 
Mackinaw
Member
Username: Mackinaw
Post Number: 4392
Registered: 02-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, February 26, 2009 - 7:13 pm: |    |
The 2030 Grand River destruction is appalling. What a waste of resources...and for what?
You could analogize some of our decrepit buildings to corpses laying scattered around the city. I can see how some reasonable people can justify removing them, although I look at those buildings as being in a coma that we can cure. But some of what's being lost is akin to slaying a perfectly healthy adult. Taxpayers should no more be in the business of killing perfectly productive buildings than they should be in the business of killing each other. This is our habitat that we live in. What are we trying to turn it into?
With any sort of publicity, you'd think that the cost-conscious tax payer (especially these days) would be up in arms about something like this, but because the publicity is not there, and because half the electorate thinks that if it's in Detroit is should be torn down, nothing is going to get in the way of this disaster. |
Sparty06
Member
Username: Sparty06
Post Number: 195
Registered: 03-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, February 26, 2009 - 7:16 pm: | |
Cost-conscious tax payer? In Detroit? |
Mackinaw
Member
Username: Mackinaw
Post Number: 4393
Registered: 02-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, February 26, 2009 - 7:31 pm: | |
And Novine's point up above about Ilitch's effect is a good one. By eliminating so many buildings large and small, and by having such a large holding of land, and by distorting downtown prices while he hangs the potential arena over everyone's head, you could say that he has stood in the way of organic growth by inflating prices and reducing availabilites (literally, by removing buildings). Perhaps we'd have more small businesses that could only afford low rent and low costs, and perhaps we'd have more residents to create a vibrant and self-supporting economy, if the buildings were actually there. While what I just said certainly does not hold for the city at large, I believe it holds for downtown because the demand for affordable living space is notable there, and I think that my hypothesis can fairly be made. Imagine the period of 2000-2007 when downtown living and retail showed an uptick. Imagine the how we could have created more momentum and gotten to a critical mass if there were simply more places for people to live. Of course there are still notable empty spaces like the Broderick Tower, but that should be seen as a unique case, with another slumlord involved no less. My point: the Ilitch stronghold has gotten in the way of downtown momentum, and he's been the attention whore in taking credit for what momentum we do have, as he's succeeded in making a huge percentage of metro Detroiters think that the stadium projects and the businesses that have sprung up because of them (mostly upscale restaurants and overpriced bars) are motor driving downtown growth. And in fact they are because broad-based growth has been thrown off-kilter because of him.
The only market he's helped is the parking space market.
Another question while I have the time and I'm on this thread: who owns the parking lot directly across from the SW entrance to CoPa (the balance of the block that the Barden Co. building is on)? Is that another Ilitch holding or someone else's. ...what a great block for stadium-view apartments. |
Novine
Member
Username: Novine
Post Number: 1158
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, February 26, 2009 - 7:54 pm: | |
"With any sort of publicity, you'd think that the cost-conscious tax payer (especially these days) would be up in arms about something like this"
But you're forgetting how Illitch has gamed this system. Through the various development areas, much of what Illitch pays in taxes gets funneled right back to him through the DEGC or direct payments. It should be no surprise that DEGC does Illitch's bidding because the tax dollars that they capture for their activities come in part from Illitch's properties. He's managed to get a set up where his tax dollars don't go benefit Detroit as a whole, they benefit Illitch's Empire. Nice work if you can get it. |
Gistok
Member
Username: Gistok
Post Number: 6181
Registered: 08-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, February 26, 2009 - 8:08 pm: | |
The irony of this discussion is how dare Ilitch use taxpayer money to do so and so... and how dare Matty Moroun use his own money to do so and so...  |
Diehard
Member
Username: Diehard
Post Number: 679
Registered: 03-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, February 26, 2009 - 11:49 pm: | |
Well, I just drove past the Grand River building, and it's halfway gone. All lit up, with big gaping holes in the back. Nice that they waited until night to do it. There has to be some significance to that. |
Suburbanbliss
Member
Username: Suburbanbliss
Post Number: 3
Registered: 02-2009
| | Posted on Friday, February 27, 2009 - 12:36 am: | |
The significance is that the proximity of the building to the street requires a lane of traffic be closed. That is why it is usually scheduled at night. |
Reddog289
Member
Username: Reddog289
Post Number: 950
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Friday, February 27, 2009 - 5:15 am: | |
Maybe my last post for awhile,I think that while alot of buildings in the city could be and should be saved, money wins out almost allways.Mike and Matty got it.If they tear down the buildings, present and future generations will say "What were they thinking?"Yet with the way things are it makes sense to rip down a building for parking etc.I would have loved to see the city of Wayne before urban renewal hit. But Hey $$ talks.ALOT OF BUILDINGS in the city do need to go bye-bye, simple fact.Alot could stay,But if a private, public, non -profit group does not have nor want to spend the money then what happens happens. |
Wolverine
Member
Username: Wolverine
Post Number: 601
Registered: 04-2004
| | Posted on Friday, February 27, 2009 - 5:54 am: | |
I don't think that Fine Arts facade will be saved. It's already bowing inward into that huge 5 story vortex in the center of the building. They are playing jenga with very large machinery |
J_stone
Member
Username: J_stone
Post Number: 185
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, February 27, 2009 - 11:10 am: | |
Almost always sad..
|
Suburbanbliss
Member
Username: Suburbanbliss
Post Number: 4
Registered: 02-2009
| | Posted on Friday, February 27, 2009 - 11:30 am: | |
I actually looked at this building when it was for sale for $25,000 nearly 18 years ago. Even then it was in terrible condition and suffered from many well intentioned remuddlings. This particular structure is not much of a loss to the historic fabric of Detroit. The real loss was the Italianate building next to it which was demolished without a peep from preservationists. Illich was not responsible for that demo which left that block with one rather crappy, nondescript building. This property will not remain a surface parking lot forever. |
J_stone
Member
Username: J_stone
Post Number: 186
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, February 27, 2009 - 12:58 pm: | |
Would love to see a pic of that building Suburbanbliss. I've often wondered what that block use to look like. |
Russix
Member
Username: Russix
Post Number: 195
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Friday, February 27, 2009 - 1:25 pm: | |
Does the city hold blueprints for buildings after they've been demolished? |
Otter
Member
Username: Otter
Post Number: 635
Registered: 12-2007
| | Posted on Friday, February 27, 2009 - 2:07 pm: | |
J_stone, what is the intersection in the photo above? I can't figure it out.
O. |
Gsgeorge
Member
Username: Gsgeorge
Post Number: 743
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Friday, February 27, 2009 - 2:34 pm: | |
How utterly stupid. I was gonna go take a drive by there but I can't get myself to do it... Too sad. Another potentially viable building lost.
(Message edited by gsgeorge on February 27, 2009) |
Fury13
Member
Username: Fury13
Post Number: 2086
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, February 27, 2009 - 2:36 pm: | |
"This property will not remain a surface parking lot forever."
Uhhh, yes it will. This is Detroit, remember? If the Madison-Lenox site (a much better location) is destined to be a parking lot -- and it is -- this location is surely doomed for a similar fate. |
Gistok
Member
Username: Gistok
Post Number: 6182
Registered: 08-2004
| | Posted on Friday, February 27, 2009 - 2:41 pm: | |
Fury13, supposedly the M-L demo money was a "loan" that had to be paid back if nothing else got built on the M-L site within say 5 years (can't remember the exact number).
Of course, between building on the M-L site and building something behind the Fine Arts facade... I'm not holding my breath... |
Christos
Member
Username: Christos
Post Number: 141
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Friday, February 27, 2009 - 3:07 pm: | |
2030 Grand River was once the home of "Mad" Mike Bank's underground Detroit Techno empire that included the legendary record label "Underground Resistance" and his distribution company, "Submerge."
Of course, they now moved and "those who know" know where too, but yeah- 2030 Grand River was a legendary place. |
Christos
Member
Username: Christos
Post Number: 142
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Friday, February 27, 2009 - 3:13 pm: | |
2030 Grand River was once the home of "Mad" Mike Bank's underground Detroit Techno empire that included the legendary record label "Underground Resistance" and his distribution company, "Submerge."
Of course, they now moved and "those who know" know where too, but yeah- 2030 Grand River was a legendary place. |
Charlottepaul
Member
Username: Charlottepaul
Post Number: 2655
Registered: 10-2006
| | Posted on Friday, February 27, 2009 - 3:20 pm: | |
"The Fine Arts/Adams Theatre Building’s façade will remain as part of an agreement with the city’s Historic District Commission. Olympia will pick up the tab for the estimated $500,000 façade stabilization, Beal said."
http://www.crainsdetroit.com/a rticle/20081211/FREE/812119975
They tried that with a small two-story facade in Charlotte here. Didn't work out too well on the first windy night. My guess is that the Fine Arts/Adams Theatre Building’s façade won't be braced too well and just happen to fall down. |
J_stone
Member
Username: J_stone
Post Number: 187
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, February 27, 2009 - 5:23 pm: | |
Elizabeth and Grand River - Otter |
3rdworldcity
Member
Username: 3rdworldcity
Post Number: 1344
Registered: 01-2005
| | Posted on Friday, February 27, 2009 - 5:54 pm: | |
2030 Grand River was purchased 10 years or so ago for $15,000. It sold to Ilitch in 2007 for $1,600,000, $234/sq. ft. (.17 of an acre.)
Ilitch has more in mind for the area than parking at those prices (that sale may have been the highest ever paid per sq ft in Detroit.) |
Mackinaw
Member
Username: Mackinaw
Post Number: 4394
Registered: 02-2005
| | Posted on Friday, February 27, 2009 - 8:03 pm: | |
Thank you for the photo, Jstone. I am very depressed. What a watse of a building. What a waste of a city. |
Detx
Member
Username: Detx
Post Number: 267
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Friday, February 27, 2009 - 8:28 pm: | |
Christos,
I don't need to know where, but are UR still in Detroit? |
Pcm
Member
Username: Pcm
Post Number: 13
Registered: 01-2009
| | Posted on Friday, February 27, 2009 - 8:59 pm: | |
Pretty convenient that there's a big 'ol fire at Sibley and Park right now. |
3rdworldcity
Member
Username: 3rdworldcity
Post Number: 1346
Registered: 01-2005
| | Posted on Friday, February 27, 2009 - 11:05 pm: | |
Rjlj: No, I was not part of the Citadel Group. I've ever heard of it. Sorry I missed your post above; someone just pointed it out to me. |
Leannam1989
Member
Username: Leannam1989
Post Number: 202
Registered: 06-2008
| | Posted on Saturday, February 28, 2009 - 12:16 am: | |
"Pretty convenient that there's a big 'ol fire at Sibley and Park right now."
The commercial building here on the corner?
Appears to be the only building at this corner.
http://tinyurl.com/cf2pt9 |
Gsgeorge
Member
Username: Gsgeorge
Post Number: 744
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, February 28, 2009 - 1:20 am: | |
No, the building that burned was one of two old Victorian homes on Sibley, some of the last remaining pieces of the old neighborhood that once stood there, west of Woodward, basically Lower Cass/old Brush Park. The house was abandoned, and last time I drove by it also was Wide Open -- homeless must have set the fire trying to stay warm. The house next to it, which was possibly occupied, has been severely damaged, and currently has no door. A tragic loss.
http://tinyurl.com/apn2u2
2030 Grand River is gone -- just a pile of scrap metal now. Barely looks like there was a building there.
The windows are gone on the large white warehouse structure on Elizabeth just down the block and the machines wait nearby.
I feel like I'm repeating myself here, but this place is disappearing before our very eyes. |
Drm
Member
Username: Drm
Post Number: 361
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, February 28, 2009 - 9:09 am: | |
Hey 3rdworldcity, I didn't know if you saw the "Abandoned Building on Bagley" thread but I'm wondering if you know what your buddy Tony Pieroni's next step will be regarding the old AAA building now that he's lost his appeal. It sure would be nice to see something done with that building. Maybe you or Gistok can get a message to him. Thanks. |
Rjlj
Member
Username: Rjlj
Post Number: 809
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, February 28, 2009 - 10:34 am: | |
Yes, UR are still in Detroit. They rehabbed a building a few years ago.
3rdworldcity, I did a Deed search when I was in high school in the mid 1990's on the GAR and only came up with a land contact deal between the city and this group called the citadel group. The building was sold cheap, I forgot how much, I would have to find that paperwork. |
Gistok
Member
Username: Gistok
Post Number: 6183
Registered: 08-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, February 28, 2009 - 2:23 pm: | |
I got an email from Tony on Thursday. He was informed of the thread (he was unavailable). He's disappointed with the legal outcome, and is mulling his options, legal and otherwise. |
56packman
Member
Username: 56packman
Post Number: 2429
Registered: 12-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, February 28, 2009 - 2:53 pm: | |
So Frank sold the parking garage at Elizabeth and Clifford? (Quality storage) That old girl was built, it will put up a fight. |
1kielsondrive
Member
Username: 1kielsondrive
Post Number: 921
Registered: 08-2008
| | Posted on Saturday, February 28, 2009 - 3:15 pm: | |
Christos, correct. I'll always remember that building for it's two most recent incarnations - the Detroit Engineering Institute (referred to as the DEI building), Underground Resistance and Happy Records and it's record store. Mad Mike moved UR and Happy records long ago to another building on the Boulevard. Most recently, Dennis of Nikki's Pizza owned the building. I'm assuming he sold it to whomever, to be demolished. |
3rdworldcity
Member
Username: 3rdworldcity
Post Number: 1347
Registered: 01-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, February 28, 2009 - 9:26 pm: | |
I can't add anything to Gistok's post re the Bagley building.
Dennis Keffalinos did own 2030 Grand River and he sold it to an Ilitch entity for $1.6 mil.
Re: the GAR: I and my friends made a run for it in the '80s. The land contract vendee was a sole practitioner architect whose name escapes me; his office was on Adams west of what is now Chelios (sp?). The guy ended up on the design team for Comerica Park as a "consultant." Shortly thereafter Ilitch made a deal with the City for both the GAR and the Tuller site. The GAR deal "closed" but the deed was never recorded probably as a result of the DAR claims but I don't know that for a fact. I never heard of the Citadel Group and don't know where it fitted in to the chain of title other than it must have acquired its interest after Ilitch relinquished his interest. Actually, the Citadel Group may have had an option on the building and was a party to the DAR lawsuit. I have all those pleadings somewhere. I do not believe it ever had title to the GAR. |
Leannam1989
Member
Username: Leannam1989
Post Number: 206
Registered: 06-2008
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 04, 2009 - 4:20 am: | |
Question for you Detroiters:
If Illitch builds a new Hockey arena Downtown, which should pump some revenue into Downtown, are the demolitions worth it?
Just wondering. |
Lmichigan
Member
Username: Lmichigan
Post Number: 4213
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 04, 2009 - 5:44 am: | |
How would it "pump some revenue into Downtown" when the team is already downtown to begin with? And, by 'some revenue' I'm talking about something beyond the increase that would come from adding box seats. If the other stadiums were barely worth (if worth at all) taking the street grid, how can an arena for a team already downtown be an improvement? |
Wpitonya
Member
Username: Wpitonya
Post Number: 86
Registered: 08-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 04, 2009 - 9:30 am: | |
A new JL behind the Fox would secure Park Ave. as a good bar district. Then the present JL could be leveled and the riverfront property sold. That riverfront property is too valuable for an ugly hockey arena with no windows. If they didn't level it, could they somehow incorporate it into the Cobo plan? |
Stosh
Member
Username: Stosh
Post Number: 76
Registered: 01-2009
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 04, 2009 - 9:50 am: | |
I'd think that would probably be the plan. Lack of talk about the future of JLA and no re-up of the contracts Ilitch has probably indicates that a deal is coming for a new Olympia stadium in Foxtown. It would not be impossible to reuse the JLA as exhibition space or convention hall, just expensive. |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 4489
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 04, 2009 - 10:09 am: | |
quote:A new JL behind the Fox would secure Park Ave. as a good bar district.
Woo hoo! Just $300 million to secure Park Ave. as a bar district! Let me guess--Mike Ilitch would fund the whole thing out of his own pocket, right? |
1kielsondrive
Member
Username: 1kielsondrive
Post Number: 967
Registered: 08-2008
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 04, 2009 - 10:14 am: | |
Regardless of any discussions we're having about a new arena, prepare to pay for a large chunk of it out of our pockets, fans or no. Illitch's WILL get huge tax rebates/returns/abatements/inc entives, WITF you care to call it. Our money will pave their way, even in dire economic times. |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 4491
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 04, 2009 - 10:16 am: | |
^^^And then will the City pay Ilitch millions of dollars to maintain Joe Lous Arena while it falls to shit, and then pay millions more to demolish it after turning down every potential re-use of the building and waiting for 10 years? |
321brian
Member
Username: 321brian
Post Number: 619
Registered: 02-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 04, 2009 - 10:22 am: | |
JLA is on an island. Some people may go to Greektown, The Anchor, The Post or Cobo Joes but most just park downtown.
At least those parking lots everyone around here hate so much force people to at least walk by local businesses. It is up to the business owner to get them in.
A new hockey arena downtown wherever it is build will probably bring at least 90 days (41 regular season hockey + playoffs + pre-season, + concerts and other events) of 15,000+ people to the area.
Again, what local businesses choose to do with those people is up to them.
A new arena will also compete with and take business away from The Palace for events that just default to The Palace now because it is such a superior facility.
No Illich won't pay for much of it himself but I think a good deal would be for Illich to pay half the cost of the arena and the city or county or whoever funds it match it's contribution to the arena with a fund for local businesses to improve and start up money for new businesses. |
Gistok
Member
Username: Gistok
Post Number: 6193
Registered: 08-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 04, 2009 - 11:34 am: | |
If Ilitch builds a new hockey arena, JLA will be torn down for future Cobo expansion.
It was a piece crap when it was built in the 1970's (it's skin has all the charm of a pole barn with that corregated metal)... and it's still a piece of crap today!
And its' anemities are so poor, that about 80% of the larger stage shows go out to the Palace of Auburn Hills (thus leaving JLA in the dark during much of the year). Currently, as some have said... the privately owned Palace is a superior facility, compared to city owned JLA.
Yes I'm sure that a new hockey arena will try to get as much public funding as possible (just like every other arena/stadium in the country).
And then there's things like naming rights, and perhaps a Tax Incremental Finance District (TIFA) to help defray the costs.
But the current JLA has had absolutely no spin off business activity downtown (besides restaurant shuttle vans). It's in such an isolated (from other businesses) location away from everything.
Good riddance to it... |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 4492
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 04, 2009 - 11:42 am: | |
quote:But the current JLA has had absolutely no spin off business activity downtown (besides restaurant shuttle vans). It's in such an isolated (from other businesses) location away from everything.
If you want to "spin-off" businesses, $300 million buys a lot of bars and restuarants--if you give that money to bars and resturants. |
321brian
Member
Username: 321brian
Post Number: 621
Registered: 02-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 04, 2009 - 11:50 am: | |
But $300 million doesn't bring people downtown.
If you want to give $300 million to people give it to people who want to move downtown.
That will create a base of customers for X business. |
Novine
Member
Username: Novine
Post Number: 1182
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 04, 2009 - 12:57 pm: | |
"... perhaps a Tax Incremental Finance District (TIFA) to help defray the costs."
Too bad in a time of declining property values, there's no "incremental" to capture additional dollars. There's no doubt that Illitch will push for every public dollar he can funnel into his pockets. Look at his track record for the past 25 years. |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 4493
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 04, 2009 - 1:14 pm: | |
quote:But $300 million doesn't bring people downtown.
So people only go out to eat, or to have a drink, if they're going to a hockey game?
I argue on the front of bar/restaurant creation, because that is certainly what will be used to justify spending public money on a new arena. If the desired outcome is more bars and restaurants, $300 million would buy somewhere between 60 and 150 new establishments. Look around, and see if Comerica Park, Ford Field, and the three casinos have "spun off" this much investment.
With that said, there are many "nightlife districts" in other cities that exist on the premise of eating out and drinking--no $300 million hockey arena required. |
Sciencefair
Member
Username: Sciencefair
Post Number: 148
Registered: 10-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, March 05, 2009 - 9:47 am: | |
FYI: The Chin Tiki will most likely be leveled by Monday. I talked with one of the Beal gents this morning, he said it would be gone in a couple days. |
Detroitplanner
Member
Username: Detroitplanner
Post Number: 2262
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, March 05, 2009 - 10:04 am: | |
I'd agree with DC Dan. Look at the impact have the Motor City Casino has on Carls. Nada zilch. You would need to build the place in a way in which it would generate spinoff business. Any person building something is inheirently going to build it in a way to capture as many of those dollars as possible.
The Palace is a nice facility, but it has fewer spin-offs than anything downtown would. It is a self-contained facility. It is also developed with 100 percent private dollars. Should a new JLA be built with the same financing, would you expect any spin offs? probably not, unless it is built to spin off into already Illitch Controlled venues such as Motor City, Fox, or Hockeytown. Like the Palace, everything will be built in a way to discourage people from parking elsewhere or even walking to the facility.
It is because of this I never understood why govt would participate so actively in the construction of large entertainment facilities to begin with. Seems like a folly. |
Wpitonya
Member
Username: Wpitonya
Post Number: 87
Registered: 08-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, March 05, 2009 - 10:28 am: | |
Illitch should get into the residential business like he said he was going to...then promoting residences around the new stadia/arena would promote spinoff businesses (think Wrigleyville or around Fenway). He has/had a great opportunity to build a neighborhood back there. Too bad for the demolitions b/c old mixed with new could have been done fairly well back there. |
Billk
Member
Username: Billk
Post Number: 209
Registered: 09-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, March 05, 2009 - 2:54 pm: | |
Is the Chin Tiki the next to go down? This afternoon there were workers removing fluorescent light fixtures from the building, and a building-eater parked next door. |
Gravitymachine
Member
Username: Gravitymachine
Post Number: 1741
Registered: 05-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, March 05, 2009 - 3:03 pm: | |
quote:FYI: The Chin Tiki will most likely be leveled by Monday. I talked with one of the Beal gents this morning, he said it would be gone in a couple days.
look three posts up.
what a waste.
also, a friend of a friend had a loft in 2030 grand river about 9 years ago, it was a sweet place. |
Billk
Member
Username: Billk
Post Number: 210
Registered: 09-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, March 05, 2009 - 3:08 pm: | |
Sorry, I missed that. |
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