || |
...and the sheeple are silent.
Post Number: 612
|Posted on Friday, February 20, 2009 - 4:07 pm: || |
Not a sheeple, and definitly not silent. 70% is a pretty high number of people. I wouldn't vote for KK, but there are 7% who think he did alot for the city when he was in office, go figure.
Post Number: 1142
|Posted on Friday, February 20, 2009 - 4:56 pm: || |
Access to jobs that pay a halfway decent and liveable wage.
Post Number: 5786
|Posted on Friday, February 20, 2009 - 5:30 pm: || |
Funny that you transalate "12% PROBABLY would not vote for Kilpatrick " as a potential vote.
Your premise went from 30% would to 26% potentially would without consideration that 12% of those would 'probably not'.
Seems you are focusing on the people you want to hear to support your beliefs and ignoring the rest.
You talk about people deferring about crime but you seem to ignore the many, many people that are begging the oplice and city admistration for help everyday. Get out and get to know people before your entire opinion is formed based upon a bullshit message board or snippets on the news.
People in this city know the issues, they ask for help, they work in their communities, they do what they can. You don't seem to intersted in those opinions.
Post Number: 5787
|Posted on Friday, February 20, 2009 - 5:33 pm: || |
Hope (which comes from education and jobs)
Less sympathetic courts
correcting the huge legacy costs we carry
better coordination of the many community and non-profit groups that work their butts off
Post Number: 613
|Posted on Friday, February 20, 2009 - 9:49 pm: || |
"better coordination of the many community and non-profit groups that work their butts off"
I agree, many people still are a part of organizations that care for their nieghborhoods.
Post Number: 2085
|Posted on Friday, February 20, 2009 - 10:40 pm: || |
English's posts are the most sane and logical of any in this thread.
Post Number: 5
|Posted on Friday, February 20, 2009 - 11:32 pm: || |
Post Number: 95
|Posted on Saturday, February 21, 2009 - 12:40 am: || |
"Probably would not" leaves open the possibility that they would vote Kilpatrick. The fact that only 70% would definitely not vote for Kilpatrick is alarming in a city that delivered 98% or more of their vote to the democratic candidate for president in the last three elections. With all the evidence of KK's crimes, what does it say about detroit voters that 26% suggest they would vote for, or refused to rule out voting for him. The Kilpatrick issue is but one example that supports my basic premise that the number one issue facing the the city is the systemic culture of denial.
You suggest that I get out and meet the people that work in their communities. I worked for the detroit recreation department for over 17 years. During my tenure with the city I worked with the following groups: Southwest Detroit Improvement Association, Southwest Detroit Business Association, Southwest Detroit Community Recreation League, Southwest Detroit Graffiti Free Collaborative, ACCESS, Matrix Youth Theater, Mexicantown Community Development corp, Greening of Detroit, Bridging Communities, The Greenways Initiative, and many more.
The culture of denial is not shared by the many non profits that are making a difference in detroit. Sadly these fine groups are outnumbered by the hopelessly stupid voters whose poor choices, apathy, and denial continue to foster an environment that makes their existence necessary in the first place. Ever bother to ask why detroit needs so many non profits and volunteers? To not ask is to deny the truth.
I know and have worked with the many good people who toil each day to make detroit better. These intelligent productive citizens of detroit are not the sheeple of which I speak. My opinions are not based on "...message boards or snippets on the news." My opinions are based on the electorite that voted for the Kilpatricks, Monica Conyers, Barbara Rose Collins, Alonzo Bates, etc, etc, etc. My opinions are based on the lack of outrage over so many things in the city that are not the way things are supposed to be.
There are places where one can leave their garage door open without having items stolen. There are places where the streetlights work. There are places where the police will come to your house in a reasonable amount of time for even the smallest of crimes. There are places where the 911 systems works as it should. There are places where banks, gas stations, and party stores do not have bullet proof glass.
This is the way it is supposed to be. This is the way things are in most places. The culture of denial allows too many to accept that which most people find unacceptable. Denial of the facts led to the election of candidates who continue to let detroit wallow in the detritus of it's once majestic self. Detroit will break your heart over and over with the history of what it once was and the as yet unfulfilled promise of what it could again be. If only...
Post Number: 698
|Posted on Saturday, February 21, 2009 - 2:02 am: || |
"The biggest issue facing detroit is the systemic culture of denial."
Detrola, I like that terminology as it applies to Detroit. What we really need to understand is why there is a culture of denial and what can be done to improve or elimate it.
I maintain that what we are seeing in Detroit is the result of the unrelenting attack on the middle class going back to the Reagan administration. The middle class in Detroit is based on manufacturing. Due to years of supply side economics,free trade agreements,bad management decisions of the big three you have a shrinking of the middle class, with manufacturing on life support and what middle class is left is leaving Detroit proper if not out of state. The school system had its issues years ago when its main mission was to give its students a basic level of literacy so they could go to work in the factory. How can the school system prepare its students for what's needed now?
The denial comes when people think Oh its just a down cycle.. it will come back it always does!
Problem is this time its not coming back, too much has been lost and Detroiters being a leading indicator of all things bad when it comes to the economy are victims of circumstances beyond their control.
So what do we do? A lot of the issues mentioned in this thread are symptons and hammering away at those won't really solve our problems.
The key is finding exceptional political leadership(locally and nationally) which will in turn will find and bring industries that will work for Detroit and Detroiters. This in turn will strengthen the
tax base which will then enable you to attack the other problems that affect quality of life here.
As citizens of the city we must demand a level of transparency and accountablity that our politicans have never had to give us in the past.
The tools are out there for that to happen.
The first thing we need to demand from the folks that want to be mayor is What is your Marshall Plan for Detroit? and if you don't have one you need to get one and it better make sense otherwise don't waste the voters time.
(Message edited by firstandten on February 21, 2009)
Post Number: 757
|Posted on Saturday, February 21, 2009 - 2:09 pm: || |
Type Sao Paulo mass transit in Google and see why mass transit is NOT the high priority that our leaders and transit advocates claim it is.
Sao Paulo has massive slums that Detroit will get more of unless we unionize Wal-Mart and Target or get them to pay for basic essential services with the same taxes that workers pay first.
It makes no sense to me to pay for SMART and DDOT with Wal-Mart wages when they require $35 per hour old school Union floor sweeper auto job level incomes to support them. This kind of money to support them at the local level no longer exists for the average worker.
It costs over $22 per passenger to run our present public bus systems. The answer is privatize as companies are begging to locate here that can provide the same basic service for less then half the cost and are safer, faster and on time.
Yet, the NEW county fast food taxes for SMART and DDOT are coming with no state funding from MDOT and only the promise of federal transit grants.
A NO vote next August 2010 to defeat the SMART property tax only caps the tax. This will not hurt SMART, it's workers or customers or mass transit.
Post Number: 1653
|Posted on Saturday, February 21, 2009 - 6:09 pm: || |
I agree with English that the issue of poor public schools in Detroit is a "big-city" problem and not just a "Detroit" problem. For years I have heard about how bad Chicago public schools are, yet people rave about how great it is living in Chicago. So the "schools" thing is not Detroit's main problem.
Besides what were graduation rates among males back in the 1940s and 1950s. My father dropped out of high school after 9th grade, but eventually worked for Ford for 44 years. The difference today is that that job at Ford for a man with a 9th grade education isn't there anymore.
I also agree with English regarding attracting immigrants to Detroit. Americans from other places will not come to Detroit, and suburbanites will not come back in droves for whatever reason. However, immigrants looking for the American dream might be persuaded to come to Detroit, especially immigrants from a similar climate, like the Chinese from climates in China that are similar to Detroit.
Detroit's biggest issue today is the catch-22 between crime and a lack of entreprenual spirit and initiative. Many citizens in Detroit would not be in poverty if they owned the businesses found in their communities. However, many citizens have chosen jobs in the auto industry, government, or education instead of owning businesses themselves because of the fear of crime. The result is that others, mostly immigrants, have accepted the risks associated with owning a business in Detroit and are now in much better financial positions than Detroiters who chose not to become entrepreneurs.
There are other factors that play a role in the issues that Detroit faces. Few topics concerning Detroit can be summed up neatly. And there are no "magic" wands that can instantly make Detroit's issues go away. However, at some point some drastic measures will have to made by the people of Detroit or their elected officials if Detroit is going to end its continuing downward spiral into oblivion.
Post Number: 180
|Posted on Saturday, February 21, 2009 - 7:11 pm: || |
Fatherless children. Babies having babies.
Post Number: 546
|Posted on Saturday, February 21, 2009 - 7:22 pm: || |
I agree with much of your post, especially "...because of the fear of crime..."
I would add the reluctance to work 16 or more hours a day, which is often required in order to keep an independent business going.
ps: Are you a musician?
Post Number: 1654
|Posted on Saturday, February 21, 2009 - 11:49 pm: || |
No, Bobl. You might have me confused with the singer Royce579 or 359. I am a teacher.
Post Number: 138
|Posted on Sunday, February 22, 2009 - 2:24 am: || |
Having tens of thousands of citizens who could care less about the lives of their fellow citizens is the biggest problem. Whether this is a systemic issue because of education, governments, policy, etc or a social problem because of welfare, fatherless families, bad parenting etc the end result is the same. There is no accountability in the city, there hasn't been any in 40+ years.
Until there is accountability at the top and at the bottom, things won't change. It has a lot less to do with the economy than people think, even when the economy in the U.S. is good Detroit still suffered. Education is a root problem but you have to have a system where kids actually believe going to school will benefit them and that isn't going to happen in Detroit anytime soon. Even I'd rather sling dope than get my HS diploma, drop out of college if I get that far, and face a life of crappy jobs and disappointment.
It's the culture, and the culture in the city isn't changing. Now that the economy is killing the suburbs some people who never cared for what was going on in the city are starting to relate. Might be a good time to fix what ails the city, but it's gonna take a lot of money, a lot of time, and hundreds of people with influence to actually care about the family living on Maryland Street who is clinging to welfare with three kids who will most likely end up in jail or dead by 30. :2cents: