  Detroitus Member Username: Detroitus Post Number: 1 Registered: 02-2009 |
Hi All, Long time reader, first time comment. Thanks to everyone on this forum. As an ex-detroiter I've always appreciated the news and debates found here. I heard Bill Ayers speak in S.F last week with his wife Bernadine Dohrn and he spoke quite a bit about his recent visit to Detroit. In particular he talked about how Detroit activist refer to Detroit as the future, as in as Detroit goes, the rest of the country will eventually follow. Though I recognized a lot of truth in that, one of the things that always strikes me and other ex-detroiters about the city and the area is how it is stuck in the past, constantly debating the decisions and mistakes of yesterday and fighting the same old battles. Be it economics, racial and ethnic issues, or the endless battle between the city against the suburbs there seems to be no end and reconciliation. I think the Cobo mess demonstrates this well. When asked about how it was growing up in detroit and the suburbs I often say it was like coming of age after the gold rush, with all the older people talking about the past and the glory days of Detroit. Basically the line of thinking was Detroit might be awful now but it once was glorious. Though I recognize there was some truth in it people generally se the past through rose colored glasses; nostagial for a past that never really existed. Henry Ford said "history is bunk" and I think he meant that history only tells you what has happen so far. Unless you're willing to leave the past in the past you can never go forward. I hate to say it but the rest of the country continues to leave Detroit behind, be less crime, better housing, better jobs and good public services like a working mass transit system. But if Detroit is the future it doesn't bode well for any of us. Just some food for thought. | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 5352 Registered: 06-2004 |
Henry Ford said 'history is bunk' because it was, and still tends to be, written about via the lives of the rich, famous, and/or powerful and doesn't reflect the reality of the common man. New York and LA are akin to the famous and powerful. Detroit is the common man. We know that. Ayers apparently recognizes that. But most others are still blinded by glitter. | ||
Russix Member Username: Russix Post Number: 194 Registered: 11-2006 |
“When everything seems to be going against you, remember that the airplane takes off against the wind, not with it.” - Henry Ford | ||
Eastsideal Member Username: Eastsideal Post Number: 357 Registered: 10-2007 |
Having lived elsewhere in the country and the world, including San Francisco, before returning to Detroit I am struck by the same thing. How much the world seems to have passed Detroit by. Detroit is not so much the country's future, as the bastard child of its past. While other cities and metropolitan areas have moved on, Detroit seems to be still stuck in the urban attitudes, arguments, and problems of the 1960s to '80s period. In many ways it stands as an object lesson of what happens when a place becomes completely wrapped up in past hate and suspicion, and fails to progress. From race (the big one) to deindustrialization to economic development to transit to regional cooperation, almost nothing seems to have changed much here in 30 years or more. Instead, the same nostalgic bile-filled fiddling of 'YOU ruined it' 'no YOU ruined it' continues over and over, as all the while Rome burns and is abandoned by its residents and its economy. We've even increasingly been left behind by once-inferior similar cities like Pittsburgh or Cleveland, as they have moved towards and largely embraced a post-industrial progressive urbanism. While we sit, still seething at one another over who's responsible for the riot or Hudson's closing down, or the state of our old neighborhood, and still waiting for Chrysler to start hiring for some of those gooood jobs again. So the decay and destruction that hit most of urban America in the '70s - very much including places like NYC and SF - has never been addressed and arrested here as it was elsewhere, and has continued pretty much unabated for nearly 4 decades. Detroit may be an object lesson of what can go wrong in other American cities, particularly in hard times, but with a few exceptions it is not really representative of what's going on in most of urban America today. | ||
Charlottepaul Member Username: Charlottepaul Post Number: 2654 Registered: 10-2006 |
It IS really funny. Detroiters (and especially those on this web site) keep thinking that THIS YEAR or THIS NEXT year Detroit will finally turn the corner and be on the rebound. As an ex-Detroiter (now for two-and-a-half years), the further that I leave Detroit behind, the more likely I think that Detroit will never turn around. The further away that you step back and look at Detroit from a distance, the more you realize how deep of a hole Detroit is in. | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 5353 Registered: 06-2004 |
It's kind of like employers offering buyouts before resorting to layoffs - all those with shitty, uncommitted attitudes leave first. | ||
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge Post Number: 9497 Registered: 10-2003 |
Oh snap. | ||
Charlottepaul Member Username: Charlottepaul Post Number: 2656 Registered: 10-2006 |
Can ya blame me for Detroit's mistakes? | ||
Barbara_10 Member Username: Barbara_10 Post Number: 21 Registered: 08-2008 |
Detroitus: "Basically the line of thinking was Detroit might be awful now but it once was glorious. Though I recognize there was some truth in it people generally se the past through rose colored glasses; nostagial for a past that never really existed." I take exception. I was born and raised in Detroit in the 30's,40's and 50's. It was a great city and a great childhood. My glasses are clear. I haven't set foot south of 8 Mile since 1980, and I don't plan to unless I have a death wish. (Message edited by Barbara_10 on February 27, 2009) | ||
Charlottepaul Member Username: Charlottepaul Post Number: 2657 Registered: 10-2006 |
Lilpup/Johnlodge--Don't worry. Go ahead; poor some ••••••••• on. That only bothered me when I DID care about Detroit, but now I can take it. | ||
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge Post Number: 9498 Registered: 10-2003 |
All I said was "Oh snap". On the other hand: quote: May deserve further comment. | ||
Detroitus Member Username: Detroitus Post Number: 2 Registered: 02-2009 |
Barbara_10 you remind me of so many of my parents friends growing up who bragged that they hadn't step a foot into the city in 20 years. I thought it was a hick and pitiful comment then and I think it now. BTW, of all the people I knew who blamed the cities problems on the "67 riots I knew none who felt the same disgust for or even knew of the "43 riots. Many people in the Bay area have problems with S.F. but almost all still see it as the jewel in the crown and support it as such. If only Detroit got the same support from the suburbs. Maybe it would help in the area had a truth and reconciliation committee like South Africa. | ||
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies Post Number: 1657 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: Actually it is exactly the opposite. All the people who have valuable transferrable skills and know they can quickly find new employment leave first. All the slugs who couldn't buy a new job are left behind. People who demand loyalty from there employers are usually the slugs who should be fired. | ||
Eastsideal Member Username: Eastsideal Post Number: 358 Registered: 10-2007 |
quote: Exhibit A. | ||
Barbara_10 Member Username: Barbara_10 Post Number: 22 Registered: 08-2008 |
Detroitus: "Barbara_10 you remind me of so many of my parents friends growing up who bragged that they hadn't step a foot into the city in 20 years. I thought it was a hick and pitiful comment then and I think it now. BTW, of all the people I knew who blamed the cities problems on the "67 riots I knew none who felt the same disgust for or even knew of the "43 riots." I wasn't bragging, I was complaining that my city is in ashes. BTW I don't blame the riots. I blame Coleman A Young. | ||
Eastsideal Member Username: Eastsideal Post Number: 360 Registered: 10-2007 |
It's fascinating that sometimes you post something and someone comes along immediately and says something seemingly just to prove your point. Coleman Young has been out of office for 16 years, and dead for 11. Next. | ||
Charlottepaul Member Username: Charlottepaul Post Number: 2658 Registered: 10-2006 |
It's only when you take a few steps back that you see Detroit's hole. Instead of debating on fixes for Detroit, my "urban goal" in life now is to prevent other cities from making the same mistakes. | ||
Barbara_10 Member Username: Barbara_10 Post Number: 23 Registered: 08-2008 |
Brilliant, Sherlock. His garbage is still there or haven't you noticed? | ||
Detroitrise Member Username: Detroitrise Post Number: 3817 Registered: 09-2007 |
Eastsideal and JohnLodge, now you see why I have my feelings about suburbanites.  I know all of them aren't like that, but one apple certainly spoils the bunch. | ||
Eastsideal Member Username: Eastsideal Post Number: 362 Registered: 10-2007 |
quote: No, I haven't. All I've noticed is a troubled city in a metropolitan area with deep problems where instead of working together to change and improve things for everyone, as other cities have done, people just snipe at each other with endless hate and resentments from 20+ years ago. But then that's what this thread was about. Thank you for providing us with such a great living object lesson. | ||
Alsodave Member Username: Alsodave Post Number: 743 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: Didn't know trash pickup was that slow... | ||
Detroithabitater Member Username: Detroithabitater Post Number: 195 Registered: 10-2006 |
I'm going to go check out www.CharlotteYes.com Anyone coming with me? | ||
English Member Username: English Post Number: 471 Registered: 10-2003 |
"BTW, of all the people I knew who blamed the cities problems on the "67 riots I knew none who felt the same disgust for or even knew of the "43 riots." Of course not. My grandfather, a Brewster Old Timer, was around for the 1943 riots. He says that one made '67 look like a walk in the park. (I also learned from him the untold story of Mayor Jeffries' opinions about certain groups of people.) Barbara's Detroit and my family's Detroit were evidently two different places... even though my grandparents' home was featured in the Pulitzer Prize-winning story about the riots in LIFE magazine. Even though my family's been here since before the Armistice and the Red Summer... on the very leading edge of the Great Migration. The tragedy of twentieth century Detroit ought to be called "A Tale of Two Cities". Sigh... some of us have been in America for hundreds of years, and in Detroit for a century. Still not real Americans or real Detroiters, I guess. | ||
Jayjoejee Member Username: Jayjoejee Post Number: 4 Registered: 02-2009 |
Personally I wasn't born in Detroit and came out here a couple years ago from San Diego, so I don't know or have the same stories that a lot of you have about this city. I will say that now living in Detroit I find that Detroitus’ comment was spot on about a lot of Detroiter’s in general living in the past; as evidenced from many posts on here. One thing I did find exists here but mostly in the younger generation (born in the late 70’s and 80’s) is a sense of optimism that isn’t tied to the cities past. They’ve never seen it in the glory days and only know how it is now. A lot of these people are the artists, the entrepreneurs, and the new business owners around here, and most of them are from other cities like Boston, New York, Los Angeles and San Fran. Ask them what they think of Detroit and they'll tell you that they came here (and are still here), not because of what it was, but because it's cheaper and has potential. Not everyone sees it. I personally like it for its grittiness and friendly people, but realize that good jobs are hard to find and the winter weather out here is horrible. Neither of these helps the situation. | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 5354 Registered: 06-2004 |
quote: If that's true why do the companies offer buyouts instead of just terminating the slugs for poor performance? (in the white collar cubes, that is) | ||
Supersport Member Username: Supersport Post Number: 2598 Registered: 10-2003 |
I love living in Detroit because I know people like Barbara_10 WON'T step foot south of 8 mile. Consider Detroit a safe haven from the closed minded folks. | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 3834 Registered: 04-2006 |
I agree about the Detroit area being stuck in the past. | ||
Mwilbert Member Username: Mwilbert Post Number: 513 Registered: 11-2007 |
Something like Detroit is a possible future for the US; undereducated people living in decaying infrastructure while other places continue progressing. I'm kind of hoping that isn't the actual future. | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 5355 Registered: 06-2004 |
While Detroit might have less education on average than some other places it really doesn't matter when even educated people, especially the scientists and engineers politicians falsely claim are in demand, can't find jobs. This country needs to recover and be retrained from this recent era of the MBA and get back to the fundamental economic wealth creating foundation of agriculture, extraction, construction, manufacturing, and the affiliated transportation if it's to continue functioning as a sovereign nation. | ||
Macknwarren Member Username: Macknwarren Post Number: 135 Registered: 10-2007 |
The most questionable of all things Barbara_10 wrote is she blames Coleman Young for Detroit's situation. God knows anyone who stays in office for 20 years has plenty of sins. But Barb, look at your beautiful city before Young took office in 1974: Detroit's white population fell by 350,000 in the 1950s alone. The suburbs blossomed after the war; Northland and Eastland opened in the mid-1950s. Tens of thousands of Detroit's manufacturing jobs disappeared before Young came along. Jerry Cavanagh had to institute the city income tax in the early 1960s because Detroit was having such severe revenue problems. Coleman Young can't be held responsible for the devastating riot. That happened seven years before he got to city hall. Do you want to blame him for the Mideast oil boycott? That had a heavy impact on Detroit, and it took place a few months after Young took office. I think it's better to look at the city Young inherited as one that was in serious to critical condition and then analyze what he did. | ||
Themax Member Username: Themax Post Number: 845 Registered: 09-2005 |
lilpup wrote:While Detroit might have less education on average than some other places it really doesn't matter when even educated people, especially the scientists and engineers politicians falsely claim are in demand, can't find jobs. This country needs to recover and be retrained from this recent era of the MBA and get back to the fundamental economic wealth creating foundation of agriculture, extraction, construction, manufacturing, and the affiliated transportation if it's to continue functioning as a sovereign nation. The problem is we're competing with the third world. | ||
Rickinatlanta Member Username: Rickinatlanta Post Number: 266 Registered: 07-2006 |
Barbara, "haven't set foot south of 8 Mile since 1980, and I don't plan to unless I have a death wish." You sound exactly like my older cousin and his wife who live in Macomb. When my wife and I visit the old homestead, we always stay downtown. This last visit in December we stayed at the Book Cadillac and my cousin and wife came down to spend a Saturday afternoon and night with us. My cousin made a crack of needing to bring a gun with him along with other disparaging comments about downtown. Well we had a great time with drinks in the Motor Bar, toured the Book, then dinner at Fishbones. I called them the next day to tell them what a great time we had and offered that on our next visit we'd come out to Macomb to see them. He immediately said no because they loved it so much being downtown that they'd come BACK down to do the same thing again. They were amazed at how much it's improved. Point being that you might want to give it a try again since you haven't been done in almost 30 years? | ||
Vetalalumni Member Username: Vetalalumni Post Number: 1307 Registered: 05-2007 |
Spent the first half of my life in Detroit. Followed my dreams and aspirations and evolved myself in a different region. I love what Detroit represents, which is me. I claim it. It is my heritage. I was saddened that following my best dreams pulled me away. My children now have a reality void of my feelings and emotions related to Detroit. They are awestruck when my wife or I show and tell them our experiences in the motor. Foreign to them. But in an odd way, they get it. I don't deny loving Detroit. Maybe I was not creative enough to find a way to fulfil my dreams and stay in Detroit at the same time. Many relatives and friends remain in the city and metropolitan area. They don't hate on me for leaving. They know I did not spit on Detroit when I left or since. God Bless the people of Detroit. | ||
Living_in_the_d Member Username: Living_in_the_d Post Number: 333 Registered: 01-2008 |
Yeah, My Forum Name pretty much sums it up for Me. Nuff Said. | ||
Detroitus Member Username: Detroitus Post Number: 3 Registered: 02-2009 |
" I love what Detroit represents, which is me. I claim it. It is my heritage." We are all products of push and pull factors way beyond our control. Like many others I am a product of the Detroit automotive past. My grandfather came north to work at Ford (oops, I mean Ford's) in the 20s. And like many other I left in my 20s for a better life elsewhere. I still think Detroit is The American City, where the best and worst of our country over the last century has been magnified a hundred fold. And like countless other members of the Detroit Diaspora still curse the Lions when they lose and raise a toast when the Wings win it all and will always be proud to call Detroit my home town. But until Detroit Detroit stops living in the past and takes a step into the future I doubt I'll ever return. | ||
English Member Username: English Post Number: 475 Registered: 10-2003 |
"Detroit's white population fell by 350,000 in the 1950s alone. The suburbs blossomed after the war; Northland and Eastland opened in the mid-1950s. Tens of thousands of Detroit's manufacturing jobs disappeared before Young came along. Jerry Cavanagh had to institute the city income tax in the early 1960s because Detroit was having such severe revenue problems." Right! Again, I knew this story because of my grandparents. My grandmother was an Adlai Stevenson voter precisely because she talked about the decline of manufacturing jobs... in the 1950s!!! "So many men were losing their jobs in the plants..." And I kept asking, "In the fifties?" "Yes." "IN THE FIFTIES???" *glare* LOL! Each era has its own pressures and challenges. The D's has had a lot of problems over the past 50-60 years, and we reminisce about our heyday. But I don't see us as any different from the Western towns that were booming in the 19th century, and spent most of the 20th empty and devastated due to ECONOMIC changes. The only difference is that (fortunately) there weren't enough people who looked like me and the majority of current Detroiters to blame things on. I figure that people who despair about Detroit's long-term future don't have enough historical knowledge. There is the short-term historical narrative colored by selective nostalgia ("Detroit was paradise until those Black people rioted in '67, and it's been sh-- ever since"), but when someone says that I just sigh and chalk it up to not knowing very much about the nearly 308 year history of our beloved city. There are short-term cycles, and there are longer cycles. Will Detroit rebound within the next 20 years? Maybe not. Would I put money on it rebounding somewhat by midcentury? You betcha. There are too many factors (i.e. climate change, peak oil, water, and proximity to Canada) that make this an awesome place to live. Concentrating our population in the Sun Belt is not a viable long-term national socioeconomic strategy. Repeating for the slow folks: Concentrating our population in the Sun Belt is not a viable long-term national socioeconomic strategy. Of course, maybe I'm wrong, and 1000 years from now, Detroit will be reclaimed by the Michigan swamps and forests. But so what? There are plenty of cities whose fame resonates through the ages, and are no more. If our fate is to be Carthage, Pompeii or even something more obscure, so be it. Maybe some future archaeologist will dig up the "time capsules" my sisters and I buried in our westside backyard... and marvel. | ||
Buzzman0077 Member Username: Buzzman0077 Post Number: 199 Registered: 11-2006 |
I have kind of been going through some type of this argument recently with my parents. My wife and I have decided to move to Detroit when we come back in the spring. My parents who for years, I proudly proclaimed as Detroit supporters, have shown their true colors. We grew up in the suburbs, but often came downtown for the museums, Belle Isle, and sports. I always thought it was because my parents were enlightened enough to realize that entering the city was not a death wish. What I have found out is that they were dragged by our neighbors, and still have a great fear of the city. I don't really know how to change these impressions. I get angry that they speak to me as if I have no understanding of the risks involved with living in the city (despite that I'm nearly 30, and have lived in a troubled area of Kansas City for 4 years). They state that things will never change. I reply that they won't if everybody continues to believe that. I think that if enough people on their own make an effort to improve some small protion of the city that eventually the collective effort will revive the city. They respond that it's not worth the risks to make that kind of effort, and to leave it to somebody else. I respond with what hope do we have if good people do nothing? It's been a painful couple month's since we've made this decision. My in-laws are actually worse I just don't have to talk to them about it. We are going through with it, and will be in town in April to check out some places and sign a lease. I just wish this were something that could be reasoned. It seems there are too many prejudices around the issue. | ||
English Member Username: English Post Number: 478 Registered: 10-2003 |
Congratulations, Buzzman0077! May we have a hundred thousand more couples -- and families -- and single householders -- just like you! | ||
Barebain Member Username: Barebain Post Number: 28 Registered: 02-2006 |
I tell this story often, but it is an important one for my larger perspective of living in the city and we seem to be on topic, so I will tell it again. While living in Milwaukee for three years, I worked at Habitat for Humanity (through AmeriCorps) building houses and coordinating volunteers. It was wonderful work that lasted almost three years, and I will never forget my experiences. Now, the Habitat affiliate in Milwaukee was interesting because it had spent the bulk of its 20-odd year existence building within a few square miles in one section of the city. This section had been a relatively rough neighborhood, but one that was still fairly intact with many good neighbors. But, as many who live in the city know, one bad apple can spoil a block, and there was one particular block I always remembered as being particularly rough. As you'd guess... right in the middle of this block sat a pretty obvious drug and prostitution house. The signs were clear: All kinds of people coming and going all day, every day. Mean looking dogs. And my personal favorite, the "No Loitering" sign posted on the porch. Well, one year, Habitat decides to build five houses, all in a row, directly across the street from this place. It was obvious they didn't want us there, but stay there we did, and those houses went up as they did everywhere else in the neighborhood. There were more problems than usual on that block. Nothing major (mostly stolen tools), except for one instance where somebody shot a bullet through the living room of the one of the houses (it was overnight, and nobody was working at the time). Suffice to say, this block was not the most favored of the new homeowners, but they put their hours in, and were still excited to get their new house. So, the more time we spent, the more we realized what was going on in the house across the street. The new homeowners, realizing the problem, started to make calls to the police. Habitat started making calls to the police. The house kept going as it usually did until one day all was quiet. Strangely quiet really. And just as a couple of us were making note of this, we saw this big dude in a tight 'SWAT' t-shirt walk out onto the upper balcony where those mean dogs usually spent their time. The drug house was gone, and we all breathed a sigh of relief. But the most interesting part happened next. Because of the communal struggle of the new homeowners to get rid of the riff raff, they formed an unusually tight bond. Other homeowners saw this and wanted to be a part of it. As Habitat built more homes on that block, including tearing down the old drug house, it suddenly became the most popular block for new homeowners. It happened because people cared. They took responsibility for their surroundings and everybody benefited. Yes, it is just one block. Yes it is an isolated example. But I see it as a hopeful tale for all of us actively trying to pull Detroit out of its complicated past. | ||
Thames Member Username: Thames Post Number: 403 Registered: 02-2007 |
I love that story. | ||
Eastsideal Member Username: Eastsideal Post Number: 365 Registered: 10-2007 |
But first you have to have police who are willing to DO something about obvious neighborhood-ruining crime. | ||
Firstandten Member Username: Firstandten Post Number: 724 Registered: 05-2006 |
I wasn't bragging, I was complaining that my city is in ashes. BTW I don't blame the riots. I blame Coleman A Young" quote Please in the future when you want to discuss the decline of Detroit and there are many,many reasons as to why whats happening to Detroit is happening, it is simplistic and revisionist history to put that on CAY. Now CAY was in office for 5 terms which was probably 2 too many. I think after about 12 years you're done about as much as you can do in a positive sense. The winds of change had already taken root in the city and CAY or no one else was going to change it. |
