 
Detmsp
Member
Username: Detmsp
Post Number: 75
Registered: 08-2008
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 25, 2009 - 2:56 pm: |    |
Fnemecek, I understand how you feel that focusing on downtown instead of neighborhoods is a big mistake, but you've got this situation reversed.
Rennovating Cobo is not about the sinking millions of dollars of investment into the facility while ignoring the neighborhoods.... it's the opposite of that!!!! By rejecting the deal, the city is forced to continue to blow $15-20 million a year (that could be spent on neighborhoods) on maintaining the facility. The alternative is to approve the plan and get $20 million (that could be used for neighborhoods) and be freed of a huge liability for years to come.
If you want the city to invest more in services and neighborhoods, you should want this deal to pass. |
Digitalvision
Member
Username: Digitalvision
Post Number: 1386
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 25, 2009 - 3:05 pm: | |
There's Cobo fatigue only because our leadership is incompetent, just like the issues of arson and police presence. The issue is one in the same, as I see it.
Getting Cobo off of Detroit's books would of been $15m a year that could go to those admittedly more important priorities.
So by NOT doing a deal, I think the neighborhood priorities are hurt and the council has chosen control of Cobo over having more resources to do the core job. It, financially, is a liability - a financial liability the council obviously believes is more important to pay in order to maintain control than cops or firefighters.
And that's why you should be pissed about this, Fnemecek. |
Novine
Member
Username: Novine
Post Number: 1144
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 25, 2009 - 3:06 pm: | |
"I have to believe that Detroit is a big portion of the Wayne County revenue on hotels and liquor."
Here's from the 2007 State report of the liquor tax revenues specifically collected for the "State Convention Facility Development Act" which is used to pay the debt for Cobo.
Macomb County $3,113,892
Oakland $4,900,536
Wayne $4,279,349
Detroit City $4,794,008
Based on these numbers, it would appear that the current board arrangement that gives each county an equal along with Detroit isn't out of line with how the revenues from the convention fund come from each body.
http://www.michigan.gov/docume nts/dleg/2007StatBook_238029_7 .pdf
An even more compelling argument was provided by the city council's own analyis here:
"Of the $357.3 million that has been distributed to Detroit for the sole purpose of
retiring the debt service on the 1985 Cobo Hall expansion, $124.4 million or 34%
came from taxes collected in the city of Detroit on both liquor and hotel accommodations. According to the state act, then the funds from the accommodations tax from the 3 counties ($220 million) was applied to the debt service and then if there was any remaining shortfall, it would come from the three counties liquor tax, which is roughly $12 million. There were 2 years prior
to 1991, that a negligible amount of the out state county liquor tax was used to cover debt service, according to the Act's formula, which totaled $270,000."
You can see from the final graphic that while Oakland County collects far more in hotel taxes than Detroit, Detroit has been by far the largest beneficiary of these funds. Care to continue to claim that Detroit is somehow being treated unfairly in the representation on the authority?
http://www.ci.detroit.mi.us/Le gislative/CouncilDivisions/Fis calAnalysis/Reports/State%20Co nvention%20Facility%20Develop% 20Act%207-18-07.pdf |
E_hemingway
Member
Username: E_hemingway
Post Number: 1532
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 25, 2009 - 3:08 pm: | |
Why the Cobo deal should be done now sans Auto Show reasons:
1) The facility's infrastructure is out of date and at the least needs a major renovation. Adding another 100,000 square feet while this is being done makes sense from a financial standpoint. That $300 million pays for the expansion, renovation and making it a regional entity.
2) Metro Detroit doesn't do regional cooperation well at all. When a rare opportunity to regionalize something as significant as Cobo comes along we should jump on it.
3) Cobo is a money loser for the city. Taking that annual $15 million obligation off the city's books while still letting it retain ownership goes a long way toward balancing the city's budget and keeping things like cops and firefighters on duty.
4) Metro Detroit and Michigan need a base hit right now, especially in this economic climate that has dragged on way too long. The Cobo deal isn't ideal, but it's still a good deal for the city, the region and state. We can't keep passing up opportunities like this. In this case we just took the two steps back without taking step forward. Everybody loses.
BTW Fnemeck, you don't have look through the ultra-special prism of living in a "regular neighborhood" to see something this obvious. The way you're rambling makes you sound like one of the Hendrix die-hards who drank another pitcher of campaign kool-aide. |
Fnemecek
Member
Username: Fnemecek
Post Number: 1935
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 25, 2009 - 3:20 pm: | |
All:
I need to clarify one thing: I'm not opposed to the Cobo deal. Or in favor it.
I'm just tired of hearing about the damn thing.
Approve the deal and move a few million off the City's books.
Reject it and say good-bye to the NAIAS.
Whatever.
I'm tired of hearing about this thing. |
Barebain
Member
Username: Barebain
Post Number: 27
Registered: 02-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 25, 2009 - 3:21 pm: | |
Now things are getting good. The last few posts have renewed my interest in this debate. Yes, I definitely get the sense that folks in Detroit are weary of the Cobo talk. But if what you say is true, that people would rather talk about the neighborhood than the latest downtown deal, then why Conyers so focused on the "asset" she claims Cobo is? If she and her ilk are really that focused on their constituents, then why do they even care about Cobo in the first place?
They care because this argument isn't about the details of the Cobo deal. They care because of their delusional egos and hopeless idealism. (Some more than others) |
Locke09
Member
Username: Locke09
Post Number: 3
Registered: 02-2009
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 25, 2009 - 3:46 pm: | |
Novine,
I found that link and looked at the data. You actually have to look at hotel and liquor tax. In the year in question, Cobo received $357,334,391 in hotel/liquor tax money. Detroit provided 34% of the hotel/liquor tax for Cobo ($124,441,437) and the 3 counties provided the remaining 66%. Then you add the 15-20 million the City gave out of its general fund. Of course, that drain would go away with an authority.
From the same graph, you can see that outstate counties also received far more in distributions than they paid that year. This is what leads to the "Why is Detroit treated differently?" discussion.
But you're right, it's pretty close to an equitable representation. Maybe as close as you can get. I still think there needs to be a way to break a stalemate and maybe a way for the City to retain ownership, even with the authority having control, as was done with the Zoo and other assets.
This is my first day posting here so I have to figure out how to format posts better. |
Southwestmap
Member
Username: Southwestmap
Post Number: 938
Registered: 01-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 25, 2009 - 3:58 pm: | |
Detroit is treated differently in the legislation because Detroit gets the other economic spin-off from the hall. |
Novine
Member
Username: Novine
Post Number: 1145
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 25, 2009 - 4:03 pm: | |
"I found that link and looked at the data."
That's actually a historical total, not one year's data. If the state collected $357 million of revenue in a year, Cobo would be overflowing with money.
"From the same graph, you can see that outstate counties also received far more in distributions than they paid that year. This is what leads to the "Why is Detroit treated differently?" discussion."
The outstate distributions take place because the state recognized that the economic impact of Cobo is limited outside of SE Michigan. Is it fair to take money from Marquette for Cobo? Probably not. As for "Why is Detroit treated differently?", I don't follow your point. Detroit makes out like a bandit under this system. Shouldn't places like Oakland County and Wayne County ask why they don't get their share of those dollars? |
Fnemecek
Member
Username: Fnemecek
Post Number: 1936
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 25, 2009 - 4:37 pm: | |
quote:Now things are getting good. The last few posts have renewed my interest in this debate. Yes, I definitely get the sense that folks in Detroit are weary of the Cobo talk. But if what you say is true, that people would rather talk about the neighborhood than the latest downtown deal, then why Conyers so focused on the "asset" she claims Cobo is?
Because she's freaking crazy. |
Locke09
Member
Username: Locke09
Post Number: 4
Registered: 02-2009
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 25, 2009 - 4:45 pm: | |
If I am reading the graph correctly, more money is being collected from Oakland and Wayne County than what is accounted for by the amount being distributed back to them plus the amount being distributed to Detroit for Cobo. The surplus is going somewhere.
Since the outstate counties are being distributed far more money than what is being collected from them, doesn't that imply that some of the money from Wayne and Oakland is going outstate?
Do Wayne and Oakland County complain about the amount going outstate and seek input into the outstate assets receiving that money? The answer might be "Yes", or I might not be reading the graph correctly. I'm just asking.
But if I am reading the graph correctly and the answer is "No", that is what leads to my question: "Is Detroit being viewed differently?". |
Bobby_wobby
Member
Username: Bobby_wobby
Post Number: 8
Registered: 02-2009
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 25, 2009 - 5:03 pm: | |
Yea Blk soul Cobo is yours as silly as that sounds,But Detroit is broke,the stimulus will not pay for Cobo,19 million a year is a lot of cops or trash picked up,Monica Conyers is a you tube joke,who must irritate the heck out of Obama. And when the city finally goes bankrupt, it wont own Cobo Hall or anything else. |
Stosh
Member
Username: Stosh
Post Number: 60
Registered: 01-2009
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 25, 2009 - 5:16 pm: | |
This quote is from the above City PDF analysis:
quote:Of the $357.3 million that has been distributed to Detroit for the sole purpose of
retiring the debt service on the 1985 Cobo Hall expansion, $124.4 million or 34%
came from taxes collected in the city of Detroit on both liquor and hotel
accommodations. According to the state act, then the funds from the
accommodations tax from the 3 counties ($220 million) was applied to the debt
service and then if there was any remaining shortfall, it would come from the
three counties liquor tax, which is roughly $12 million. There were 2 years prior
to 1991, that a negligible amount of the out state county liquor tax was used to
cover debt service, according to the Act's formula, which totaled $270,000. Also
according to the state act, if any liquor tax from the tri-counties remains after
covering the debt service, it is divided among all of the counties, but not with Detroit
The state act governing this is here:
STATE CONVENTION FACILITY DEVELOPMENT ACT, Act 106 of 1985
Seems to me that it makes no mention of Cobo Hall by name. Are there other convention facilities in the State? Also there are 2 revisions that take effect soon. |
Southwestmap
Member
Username: Southwestmap
Post Number: 939
Registered: 01-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 25, 2009 - 5:32 pm: | |
The description of the convention facility, while not naming it, fits only Cobo Center. |
Novine
Member
Username: Novine
Post Number: 1146
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 25, 2009 - 5:33 pm: | |
"Seems to me that it makes no mention of Cobo Hall by name."
Which is typical in state law. This avoids legal issues that come up when you write a law to address a specific location or city. Instead the law is written in a way that it can only apply to Cobo without saying Cobo. In the law, money goes to a "qualified local government", which is defined as:
"(3) As used in this act, "qualified local governmental unit" means a city, village, township, county, or authority that is located in, or includes within its territory or jurisdiction, a county in which convention hotels are located and that either is the owner or lessee of a convention facility with 350,000 square feet or more of total exhibit space on July 30, 1985 or, if such a convention facility does not exist, will be the owner or lessee of a convention facility with 350,000 square feet or more of total exhibit space through the application of distributions under this section to the purchase or lease of a convention facility."
Nothing besides Cobo qualifies under this language.
"Are there other convention facilities in the State?"
DeVos Place in Grand Rapids. They have their own revenue stream similar to what Cobo has but under a separate law. See this for details:
http://www.legislature.mi.gov/ documents/2005-2006/billanalys is/House/pdf/2005-HLA-5545-3.p df
Rock Financial in Novi is privately owned. There are some smaller facilities at various locations.
"Also there are 2 revisions that take effect soon."
I believe that both deal with the change in the law to allow the regional authority to run Cobo and funding from the state to assist with that. |
Wazootyman
Member
Username: Wazootyman
Post Number: 417
Registered: 02-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 25, 2009 - 5:48 pm: | |
Call me crazy, but I suspect that this decision will be reversed prior to Monday. It's just too crazy to be real. |
Atwater
Member
Username: Atwater
Post Number: 397
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 25, 2009 - 5:57 pm: | |
quote:Blksoul, you often provide the forum with pointed commentary that gives folks a (usually) well-supported alternative point of view.
"pointed commentary", "well-supported alternative point of view" ? Ha. Otherwise known as racist, pro-black, anti-white, anti-suburb hate speech. |
Lodgedodger
Member
Username: Lodgedodger
Post Number: 1540
Registered: 05-2008
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 25, 2009 - 6:12 pm: | |
Great, now Bing is slamming Cockrel for not having Council support. Bing needs to realize five members of that Council are bat-shit crazy. You can't reason with crazy. |
Thecarl
Member
Username: Thecarl
Post Number: 900
Registered: 04-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 25, 2009 - 6:21 pm: | |
hey, think any union reps or cobo insiders might have provided a little somethin-somethin for ms. conyers and a few other councilpersons? |
Leland_palmer
Member
Username: Leland_palmer
Post Number: 531
Registered: 08-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 25, 2009 - 6:45 pm: | |
Has anyone read the Financial Analysis on Cobo put toge there by Irvin Corley?
http://www.freep.com/article/2 0090225/MISC03/90225070
He could not identify the cost of construction Cobo Hall and Arena, and could not verify the cost of JLA. In the report his only sources for the Joe were a statement from the Detroit Building Authority and and article on WIKIPEDIA! Fortunatly he chose to go with the DBA figure. |
Fnemecek
Member
Username: Fnemecek
Post Number: 1938
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, February 26, 2009 - 9:46 am: | |
quote:Great, now Bing is slamming Cockrel for not having Council support. Bing needs to realize five members of that Council are bat-shit crazy. You can't reason with crazy.
Then you shouldn't structure a deal in such as way that it is conditional on crazy people doing something sensible. |
Novine
Member
Username: Novine
Post Number: 1151
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, February 26, 2009 - 10:51 am: | |
"Then you shouldn't structure a deal in such as way that it is conditional on crazy people doing something sensible."
Wow, something I agree with Fnemecek about. It was a mistake to write the legislation to require City Council's approval. It should have been done with the Mayor's OK. |
Swingline
Member
Username: Swingline
Post Number: 911
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 26, 2009 - 11:29 am: | |
The deal had to have CC approval of some sort because under the charter, CC approval is needed to sell, give, transfer city property. |
Detroitbill
Member
Username: Detroitbill
Post Number: 686
Registered: 09-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, February 26, 2009 - 11:51 am: | |
Its really pretty basic, an expanded Cobo puts Detroit in a better postion to compete for convention dollars which it very badly needs. We have put the hotels in, the casinos in, the restaurants in, and prettied up downtown as best we could given the times.. The core of this nucleus to a prospective convention is the space itself. Without a competitive facility its a no go. Its not just about losing the Auto Show, the one major event we still do well with, but luring others and diversifying. We , as a city , and region need to do this badly if we are ever going to get out of this slump, Its really our only option or, we might as well just pack it in. |
Novine
Member
Username: Novine
Post Number: 1153
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, February 26, 2009 - 11:59 am: | |
"The deal had to have CC approval of some sort because under the charter, CC approval is needed to sell, give, transfer city property."
Local governments only exist because the state legislature says they do. The state can do pretty much whatever it wants when it comes to local government, even under our home rule system in Michigan. If the legislature writes a law that excludes the Council, the city charter isn't a legal bar to them doing that. |
Fnemecek
Member
Username: Fnemecek
Post Number: 1940
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, February 26, 2009 - 3:42 pm: | |
quote:quote:Then you shouldn't structure a deal in such as way that it is conditional on crazy people doing something sensible.
Wow, something I agree with Fnemecek about. It was a mistake to write the legislation to require City Council's approval. It should have been done with the Mayor's OK.
LMAO!!! It was bound to happen sooner or later. |
English
Member
Username: English
Post Number: 467
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 26, 2009 - 3:52 pm: | |
Fnemecek: your posts are spot-on, my friend, in this thread. Growing up in Detroit's "neighborhoods", there was a lot of anti-downtown sentiment. "What will they do for the neighborhoods?" While it can be argued that people need to do stuff for their own neighborhoods it can't be plausibly denied that in other places, you get a lot more municipal bang for your local buck. I've only lived as an adult in Detroit and Ann Arbor -- the city of A2 and Washtenaw County do a TON of stuff that one could only dream of happening in a Detroit neighborhood.
Atwater: ""pointed commentary", "well-supported alternative point of view" ? Ha. Otherwise known as racist, pro-black, anti-white, anti-suburb hate speech."
What I don't get -- why is "pro-black" by necessity and extension "anti-white"? |
Fnemecek
Member
Username: Fnemecek
Post Number: 1941
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, February 26, 2009 - 11:30 pm: | |
English:
Thank you!
As an aside, I've lived in a few different cities (including A2). I miss having a functioning local government that actually delivers services to its taxpayers. |
Lodgedodger
Member
Username: Lodgedodger
Post Number: 1566
Registered: 05-2008
| | Posted on Friday, February 27, 2009 - 10:01 pm: | |
A posting on another thread gave me an idea:
Perhaps we should contact Lansing and ask them to hold the Cobo deal until the indictments are made known. After that, we will have a chance to get the deal passed.
Think it might work? |
Ray
Member
Username: Ray
Post Number: 580
Registered: 06-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, February 28, 2009 - 12:58 am: | |
This reminds me of when the guy tried to give $200 million for charter schools and he was drummed out of town by the these BIGOTS who run Detroit.
Guess what friends? You're about to get your wish. When the Big Three collapse, the last of the colleged educated, business building, tax paying, functional family raising white people you hate so much will leave, and Southeast Michigan will be your own little Minority Majority Showcase. Oh, you'll be the envy of the planet. Everyone will wish they too could live in the squalor and decay and poverty of your little 3rd World Empire. And when they see the efficient, productive, well run metropolis that you will build, they'll all shamefully admit how wrong they were to ever harbor secret thoughts that somehow the Black political elite of Detroit were too stupid to run the city.
(Message edited by ray on February 28, 2009) |
French777
Member
Username: French777
Post Number: 698
Registered: 10-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, February 28, 2009 - 9:43 am: | |
How many Police Officers could 15 Million Hire? hmmm...
50,000 Dollar Salary Just a Guess? Thats about 300 new officers!! |
Detroitrise
Member
Username: Detroitrise
Post Number: 3818
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, February 28, 2009 - 9:46 am: | |
It's worse than that French777, METRO Detroit will lose 450 million dollars (in revenue) when the Auto Show moves to Chicago.
The suburbs will be hurting too. |
Bob
Member
Username: Bob
Post Number: 1282
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, February 28, 2009 - 12:49 pm: | |
That guy who was giving money (Thompson) has slowly been giving his money to charter schools in the city. I believe the new one being built attached to the Science Center is one of his schools. |
Ray
Member
Username: Ray
Post Number: 582
Registered: 06-2004
| | Posted on Monday, March 02, 2009 - 12:06 am: | |
I have to aplogize to the forum and the world in general for my above remarks. Hate breeds hate and I vow not to slide any further into this morass. I just get so enraged I can't help meyself, but I realize the actions of the council are those of a flakey subgroup of the Black community, which unfortunately has wormed its way into power. |
Fnemecek
Member
Username: Fnemecek
Post Number: 1948
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Monday, March 02, 2009 - 12:23 am: | |
quote:How many Police Officers could 15 Million Hire? hmmm...
50,000 Dollar Salary Just a Guess? Thats about 300 new officers!!
The problem with that is we need a Mayor and City Council who are willing to do something productive like hiring new police officers.
The sad reality is that if $15 million came off the City's books because of the Cobo deal, they'd find something else to do with it that's mind-bogglingly stupid. |
Novine
Member
Username: Novine
Post Number: 1208
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Friday, March 06, 2009 - 4:27 pm: | |
More national coverage.
http://online.wsj.com/article/ SB123630387262847513.html |
Detroit313
Member
Username: Detroit313
Post Number: 794
Registered: 02-2006
| | Posted on Friday, March 06, 2009 - 4:52 pm: | |
WOW!
The Wall Street Journal!
Way to go Monica. I am thinking (hard) about writing her a letter and the rest of the council who blocked the proposal; clearly stopping economic progress.
Her reason for: "I DONT' SEE PEOPLE WORKING DOWN AT THE AUTOSHOW WHO LOOK LIKE ME"!
Did she ever ask the people if they applied for a job at the autoshow?
Bottom line is if Detroit loses the show, Monica wins (because she won't have to worry about finding her people a job anymore)
<313> |
Janesback
Member
Username: Janesback
Post Number: 519
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Friday, March 06, 2009 - 5:29 pm: | |
Since the auto business is hurting, doesnt she realize that Toyota and Honda have opened and built new plants in the south, Texas, Alabama, etc....and that this continous fighting will only deter big corporations and auto builders from dealing business in Detroit
That woman is single handedly taking Detroit back years and no one is doing anything about it |
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